Average age of engineers and scientists in the Manhattan Project was 25.
Our current gerontocracy is ahistorical.
Perhaps one reason startups work so well is they are one of the few places that still let young people exert agency.
The average age of NASA’s mission control team during the Apollo era was 27— they put humans on the moon. Young people bring a force of curiosity and creativity that can disrupt the status quo. If we’re serious about cutting waste in gov spending, let’s not turn away new minds.
The guys featured in this gross and irresponsible hit piece by Wired, by all accounts, are brilliant engineers. Top 1%.
- one decoded the Herculaneum Papyrii at the age of 20, winning the Vesuvius Challenge
- another built a startup funded by OpenAI
- one interned at SpaceX and got a Thiel Fellowship
If you take any individual startup its probability of success is very low. Most startups fail. There is a very extreme survivorship bias at work when people say startups work well or that particular tactics are why startups are great etc (pointing at a successful startup).
Startups as a whole produce a lot of innovation because there is this extreme Darwinian process where the vast majority fail and a few succeed but you have a huge amount of risk-taking in parallel in a very compressed time frame.
Government generally doesn’t have the luxury of failure because the consequences for people’s lives are too extreme. So by definition government is going to be slower-moving and more risk-averse. They are essentially paying to reduce the standard deviation of possible outcomes because they can’t afford the risk of the extreme negative tail.
niceice 2 hours ago [-]
Perhaps you don't realize how badly run the government is and how much of a problem that is in real terms.
Education, physical and mental health, cost of living, healthcare, wealth inequality. They've all gotten worse the past few decades, would you agree?
The NYT just reported that the federal government lost $236 billion to apparent fraud ("improper payments") in 2023 alone.
The US GAO says "2018-2022 Data Show Federal Government Loses an Estimated $233 Billion to $521 Billion Annually to Fraud"
This is a small sample of the extreme waste, fraud and abuse, while we have very serious issues here on the ground that are systematically ignored. For DECADES. Unaddressed.
Fixing this is what the majority of voters voted for and are rightfully thrilled to see these brilliant young tech nerds untangle the beurocratic leviathon. There will be, and have been, mistakes, things deleted that shouldn't have been. Anything important and that the people actually want, will be added back in. DOGE was upfront about this process.
amarcheschi 1 hours ago [-]
But doge doesn't want to improve fraud, it only wants to make the department efficients by somehow firing their workers, how does this improve fraud detection?
Furthermore, why should i trust a billionaire who has spouted lies more and more times?
What about data protection? We're giving billionaires and their team access to federal workers data. Project 2025 emphatizes replacing federal workers for loyal one, why shouldn't an american feel threatened by this? https://www.muskwatch.com/p/musk-associates-given-unfettered
And why should i care about saving all these money if the middle class is gonna get screwed with higher taxes?
plorg 40 minutes ago [-]
In fact if you listen to what they actually say, at least half of what they're doing isn't even about efficiency, it's about ideological purity.
kamaal 7 hours ago [-]
>>Government generally doesn’t have the luxury of failure because the consequences for people’s lives are too extreme.
Im guessing they will eventually discover why bureaucracy even exists. That is to move slow enough to ensure big mistakes become impossible and provide stability for newer things to happen at their own pace.
Im guessing any chaos inside bureaucracy for as little as a decade could cause a lost century to a country. The cost of stabilising, course correcting, recovering and then going on upwards could take decades.
wussboy 2 hours ago [-]
Civil society is a precious gift, one that is hard to build and easy to destroy.
alfalfasprout 17 hours ago [-]
First, there's hardly any evidence that these are anywhere near "brilliant engineers" let alone 1%. Their claims to "fame" were being interns or working on tightly scoped greenfield projects. Some might be interesting, sure. But it's hardly relevant to operating in a complex organization.
But more importantly, the real issue is regardless of how old they are an unelected individual is doling out hyper-privileged access to sensitive data to folks without any kind of oversight. It's a total mess.
It's hyperbolic to the n-th degree to call these "the best of nerds" as well.
crooked-v 14 hours ago [-]
> Their claims to "fame" were being interns or working on tightly scoped greenfield projects.
And there's that one guy whose entire work history is as a summer camp counselor.
Government employees are never elected. They are hired by the elected officials. In this case the general public in the US was aware of DOGE before the election and chose to vote for it.
niceice 48 minutes ago [-]
Right. Why are people so confused about this now?
orf 7 hours ago [-]
Where specifically was it spelled out that DODGE would remove the free tax filing system?
thebigspacefuck 3 hours ago [-]
Did they delete it? Elon said 18F, the group that developed DirectFile, was deleted. DirectFile appears to still be available.
Honestly if they were wise as they are with "computer smarts" they would have wanted nothing to do with DOGE
Because I guarantee Elon will throw them first under the bus if anything happens
ban-evader 9 hours ago [-]
Why is that? I would bet large sums of money that these guys will have a bright future ahead of them, much of it because of the goodwill they get from working for DOGE.
chikere232 9 hours ago [-]
It all depends on how persistent the new american system is.
During the WW2 german occupation of France, there were some french people who opted to enthusiastically work to support the german side, and they certainly benefitted short term from the goodwill earned
At the end of the occupation, a lot of them were shot or hanged by the resistance
muddi900 5 hours ago [-]
That is a fantastically chreky comment.
10/10 no notes
nxobject 4 hours ago [-]
You say goodwill, we say “consulting” with companies that have directly benefited from their decisions and will benefit from their connections. Going from high positions in government into the post-government life of consulting and leadership positions is neither new nor indicative of the value of their work.
pharrington 8 hours ago [-]
>I would bet large sums of money that these guys will have a bright future ahead of them, much of it because of the goodwill they get from working for DOGE.
Email me.
raverbashing 9 hours ago [-]
And I reiterated that being good with computers is not a good predictor for how things work in highly-politicized government positions
mschoch 4 hours ago [-]
haha, the goodwill of ending up on a different black list, and never working again
realusername 9 hours ago [-]
Goodwill from whom exactly?
When the shit inevitably hits the fan from the massive amount of orgs they are dismantling, Musk and the DOGE will be used as a political scapegoat by Trump, that's how politics work.
And then from that, taking responsibility has never been Musk strongest point either, he'll push back the blame further to DOGE workers.
4ndrewl 8 hours ago [-]
Forgot the /s
bboygravity 8 hours ago [-]
As he has always done? Source of Elon throwing young engineers under the bus?
Anything to flame Elon another day innit?
llm_trw 8 hours ago [-]
I've come dangerously close to being acquired by one of his companies.
His management style is best described as humiliation and abuse.
Or to put it another way, you can build a lot of pyramids when you use disposable slaves.
raverbashing 8 hours ago [-]
Amazing that people sign up to be verified on Elon's tarpit and they funnily haven't heard anything about how Elon rewarded loyalty and perseverance there (hint: with a boot to the backside)
8 hours ago [-]
exe34 7 hours ago [-]
I don't understand the "unelected" aspect - he funded Trump and Trump got elected. Trump said Elon would get to run a wrecking ball through the ship of state and the magas cheered. He derives his authority from Trump. A lot of people work at the white house and only one of them was elected.
shipscode 3 hours ago [-]
He’s surely the most public bureaucrat in history.
GenerocUsername 2 hours ago [-]
Bureaucrat is a misnomer. Think of him more as a reaper of souls
uni_rule 2 hours ago [-]
He's more of a lobotomized Jack Welch imo
goldenManatee 8 hours ago [-]
I mean, Garry Tan has already been on Twitter with his stupid take that there are “brilliant” so it surely must be true. /s
The Treasury has been taken over and barricaded, but please enlighten us Garry with fables of their 10x brilliance.
2 hours ago [-]
TacticalCoder 10 hours ago [-]
One of the dude literally solved a hundreds years problem and won a prize. He coded an AI to decipher an ancient manuscript AIUI. I certainly wouldn't look down on the achievement of that young programmer.
Klonoar 8 hours ago [-]
None of which qualifies him for anything he’s doing here.
niceice 2 hours ago [-]
Yes it does. He knows how to solve hard problems. Ending the vaste waste, fraud and abuse is a huge spagetti code problem.
doctorwho42 4 minutes ago [-]
So would you say that the first step of detangling spaghetti code is to start deleting huge chunks of it without knowing what it does or why it was coded that way?
There is no control-z in physical systems, especially ones that rely on human constructs and tradition
dekhn 2 hours ago [-]
To Actually fix the embedded structural problems of an established system requires at least as much wisdom as intelligence. So far I have not seen Elon and his young minions demonstrating deep levels of wisdom
Pat_Murph 6 minutes ago [-]
You are being impressed by irrelevant credentials.
This is what tools people into a sens of confidence while totally misplaced.
he is not helping to solve hard problems or deal with corruption.
He is aiding in destroying democracy and enabling corruption and collusion.
You have it backwards.
babycheetahbite 2 hours ago [-]
What would constitute qualifications in your view?
doctorwho42 6 minutes ago [-]
Advanced knowledge of the inner workings of governmental oversight, government funding, and the ability to understand what they are doing is illegal and dangerous.... Enough to know that whatever they have been promised is not worth the unintended consequences of their actions.
laurent_du 8 hours ago [-]
Being smart is a qualification.
tsimionescu 7 hours ago [-]
There is no such thing as "being smart". You can be arbitrarily good at some things, and arbitrarily bad at anything else. Even the greatest physicists can have laughably naive philosophical positions. Linus Paulding, one of the greatest minds in chemistry in history, was convinced that you can cure virtually any disease with a large enough dose of vitamin C. Expertise, even the extreme peak, in one field doesn't give you expertise of any kind in another field.
IQ is mostly BS. And even if it's not, it only measures the ability to learn, not the actual skills. What I wrote remains true: just because you have skills in one area (AI deciphering of hieroglyphics scroll), doesn't mean in any way whatsoever that you have skills for something entirely unrelated (administrative matters).
jakeydus 39 minutes ago [-]
Ooh, he won a prize?? Why didn't anyone say so, he's clearly qualified!
saagarjha 8 hours ago [-]
Can you explain why this makes him a good fit for doing government payroll?
7 hours ago [-]
gadders 9 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
kelnos 9 hours ago [-]
Ah yes, let's just make a sweeping generalization about 3 million people.
I've met plenty of people in the private sector who I could easily describe as "the worst kind of bureaucrats". You really don't know what you're talking about.
gadders 9 hours ago [-]
I'm sure there is the odd person that is above average, but most just sign on for an easy life and a gold plated pension.
pesus 8 hours ago [-]
Even if that were true, it's far better than an unqualified, untrained, and unaccountable group who's only mission seems to be institutional destruction and theft.
gadders 7 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
mvkel 11 hours ago [-]
Sure, and there's a sprinter who can outrun Usain Bolt who just happened to become an accountant instead
jamala1 10 hours ago [-]
Probably still better than the non-technical people usually governing things.
d4mi3n 10 hours ago [-]
As many issues as we have, I’d rather have somebody who understands the consequences of a security breach having access to sensitive information than someone who does not.
Think what you will about who came before or after, but everyone involved here should have experience or training in how to handle and secure sensitive information.
Here are the ages of the senior scientists:
Oppenheimer: 38
Teller: 34
Lawrence: 41
Rabi: 44
Szilard: 44
Ulam: 33
Bethe: 36
Fuchs: 31
von Neumann: 39
So the younger people would have had plenty of supervision.
butlike 16 minutes ago [-]
'senior' is only a 6 character prefix that can be attached to any name/position as an accolade. It means nothing out-of-context.
Oppenheimer was smart, no doubt, but did he have the life experience to warrant 'senior'-level decision making? I feel like the history books show it's emphatically indecisive.
mitthrowaway2 12 hours ago [-]
That's incredibly young for senior scientists! 31 years old? Nobody over 45, let alone 50?
CSSer 11 hours ago [-]
I can’t speak to the second half of your comment, but it’s worth pointing out that 31 corresponds with a software engineer who received a BA/BS in four years after high school, started working and hit senior at 3-5 years (a lot of us). That gives a couple years of wiggle room to lead projects after that too.
dekhn 1 hours ago [-]
many senior scientists are around 30-35 years old (by that time they have completed grad school and postdoc and are starting to get their first grants). And in nuclear physics most of these folks were young but had worked in key labs and their bosses were advisors on the project.
ideasarecool 10 hours ago [-]
TBH the 31 year old was Fuchs who spied for the SU. So not really the best pick.
52-6F-62 4 hours ago [-]
And they all regretted their short sighted work didn’t they?
sberens 16 hours ago [-]
These are not the only 6 engineers working for DOGE, just the youngest. They have supervision as well.
roland35 15 hours ago [-]
How do we have any freaking clue what is going on with doge
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
They are all breaking the law.
sam345 5 hours ago [-]
Evidence? There is no evidence of that. Broad allegations that it is illegal doesn't cut it. Even Schumer is not making that claim. All he is doing is complaining. The executive branch has the power to police themselves it's not that difficult to understand that you can audit your own agency. There's nothing illegal going on.
sgarland 4 hours ago [-]
Schumer literally said what they’ve done to USAID is illegal.
> …we know that unilaterally closing USAID is illegal.
The actual US constitution which gives Congress and ONLY congress the power to spend tax money. Musk has absolutely no legal authority to unilaterally stop payments approved by congress. What Musk is doing is a very intentional effort to usurp this authority illegally. Musk should really end up in prison or deported for what he is doing right now.
In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 (the Appropriations Clause) and Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 (the Taxing and Spending Clause).
The power of the purse plays a critical role in the relationship of the United States Congress and the President of the United States, and has been the main historic tool by which Congress has limited executive power.
Not confident Trump will prevail: Scholar on his attempts to take Congress' power of the purse
Professor Deborah Pearlstein joins Morning Joe to discuss her column for the NYT outlining some of Trump’s actions implemented in his first few days in office and why she says Trump is hardly the first president to claim broad executive power, but the difference is not just the enormity of his claims, it's that the administration mostly doesn't try to craft legal justifications for its actions.
‘It’s an Illegal Executive Order. And It’s Stealing.’
prvc 1 hours ago [-]
>the power to spend tax money
But they're not spending; they're kind of doing the opposite of spending. And reducing waste is a previously known (for a long time) goal of theirs.
mftrhu 41 minutes ago [-]
They are... not spending tax money? If so, that would still be the only entity given power by the US Constitution to decide what to do with it.
sgarland 4 hours ago [-]
First, I was showing that the specific claim being made (that Chuck Schumer has not said any illegal activities have taken place) was false. Nothing more.
Second, as I’m sure you know, and are being deliberately obtuse about, the separation of powers doctrine, which has been upheld by SCOTUS; one example [0] is Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer. USAID is codified by law, regardless of its genesis, and as such, only Congress is able to revoke the law.
You must realize attacks made by political opponents are always exaggerated and many times false. First of all doge can’t close USAID. What “they” aka Trump did was pause payments for review.
wussboy 2 hours ago [-]
I'm sure all of the people who depended on those payments and whose lives are now ruined will appreciate that subtle difference.
UltraSane 2 hours ago [-]
That isn't what they are actually saying.
nxobject 15 hours ago [-]
By who, other than Elon Musk, in turn accountable to no one?
prvc 10 hours ago [-]
Why did you choose to restrict your data to "senior" scientists? What is that supposed to prove?
kamaal 8 hours ago [-]
A lot of progress in many fields largely moves in the direction of inertia. Pretty much always.
That of course means drawing upon experience, work and ongoing contributions of people who are around for long. Obviously they would be old.
Getting old is a part of life no? Unless of course some one is planning on dying early.
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
The age is irrelevant. What IS relevant is the fact that the engineers and scientists in the Manhattan Project were all qualified and legally hired and authorized to do what they did. This is NOT true for DOGE which has no legal right to the federal payment system and no legal authority to stop any payments congress has approved.
Dalewyn 8 hours ago [-]
>This is NOT true for DOGE which has no legal right
DOGE and the Treasury Department are both part of the Executive Branch and derive powers from its head, aka the President.
This is essentially President Trump telling President Trump to hand President Trump the keys to the payment system so that President Trump can check WTF President Trump is spending money on.
In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 (the Appropriations Clause) and Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 (the Taxing and Spending Clause).
The power of the purse plays a critical role in the relationship of the United States Congress and the President of the United States, and has been the main historic tool by which Congress has limited executive power.
Bluescreenbuddy 4 hours ago [-]
You seem to have forgotten that the power of the purse is Congress.
Dalewyn 4 hours ago [-]
Power of the purse rests with the House with consent from the Senate, but the execution of the purse is ultimately vested with the Executive.
Congress as the Legislative Branch has no authority to Execute.
UncleMeat 4 hours ago [-]
Congress has passed laws requiring the executive branch to disperse money in a timely fashion, with a few limited exceptions. USAID was also created in response to a law, which requires the executive branch to perform these functions.
Dalewyn 4 hours ago [-]
And? Congress can impeach the President if they feel the law isn't being executed. The law also extends nearly limitless benefit of doubt to the President when he is executing his Constitutional duties.
quadragenarian 3 hours ago [-]
This feels like circular reasoning. In order to execute his (or her) Constitutional Duties, the President must execute laws faithfully. However, the President is extended limitless benefit of the doubt if he decides to not execute the laws put forth by Congress, which means he's not executing his Constitutional duties. So which one is it?
NoGravitas 3 hours ago [-]
You may, unfortunately, thank the Supreme Court for that bit of circular reasoning, rather than GP. Executives since Nixon have been pushing the line that "if the president does it, it's not illegal", and they finally got a SCOTUS to accept it.
UncleMeat 43 minutes ago [-]
> The law also extends nearly limitless benefit of doubt to the President when he is executing his Constitutional duties.
It does not. In fact, limiting this benefit of the doubt has been a major goal of the conservative legal movement in recent years. If what you say was true then Biden would have had no trouble forgiving student loan debt and requiring generation shifting.
7 hours ago [-]
pavlov 7 hours ago [-]
Except it’s Congress spending the money, and Congress is the one who has the authority to hand the keys and do the checks (called “oversight” in that boring old world of government).
Maybe you see the inherent problem with the setup where President Trump is in charge of checking up on what President Trump is spending money on.
catmanjan 15 hours ago [-]
Hilarious irony here, given that these qualified and legally hired people built the most morally reprehensible weapon in history
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
Likewise what Musk is doing is also morally reprehensible. It is the most unconstitutional power grab any US Citizen has tried is a very long time.
sam345 5 hours ago [-]
Please explain that to me? Where is the illegality and unconstitutionality? Agencies are part of the executive branch. This particularly agency was created by executive order. The executive branch can police itself. Just because some people don't like it doesn't mean it's illegal. What is illegal is USAID spending money that is violating the current president's executive order. Bringing that to light is not illegal. In fact it is the duty of the executive to make sure that his orders are being carried out.
UltraSane 2 hours ago [-]
Congress controls spending and no one person can just decide not to transfer the funds.
In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 (the Appropriations Clause) and Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 (the Taxing and Spending Clause).
The power of the purse plays a critical role in the relationship of the United States Congress and the President of the United States, and has been the main historic tool by which Congress has limited executive power.
How Congress — and not the president — controls how taxpayer money is spent
phonon 3 hours ago [-]
That's not how our government works. The executive branch does not get to pick and choose what parts of the budget approved by Congress it wants to execute. [0]
Also, a later act of Congress (The Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act of 1998, 22 U.S.C. 6501 et seq.) established USAID as its own agency.[1]
I dont know if people are lying and/or intentionally gaslighting. DOGE brings information to Trump, Trump acts on it. The illegal part is made up by their political opponents who have apparently being using governmental agencies use to influence other countries to also influence the US - that’s where they went wrong.
UltraSane 2 hours ago [-]
You are completely and utterly wrong. The US constitution gives Congress and ONLY congress the power to spend tax money. Musk has absolutely no legal authority to unilaterally stop payments approved by congress. What Musk is doing is a very intentional effort to usurp this authority illegally. Musk should really end up in prison or deported for what he is doing right now.
In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 (the Appropriations Clause) and Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 (the Taxing and Spending Clause).
The power of the purse plays a critical role in the relationship of the United States Congress and the President of the United States, and has been the main historic tool by which Congress has limited executive power.
Not confident Trump will prevail: Scholar on his attempts to take Congress' power of the purse Professor Deborah Pearlstein joins Morning Joe to discuss her column for the NYT outlining some of Trump’s actions implemented in his first few days in office and why she says Trump is hardly the first president to claim broad executive power, but the difference is not just the enormity of his claims, it's that the administration mostly doesn't try to craft legal justifications for its actions.
‘It’s an Illegal Executive Order. And It’s Stealing.’
steve_adams_86 11 hours ago [-]
They weren’t the only ones building it, for what it’s worth. They were well aware of that.
If you knew a country wanted to build a weapon to cripple your own country, and you had the necessary skills to build that weapon, would you feel come compulsion to try and build it first in order to protect your family and friends? To protect yourself?
LeafItAlone 14 hours ago [-]
>built the most morally reprehensible weapon in history
That’s obviously arguable. Did the weapon and its usage cause more or fewer deaths and destruction than without it?
catmanjan 5 hours ago [-]
By that logic killing all humans now would be better than letting future generations die
rangestransform 1 hours ago [-]
Making war between (certain) nations unconscionable and apocalyptic may have done more for peace than anything created for the purpose of peace
Capricorn2481 12 hours ago [-]
"Let's not hire experts. Experts built the bomb, ya know."
muddi900 5 hours ago [-]
Funny that this comment is in defense of DOGE disregarding all expertise and handing keys over to a bunch non-experts.
blitzar 5 hours ago [-]
It is unironically DEI for nerds.
rtpg 18 hours ago [-]
If you look at the Manhattan project org chart and take people randomly at the top, they're all at least in their 40s. "There are young people on the project" is a thing but at the end of the day things like the Manhattan Project are downstream of the will of an entire behemoth (at least in theory attempting to represent the will of the people), balancing various interests and ethical or moral questions that are usually downstream of some experience.
They also have gone through the military chain of command...
I didn't see Musk's confirmation hearing. OMB's head needs to be Senat confirmed, Musk is giving OMB orders and took over their e-mail addresses. Where's the hearing? Where's the confirmation?
fuzzfactor 4 hours ago [-]
>things like the Manhattan Project are downstream of the will of an entire behemoth
Plus that project in particular was more about destroying things exponentially faster, than it actually was about building things somewhat faster.
The faster building process was achieved in a relatively linear way at best, and the only thing built was a tool for destruction, no comparable efforts were made toward building things of lasting value which would need to more than compensate or the tech effort is a net loss.
Or, after destruction is induced, a recovery can not be made since the time required for building has the time it took for destruction in the denominator.
whimsicalism 14 hours ago [-]
i feel that a lot of people are commenting without knowing a lot about the government. putting aside whether Trump is exceeding his statutory authority (he very well might be with this USAID stuff, he certainly has with his past XOs), you can have an executive branch position with access and managerial control without being confirmed. who confirms the White House Chief of Staff?
rtpg 13 hours ago [-]
The default is that congress has to confirm _all officers_ in the executive branch, and it's only by delegation through law that you get other behavior. That's my understanding at least.
To my knowledge the Chief of Staff does not have the power to coerce other people to do things directly. Any "actual" coercion would have to go through someone like the President, right?
And my dumb thought is if DOGE is going around telling OMB and Treasury what to do (and seemingly is willing to call the US Marshalls on people who stand in their way) and the head of the OMB requires senate confirmation... well what are we doing here?
There's a bunch of nuance you can play at a micro level (for example, Musk messaging Trump to do a thing and Trump giving an OK), though in that case that's also newsworthy and important, because it properly associates who is responsible for what is going on!
Right now we have somebody who seems to be running rampant doing whatever he wants, and this lack of explicit association with the rest of the executive make it unclear who is actually calling the shots here. And if Trump isn't calling the shots... again, where's the confirmation?
whimsicalism 13 hours ago [-]
the chief of staff clearly has managerial discretion over other executive staff? they also have top level security clearance and afaik none of that is in any law. ultimately all of these staff serve at the pleasure of the president.
kelnos 9 hours ago [-]
The president, yes, not the chief of staff.
The chief of staff can relay orders from the president to cabinet members and department heads, but cannot make decisions of this scope.
I don't really know how any of that is relevant, though. Musk is not Trump's chief of staff, and as far as we can tell, is not even employed by the federal government. He is not empowered to give (for example) orders to the head (confirmed or acting) of the OMB.
binary_slinger 17 hours ago [-]
> The guys featured in this gross and irresponsible hit piece by Wired, by all accounts, are brilliant engineers. Top 1%.
Wheres the evidence of their brilliance? A few projects in GitHub isn’t impressive.
Seriously if they’re brilliant this is the perfect PR opportunity to highlight the highly talented people making a difference. But instead we have secrecy.
I suspect the real reason for these choices is they needed people who are young and naive, will not ask too many questions, easy to manipulate, and coerced to work long for little pay.
goldenManatee 8 hours ago [-]
One of them transcribed an ancient Greek text from Vesuvius. So idiots buy into the idea this qualifies them to become unelected arbiters of THEIR OWN opinion of justice and decide who the Treasury pays or does not.
dani__german 5 hours ago [-]
Considering the projects that USAID pays for, what they are doing is just and correct. The US executive bureaucracy is bloated beyond belief and needs to have major cuts. We are spending almost 2 trillion dollars more than we are bringing into the government. So many things need to stop being paid for.
nxobject 4 hours ago [-]
It’s certainly not correct: the FY24 deficit is $1.9T, and the remainder of the ~$6T budget that isn’t DoD, Medicare/Medicaid, SSA, or interest payments is around ~$2.3T. To make a meaningful dent in that deficit, the cuts would have to be of the size that a modicum of checks, balances, and oversight is needed.
Or, instead, we could stop tinkering around the edges as a nation and think about the structural reasons why current spending on pensions and the healthcare safety net in the US isn’t sustainable, despite providing less to citizens than other comparable countries.
moby 50 minutes ago [-]
I know you want to believe this is principled, but...
- the Social Security Administration, in the first MONTH of 2025, has outlaid $395 billion of spending.
- the Department of Defense, in the first MONTH of 2025, has outlaid $250 billion of spending.
- USAID's annual budget is $38 billion annually, so we could realistically estimate that, if they've outlaid $3 billion this year thus far, they've spent 0.4% of what those other two departments have.
Let's call this like it is: USAID is a bogeyman to Trump and Musk and is a threat to the administration's efforts toward becoming a "hard power" country. If they really cared about spending, they would have gone elsewhere first.
And 2/3rds (and growing) of the Federal Budget is mandatory entitlement spending (Medicare, SS, etc), which Trump explicitly stated he won’t touch.
nxobject 4 hours ago [-]
And don’t forget interest payments on the debt (~$800 bil?), which will keep increasing year over year as well.
SmarsJerry 3 hours ago [-]
You have to realize that’s not how it works right? First of all “idiots” aka voters don’t need to be convinced because these people are hired not elected. You mention them being “unelected arbiters” already. However while unelected they are not arbiters. They report to the president who is the arbiter and was elected. Lastly, the president can decide how to implement lanes until his control. If the govt was buying a hammer for $100,000 instead of Home Depot for $10 then yes it can buy the hammer at Home Depot instead.
mike_hearn 9 hours ago [-]
The post you're replying to has a link to a video in which one of the guys talks about how he decoded the Vesuvius scrolls. It's literally a PR video highlighting a highly talented young person.
an_guy 14 hours ago [-]
Wheres the evidence of them not being brilliant? Just because they have fewer github projects, they are not talented?
Also please point to the last federal employee in IT sector who were highlighted for their "Talent and Brilliance".
maeil 14 hours ago [-]
Asking for people to prove the negative? I swear these posts are now being flooded by X types who only comment on these kinds of posts - and what a surprise, looking at this user's profile shows 0 comments on tech stuff, solely on politics - this level of reasoning used to be absent from here regardless of political inclination.
binary_slinger 13 hours ago [-]
If you have some evidence of their brilliance you can post it now.
ban-evader 9 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
pavlov 8 hours ago [-]
Wernher von Braun was a brilliant young engineer, one of the best minds of his generation. At age 25 he joined a patriotic party that was full of curiosity and creativity, disrupting the stale status quo of his home country.
For the next eight years he did groundbreaking work in developing rockets. In 1945 he and his youthful engineering team were actively recruited to continue their work for another country with great ambitions in space. A tremendous success for his personal career, even though the party he served fell a bit short of their goals.
He was clearly "the best of us nerds". Never mind that his genius was built on slave labor and oppression. He disrupted some governments, made good money and got to work on awesome rockets! That’s what counts in life.
otras 3 hours ago [-]
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department, " says Wernher von Braun.
Haha I think the irony here will fly over some heads, this is great though.
tschwimmer 7 hours ago [-]
This has shades of Robin Williams’ bar rant in Good Will Hunting.
moby 48 minutes ago [-]
There's some real irony here.
What I'm hearing from my friends - many of whom have helped build and scale some of the most successful tech companies on the planet - is that no engineer is an exceptional one without a modicum of ethics and wisdom.
These seem to be in short supply at DOGE.
sieabahlpark 44 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
austin-cheney 10 hours ago [-]
Government is not a startup just as pizza is not a vegetable, just as prison is not a vacation from a bad job. It’s more accurate and less toxic to compare molecular oxygen to carbon monoxide. False comparisons do more harm than good.
Inexperienced people imposing disruptions due to lack of experience is why young people may succeed at startups but fail at establishing companies. Likewise, government is not a startup and you really don’t want government to fail.
7 hours ago [-]
kelnos 9 hours ago [-]
They may be smart, and may have won awards, but Musk's techno-thugs are not "the best of us". At best, they're misguided and have fallen for Musk's charisma. At worst, they're actively supporting and abetting the subversion of our democratic government.
niceice 2 hours ago [-]
They are fixing our non-democratic government that has been wasting trillions of our tax dollars, while we have increased homelessness, physical and mental health crisis, and other problems that have been ignored for decades.
The NYT just reported that the federal government lost $236 billion to apparent fraud ("improper payments") in 2023 alone.
The US GAO says "2018-2022 Data Show Federal Government Loses an Estimated $233 Billion to $521 Billion Annually to Fraud"
What Musk is doing is what the majority voted for. To finally put an end the unbelievable waste, fraud and abuse. This is exactly what he said he would do and most Americans are relieved and see hope for the first time in a long time.
onetimeusename 51 minutes ago [-]
I am sorry that you took so much flak in this thread. The HN crowd generally pretends to dislike elitism but this whole thread seems to be questioning the abilities of the engineers and conspiracy theories about billionaires. I interestingly don't see a lot of people defending government spending though. If the DOGE program were done under a different party and perhaps to expand government spending, I imagine the HN crowd would be supportive and defend the engineers.
watwut 35 minutes ago [-]
Nah, what Musk is doing is attempting to destroy democracy with no regard to harm it causes to American citizens. Oh, while not caring about what is legal or illegal at all. It is ridiculous to call previous governments "non democratic" while being engaged in what Trump and Musk are doing now. There is about 0 chance the people selected by Trump will improve health, especially so as they are trying to destroy the very agencies that used to protect food safety, the air and so on.
chikere232 9 hours ago [-]
> At best, they're misguided and have fallen for Musk's charisma. At worst, they're actively supporting and abetting the subversion of our democratic government.
They can easily be both. They're definitely the latter
goldenManatee 8 hours ago [-]
Let us also consider just how badly this continues to paint tech and tech workers to the general public. To distrust technology such as all the AI hate we see online.
niceice 2 hours ago [-]
It's the opposite. This paints tech nerds as the heroes.
watwut 34 minutes ago [-]
To fascists. The rest of us are retroactively apologizing to SJWs who were right the whole time and we did not believed to.
galleywest200 18 hours ago [-]
All of those people you listed as examples were legally and duly appointed/hired for their roles and not given carte-blanche over agencies without oversight.
18 hours ago [-]
anonzzzies 10 hours ago [-]
Probably won't be interpreted as such but this is an honest question; I don't care about their age really but if they are so smart, why are they taking part of an illegal operation? Befehl ist befehl? That's not very smart is it? Or are they picked because they are young and gullible and easily manipulated yet brilliant in some other areas?
turtlesdown11 4 hours ago [-]
> Or are they picked because they are young and gullible and easily manipulated
bingo, take developing minds with high risk tolerance to do the illegal work someone older and wiser would refuse.
NoGravitas 2 hours ago [-]
Smart? Maybe. Wise? Definitely not.
concordDance 9 hours ago [-]
As a non-American: What's illegal here?
My understanding is this is DOGE getting some analysis software in place so they can find out where the money goes and start their cuts, which I understand there is an executive order for. And my understanding is that the executive does have the power to do that sort of audit.
Where has my understanding gone wrong?
saynay 5 hours ago [-]
Potentially quite a lot, although it is hard to tell with how fast they have been moving and the dubious legal claims they have been making to support it.
DOGE is not a department authorized by Congress to exist. Elon's appointment at the head of it was not confirmed by Congress, usurping its right to 'advise and consent' to the executive. All government employees have strict rules they have to follow about conflicts of interest, which Elon's companies many government contracts would put him in violation of. Congress dictates what and how the government spends its money, and the Executive is tasked with carrying that out; Elon has placed himself in the middle of that, and has been saying he will now be the one that chooses how that money is spent. There are many laws in place on how the government is to handle personal information, and there is no indication or oversight of DOGE to verify those laws are being followed. Elon was locking employees out of their workplace, despite having that authority (since he was not confirmed to Congress to be in charge of that department).
There are probably quite a lot of other ones too. A lot of the strategy seems to be moving faster than the courts can keep up.
nxobject 4 hours ago [-]
Apart from the fact that the analysis software is being installed on insecure computers, to ingest the PII of employees and of Treasury transactions, by people with security clearance granted at the last minute:
The cuts are already preceding the actual analysis, and once the authority of the executive to do whatever they have done is decided in court, the damage will have been done. It is the “stop me if you can, I’ll be done before the Supreme Court stops me” approach that is terrifying.
SamoyedFurFluff 8 hours ago [-]
Handling personal information of citizens is subject to a lot of laws and protections. You can’t just put whatever software installed by whomever.
anonzzzies 9 hours ago [-]
I am also a non-American so yes, I would like to see your question answered too.
My understanding from online reading (... but we know how that goes ...) is that that executive order cannot be given without approval and that approval was not given. But would love to hear someone with more knowledge to chime in as all the left-ish to even moderate right media are shouting all of this is illegal and overstepping.
gabruoy 5 hours ago [-]
You are pretty much correct. There is a ton of partisan vitriol that is currently obscuring the facts. My understanding is that Elon Musk is an advisor to the president, but not a government employee. Musk and his crew are given authority to do pretty much whatever they want in terms of cutting employees and programs, so long as Trump signs off on it. Is it legal? Probably, but nothing like this has ever been done before. You can very easily see it as private citizens with no official government power taking away power from more legitimate government employees.
IMTDb 8 hours ago [-]
As a non-american, my feeling is that it’s just about who signs the order.
If Biden creates a new program by executive order and puts a non elected person in charge, republicans will cry. If Trump does the same, democrats will yell.
It’s just the polarisation of the debate that is higher than before.
anonzzzies 8 hours ago [-]
I thought so, but they seem have a lot of issues explaining it in a way that makes it seem on the up. On all sides.
rpmisms 7 hours ago [-]
It's probably legal, but we will find out in court.
andyjohnson0 8 hours ago [-]
> The guys featured in this gross and irresponsible hit piece by Wired, by all accounts, are brilliant engineers. Top 1%.
Their youth and technical ability isn't the problem. What are problems are their inexperience and recklessness and evident lack of awareness. Government and the administrative state are serious undertakings. Move Fast and Break Things is extraordinarily dangerous in this context.
nxobject 4 hours ago [-]
“Move Fast and Break Things” really does only apply to the scenario where you have to clean up your own messes.
not_a_bot_4sho 15 hours ago [-]
> Perhaps one reason startups work so well
As a veteran of startups, this puzzles me. I assume it's a perception that successful startups are the majority of startups. (They are not.)
adrian_b 9 hours ago [-]
Those involved in the Manhattan Project who were young were doing scientific/technical work.
When dealing with organizing and managing a great number of people or resources, I have never seen a young inexperienced human performing adequately, even remotely.
Old age and presumed experience is not at all a guarantee that someone would be good in such roles, but from what I have seen, young age and the associated lack of relevant experience pretty much guarantees failure in such cases.
nxobject 15 hours ago [-]
Good grief, don’t identify me and the rest of HN with then. I don’t want to be “us” with people in government who make a virtue out of being unaccountable solely because they’re successful engineers.
saagarjha 8 hours ago [-]
I figure more 25 year old nerds who dismantle the US government ought to be bullied. Signed, a 25 year old nerd.
(While I'm at it, there's nothing special about age here. Plenty of 25 year olds are actually doing productive things for humanity. But many 40 year olds are doing it too. The difference is that they are competent and empathetic, not random guys who Elon happens to like.)
7 hours ago [-]
jorvi 10 hours ago [-]
> This is who they are bullying and putting a target on. The best of us nerds.
Wilfully choosing to work for DOGE/ current Musk certainly isn't "the best of us".
chikere232 9 hours ago [-]
If they're helping overthrow democracy and the rule of law, they are not the best of us nerds.
Naming and shaming them is good. No one forced them to take this job. With the skills you list they could have done any number of good or neutral things instead.
7 hours ago [-]
melbourne_mat 15 hours ago [-]
The great thing about young people is that they haven't had much time to develop a moral compass. I'd say that makes them perfect for the roles they've been given
epolanski 9 hours ago [-]
Interestingly, I see it the other way.
Young people tend to be more ideological and ready to fight for what they care. The older you get, the more problems you have (bills, health, children, etc) the less you care imho.
c22 6 hours ago [-]
The older you get the more discerning you become around what is worth caring about.
tartoran 2 hours ago [-]
I think there's a middle ground. Very young people are inexperienced but old people are also manipulable too. Probably the most fruitful average ages for doing the right thing are between 40 and 65. I think there are a lot more exceptions for older people than younger ones.
stefap2 11 hours ago [-]
It is legal to make a federal government employee’s name, role, and salary publicly accessible because taxpayer-funded positions fall under the scope of public interest and open-records laws, which promote transparency and accountability in the use of government funds. You can find this information on official databases like the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) website, which routinely publishes data about federal employees’ salaries and positions, as well as on other government websites that provide access to public records.
WJW 7 hours ago [-]
> one reason startups work so well
Since when do startups "work well"? Some startups work well, but famously >90% of them fail. Imagine if 9 out of every 10 fires was just left alone because the fire brigade was replaced by a startup, or if 9 out 10 bridges fell down within a few years. Startups are just one of many models of running things, but they are not appropriate for everything.
uni_rule 2 hours ago [-]
Treating the government like a startup is gambling, the difference is startups are intentionally disposable while a Nation State... it's a fucking Nation State.
samirillian 7 hours ago [-]
The “problem” with youth isn’t intelligence, it’s that early twenties you are at your most confidently ideological and you’re most willing to break things. I bet the average age of a terrorist is pretty low too.
The danger of the vision is the power of the vision, fix what’s broken in the bureaucracy, it’s not being fascist it’s just easier to ask forgiveness than permission!
We’ll see!
msie 8 hours ago [-]
I would be weary of nerds taking care of this nation after all I've seen in the tech industry. AirBNB, Uber, Juicero, WeWork, Theranos, Tesla, crypto...
pesus 8 hours ago [-]
Agreed. I used to scoff at the hate "techbros" received, but at this point the industry has done more than enough damage to deserve that derision. This is by far the biggest escalation, though.
JKolios 7 hours ago [-]
> Perhaps one reason startups work so well is they are one of the few places that still let young people exert agency.
So, who's the VC that will fund the 4-9 failed governments we'll have to go through until we get a unicorn?
uni_rule 2 hours ago [-]
Maybe we'll get a solid Somaliland in the ensuing chaos after this current unmanaged Chapter 11 leads to a messy Chapter 7.
fermentation 16 hours ago [-]
They may be brilliant engineers, but they’re adults who’ve decided to become enemies of the state.
rufus_foreman 10 hours ago [-]
Wait, what?
rvz 8 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
DrScientist 7 hours ago [-]
You need a mix of naive enthusiasm and grizzled experience.
It feels a bit like that famous Joel on Software post - when faced with an existing code base - it looks over complex and you can't understand it - so you decide to re-write - only to discover during the process why it's so complex in the first place.
Sure it's important to challenge the status quo - but it's really important to approach it with humility and to seek to understand why things are the way they are, not just to assume you know it all.
2 hours ago [-]
amarcheschi 9 hours ago [-]
Putting a target on? They're dismantling the gears that make America run smoothly, and you say putting a target on? This is the point where people should start taking into consideration violent actions
tqi 21 minutes ago [-]
Smart is not the same thing as qualified. None of these qualifications you've listed have anything to do with running a government agency.
People around here love to talk about the Dunning–Kruger effect, but seem to be of the mistaken belief that it is about smart vs dumb people rather than people with domain expertise vs people without.
cozzyd 13 hours ago [-]
All the bigger shame they're illegally seizing government systems.
guax 5 hours ago [-]
Even If I take everything you said here to the T, being brilliant in making tech startups does not AT ALL mean they'll be brilliant understanding government processes and structures.
This over arrogance of us techies thinking because we're good with computers we're the best at everything is what people are annoyed and, justifiably critical of.
You're going to be responsible to assess and dismantle a government agency with thousands of employees and billions in budget being in your twenties with ZERO gov experience is indeed a huge red flag and not merely putting a target because they're young.
We've all met incredibly accomplished people who are not to be trusted with sharp objects. Expertise in one area does not translate to another easily.
teew 9 hours ago [-]
It's great that there are young, brilliant people in research and engineering and working for business ventures. It's also very cool you remember some who started out young in the past. Hasn't got much to do with the posted article though, as that is talking about the integrity of public policy versus actors personally beholden to unelected officials and their friends reaching into US-governance.
cedws 10 hours ago [-]
Intelligence isn’t an indicator of ability to navigate huge bureaucracies.
3 hours ago [-]
goldenManatee 8 hours ago [-]
No you’re supporting treasonous actions and you must be taught and discouraged from such actions that violate the will of the people in favor of expeditiousness. Your views are a danger to a stably growing society.
djaychela 7 hours ago [-]
>Young people bring a force of curiosity and creativity that can disrupt the status quo.
Counterpoint - they don't have the wisdom and experience in the domain they are working in that older, wiser heads do. I've seen a LOT of stuff from both 'tech bros' and programmers who are new to a domain where it's clear they are 100% confident they are right, despite consensus to the contrary. And when their plans are implemented, all the things they didn't think about come into play - such as Tesla service which is terrible.
These people may all be brilliant engineers. But not all problems are engineering problems, and while these people may be able to engineer a system to reduce costs drastically, they may not understand where to cut costs and where efficiency can actually be achieved.
Don't forget that most of the new tech economy that people harp on about (Uber, Amazon, Tesla spring to mind) is built on the erosion of workers' rights and lowest-common-denominator treatment wherever possible.
ZeroGravitas 10 hours ago [-]
There were at least a couple of guys on the Manhattan project giving information to Russia as well.
mattgreenrocks 3 hours ago [-]
All those credentials and yet they lack the wisdom to see what is really happening.
Maybe that had something to do with why they were chosen?
Pat_Murph 35 minutes ago [-]
Don't startups fail at a very high rate though?
drawkward 17 hours ago [-]
So you are saying this is a team developing a tool to nuke the government?
butlike 22 minutes ago [-]
You work on a team named after a meme.
Such rhyme. Much knowledge.
Wow.
turtlesdown11 4 hours ago [-]
When the very first sentence of your premise is false, why read the rest?
drbojingle 10 hours ago [-]
Not just that but you CAN train people. It's possible for juniors to learn >.>
bjourne 6 hours ago [-]
The Cultural Revolution was led by China's smartest students too.
doctorpangloss 12 hours ago [-]
They are all beneficiaries of affirmative action, for libertarians, in case you are wondering why these guys and not more competent or mercenary people, which are both abundant.
boringg 16 hours ago [-]
You cant compare manhattan project, NASA to a bunch of good software techs ripping apart the government. The first two projects required high levels of intelligence and new concepts.
These guys are the modern equivalent of name any destructive revolutionary group looking for stuff they don't agree with.
I don't however refute that you can be a brilliant mind and active contributor at any age. Just that these guys aren't anywhere close to the same page as our greatest minds.
sgarland 4 hours ago [-]
Not to mention, NASA famously has incredibly strict coding standards and guidelines [0]. I somehow doubt there’s anything along those lines at DOGE.
It does not matter. None of that has to do with the requirements of the job which, BTW, should have zero executive power and only make recommendations to Congress, the institution that has power of the purse.
Do you understand that this is just a constitutional crisis? I reckon musk ended up appointing kids because they also did not understand the political and ethical implications of all this.
valbaca 18 hours ago [-]
Source? and what's the median?
Also, that was during WW2 which would likely skew those #s (though I would actually expect to much older, as in not most-fit-military age)
generj 6 minutes ago [-]
The field being relatively new also heavily influenced the scientists being so young.
The age of modern quantum mechanics started in 1925. Heisenberg received the Nobel Prize for his 1927 work on the uncertainty principle in 1932 at the age of 31. 10 years later the Manhattan Project started.
There just weren’t that many older scientists with training in the field. Young PhDs were only a few years removed from the first discoveries that enabled nuclear physics to leap forward.
tjhill 17 hours ago [-]
Richard Rhodes' introduction to Serber's "The Los Alamos Primer" suggests 24:
> Despite this leavening of older men (Oppenheimer was thirty-eight), the group's average age was only twenty-four.
RIMR 14 hours ago [-]
I don't care how smart they are. They are committing crimes in service to fascism. Speak for yourself in your use of the word "us".
kamaal 14 hours ago [-]
>>Perhaps one reason startups work so well is they are one of the few places that still let young people exert agency.
As some one who just turned 40. This does make sense. Perhaps the biggest deal about aging especially in the downswing is the countdown to death keeps getting closer as you go. You do tend to care less about things around you.
Im beyond the point I would take offence on anything, but Im also beyond the point I would do something to impress somebody. There is no trying twice from here. Things either work with something/somebody or you move on to something/somebody that does/do.
I definitely was more tenacious as a young man, with projects and relationships. I'd move heavens to make something work. Now they have work or something new is sought. As an aging person I care more about less noise, bullshit and more stability. Guys like me are needed for continuity of life. Whereas younger men are needed to bring about big leap frog changes.
The world needs the young and old for both progress and sanity.
7 hours ago [-]
Juliate 4 hours ago [-]
Well, even if they are, brilliance isn't everything in a human... And it shows.
9 hours ago [-]
52-6F-62 4 hours ago [-]
LOL.
I’m some sort of off-brand late comer Scots Canadian so my opinion is essentially alien and invalid to people like you but I’ve got to ask:
Why does the incestuous name dropping qualify anyone especially?
Peter Thiel is expressly trying to (and vocally so) speed run everything into the apocolypse and is very worried about the anti christ (apparently). He’s also running a massive surveillance dragnet and wants power and money above all. Again, his words.
How in the global fuck does working for or being awarded by a person with those ambitions qualify anyone for anything?
You may as well have said they attend church every sunday as their qualification.
If you said, well he has spent 10 years developing high availability systems and invented novel algorithms or implementations for managing high volume data flows or something then maybe there would be something to talk about.
But I’ve seen baby faced juniors elevated to senior and management roles and bungle them SO badly that it alienated all the actual engineering talent again and again because they were little more than virtual blood boys.
It sounds more like this latter scenario is the most likely.
Its just all goddamned hype men and their blood boys up and down this grotesque beast of what was once an industry.
With those words you don’t work in an industry, you serve a new segment of technolords and their only goal is to eat everything.
courseofaction 15 hours ago [-]
They are violating many, many laws. They should be named.
natch 11 hours ago [-]
Yes, name the laws.
hypothesis 10 hours ago [-]
> The Privacy Act of 1974 generally, and the Internal Revenue
Code with respect to taxpayer information, make it unlawful for Secretary Bessent to
hand over access to the Bureau’s records on individuals to Elon Musk or other
members of DOGE.
Should we be downvoting this person? How can we speak with this person? Bro, we need to reason with you, keep coming back.
makizar 18 hours ago [-]
source ?
cheesemonster 10 hours ago [-]
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vtashkov 9 hours ago [-]
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farrarstan 10 hours ago [-]
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booleandilemma 17 hours ago [-]
I think it's really cool they have the Herculaneum Papyrii guy working for them!
It's a shame Wired is behaving this way.
brazzy 10 hours ago [-]
No. What's a shame is that these people are misusing their talents to aid the dismantling of American democracy.
Getting named and shamed as hard as possible is the least that should happen to them
simianparrot 9 hours ago [-]
It’s good to read a comment of sanity amidst all this instinctual bellyaching whenever T or E do anything. But in particular when a formerly well respected publication writes a hit piece like this…
I used to scoff when people said “TDS” was a real thing, but having observed the same with Elon over the years and then listening to hours long talks between him and others, I realised “EDS” is clearly also a thing. And lo and behold: Listening to full long-form talks with Trump revealed a person wholly different to what media portrays.
And as a disclaimer, no I don’t agree with everything they do or say. But they’re not the monsters the monsters in the media machinery spin them up to be either.
The real monsters are those that purposefully trim and clip and stitch together falsehoods out of context, and then believe their own lies until they’re willing to throw other citizens under a figurative bus just because they work with or for “those people”.
chikere232 9 hours ago [-]
doubt
msie 8 hours ago [-]
Wow, just wow. There is no need to manipulate what Trump or Elon says or does to portray them as monsters. It is so plainly obvious I wonder what warped version of the world you see. Elon is clearly a Nazi. Trump clearly is an idiot and vindictive. One example: Trump order the release of water from two dams: https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/03/climate/trump-california-wate... This is such an idiotic move. I don't see how it could be portrayed differently.
simianparrot 7 hours ago [-]
“Elon is clearly a nazi”
I mean… Yeah I’m not even going to bother.
watwut 21 minutes ago [-]
He literally pays money to European far right. Friendly with Orban.
trealira 1 hours ago [-]
Promotes antisemites on Twitter, says Jews have been stoking anti-white racism and deserve no sympathy, did multiple Nazi salutes, and then went to Germany to support the AfD and say they need to stop feeling guilty for their Nazi past. Yeah, Elon is a Nazi.
stormfather 3 hours ago [-]
You can't reason with these people. Politics shuts people's brains off. Elon wants to replace Americans with H1-B hires. Trump wants to move the Palestinians out of Gaza for his masters. Nazis... lol.
muddi900 5 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
Denkverbot 7 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
tqi 12 minutes ago [-]
I hate that in this country, everything is political and everything has only 2 sides. Is there waste and inefficiency in government spending? Yes, I think so. Should we do our best to cut and trim this? Absolutely. Is DOGE's ham-fisted, half-assed version of this "doing our best"? Of course not.
But apparently in this country, you have to be either pro government waste or pro DOGE. No middle ground or common sense allowed.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 6 minutes ago [-]
> I hate that in this country, everything is political and everything has only 2 sides.
> But apparently in this country, you have to be either pro government waste or pro DOGE. No middle ground or common sense allowed.
Take a close look at who is creating two sides. Perhaps there is more nuance to the points being made by the people who do not seem to be pro DOGE.
jimmydoe 12 hours ago [-]
One thing CCP did masterfully is sending very young grads, who are newly admitted to the party, to go to different local communities and evaluate the outcome government project like poverty reduction there (because obviously Xi don’t trust local officials and party members). These young people have a lot of energy to make some impact, also too young to lie or corrupt. The result turned out to be actually effective.
There are quite some admiration for CCP from the american new right like moldbug and musk, It seems either they took a page from CCP, or happen to think alike.
turbojet1321 12 hours ago [-]
> too young to lie or corrupt
In my experience, youth has little to do with honesty or corruptibility.
jorvi 10 hours ago [-]
Young people often are hopelessly ideological, in the same way a dogmatic religious person would be. Both are less corruptible than your average person.
flakeoil 10 hours ago [-]
As fresh graduate at your first job, I suppose you follow the instructions from your boss a bit more and still have faith in your boss and upper management, a bit more than a senior, more experienced employee. Just look at the military, it's quite easy to scream at 18 year old recruits and have them crawl in mud and being screamed insults at. Try the same with a 45 year old.
jimkleiber 10 hours ago [-]
But can that also make them more gullible?
tivert 3 hours ago [-]
> But can that also make them more gullible?
Oh definitely. They often don't have the experience to question what they're told or see the holes and deceptions in it. For instance: they'd be more easily fooled by a fake deadline. Or in this case, they may trust and follow their leader like a little zealot, even when he's wrong and doing bad things.
watwut 9 hours ago [-]
Enron was staff by young people hired fresh of school. It is easy to manipulate young people into a new set of values. Army knows that, monks know that etc. These likely believe Musk is second coming of god.
zfg 9 hours ago [-]
It makes them more corruptible. They will perform corrupt acts while believing it the right thing to do. They're too naive to know better.
They won't do graft. They will follow orders. Even and especially when the orders are corrupt.
willvarfar 9 hours ago [-]
Exactly; it's not that the young ideological think-they-are-doing-the-right-thing are not serving a corrupt system (perhaps unwittingly). They are effective because the corruption they serve diligently comes from the central party and not from local considerations?
jorvi 7 hours ago [-]
Corruptible is relative to the goal you're trying to achieve.
If you're the king of a nation, anyone trying to convince your knights to overthrow you is a corrupting force. But at the same time you could be a brutal ruler corrupted by power, and it is the knights that are trying to upturn the corrupt system.
kamaal 7 hours ago [-]
>>Both are less corruptible than your average person.
I honestly believe, cheating is a primal trait. Age has little to do with it. In fact young cheats are likely to cheat with more enthusiasm and energy than elder cheats.
Safe enough to say, age has nothing to do with this.
tivert 10 hours ago [-]
> In my experience, youth has little to do with honesty or corruptibility.
It has a lot to do with naivete and not having the confidence to stand up when needed.
There's a lot of easily indoctrinated, exploitable idealistic youth out there. A lot of organizations run on them.
leftcenterright 9 hours ago [-]
isn't it more like "too young to speak up" ? How many Snowdens do we have after all.
jimmydoe 11 hours ago [-]
I mean their social experience is usually not enough to conduct sophisticated rent seeking or reach some comprise with local officials.
Young grads from big urban usually don’t do well with local mid aged bureaucrats. That type of human nature tension is what’s being leveraged here.
willvarfar 9 hours ago [-]
It seems that when push comes to shove right now its the young people who are simply removing people who don't kowtow.
Of course it is easy to imagine that the people they are removing are those who made principled stands rather than the corrupt who keep their heads down. As in they are removing the people who thought their job was to serve the public rather than line their own pockets?
It is not clear if that is the effect the chiefs want or not.
DanielHB 9 hours ago [-]
Makes sense, I also imagine the incentives were different. These young grads had no incentive to lie while local gov officials had plenty.
The only one would be for the grads to take bribes from the local gov officials, but if the central government sent enough grads it would be too many to bribe.
saturn8601 9 hours ago [-]
My understanding is that local Chinese municipalities are going bankrupt due to the high amounts of debt that they have?
They are going through a real estate crash and their demographic situation bodes a very bleak long term future.
h1fra 9 hours ago [-]
Maybe the difference here, is that those young people seems to already be corrupted and doing illegal stuff
dtquad 11 hours ago [-]
Many high-ranking Chinese officials, including Xi Jinping (Chemical Engineering) and his predecessors like Hu Jintao (Hydraulic Engineering) and Jiang Zemin (Electrical Engineering), are trained engineers.
They also like economics and finance people. Premier Li Keqiang has a PhD in Economics from Peking University. Zhu Rongji, a former premier, had a strong economics and mathematics background.
I am not a fan of American techno-libertarianism nor the Chinese CCP but Europe needs more engineers and economists (from math heavy programs) in politics.
jimmydoe 11 hours ago [-]
Not to challenge your conclusion but you might want to examine your examples carefully. AFAIK Xi Jinping is widely believed to be close to illiterate…
saturn8601 8 hours ago [-]
They should ask the family that hosted him for two weeks in America if he was illiterate.
The idea that Xi is functionally illiterate beggars belief and is clearly false. It's not impossible his actual Chemical Engineering education was of low quality, but to say he is close to illiterate is actually silly.
DanielHB 9 hours ago [-]
Also have you seen the people coming out of majors these days (and by that I mean my own graduation class of ~2010)? Uni access expanded so much that just graduating doesn't mean that much anymore. Especially for career government officials who probably went straight into government from uni with no work experience.
energy123 8 hours ago [-]
Xi got into Tsinghua not due to intellectual ability, but due to his political connections with the CCP. This isn't the meritocratic or technocratic story one might have assumed to be the case reading the above comment. China is ultimately a poor country on a per-capita basis and essentially a failure when compared to countries with a similar culture and historical circumstance like Taiwan. It's only their massive size that leads people to the faulty conclusion that they have anything worth emulating.
sudosysgen 4 hours ago [-]
I'm fully willing to accept that he got into Tsinghua from connections, and at the time I'm sure there was mass instability and on top of it I'm sure he would have been able to avoid coursework if he wanted to, leading to the real possibility of low quality education. That's still far away from being almost illiterate.
masterclef 11 hours ago [-]
Europe needs a Trump and an Elon more than engineers. They’ve become corrupted and lazy in their hundreds of years of nepotism. Italy, France, Germany, all shitwrecks not worth salvaging at this point.
geraltofrivia 10 hours ago [-]
Not a comment on your overall statement but I want to point out the irony of mentioning Trump and Musk in a positive light and nepotism in a negative one.
masterclef 10 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
xav0989 9 hours ago [-]
But naming your kids to positions of power because they’re your kids is nepotism.
IMTDb 8 hours ago [-]
That’s exactly how it works in my Western Europe country.
Bonus point if said child is using his mother political ties to organise an international drug smuggling ring.
masterclef 3 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
whatever1 10 hours ago [-]
Thousands of years of history. How many years did the super efficient Nazi Germany that Musk admires survive?
brazzy 10 hours ago [-]
Europe needs a Trump and Elon exactly as much as a human needs pancreatic cancer and rabies.
Fuck, am I glad that I live in Europe and not that corrupt shithole USA.
asimpletune 9 hours ago [-]
I am European and American and have lived on both continents. They’re both nice places but in different ways. We shouldn’t be speaking so coarsely to each other, if for nothing else than it’s simply bad rhetoric if you care to make a point. On the other hand at best we should choose kindness because civilization depends on it. Nations are just useful fictions but the facts that can never go away are the people that inhabit them. So I strongly urge anyone reading this to reconsider what kind of person they want to be before responding to rudeness with rudeness.
uni_rule 2 hours ago [-]
If it's any consolation I'm just American and I believe Trump is an incontinent rubber stamp for any brown-noser that orbits him and Elon deserves to be unceremoniously gored with a brick.
watwut 9 hours ago [-]
Remember Trump giving positions to all of his own family? That is textbook nepotism. It is hard to find that level of nepotism in any other western country.
uni_rule 2 hours ago [-]
Well there is England...
zfg 12 hours ago [-]
> too young to lie or corrupt
Too young to have the experience to know what's a good idea and what's a bad idea. Too young to question what they're doing. Too young to push back when things are going wrong. Too young to have life experience and so are far easier to shape and indoctrinate.
What Xi/Musk need in these cases is loyalty, not critical thinking. Apparently they both know how to leverage the youth for it.
zfg 11 hours ago [-]
Yes, they are corrupting the youth for their own purposes. The young are too dumb to recognize what's happening to them.
ImHereToVote 8 hours ago [-]
CPC
jimkleiber 11 hours ago [-]
Well I hope in the (very near) future we decide we want the executive branch to have less power, so as to protect ourselves from a unitary executive who goes rogue. Yes it may be less efficient, but more resilient.
This drive for uber efficiency can 1) make government more fragile (see toilet paper supply issues during the pandemic) and 2) be a slippery slope to dehumanization (see paper clip maximizing problem).
kelnos 9 hours ago [-]
The problem is that we painted ourselves into a this corner long ago. Even if Congress wasn't generally paralyzed by bad-faith partisan fighting, the House and Senate are not equipped to do even a small fraction of what the executive branch does today.
If we removed much of the executive branch's power, it wouldn't be "less efficient". The government just wouldn't do anything.
Some people (current GOP) seems to think this would be a good thing.
jimkleiber 8 hours ago [-]
Agreed. If government provides fewer services, companies can provide more services at a profit. Why have public (non-profit) education when you can have private (highly profitable) education? Who needs public (non-profit) health insurance when you can have private (highly profitable) health insurance?
The list can go on and on.
3D30497420 7 hours ago [-]
Exactly.
There's probably some theory about power being like the conservation of energy, in that it doesn't get destroyed, just transformed or moved. Take power away from the government and that power doesn't just make people more free, it just goes somewhere else. Clearly the intent is to move that power from the government (which is at least nominally meant to protect citizens) to companies/the rich.
jimkleiber 5 hours ago [-]
That's how I see it as well. Government in theory should protect the citizens, which I assume often means the consumers and the workers. But maybe capitalism run amok is when capitalists accumulate the power and use it to strong-arm the government into liking the corporate shareholders (capitalists?) more than the citizens.
bagels 10 hours ago [-]
After seeing Bush in office, the sensible thing to do would have been to reduce presidential power. Nobody bothered. Then again after Trump. Biden didn't do a damn thing to reduce presidential power, knowing what happened and what could happen. Way too late. The judiciary and congress are now both subservient to the president.
lukas099 8 hours ago [-]
There are certainly sympathetic federal judges, including on the supreme court, but as a whole the judiciary is not (yet) owned
singron 3 hours ago [-]
The supreme court sure did take power away from the executive in Sacket v EPA, Ohio v EPA, and Biden v Nebraska, but it's likely that reasoning only applies to liberal presidents for the 6-3 conservative federalist society majority.
kelnos 9 hours ago [-]
Biden didn't have the power to reduce his own power. Congress would have, but they're not interested in doing that.
jimkleiber 8 hours ago [-]
Because they see themselves as Democrats and Republicans more than they see themselves as Members of Congress. The identity/loyalty issue seems to be the main problem.
If they see themselves first as Members of Congress, then they should try to seek more power for Congress, not for their parties.
XorNot 10 hours ago [-]
Toilet paper supply issues were not an example of an efficiency problem, they were misinformation creating a demand shock.
Your average supermarket has limited shelf space and stocks to the level that it will reliably clear shelves before new supply turns up, or things spoil.
If a whole much of people just buy one extra pack that week, this can easily empty the shelves... Which then gets posted to social media to imply a supply problem, which then prompts people to increase their buying rate.
There's no solution to this other then education: there was no supply issue, and never was. Any "solution" would be concluding that a supermarket should devote an absurd amount of shelf space to toilet paper, just in case misinformation goes viral again.
jimkleiber 10 hours ago [-]
From my understanding, toilet paper is produced for commercial and residential purposes. As people stopped going to the office (and restaurants and malls, etc), people stopped using commercial toilet paper and started using more residential toilet paper.
What I read at the time also said that it's very hard for a plant to shift from making commercial to residential toilet paper, that the margins are paper thin (pun intended) and so it would take a lot of time and money to retool.
XorNot 10 hours ago [-]
That's the explanation for why they couldn't just "order more toilet paper" to refill the store shelves.
But that wasn't the cause of the problem: the cause of the problem was people thinking "oh I'm not sure about a shortage, better buy an extra pack" (I know we did) for just one week...and then someone posts an "empty store shelves!!!" image on social media...which in turn prompts another group of people to do the same at another store, and then the idiot-brigade scalpers get involved. There's still no actual shortage though! The amount of toilet paper being produced is the same, the consumption rate is the same, people have just changed their stockpiling preference and the rate at which they do is spreading faster then any conceivable supply chain adjustment. But the actual consumption rate hasn't changed at all.
The idiot-brigade scalpers are worth commenting on because IMO there's a second factor which usually turns up: it's kind of fun to "buy out the supermarket" of some good. Like there's a child-like glee of going "I'll totally buy all of it" but most people don't consider that you can do this for any one item in the supermarket for like, $300 on the spot. It's just there's no reason too - partly because it's the most expensive possible way to buy almost anything.
amluto 7 hours ago [-]
> There's still no actual shortage though! The amount of toilet paper being produced is the same, the consumption rate is the same, people have just changed their stockpiling preference
You seem to have entirely missed the point of the comment you’re replying to. The consumption rate of residential toilet paper increased. Have you seen actual commercial toilet paper and considered its texture and, more critically, the size and shape of the rolls? While it’s possible for someone to awkwardly wipe using a monster roll of commercial paper at home, the commercial roll is not really a desirable substitute for residential TP.
xnx 22 hours ago [-]
Are such drastic action appropriate given the current state of the US? The US probably hasn't been this economically dominant since after WWII.
Feels like Chesterton fences are getting torn up left and right by people too young and incurious to possibly understand why those fences might be there.
nomel 21 hours ago [-]
> Are such drastic action appropriate given the current state of the US?
With the debt ceiling ever increasing, approaching a trillion dollars in interest per year, nearing $6k/year per working individual, I would say the correct time to put any effort, whatsoever, into reducing spending, was 20 years ago.
I think the fundamental problem is we lack adversarial systems within the government: it doesn't like to hurt itself. Trying to cut jobs/waste/find fraud is political/career suicide for anyone in government. Accountability requires a true adversary/"outsider". Should that be DOGE, or its current implementation? Probably not. Should the adversarial concept of DOGE exist? I would enjoy seeing arguments against the concept. It seems like it's severely needed.
derektank 21 hours ago [-]
US debt as a percentage of GDP (i.e. our ability to pay off our debt) has basically remained static since COVID. I agree that the US requires a serious debate about our fiscal priorities and the appropriate levels of spending and taxation, particularly with automatic social security cuts looming. But it is nowhere near an emergency and fiscal decisions are the responsibility of Congress, not the executive.
cheald 19 hours ago [-]
Another way to look at that time series is that US debt as a percentage of GDP has doubled from 62% to 121% since 2007.
My point is that our debt only grows unsustainably in response to severe crises (the great financial crisis, COVID). Our deficit is otherwise sustainable during "normal" times as our economy grows alongside it. We of course should want our debt to GDP ratio to be declining during periods of peace and prosperity (and it is evidence of political malfeasance that we haven't seen that happen since the late 90s). But our current spending is not a crisis in it's own right.
nmilo 15 hours ago [-]
There’s a severe crisis every 10 years. Do you really want to be at a point where the next one topples us?
amrocha 19 hours ago [-]
Why should you care if the national debt goes up or down? Why is it bad if it goes up? Do you actually understand the underlying mechanics, or have you just built a lot of eloquent abstractions around the idea of “number go up is bad”?
Go high enough, interest payments consume the entire federal budget. There is no way out except revenue growth (infeasible without breakthrough productivity improvements), taxation, and printing money (equivalent to taxation). Before that point, other bad things happen such as creditors losing faith in the government, making debt more expensive and destabilizing the dollar's position as global reserve currency.
Over the last few decades, debt has continued to rise as a percentage of the federal budget, and appears that trend will continue without drastic action.
amrocha 14 hours ago [-]
Barring massive political instability, nobody is ever going to lose confidence in the dollar, regardless of debt ratios. Japan has a debt ratio of over 300%, economists have been predicting a crash and capital flight for decades, but none of it has come to pass.
At the end of the day, the Japanese market is huge and people want access to it. Same thing goes for the US.
If the private market doesn’t want bonds, the central bank can purchase them. That’s not inflationary. What is inflationary is how the government then spends that money, but that’s true for any government spending, regardless of how it was financed. Either way, the debt ratios is literally meaningless.
mecsred 1 hours ago [-]
Hindsight is 20/20, so let's use it. How many times has the "too big to fail" hedge worked out favorably for everyone involved?
derektank 18 hours ago [-]
I'm not an expert but I think I have a reasonable understanding of the situation. If the US debt to GDP ratio gets too high, purchasers of US Treasuries (bills, notes, and bonds) will lose confidence in the US government's ability to service that debt and demand a higher yield on US Treasuries at auction, which increases the cost of servicing the debt. At that point, the government has two choices; pay the higher yield which eventually results in fewer services/higher taxes and a contraction in the real economy, or to default on the debt which would result in very bad things happening (this is where I cop to ignorance on the scale and exact details of the badness). We should get ahead of that by reducing our services/raising taxes now so that we don't risk a loss of confidence that would restrict our ability to borrow in a time of crisis.
amrocha 14 hours ago [-]
Two things:
1. Nobody is losing confidence in the US over debt ratios. Japan’s debt ratio is over 300%, and they’ve had no issues with financing their spending or capital flight. This is a myth that has been proven false.
2. If the private market doesn’t want to purchase bonds, the central bank can do it. Either way, there is never a need to default on debt owed in your sovereign currency. This will never happen. The risk here is inflation, but that risk is always present, regardless of how spending is financed.
lossolo 6 hours ago [-]
This is false.
1. Japan is a net creditor nation, meaning it owns more foreign assets than it owes in debt. The U.S., on the other hand, is a net debtor nation, meaning it relies heavily on foreign investors to finance its deficits.
Japan also has a high domestic savings rate, and a large portion of its debt is held by its own citizens and institutions. This reduces capital flight risks compared to the U.S., which depends more on foreign investors (e.g., China, Japan, and others buying U.S. Treasuries).
The U.S. dollar is the world’s reserve currency, which gives the U.S. unique advantages, but also means its debt is held globally. A loss of confidence in U.S. debt could have larger consequences compared to Japan.
2. U.S. benefits from strong global demand for the dollar, but this is not guaranteed forever. If the Federal Reserve were to absorb all bond issuance ( basically monetizing the debt), inflation expectations would rise sharply, leading to a currency crisis or higher interest rates. Zimbabwe and Weimar Germany are extreme examples of this.
U.S. essentially "exports" its debt due to its persistent trade deficits.
U.S. runs large trade deficits, meaning it imports more goods than it exports. Other countries (like China and Japan) accept U.S. dollars in exchange for their goods, and then reinvest those dollars into U.S. assets, primarily Treasury bonds. This has helped finance U.S. debt at low interest rates for decades.
If global confidence in U.S. debt declines, foreign demand for Treasuries could drop, leading to a weaker dollar, higher interest rates, and inflationary pressures.
All of your comments in this thread are misleading.
amrocha 2 hours ago [-]
This creditor/debtor dichotomy is meaningless. It doesn’t change the fact that the debt is owed in dollars and can always be serviced. If foreign investors lose confidence in the US and sell off their treasuries, the central bank can just purchase them and nothing would change. In fact, that’s what Japan does, and that’s why they’re a net creditor. And no, this would not lead to inflation. Again, look at Japan for an empiric example.
kristjansson 18 hours ago [-]
2007 is a choice baseline… did something happen in 2008?
ec109685 14 hours ago [-]
Housing crisis, banks failing.
roenxi 19 hours ago [-]
"Since COVID" is a bad baseline, I would draw a parallel with someone who's condition "stayed stable since they entered the hospital a few days ago". It is too recent and the situation pre-COVID was quite bad. The US is the most indebted entity [0] in history. But it is not obviously the most productive; since that title may sit with China now. It is a precarious position.
Complaining about the “national debt” is the clearest sign that someone does not understand economics.
What do you think happens if the debt goes up? Do you think the government is gonna go bankrupt? That’s literally not how it works.
Do you think inflation is gonna happen? Again, literally not how it works. In fact, too low public spending means you get deflation which is even worse than inflation.
nomel 18 hours ago [-]
Have there been any efforts to remove the limit completely, so we can spend freely?
I will admit that I don't understand economics, but infinite free money hacks seem too good to be true.
amrocha 18 hours ago [-]
Infinite free money hacks is literally how fiat currencies work.
The government wants the economy to operate at close to full capacity, so it creates money and spends it into the private sector.
Eventually that money makes it to individuals, who want to save some of that money. There’s also foreign agents that might want to hold on to your currency, and trade happening that means some of your money leaves your country.
If the government maintains steady spending, this money supply slowly dwindles, which leads to a shrinking economy.
So governments issue debt to offset that dwindling money supply. The catch is that spending that doesn’t create real resources is inflationary, so you have to spend money on things that eventually earn you more money.
At the end of the day, that’s the idea of macro economics. Spend enough to get your economy growing, while making sure inflation doesn’t go up too much. Which is why people that complain about debt have no idea what they’re talking about.
mostertoaster 10 hours ago [-]
The reason Trump won was because “the economy is doing great since Joe Biden”, meant the billionaires tripled their wealth as mega corporations went from less than a trillion market cap to more than 3 trillion, while me and millions others fixed salaries went up 5% if you were fortunate.
jquery 9 hours ago [-]
Biden governed far too much as a center-right President, I agree. Meanwhile Trump had those same billionaires with front row seats at his coronation. So the situation will continue to get much worse.
But all of this has nothing to do with the debt.
mostertoaster 35 minutes ago [-]
Those billionaires didn’t choose to inflate the money supply. I have no issue with them having assets that go up in value. That just doesn’t mean the economy is doing great. The point is there is way too much spending, and this includes Trump, yet it seems like they really are trying to make a dent in our federal spending, and Musk going in and looking at USAID, is quite awesome.
Trumps net worth actually went down from being in office, and so far so has Elon’s, so I ain’t worried.
amrocha 9 hours ago [-]
I don’t see how that’s relevant to the macro economics discussion, and I don’t see how Trumps tax cuts for billionaires are going to help you in any way.
18 hours ago [-]
timacles 15 hours ago [-]
> What do you think happens if the debt goes up? Do you think the government is gonna go bankrupt? That’s literally not how it works.
You're the one that has no idea what hes talking about.
Debt uncontrollably going up without something to balance it means exactly that. If the debt exceeds the GDP, which is where the US is clearly going, we are looking at a collapse of the US dollar and its global influence. Theres no telling what will happen after that because its unfathomable
This is also why the techbros are staging a coup on the US, so the US doesnt come for the billions when it goes bankrupts
amrocha 14 hours ago [-]
Japans debt is 300% of their GDP and yet their society seems to work a lot better than the US. Maybe there’s more to economics than debt ratios.
roenxi 14 hours ago [-]
Well, yes. Japan as a nation is a net creditor. Net creditor don't generally struggle when paying back their debts. The question of where the money will come from has an obvious answer. If the US was a net creditor then the story would be completely different.
roenxi 18 hours ago [-]
1. I don't think you have a theory for how it works.
> means you get deflation which is even worse than inflation
2. People regularly come up with this theory that prices dropping is a terrible thing. An extraordinary claim for which I've never seen an argument I accepted and the evidence is as thin as a rake. Typically the countries that experience the horrors of deflation go on to be unusually wealthy and prosperous - I'd like to see more of it. But it is easy to see why the governments would believe deflation is bad that since they are typically enormous debtors and inflation favours debtors.
Frankly I suspect that if prices go down all else equal most people will be better off and able to afford more stuff. Wild take, I know.
chr1 17 hours ago [-]
People who bring up this theory, bring the great depression as evidence, forgetting that the problem there was caused by the law forbidding to reduce salaries, which made prices going down equivalent to minimal wage going up, which of course leads to unemployment.
roenxi 16 hours ago [-]
Given the confusion around, eg, the 2008 financial crisis I just flat out reject that there was 1 lesson in the 1930s that was so unambiguous that the debate is settled. It is a ridiculous claim. There was so much going on and so many people always pop up in a crisis trying to muddy the waters to get their preferred policy through. Look at the minimum wage debate - still unsettled despite what I would consider overwhelming evidence in theory and practice. And whatever anyone's personal beliefs, if that can't be settled there is no way at all that the inflation/deflation question has a firm answer from one event in the 1930s.
Especially given that "prices always up"="good" is counter-intuitive and I can't find anyone with a clear argument in favour of inflation. There is lots of gobbledegook and occasionally people who make arguments equivalent to holidays being bad because they reduce economic output. Which is an argument but not very persuasive, I'd prefer to optimise towards an end state where I get to live out a permanent comfortable holiday; even if the economic metrics go down. I like comfort.
kristianbrigman 17 hours ago [-]
What countries did you have in mind? (Haven’t heard that before, would like to investigate)
roenxi 16 hours ago [-]
Well if I want to talk about inflation we have things like the Nazis, Zimbabwe, a long list of collapses that countries never really recover from. But if we look up deflation... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deflation#Historical_examples
EU - Still to see the long term consequences, but it isn't obvious the deflation was the bad thing in the story.
Hong Kong - Jewel of Asia.
Ireland - Very high HDI and GDP ppp per capita.
Japan - Economic success story.
UK - Can't argue that they're a success! But their problems after WWI wasn't the deflation.
US - Some good some bad, lots to debate, but the latest episode (Great depression in the 1930s) set them up to conquer the world and establish the Not-An-Empire they have now. If that is a bad outcome I fear the good ones.
I'm not seeing the Zimbabwe equivalent. In fact it looks a lot like deflation is associated with - if not a precursor to - long term economic success and prosperity.
kristianbrigman 15 hours ago [-]
Is there an example where you can explain how the deflation actually led to economic success? The above feel like very distant correlations more than a result.
'prices dropping' often includes labor as well, since currency is primarily a medium of exchange.
roenxi 14 hours ago [-]
I'm not arguing that deflation leads to economic success. I'm arguing the evidence that it is bad is nonexistent. Although it has some interesting interactions with the tax system and government policies.
If you go through the arguments, inflation/deflation are both mostly neutral because people just adjust their expectations by whatever they think the rate will be. In practice though inflation policy is typically masking money printing projects or policies that destroy wealth. And by reversing that, deflation is usually positive but only because it suggests that the political leadership at the time was interested in honest market signals rather than seizing an opportunity to conduct handouts.
> 'prices dropping' often includes labor as well, since currency is primarily a medium of exchange.
Inflation or deflation, by definition, doesn't impact how much someone can buy in real terms. Because wages and goods are theoretically changing at the same rate.
kristianbrigman 2 hours ago [-]
> Inflation or deflation, by definition, doesn't impact how much someone can buy in real terms. Because wages and goods are theoretically changing at the same rate.
From your earlier post:
> Frankly I suspect that if prices go down all else equal most people will be better off and able to afford more stuff. Wild take, I know.
As you mention above, this isn't likely to actually be that different.
But:
>In practice though inflation policy is typically masking money printing projects or policies that destroy wealth
Inflation rewards moving money into goods, and deflation rewards moving money out of goods. Generally, an economy where money moves around is better than one where it sits idle. Yes, it does penalize saving cash (), which offends many puritan mindsets (including mine), but it rewards risk-taking and committing your currency towards capital, both of which tend to make the economy more productive.
() - So, if your 'wealth' is in currency, then inflation does devalue your wealth. But if your wealth is in capital, that capital should fluctuate with the currency, and inflation doesn't devalue that.
amrocha 13 hours ago [-]
Deflation is bad because it’s literally your economy shrinking. It’s not prices dropping, it’s less spending across the board. Depending on your demographics you end up with huge unemployment numbers or a standard of living for the older generation that can’t be sustained by the new generation.
If you’re arguing a fringe point of view please make that clear up front. If I knew you think deflation is good I wouldn’t have ever replied.
And by the way, you say Japan is an economic success story because of deflation, but I guess you never bothered looking up their 300% debt ratio that they have been running for decades, exactly because they didn’t want deflation to ruin their economy.
roenxi 11 hours ago [-]
> Deflation is bad because it’s literally your economy shrinking.
Well, this comment is off to a bad start. What about a very small economy of 1 widget that can be produced and sold for $2 per unit time, then a technological change that causes the equilibrium to move to 2x widgets for $1 apiece in over the same time? The real production of the economy has doubled, and experienced 50% price deflation. The same basic scenario can be developed at any economic size and complexity. No unemployment. No standard of living drop. Just people affording more stuff.
Deflation, in fact, is literally not the economy shrinking. It is a systemic reduction in prices.
> And by the way, you say Japan is an economic success story because of deflation, but I guess you never bothered looking up their 300% debt ratio that they have been running for decades, exactly because they didn’t want deflation to ruin their economy.
This is pretty typical of anti-deflation comments in my experience - what are you trying to say here? Countries manage to overwhelm themselves with high debts with inflationary monetary policy too; the problem - if there is one - is the borrowing of money. It is hard to end up in debt without borrowing money and investing it unproductively. That decision is independent of monetary policy.
And I didn't say Japan was an economic success because of deflation. There wasn't a "because".
TeaBrain 11 hours ago [-]
>US debt as a percentage of GDP (i.e. our ability to pay off our debt)
US debt as a percentage of GDP doesn't demonstrate the continued ability to pay off the debt, since the ability to pay off the debt is dependent on that debt's interest. The issue with the debt in the current environment is that it is going to start rolling over into higher interest rates. If the debt is structured to pay higher interest then that lessens the ability to pay off the debt even if the debt as a percentage of GDP stays the same.
bux93 8 hours ago [-]
Ripping apart institutions is a great way to increase interest rates.
jimkleiber 7 hours ago [-]
Some people have a lot of unexpressed sadness and anger and fear from the pandemic (and housing crisis before that) and are projecting it on to indirectly or totally unrelated things.
Aloisius 21 hours ago [-]
Surely taxes/fees represent our ability to pay off debt, not GDP?
20 hours ago [-]
SubiculumCode 20 hours ago [-]
We have a fiat currency. The only real limit to the ability is its effect on inflation.
whimsicalism 13 hours ago [-]
there are distributional impacts from crowding out and potential long term effects on AS, never to mention that the inflation risks are very real… debt is likely already politically constraining the fed right now
roenxi 19 hours ago [-]
You're upgrading from a crisis that impoverishes a bunch of people to ... a crisis that impoverishes everyone. Unclear what the improvement was. And potentially literally how you get Hitlers running the government, inflation is one of those effects that breeds political instability.
SubiculumCode 19 hours ago [-]
I did not recommend an action. You are projecting.
roenxi 19 hours ago [-]
You said we - possibly there is a flaw in my grammer. How should I be referring to this "we"? Isn't the "I" to "We" transform applied to "you" still "you"? I thought "you" could be plural for groups.
I don't think going from "we" to "they" would be appropriate although in hindsight it might have been a better choice.
kristjansson 20 hours ago [-]
You’re describing the independent Inspectors General. That were summarily fired. Could they have had more power and independence? Sure. But there were real independent offices doing what you describe.
The problem is EM and DOGE are equating “fraud and waste” to “I think it’s wasteful”, which is a judgement the adversarial auditor should not be allowed to make.
UltraSane 16 hours ago [-]
Strange how the national debt increases much faster when the president is a Republican. Republicans love to run the debt up when they are in power and then use it as a weapon when they are not.
ChicagoDave 21 hours ago [-]
Our national debt is directly related to the 45 years of regressive tax policy.
cherrycherry98 14 hours ago [-]
The percentage of federal taxes paid by income looks like this:
Top 1%: 40.4%
Top 5%: 61%
Top 10%: 72%
Top 25%: 87.2%
Top 50%: 97%
Bottom 50%: 3%
That hardly looks regressive. Is there some other standard by which you are judging whether tax policy is sufficiently graduated enough?
I know you're making a good faith argument, but you're twisting the definition of regressive. For example, if a country has one citizen with an income of 1 trillion, and one hundred thousand citizens with an income of $10,000 each, the trillionaire would still pay over 99% of taxes even if taxes were proportional.
The point is that with severe income inequality, it is fair that the super rich pay a very, very high proportion of taxes. The 40.4% seems high for the "top 1%" of the population, but if you replace "top 1%" with their actual average income, the comparison is less misleading.
mitthrowaway2 12 hours ago [-]
Not the GP, but yes there is: The wealthiest people don't earn their wealth in the form of income.
the 25 richest Americans (by Forbes’ tally) paid a “true tax rate” of just 3.4% on wealth growth of $401 billion between 2014 and 2018.
altcognito 12 hours ago [-]
Now change it to comparing disposable income.
ChicagoDave 10 hours ago [-]
The Tax Foundation has a well-known conservative leaning mindset when they publicize data. They project the benefits for business and lower tax policy.
It is not a legit source for progressive tax policy.
The Congressional Budget Office has been the most reputable source for tax policy data. The current director was appointed by Trump 2019 and was retained through Biden's presidency.
The CBO is very wonky and so far as withstood partisan meddling by presidents.
unethical_ban 11 hours ago [-]
Impressive, very nice.
Now let's see control of assets.
mc32 21 hours ago [-]
What was the national debt to GDP ratio before income taxes were instituted? It wasn't even 10% between 1890 and 1910 --that's without the income tax.
miltonlost 20 hours ago [-]
And life SUCKED then. Absolutely no labor rights, food filled with sawdust, income inequality, bank runs constantly, no retirement.
The national debt increased because we increased the amount of the federal government does, it the income tax.
greatpatton 20 hours ago [-]
No healthcare, no public research to today's extent, no military etc. etc. Yes when your government is doing nothing normally it doesn't cost that much.
wyager 20 hours ago [-]
> And life SUCKED then
More than 100% of the net improvement is from tech and medical R&D, not the bloated military-welfare apparatus.
kristjansson 18 hours ago [-]
What created the conditions for that R&D to take place in relative security, and to be realize its return in a global marketplace?
ambicapter 21 hours ago [-]
Are you saying income taxes lead to an increase in the national debt?
mc32 21 hours ago [-]
You know how people borrow on future income?
Aloisius 21 hours ago [-]
We were doing that before income taxes.
Hell, we were borrowing before we had states.
concordDance 19 hours ago [-]
Have you done the maths to check if that would have fixed things?
ChicagoDave 18 hours ago [-]
No but it's not rocket science.
In 1960 the top tax rate was 91%. In 1980 it was 70%. Reagan dropped it to 35% and it's stayed below 40% since. Then add in that corporations and the wealthy have moved away from having normal income that isn't taxed (loans backed by assets) and you've lost half the tax revenue that paid for cheap housing, nearly free healthcare and public college and you have a healthy society and middle class.
But then to screw the pooch even more, Bush printed 5 trillion for his wars and two tax cuts. Trump printed money for his tax cuts too. (these expenses were never in the annual budget - they just printed the money)
Tesla, one of the richest corporations in our country just reported 0% tax in three years.
Our national debt has nothing to do with the annual budget and expenses, including USAID and helping Ukraine.
It is 100% because of tax policy.
Acrobatic_Road 18 hours ago [-]
While tax cuts do contribute to the national debt, it is not accurate to say the national debt is "100% of tax policy". Tax revenue as a % of GDP has been pretty stable for a long time.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S
So what actually is driving the national debt higher? The never popular answer is entitlement spending (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid) + interest, which is exasperated by an aging population. In fact, almost all future debt growth is driven by these programs. The rest of the budget is expected to balance out. Tax revenue is expected to increase, and discretionary spending is expected to fall as a % of GDP.
Hikikomori 7 hours ago [-]
How is social security adding to debt when its funded by payroll tax? And the government has borrowed 3 trillion from it.
Replace Medicare and Medicaid with a socialised 1 payer system as it would be much cheaper. The numbers I saw was that the current system costs 48t and 1 payer system would be 32t. And negotiate down costs and all materials and drugs on top of that.
Acrobatic_Road 1 hours ago [-]
>How is social security adding to debt when its funded by payroll tax?
Simple - the payroll tax doesn't raise enough funds to cover the full cost of the program. Even if it did raise 100% of the needed funds, that's still money Congress cannot tax a second time. At the end of the day, the government has two buckets: income and expenses. It doesn't matter whether some of that income is called "payroll tax", and some of it is called "income tax". Every cent raised through a payroll tax, is a cent that cannot be raised through an income tax, and visa-versa.
>Replace Medicare and Medicaid with a socialised 1 payer system as it would be much cheaper.
Yet...none of the advocates of a socialized healthcare system have ever put forward a real bill that can be rated by the Congressional Budget Office. Instead, they put forward shell bills which importantly lack any funding mechanisms.
> The numbers I saw was that the current system costs 48t and 1 payer system would be 32t.
The current system is divided between public and private spending. Even if you could reduce the overall cost to 32T, that's still a net cost increase on the public side. How will the government raise that money? The advocates for social healthcare never say.
Hikikomori 48 minutes ago [-]
I mean it ran at a surplus for 30 years until 2009 when boomers started retiring, still has over 3T in assets. How can you claim it's adding to the deficit?
If it's removed and replaced with nothing do you just let old people die in the streets? Or did you want to keep the tax but stop paying out? I don't see how the outcome is different then.
Increase income tax on the wealthy? It's not hard, you used to do it.
ChicagoDave 17 hours ago [-]
GDP is 27 trillion.
The government "borrowed" from the SS fund. That's why it's endangered. The money was there and it should still be there.
The government also screwed the postal service by taking their profits (one of the few things in government that actually makes one) and then yells at them for not making enough income.
We need a flat corporate and billionaire tax that has no loopholes.
Acrobatic_Road 2 hours ago [-]
The government borrows money from Social Security, and the government pays that money back with interest. So what you are complaining about is actually a transfer of money from the general fund into Social Security. And when we talk about the impending insolvency of Social Security, we're talking about the point at which this subsidy stops (because they won't have any surplus funds to lend), and the program is forced to cut benefits to match what payroll taxes bring in.
consp 9 hours ago [-]
Also very predictable exenditures over time, which increase with an aging population with decreased firtility rates. Which have little to do with actual firtility but are just a measure of kids vs parent ratio, it might play a role though. Everyone always forgets that it is entirely predictable but nobody does something about it because it hurts.
Also doesn't help if you borrow against the money put in. The US is not alone in taking money from the baby's/old peoples fund unfortunately, same happened here but worse the money was just taken. Although it was mostly spend on education and construction so there is that at least.
Daz1 9 hours ago [-]
>In 1960 the top tax rate was 91%
How many times does this need to be debunked?
jquery 9 hours ago [-]
I just googled it, and it's true. So there's nothing to debunk.
jimkleiber 10 hours ago [-]
We have it: three branches of government. But the political branch loyalty has been superseded by political party loyalty and it breaks the system.
What I think should happen is that the vast majority of legislators (Senators/Representatives) should be furious that the Executive branch is disregarding laws that they wrote themselves. And the justices should be furious that the Executive branch is disbeying their interpretation of the law.
rurp 20 hours ago [-]
Any remotely serious attempt to balance the budget will have to involve serious cuts to some or all of Defense, Medicare, and Social Security; along with tax increases, either new taxes or closing loopholes. Trump and Elon are completely uninterested in doing any of those things, and are in fact going to make them worse.
Indiscriminately firing federal workers whose salaries will collectively make up maybe one tenth of one percent of the budget is not at all about reducing debt, that's just the thin justification they are using the destroy any independence and competence within the government that might get in the way of their looting and corruption.
Anyone who thinks that Trump and Musk are serious about reducing the federal debt at this point aren't likely to be swayed by anything I say. But for anyone who genuinely believes that I hope you will look at what the national debt and deficit are right now, and then to check on them in a few years when both are dramatically worse. You will find that two of the most prominent bullshitters in the world are in fact bullshitting on this topic as well.
iNic 1 hours ago [-]
To add to this: specifically regarding random firings and loopholes. Every marginal dollar spend on the IRS brings in $5 to $9 in return to the government [*]. Yet they are firing IRS agents. More generally, we know, and the government knows, how to reduce the deficit because the CBO offers options regularly [%]. All of the big ticket items require some kind of healthcare cuts, which are all not fun. Note that they do not have any suggestions for cutting any part of USAID. The biggest saver would be "Eliminate or Limit Itemized Deductions".
Fast tracking into Banana Republic, Canada and Uruguay will remain as the last bastions of Democracy in the americas.
Hikikomori 6 hours ago [-]
Defense yes. But social security is funded by a payroll tax, not debt, and the government has borrowed 3 trillion from it.
A socialised medical system would be much cheaper than Medicare.
rewgs 18 hours ago [-]
> Any remotely serious attempt to balance the budget will have to involve serious cuts to some or all of Defense, Medicare, and Social Security; along with tax increases, either new taxes or closing loopholes. Trump and Elon are completely uninterested in doing any of those things
This. Right. Here.
throwitaway222 19 hours ago [-]
Easiest thing to do IMO is fund anyone that is over 18 that has paid into Social Security. Anyone younger - simple, reduce taxes to not include it. Phase that fucker out. Get rid of all but 10% of federal income tax.
Also, make all black budget projects that involve underground alien bases public and move it all private, so Elon and other people can just directly invest in those instead of coming out of our taxes through the DOD.
iNic 8 hours ago [-]
I am happy to cut government spending and increase government efficiency (obviously). I have so far not seen any evidence that DOGE is working is this direction. As I like to point out the marginal dollar spent on the IRS brings in ~$10 of revenue. If DOGE or Trump really cared about the deficit they would expand the IRS. They would take ease the burden of NEPA, but in the meantime increase the number of bureaucrats to make the process faster. They would reform the Paperwork Reduction Act. They would make it easier for government officials to handpick hires.
On the policy side they would push for port automation. They would get rid of the Jones act. They could standardize and simplify the tax code (& get rid of loopholes like stepped up basis)
Instead they are breaking random government websites, blocking & politicizing USAID (< 1% of budget), mass firing with seemingly no plan for running various orgs, trying to increase mass incarceration (?) and reinforcing captured markets (like TurboTax).
stfp 16 hours ago [-]
Haven't republicans been campaigning on reducing govt spending for like 50 years?
Aren't other countries adversarial enough?
I think these are made up concerns. By and large the US is dominant in the real world, and always will be given its size, location and cultural foundations. And that translates to being able to print and spent a large amount of money, which could be used to solve real world problems, such as:
- climate change and the need to transition energy, transportation over time with some urgency
- chronic housing shortage
- education costs
Instead they're focusing on fake problems and solutions that will make the real problems worse.
AdieuToLogic 16 hours ago [-]
> Haven't republicans been campaigning on reducing govt spending for like 50 years?
Not really. There is a political strategy Republicans have engaged during this time known as "Two Santas" which can explain it:
First, the Two Santas strategy dictates, when Republicans
control the White House they must spend money like a
drunken Santa and cut taxes to run up the U.S. debt as far
and as fast as possible.
This produces three results: it stimulates the economy thus
making people think that the GOP can produce a good
economy; it raises the debt dramatically; and it makes
people think that Republicans are the “tax-cut Santa
Clauses.”
Second, when a Democrat is in the White House, Republicans
must scream about the national debt as loudly and
frantically as possible, freaking out about how “our
children will have to pay for it!” and “we have to cut
spending to solve the crisis!” Shut down the government,
crash the stock market, and damage US credibility around
the world if necessary to stop Democrats from spending
money.
This will force the Democrats in power to cut their own
social safety net programs and even Social Security, thus
shooting their welfare-of-the-American-people Santa Claus
right in the face.[0]
Except that is inaccurate. With the exception of the Biden admin, Republicans have been increasing the national debt at a _much_ higher rate.
Both private and public dept have been rising rapidly since the 70/80's and the introduction of neoliberal policies. Real wages have stagnated, so Americans go into debt. Tax cuts for the rich, so the US has to borrow.
yodsanklai 18 hours ago [-]
> I would say the correct time to put any effort, whatsoever, into reducing spending, was 20 years ago.
Alternatively, it's possible to increase revenue.
mycall 13 hours ago [-]
The US government owes about 2.5 years of median salary to every American, but when an average work lifecycle is 40 years, it isn't too bad.
KennyBlanken 19 hours ago [-]
And guess whose fault that deficit is? Answer: Bush and Trump.
He campaigned (first time) to reduce the national debt and instead exploded it by giving massive tax cuts to corporations and the wealthiest of the wealthy.
> Trying to cut jobs/waste/find fraud is political/career suicide for anyone in government
US Government Accountability Office already existed to do this, without it being career suicide for those involved (at least until Trump began attempting to end it despite being nonpartisan)
nomel 21 hours ago [-]
They exist to report an ever increasing number and list of actions each year. The GAO needs more teeth to be effective.
kristjansson 18 hours ago [-]
They also need a congress willing to increase revenues or decrease spending.
JohnHaugeland 15 hours ago [-]
The things being done make the deficit worse, not better
watwut 21 hours ago [-]
There is about zero chance Trump and Musk will make debt smaller.
xnx 20 hours ago [-]
Actual debt won't get smaller, but reported debt can get smaller when they fire whoever is responsible for reporting that.
throwitaway222 19 hours ago [-]
Firing is what is needed, but it won't happen for people that report spending, it will happen for those that hide it.
You would have to cut entitlements if you're relying on cuts alone, and those require Congressional action to change. It's absolutely wild people actually believed Musk without spending a few minutes understanding the issue.
nomel 17 hours ago [-]
Is "not grow so fast" a worthy goal, by a department with an efficiency directive?
$250 - $500 billion are lost to fraud, every year[1]. That's near 40% of social security spending.
Certainly, building systems to search for and prevent fraud is a worthy goal. Solving for that is orthogonal to what is taking place (which is Musk and his loyal, inexperienced band of lackeys doing whatever they want without governance and oversight). Is all of USAID fraud? Does the executive branch have the authority to unilaterally shut the program? No, these are the actions of authoritarians.
unethical_ban 11 hours ago [-]
Everything Musk and Trump have done have been virtue signaling, removing oversight and political independence, gutting consumer protections, and pissing off our allies.
A Russian puppet candidate could not do more damage to this country than what the Trump administration is doing right now.
Nothing being done fights the large causes of fraud/waste/abuse. Nothing being done helps the cost of housing or the cost of healthcare or college or fuel.
The so called successes of the tariff wars so far have been done at the expense of our long term credibility as a nation.
stouset 20 hours ago [-]
Look at the growth of the national debt during the last Trump presidency.
mrguyorama 17 hours ago [-]
And Bush, and Reagan.
Find me a Republican president who did not increase the national debt.
achandlerwhite 20 hours ago [-]
They would have to reverse the deficit to start reducing debt and that is unlikely with a cost cutting approach.
bdangubic 21 hours ago [-]
start with the “defense” budget first, cut that by 95% and go from there… oh wait, that money is going to… :)
pstuart 16 hours ago [-]
Indeed. There's undoubtably fat to cut all across the board but anybody who decries government spending and waste and doesn't include the DOD as part of that is a hypocrite at best.
bdangubic 16 hours ago [-]
the fact that this comment I made was downvoted by more than 0 people tells you all you need to know about that :)
megaman821 16 hours ago [-]
I didn't downvote you, but tell how you would like to downsize the military's mission 95%. No overseas bases? No Coast Guard? No R&D? Just looking at a big number and saying "cut it" is easy, saying what to cut is hard.
pstuart 15 hours ago [-]
95% is overly aggressive, but that doesn't mean there's opportunities to trim fat.
Addressing the DOD's accounting failures is a first step -- famously admitted to by Don Rumsfeld:
Rumsfeld says, “Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track 2.3 trillion dollars in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building. Because it's stored on dozens of different technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible.”
There's zero incentive to cut waste -- in fact the opposite. At the end of the fiscal year it's SOP to spend every last penny in the budget on anything they can, just to ensure their budget isn't cut.
Afghanistan and Iraq cost the US ~$6T and we got nothing to show for it.
There's got to be a reasonable center between "God bless the US Military" and "Shut it all down".
skywhopper 21 hours ago [-]
You are way underreacting to what’s going on here. This is not about saving money, or trying to cut waste or fraud. Elon Musk has been posting wild conspiracies on X to justify what he’s doing. But the actual changes are reactionary and political. Accountability is long gone if someone like Elon is in direct charge of what bills get paid. Fraud and waste will skyrocket in these conditions.
preters 21 hours ago [-]
I am not a fan of Elon, but his companies are run very capital efficient. So why would "fraud and waste" skyrocket under him?
acdha 15 hours ago [-]
Tesla and SpaceX ran on government money. X is doing poorly enough that he’s suing former advertisers demanding that the courts force them buy ads.
He now has significant influence over all of those things. Official government communications are only being released on X, incentivizing people to use it. The next NASA contract is going to be awarded by people who know their boss’ boss’ boss’ boss’ boss owes his political career to the owner of one of the bidders. Last quarter, a quarter of Tesla’s net income was unrealized Bitcoin profits – and he’s pushing the government to subsidize Bitcoin so it can get the kind of adoption it hasn’t been able to achieve on merit!
This is why government ethics rules exist, and why high-level officials have public confirmation hearings. Even if he was incredibly scrupulous about not making decisions based on his own interests, it reeks of corruption and provides many avenues for potential abuse (e.g. what if China threatened to seize his factories unless he helped them get a better deal?). The federal employees he’s attacked have annual training reminding them that they can’t accept gifts over $20/year – and really shouldn’t even then – with consequences up to going to jail for a long time.
saturn8601 8 hours ago [-]
Hold on there, Tesla has repeatedly shown an amazing ability to cut costs of their products while improving functionality/quality.
Yes Tesla benefits from credits caused by other companies not meeting co2 targets set by the government but that wouldn't have been enough to save them from three near bankruptcies. And yes, they are still quite a ways away from being a leader in overall quality and consistency but yhey are executing extremly well in their R&D compared to other US car companies only to be outdone by the Chinese, certainly not any US company.
As someone solidly on the left, this has really frustrated me to no end with the typical lefist sources I watch. In 2025 Facts really matter but all I see are facts being omitted to push a narrative (ie. Elon wasn't the founder of Tesla, Tesla/SpaceX is just alive because of the government subsidizes, Elon does not know anything about how to make a car/rocket).
They cite his bad behavior or screwups in reforming Twitter but unless you have followed everything that Elon has accomplished/failed at you are lying by omission. This is especially dangerous now because by dismissing him as dumber than he really is, you are setting him up for surprise successes because people let their guard down.
This is what I see on /r/fednews at how shocked they are over how fast he is moving at his slash and burn.
You would have known this had you followed the whole Twitter saga very closely, the early days of Tesla where they ousted the original CEO for deliberately lying to the board, and the three near bankruptcies of the company where Elon pulled out hail mary after hail mary to save the company.
Hikikomori 6 hours ago [-]
When was Tesla founded and when was Elon involved?
Tesla is getting cooked by Chinese carmakers and only tariffs or outright bans can help. In EU their sales are falling quickly due to his salute.
stetrain 21 hours ago [-]
You don't see the conflict of interest in one person both controlling how public funds are spent, and running private companies that may have those funds directed to benefit them?
When Elon runs his companies, he is beholden to shareholders to use the company's resources effectively to generate and maintain value.
Who is Elon beholden to when managing public funding and programs as an unelected non-official? Who will vote him out when he wasn't voted in? Who will revoke his confirmation when he was never confirmed?
delabay 17 hours ago [-]
Trump is beholden to public support. Trump empowers EM. If EM loses public support and voters make their will known, the behavior will end.
What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support.
hackyhacky 14 hours ago [-]
> What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support.
Things have been moving quite quickly, so this seems like a premature judgement. Can you cite a survey that shows that levels of support for disbanding USAID, for example; or taking over the treasury system; or "deleting" DirectFile?
ban-evader 5 hours ago [-]
Democrats and their surveys.
hackyhacky 5 hours ago [-]
> Democrats and their surveys.
I am responding to a specific comment about public support. Besides surveys, what method would you suggest for accurately determining public support for particular policies? And leave your self-satisfied partisan snark out of it.
ban-evader 4 hours ago [-]
I couldn’t care less about measuring the popularity of the President a couple weeks into the term. You could ask a fortune-telling chicken for all I care.
I’m ecstatic about everything that’s being done to make the country better right now. We’re again moving in the right direction. That’s what matters to me.
hackyhacky 4 hours ago [-]
> I couldn’t care less about measuring the popularity of the President a couple weeks into the term. You could ask a fortune-telling chicken for all I care.
Then why are you responding to my objection to a post asserting the alleged popularity of current actions? Are you just interesting in spreading snark and bitterness without any thought or substance?
> I’m ecstatic about everything that’s being done to make the country better right now. We’re again moving in the right direction. That’s what matters to me.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that you're dumb. What's happening right now is vandalism of the government.
asciimov 16 hours ago [-]
> Trump is beholden to public support.
After the election he’s not. Only has to appease a handful of congress critters and a few wealthy people.
macawfish 10 hours ago [-]
Absolutely not
macintux 21 hours ago [-]
Corruption skyrockets when:
- Safety checks are dismantled
- Decisions are made at the whim of an executive
- Executives surround themselves with sycophants
throwitaway222 19 hours ago [-]
We have a worldwide internet service now.
We have electric vehicles (something that would not have happened without TSLA)
On the other side, the corruption is obvious with billions spent on 8 EV chargers.
svnt 19 hours ago [-]
Incredibly precarious world we live in where only one man could have enabled humanity to have EVs. Tell me more about this planet.
> So why would "fraud and waste" skyrocket under him?
TSLA doubled in value in the month after the election, despite the financials of the company going down. The only reason for the increase in share price is because the market expects Musk to benefit from Trump's corruption, in the form of less oversight and more government subsidies.
trilobyte 19 hours ago [-]
That's a very valid argument. Both SpaceX and Tesla are quite capital efficient. Maybe another angle to consider is what's being optimized for? What outcomes would be considered successful for these federal agencies? That's probably going to tell us more about whether the austerity measures that seem likely result in more efficient use of resources to create successful outcomes.
One thing that seems worth think through more is whether the stated outcomes of those agencies is what's actually be optimized for, or whether those are suborned for personal gain by a few parties.
zombiwoof 19 hours ago [-]
He is capital efficient because of foreign workers
ggreer 18 hours ago [-]
This is not correct. SpaceX is covered by ITAR and therefore cannot hire foreigners.
Of the approximately 70,000 Tesla employees in the US, fewer than 2,000 are H-1B workers. The rest are US citizens or permanent residents. Tesla's manufacturing is much more vertically integrated than other auto manufacturers, so they rely almost entirely on their US factories to produce the cars they sell in the US. Other auto makers tend to do more manufacturing overseas to save on labor/safety/environmental costs, then do final assembly in the US to avoid tariffs.
delabay 17 hours ago [-]
Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness.
Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy.
exe34 7 hours ago [-]
> Private enterprises are optimized for survival and fitness.
usually at the cost of the workers, environment, etc.
> Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy
they are designed for continuity because people die when they suddenly stop functioning.
kennyloginz 21 hours ago [-]
Look at the Boring company.
thomassmith65 20 hours ago [-]
JFC, he named a quasi-governmental agency "DOGE"! He may as well have called it "The Department of Pump"
And his buddy the president is happily sending the currency and stock markets up and down with his every idiotic tariff announcement. I wonder if the top man at DOGE is on the list of people who Trump tips off?
Musk, Trump and half this administration are off-the-charts corrupt.
wahnfrieden 21 hours ago [-]
They mean that he will divert or protect payments and credits going to his own businesses or partners. His interest in capital efficiency exists to generate profit for himself, not as a blessing for other orgs he provides as a gift. He did it with Twitter/X after he became owner of its profits.
If treasury money is diverted to his private interests, that is waste and perhaps fraud. But to him it achieves the same end (personal profit) as capital efficiency of orgs under his own ownership, not just his control
riskable 21 hours ago [-]
You said it! How long before a lot of small countries start leaving treaties like the Berne Convention? Why would they bother protecting other big countries copyrights when they're no longer getting support through programs like USAID and there's no longer any guarantee that the US will protect them in any way.
The first country to pull out has the chance to make like $100 billion by creating the next TikTok competitor that never takes down content for violating anyone's copyright. It'll be like Edison moving to Hollywood all over again! Let the gold rush begin!
rapht 9 hours ago [-]
You see the carrot vanishing... OK. But what about the stick?
The whole point of Trump's policy is 'we forgot the stick, let's use it again'. I see this true for international policy but you could probably extend that to that infamous DOGE: Fed agencies must be 'productive' (whatever that means), or else.
afavour 22 hours ago [-]
Never appropriate. The actions are entirely unconstitutional. If the US decided to disband USAID it would have to be an act of congress, unelected friends of the president don’t come close to being able to make that call.
jaggederest 21 hours ago [-]
In a sensu stricto it's illegal, but practically and regrettably they are able to make that call, because though there are rules against it, unless the sergeant at arms of the senate goes out and handcuffs them, nobody is going to stop them. When the executive branch and the judiciary both decide to ignore the legislative branch, what is the legislative branch going to do?
efitz 19 hours ago [-]
Our legislative branch is unable to even minimally fulfill its Constitutional duties.
We haven't declared war since WWII, but we've waged a number of them.
The Congressional budget process is fundamentally broken and increasingly nondemocratic - the leadership of both parties get "continuing resolutions" passed while they draft a mountainous "omnibus" bill that includes all their pork and graft, then they whip the members of the majority party to pass it without reading it.
The Congressional oversight committees are usually captured by the industries and/or agencies they oversee.
Congressional hearings are not used to inform Congress or the people; they're nakedly partisan acting gigs for committee members.
Congress has unconstitutionally delegated much of its authority to a bureaucracy run by the executive branch, intending to have it operate independently of the president. Now we have a president who is choosing to exercise his authority over the executive branch.
Of course, it is illegal and unconstitutional for the president to eliminate programs that are established by law. But remember the executive branch bureaucracy ONLY exists to allow the president to implement the laws passed by Congress. If the laws aren't explicit or delegate to an executive branch agency HOW they law/program will be implemented, then the president has enormous authority over how to implement it, and there is nothing Constitutionally wrong with that. So if the president says "we don't need 10000 people to implement CFR 1.2.3 section 4, we only need 10", and he can implement the law/program as passed by Congress with 10 people, then he's allowed to do that.
The big problem is that Congress MUST depend on the executive branch to, er, execute. Whatever is required to implement the law, that isn't specified in the law, is up to the executive branch, and the President is the head of that branch.
And all this BS about "classification" again only exists to enable the president to do his job. If the president says someone can have access to something, that is non-negotiable, as two USAID folks found out over the weekend. The bureaucracy has for decades used classification to make a currency out of secrets and to try to avoid oversight. Looks like that ride has ended.
tmountain 19 hours ago [-]
So, America has been dovetailing towards being a monarchy because Congress won’t do their jobs, and it was inevitable that a President would eventually arrive who would wield that power? If nobody is willing to enforce the law, and the majority willingly hand the keys to the democracy to a single individual with dubious intentions, is it best to just accept this as the “natural order of things”? The institutions that my generation was raised to respect as the foundations of the democracy seem to hold no weight or value, so it seems like the only thing left to do is just stand by to see what happens. I preemptively left the country last year and won’t be back anytime soon, so as sad as I am to see this day, I’m also strategically working to insulate myself from as much of the fallout as I can.
Aeolun 18 hours ago [-]
There’s tried and true solutions to these things. You can ask any Frenchman, they made a whole thing out of it during the last olympics.
captainbland 17 hours ago [-]
Really depends on the allegiances of the police and armed forces I guess.
UncleOxidant 15 hours ago [-]
Yep. When push comes to shove, I suspect more of them will side with the authoritarian since that's kind of the personality type that tends to get involved in these kinds of occupations.
whoisthemachine 19 hours ago [-]
The electoral college was created to prevent a majority from doing such things, but having the electoral college override the will of the people creates all sorts of problems (and possible tit-for-tat in future elections).
tmountain 18 hours ago [-]
Well, it would have been pretty damn nice to see it “activate” when a candidate with 34 felonies and two impeachments won the election, but that didn’t happen, so any supposed utility is immaterial now. I disagree with the entire concept in principle and do believe that the democratic vote should choose the candidate (even now). I just don’t think most folks actually know what they bargained for.
bonzini 18 hours ago [-]
I think a bunch of states actually make it illegal for electors to be faithless.
arcastroe 18 hours ago [-]
What does it mean for it to be illegal? If they cast faithless votes, would those votes stand, but then they open themselves up for prosecution? or would the votes not stand at all.
Terr_ 17 hours ago [-]
Yeah, the one useful feature I ever thought it might have would be as a check against a crazy-unqualified demagogue, and since then I have seen it fail spectacularly, twice.
IgorPartola 15 hours ago [-]
That was the original intent. It’s like a half way to a parliamentary system where the legislature elects a PM except here it is a separate one time use assembly.
Terr_ 15 hours ago [-]
In fairness to the framers, it was originally supposed to increase in size along with the growth of the House of Representatives.
DebtDeflation 15 hours ago [-]
The electoral college was created in the time before the Internet, computers, television, radio, telephone, telegraph, electricity, the automobile, the airplane, and the train. It was logistically impossible to have a national popular vote at the time. Even the gap between the election and inauguration was based on the time it would take a man on horseback to reach DC from the farthest point out in the country.
chairmansteve 16 hours ago [-]
"I preemptively left the country last year".
Where did you go? I am in a position to leave, but not sure where to go.
throwaway657656 15 hours ago [-]
Go where you have friends, family, or some clear reason to be. The fact that you are open to suggestions implies this is an aimless/distracting way to waste years of your life. Perhaps you have the type of trouble you can't run away from ? I am speaking from experience and hoping you don't give up on the US assuming your roots are here. Take a long vacation abroad as an alternative.
jart 16 hours ago [-]
The best safe space after the US is Switzerland.
If you move anywhere else, you risk making it worse for yourself.
One option is Taiwan which gives gold cards to people with impressive GitHubs.
UncleOxidant 15 hours ago [-]
> One option is Taiwan
Ummm... yeah, I think that could easily end up in the category of "making it worse for yourself" given the geopolitical risk.
coldtea 18 hours ago [-]
>The institutions that my generation was raised to respect as the foundations of the democracy seem to hold no weight or value, so it seems like the only thing left to do is just stand by to see what happens
What generation was raised to respect those institutions? Because the boomers were against them and their policies, and Gen X was cynical about them...
alexissantos 15 hours ago [-]
Millennials, I'd argue. During the 90s, culture at large painted a picture of stability and progress, all made possible by democracy. See Francis Fukuyama's The End of History for the kind of tone that permeated the time.
As we Millenials have gotten older, we too have seen through the veil and realized the system isn't perfect. More importantly, perhaps, we've seen the wide range of ways people react to this imperfect system. Some have chosen to undermine its very foundations to get their way, leaving many to wonder what we're left with if -- to loosely quote Whose Line Is It Anyway -- the rules are made up and the points don't matter.
UncleOxidant 15 hours ago [-]
The late 70s through the 90s were kind of our last stable period (the 60s & early 70s were tumultuous with Viet Nam and Watergate, and the 30s & 40s were dominated by Depression and World War). That all starts to unravel with 9/11 and the response to it (starting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that cost us $Trillions and didn't really help stabilize the region and ironically began the destabilization of the US).
Much as we like to kvetch about Clinton (and I've certainly done my share of it, and certainly much of the criticism has merit), if there was a "golden age" of America in recent memory, the Clinton era was it.
dinkumthinkum 15 hours ago [-]
America is not moving toward a monarchy. The idea that no one is willing to enforce the law is not true. There have been many criminals that have just been removed from the country and many more are in the process of being removed. I'm not sure what "handing the keys to democracy" means, if this is about the United States then that country is a constitutional republic. I'm not sure what leaving the country served, if it makes you happy great, but there is so much hyperbole on the left. The funny thing is that people at the highest levels of the left that pushed insane hyperbole, clearly don't even believe their own nonsense about Trump and the administration, with their sheepish smiles.
As far as the article, Musk is a mixed bag. On the one hand, I think it is a good idea to have an entity concern itself with improving the efficiency and reducing the bloat of the bureaucracy of the federal government and Musk is not a dummy, he is the richest person in the world and runs some quite high-profile companies. On the other hand, it is hard to deny Musk is a little bit of a buffoon: fighting with Asmongold on X over his clear lies about video games is sort of unbelievable, telling Americans to "F [themselves] in the FACE" if they don't want all high-skilled jobs in this country to go to H-1Bs, and various other sort of juvenile things. Having these kids that Musk has hired to run-around the federal government is probably not the best thing but I think this doomsday stuff is completely silly.
He also just pardoned a bunch of criminals who physically assaulted police, desecrated Congress, because… they were on his side? That’s simply unprecedented. I don’t need a “party leader” to tell me that’s wrong.
Hikikomori 6 hours ago [-]
It's silly but some of it is true. Curtis Yarvin is a monarchist and believes countries should be run as a company with a tech CEO as king, ska dark enlightenment. Peter Thiel believe in his ideas, he funded JD Vances career. Musk seems to be onboard, if not just to enrich himself and achieve his Mars goals. Other tech billionaires are as well.
Their goal seems to be to dismantle the federal government and buy up assets and land. Then form micro countries like above with themselves as king/CEO.
This concept (Congress failing) gets repeatedly stated in many contexts without sufficient pushback. It should be considered whether perhaps for organization so large its functioning quite reasonably. Much of the current outrage has been manufactured via a long game of propaganda since at least the Reagan era but probably longer.
chairmansteve 16 hours ago [-]
Yes. The country was doing very well until a couple of weeks ago. Now it's being dismantled.
Aloisius 18 hours ago [-]
> We haven't declared war since WWII, but we've waged a number of them
Which Congress authorized and funded.
Congress, historically, has made formal declarations of war only at the request of the President. No President has asked for one in decades nor are they required to make war.
ethbr1 16 hours ago [-]
Several presidents have asked for Congression authorizations (Southeast Asia, Iraq, etc.) which are tantamount to the same thing.
Furthemore, the Constitution's Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 specifically enumerates declaring war as a power of Congress:
They aren't the same thing at all. We've had Presidents ask for authorization without asking for a declaration since the 18th century - the Quasi War was the first I believe.
The precedent is well understood. The President may ask for authorization for any extended war and for a formal declaration, if desired. Then, and only then, will Congress act. Congress will not issue a declaration absent being asked by Commander of the military, for obvious reasons.
This idea that Congress is somehow not doing its job because it's not issuing a formal declaration that were not requested nor required, is simply nonsense.
Frankly, if requesting authorization was the same thing as requesting a declaration, then one could just as easily argue Congressional approval of funding for a war is a declaration.
ethbr1 13 hours ago [-]
A declaration of war or an authorization of force are both Congressional approvals for use of military force against an enemy of the state. I get that's inconvenient for your argument, but they're the same.
And the president doesn't have the authority to declare war on his or her own accord, full stop, because the constitution explicitly gives that right to Congress (and no other branch).
Any convoluted timelines around requests are immaterial to those facts.
If the president uses the military to attack an enemy of the state, without Congressional approval, that's outside of his or her authority.
selimthegrim 8 hours ago [-]
Not for purposes of the Alien Enemies Act they aren't the same.
incompatible 18 hours ago [-]
Didn't the Supreme Court judge that the president can't be prosecuted for crimes relating to his official duties? The only recourse is impeachment, and that requires the cooperation of his own party. The president can also pardon all the rest of his associates as required.
So good luck relying on rule of law.
elif 15 hours ago [-]
His official duty is not to subvert the constitutional process.
matthewdgreen 19 hours ago [-]
And yet all of the inefficiency of Congress and the Courts is better than the alternative, which is dictatorship with no guardrails. We've seen what this looks like in many countries, and nothing you say, do, or own will be safe.
tmountain 19 hours ago [-]
Right, the crusty 236 year old government is showing it’s age and has problems but has also resulted in an exceptionally successful country, so the logical solution would be to incrementally improve it, but instead, the voting populace just decided to burn it to ash; although, many are too politically ignorant to even understand the consequences of their decision.
lmm 17 hours ago [-]
> the logical solution would be to incrementally improve it
You can't, though. It's ossified too much. The constitution was always meant to be a living document, but now it's a sacred text for which new amendments are practically inconceivable.
Clubber 16 hours ago [-]
It's called a living document because you can amend it.
trilbyglens 19 hours ago [-]
Tariffs will soon educate them.
vkou 14 hours ago [-]
The markets expected the tariffs to be cancelled, and as if by magic, they just got cancelled.
Unfortunately, the speedrun to an autocracy won't be, the market's fine with that one.
api 16 hours ago [-]
How much of this is due to the fact that our congress is a hospice ward?
We desperately need term limits. Age limits might make sense too but term limits would mostly take care of that.
prpl 19 hours ago [-]
More succinctly -
"So Sue them"
It will take a long time to go through the courts, the courts may not care, and even if they do, you can usually appeal and drag your feet long enough that it doesn't matter. Oh, and bonus here, if you become president again you get another reset. It's illegal, but there's no recourse for action.
It's a DDoS on the legal system and he's got all three branches by the balls. The courts can intervene in some of the cases some of the time, but it won't intervene in all of the cases all of the time.
The only way forward here is if everybody in the federal government either does the same thing, or that they become so ineffective and unreliable at _their_ jobs that everything is slowed down enough for the courts to intervene.
jghn 21 hours ago [-]
Not to mention the majority of the legislative branch is at a minimum going to pretend they're all for it
ethagnawl 20 hours ago [-]
> going to pretend they're all for it
... right up until they pretend they're not and never were when the political winds shift again. Though, maybe the winds no longer shift in these parts ...
admissionsguy 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
dekhn 20 hours ago [-]
there was no massive popular mandate.
much of congress is actually just too afraid to say anything because they'll get labelled as RINOs and voted out.
jessepasley 20 hours ago [-]
This sounds like a popular mandate to me
dekhn 20 hours ago [-]
He got just under 50% of the vote. He won by 1.5%, a tiny margin, fourth smallest since 1900. That does not sound like a mandate to me. I also suspect many people who voted for him did not specifically consider what he would actually do.
willy_k 17 hours ago [-]
> I also suspect many people who voted for him did not specifically consider what he would actually do.
So far he has more or less adhered to the plans he and the rest of the crew that coalesced around his campaign over the summer and undoubtedly led to his election said they would do. I would argue that the campaign’s plans were the most accessible of any campaign so far - dozens of hours of discussion on podcasts and the like by him and potential cabinet members, and video addresses for specific policy plans on the agenda 47 website.
For example, Musk made it very clear that the intention with DOGE was to move fast and break things, saying (perhaps ignorantly) that if it turns out something was necessary, you just put it back.
ModernMech 12 hours ago [-]
You're saying they're doing the plan they said they would do, but Trump explicitly said he never heard of the plan they're now doing: "I have nothing to do with Project 2025.... That’s out there. I haven’t read it. I don’t want to read it, purposely. I’m not going to read it."
Judging by some of the surprised Pikachu responses from his voters I'm seeing, I think people took him at his word when he said he had nothing to do with it and never read it. Because he lied about his intentions to voters, you can't not say he has a mandate.
ipython 20 hours ago [-]
“Massive popular mandate” - citation needed
reissbaker 20 hours ago [-]
Why do you think it's illegal? USAID was established by an executive order by JFK, not by Congress; Congress only mandated that some agency for aid should exist, not that it specifically be USAID. Closing it and not replacing it with anything would be illegal, but closing it doesn't seem obviously illegal.
Edit: not only that, but they didn't close USAID entirely: they just closed the USAID headquarters, and installed Marco Rubio as the new head of USAID. While this may or may not be desirable, I don't see how this is actually illegal. The specific organization of USAID was established by executive order; this is one of the many consequences of the Republicans winning control of the executive branch of government.
magicalist 20 hours ago [-]
> Congress only mandated that some agency for aid should exist, not that it specifically be USAID
That was true in 1961, but not in the 63 years since then. The Foreign Assistance Act has been amended many times with specific requirements since written for the by then already existing United States Agency for International Development[1]
Nothing in that bill says that USAID needs a specific headquarters to be open, or that it can't be run by Marco Rubio. How is closing the HQ and assigning Marco Rubio to run USAID illegal?
magicalist 19 hours ago [-]
> How is closing the HQ and assigning Marco Rubio to run USAID illegal?
This framing seems disingenuous given the already far reaching effects of the frozen funding, the layoffs, the shut down of communications, the shuttered offices, and, apparently, giving non government employees unfettered access to its computer systems.
But yes, shutting down the USAID or trying to muddy the waters by saying it'll totally still exist, they'll just somehow run it out of the state department and not fund anything should indeed not be possible without an act of congress.
reissbaker 18 hours ago [-]
According to USC 6601 — which is the current law — the President literally has the power to abolish USAID entirely, and only has to submit a report about it to do it. [1] Saying that closing the HQ and assigning a Republican as the head of USAID is "illegal" or "should not be possible without an act of Congress" doesn't make sense. Congress already passed an act allowing the President to terminate USAID. Congress does not mandate that USAID exists forever, and does not prevent the President from terminating it or streamlining it.
I’m pretty sure it’s now 2025, which is more than 60 days after Oct 21, 1998. Therefore, the president does not have power to abolish USAID. Please try again.
reissbaker 18 hours ago [-]
Ah, my read of that was that as of October 21, 1998, the President would have to submit a report to close USAID (whereas previously the President did not have to submit a report). However, your reading makes more sense.
mrcode007 16 hours ago [-]
It’s not his reading. It’s the only reading.
ethbr1 16 hours ago [-]
Did you read the bottom? Clinton already executed this in 1999.
>> Memorandum of President of the United States, Mar. 31, 1999, 64 F.R. 17079, provided...
dragonwriter 39 minutes ago [-]
Uh, that obviously cannot be executing a power that expired 60 days after October 21, 1998.
(It was actually delegating power to revise the USAID reorganization plan—which was not a abolition—and to set the effective date of then part of the reorg that was not transfer of mandatory functions to the Secretary of State.)
tmaly 19 hours ago [-]
Are there any LLMs that can explain all the amendments to the layperson?
65 17 hours ago [-]
This is the most Hacker News comment I've ever read.
daveguy 16 hours ago [-]
Not if you want accurate information.
tmaly 45 minutes ago [-]
I have used it on Municipal Codes to explain things. I just don't have enough background on federal law and how amendments are stored.
mjburgess 20 hours ago [-]
That's not correct. Acts of congress specifically created the agency after JFK's XO.
Regardless, the agency is a party to contracts which it is currently breaking. The actions of DOGE are causing the US to break contracts, which is illegal.
alvah 17 hours ago [-]
A contract in itself is not law (though it can be legally enforceable), so how is breaking a contract illegal?
Furthermore, very likely any such contracts have language around the cancellation.
brookst 20 hours ago [-]
Interesting take. I think it applies to every agency? Shutter NASA, and any congressional act merely specifies an agency for aeronautics and space, not necessarily this exact one? As long as it’s eventually reconstituted, no foul.
I’m suspicious, but I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised we’ve hit the “one simple trick” era of governing.
reissbaker 19 hours ago [-]
No, NASA was specifically created by the "National Aeronautics and Space Act" [1], not by an executive order. USAID was created by executive order by JFK. [2]
The bill you link to specifically allows the President to abolish USAID: as it states,
Unless abolished pursuant to the reorganization plan submitted under section 6601 of this title, and except as provided in section 6562 of this title, there is within the Executive branch of Government the United States Agency for International Development as an entity described in section 104 of title 5. [1]
And here's the text of section 6601, which explains how to abolish USAID:
(a) Submission of plan and report
Not later than 60 days after October 21, 1998, the President shall transmit to the appropriate congressional committees a reorganization plan and report regarding-
(1) the abolition of the United States Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, the United States Information Agency, and the United States International Development Cooperation Agency in accordance with this chapter;
(2) with respect to the Agency for International Development, the consolidation and streamlining of the Agency and the transfer of certain functions of the Agency to the Department in accordance with section 6581 of this title;
(3) the termination of functions of each covered agency as may be necessary to effectuate the reorganization under this chapter, and the termination of the affairs of each agency abolished under this chapter;
(4) the transfer to the Department of the functions and personnel of each covered agency consistent with the provisions of this chapter; and
(5) the consolidation, reorganization, and streamlining of the Department in connection with the transfer of such functions and personnel in order to carry out such functions.
The President can abolish USAID, or can streamline it, or terminate functions within it, according to your own provided links, and only has to submit a report about it.
Fair enough; my initial read was that this meant that as of October 21, 1998 reports would be required (whereas previously they weren't), but honestly I think that was the wrong read and you're right.
bonzini 18 hours ago [-]
All you need is a time machine.
insane_dreamer 20 hours ago [-]
They’re not replacing it with anything. They’re defunding it.
llamaimperative 18 hours ago [-]
That's even more clearly illegal. The Executive doesn't determine where money goes.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:
> The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
dgfitz 19 hours ago [-]
Any plays on who is gonna win the Super Bowl? If I were you I’d find a betting market and put ALL my money on your claim.
Edit: Daww, no sense of humor?
insane_dreamer 16 hours ago [-]
No need to guess when they’ve already publicly stated it.
idiotsecant 20 hours ago [-]
This seems like a stretch. If I close Wal-Mart headquarters does Walmart still exist? For a little while, maybe. Warehouses will probably run on autopilot, people will still get paid for a bit, etc, but the company is walking dead. What they've done is effectively decapitate an agency without the consent of the legislature.
_petronius 21 hours ago [-]
Impeach! That's the prerogative, and the enforcement mechanism, of the legislative branch.
jacurtis 20 hours ago [-]
I mean you could impeach him again. But that's doesn't really do anything other than wave a finger at him and says "Naughty naughty".
Hell, the guy is able to re-run and win the elected office again after being impeached a few times during his previous administration. Congress needs to affirm his impeachment to force him out of office and that requires a supermajority, which will never happen. Trump could kill someone on national TV and he would maybe get impeached, but he'd have enough friends in congress defending his actions that he would still be president. I mean he's already a convicted criminal.
That's why he just doesn't care anymore and is going crazy as if no laws exist. Laws mean nothing to him. At worst they are an annoyance or noise to him, but he already proved that nothing can stop him.
ornornor 20 hours ago [-]
It’s fascinating to watch, from a distance. If I was a US resident, or worse: US citizen, I’d be terrified.
mrkeen 20 hours ago [-]
Your politicians are watching from a distance too, and taking note of what works.
Aeolun 18 hours ago [-]
We have a functioning political system, and not nearly as much power concentrated into the hands of a single person.
mrkeen 12 hours ago [-]
Three branches of government, two houses, mix of federal and state powers, checks and balances, an impeachment system, all that stuff?
Hikikomori 5 hours ago [-]
Our elected officials don't have any direct power over government agencies (ministerstyre), they create laws that the agencies need to follow. Then we have independent bodies that can investigate and remove bureaucrats that don't follow the law.
Now are there any cracks in this system? Probably. But we dont have a president with unlimited power than can only be checked by congress at this point.
Aeolun 7 hours ago [-]
I think key is not having an executive branch that consists of a single person and/or party.
pseudalopex 16 hours ago [-]
For now.
easyThrowaway 9 hours ago [-]
Eh, they've already seen that with the balkans and eastern bloc countries in the 80-90s. You're gonna get a bunch of Orbàn-like small time dictators on every state that once on a while have to bow to the requests of a central-government more interested in its own political intrigues than governing anything.
US Doomers are expecting something similar to the Civil War movie in the next few years, the reality will be more similar to "The Lives Of Others".
senectus1 17 hours ago [-]
yes, I've noticed a huge uptick in the right wing party using almost exactly the same language and bullshit moves.
20 hours ago [-]
bigiain 20 hours ago [-]
Fiveeyes resident here, and not quite "terrified", but at least "deeply concerned".
"The rest of the world" will not carry on unscathed if the worse end of the range of possible outcomes for the US happen.
(I'm deeply curious about how fiveeyes intelligence operations with Canada are going right now.)
iancmceachern 20 hours ago [-]
We are
efitz 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
IX-103 18 hours ago [-]
Good luck with that.
And I say that as a fellow US citizen that has born witness to the abuses of the current bureaucracy.
Good luck with that.
By flagrantly violating the laws and constitution they are doing more than dismantle the bureaucracy. They are removing the very protections that exist to protect you from the petty bureaucrats that you disdain. A government as large as ours cannot function without a bureaucracy, and there is no guarantee the current one's replacement will be as free from corruption, sycophancy, and pettiness as our current one (despite its flaws).
In fact there is ample evidence the new bureaucracy they are creating has just one goal - to do whatever their dear leader asks of them. Try to criticize Nazi rhetoric on X and see how long you last. Now imagine the apparatus of government with the same bent. Only when governments "ban" you they have ways of making you disappear.
You think yourself safe. But everyone is guilty of something. And under a government unrestrained by the rule of law there is nothing to protect you should someone in power take offense. And someone will take offense eventually. Maybe you cut some official's ex-wife's former roommate's cousin in traffic. Or maybe you just say something one day that contradicts what the dear leader says the next.
This is a direct escalation and weaponization against "people whose only crime was to disagree with the party in power," is it not?
Or have you been so "abused" by the pronoun mafia you can no longer see straight?
efitz 19 hours ago [-]
What does a mixed-truth Snopes article about a dumb law proposed in Tennessee have to do with anything? The law sounds dumb and I would be wary of anyone proposing or voting for such a law, but I’m not a citizen of Tennessee so ???
DrillShopper 19 hours ago [-]
> I am now WAY less terrified that the bureaucracy will be weaponized against people whose only crime was to disagree with the party in power.
As a bisexual queer lefty computer programmer I wish I shared that confidence, as does ever queer or trans person I know.
efitz 17 hours ago [-]
I likely disagree with a lot of your political opinions, but I want nothing bad to happen to you. If you were my coworker or we encountered each other in public, I would treat you with respect unless you disrespected me.
I see lots of changes to the extent that we will no longer “celebrate” or subsidize LGTBQ+ or DEI issues with public funds. That seems fair to me, I don’t expect public funds to be used to celebrate my lifestyle and sexual preferences. I think that flying an LGTBQ flag over an US Embassy in another country where the citizens overwhelmingly oppose such ideas, does not further any American interest. It just makes working with such countries more difficult.
I also don’t believe in equity in the sense of discriminating against people now for wrongs of the past. I believe strongly in equality and in merit based opportunity that is not in any way tied to immutable characteristics.
I do not see any action that the government has taken as endangering anyone. I would vocally oppose any policy that I thought would harm someone (except I don’t think ending a benefit is a harm in this context).
afavour 17 hours ago [-]
> I do not see any action that the government has taken as endangering anyone
I’m curious how you view the executive order that moves transgender women into men’s prisons. To me those prisoners are now in a danger they were not previously.
efitz 16 hours ago [-]
It is the job of prisons to protect prisoners from violence by other prisoners. I strongly support firing wardens that do a poor job of that.
afavour 15 hours ago [-]
The solution to the problem is separate. The executive order could have included language about protecting prisoners from violence but it does not. Can you agree that the executive order increases the danger that person is in?
efitz 24 minutes ago [-]
The executive order could have included all sorts of "remember to do your job" directives to prisons.
I don't agree with the framing of the question. Men's prisons are typically more violent than women's prisons. So from that perspective, statistically the person is in more danger. However if we only look at that, we would transfer everyone to women's prisons.
You are implying but not stating that there is some extraordinary targeting of trans women by prisoners in men's prisons. I don't know if that is true or not but it seems plausible. My argument is that since prisoners are intentionally kept in a defenseless state, that it is the job and moral duty of prison staff to keep prisoners safe from each other, regardless of who the prisoner is. If a specific prisoner is at unusual risk of violence (like a convicted police officer, for example), then I expect that prisons have processes in place for that.
DrillShopper 3 hours ago [-]
The process of hosting a transgender woman with a violent prisoner is called v-coding, and it's done in order both to punish the transgender woman and reward the violent prisoner. This has been an unofficial policy on many levels of corrections for decades, and is not new. Firing a few wardens won't fix it, and often complaints are ignored and/or swept under the rug.
If this is something you didn't know, Google it. Don't take my word for it.
efitz 17 minutes ago [-]
I don't doubt this is true. We see many law enforcement abuses of this sort[1] and I want any such abuses investigated and the perpetrators severely punished.
But you are implying that because that might happen, the transgender woman should be left in the women's prison. But that carries its own risks[2] which ALWAYS get left out of these discussions. I do not automatically believe in the sincerity of men, especially those with a history of violence against women, when they arrive at prison and only afterwards declare that they are trans.
But female prisoners are now at less risk, because they're no longer being forcibly incarcerated with male prisoners, thanks to this executive order. In federal prisons at least.
DrillShopper 3 hours ago [-]
Fuck off transphobe
uffle 3 hours ago [-]
Responding with insults doesn't help your argument.
DrillShopper 3 hours ago [-]
I'm not arguing with transphobes lmfao
uffle 2 hours ago [-]
You don't have an argument, so you resort to insults instead.
DrillShopper 3 hours ago [-]
> I don’t expect public funds to be used to celebrate my lifestyle and sexual preferences
End the child tax credit and extra tax exemptions for being (straight) married then or shut the fuck up because the amount of money going to subsidizing that is much, much, MUCH more than what is spent on LGBTQ+/"woke"/DEI stuff. If you care about the deficit, go for those first.
efitz 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
lmeyerov 19 hours ago [-]
It's a terrible opinion and free speech means people can call out harmful beliefs and behavior. Society is all about establishing social norms, so it's almost an obligation. You are free to be wrong and ostracized.
efitz 19 hours ago [-]
What exactly is terrible about it other than that you disagree?
lmeyerov 18 hours ago [-]
Most immediately, all the people and services directly impacted. Then second order effects like the continued collapse of rule of law and related operational aspects like the systematic stripping of cybersecurity layers. Magnified by all this happening in one of the largest countries in the world + with most other countries and their process/people. Ex: Halt of congressionally-approved funding of hospitals, schools, and cyber defense teams, and mass layoffs around the same.
It might be amusing when you are personally comfortable and do not consider the people and processes involved, but basic digging reveals this stuff. I happen to work with people like doctors, first-responders, cyber teams, military, scientists, etc whose communities are in a tailspin. It's quite vivid, and I am confused how this is even a question. The ability of people to get life-saving care is literally being removed as perishable supplies are running out and staff are working pro-bono.
A top misinformation tactic is asymmetric trolling: Ask a simple question to force the responder to spend all their time. It's hard to tell if your question is from naivete, privilege, apathy, a broken media diet, trolling, or what.
efitz 18 hours ago [-]
Thank you for taking time to write a response in good faith.
I was not trolling; I sincerely believe what I wrote.
I do not believe that anything the federal government does that is time sensitive (social security payments, etc) is being affected.
I believe that termination of programs will require Congressional action.
However I believe that there is a lot that the President is Constitutionally authorized to do, that will limit what agencies do and control how they do it, and that the courts will not be shy to step in if the administration even has the appearance of acting unconstitutionally.
I do not think that we are in any way at risk of dictatorship; I think we are quickly moving away from that since Biden left office.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree in good faith, and my disagreement is neither trolling nor uninformed parroting of social media; it’s informed by my understanding of the Constitution and the structure of government it created.
I hope I am right in my predictions and you are wrong, because I don’t want the outcome that you fear may happen.
lmeyerov 17 hours ago [-]
You are already wrong - hospital care is impacted, schools are/were shutdown, etc. I think you should ask yourself why you are so wrong and unaware on such basic things, and why you do not value them as much as the people reliant on them.
efitz 17 hours ago [-]
Please name a school that was shut down as a direct result of any Trump administration executive order. I see lots of hyperbolic news articles speculating about such shutdowns, but I do not see any actual closure.
Also, you’re going to have to be more specific about what hospital care was affected and how it was affected.
If a hospital happens to have a research wing and processing a grant proposal for researchers associated with the hospital takes a little longer than usual, I hardly consider that a crisis.
lmeyerov 16 hours ago [-]
If you've ever been involved in operating small businesses or NGOs, or even harder, making one, you understand how fragile things are for someone to abruptly rugpull on even a small number of pay periods:
The Head Start schools are pretty hard to miss as having been on blast in the media around notifying layoff notices, closures, etc being only paused last minute due to court orders
A lot of basic domestic + intl'l social programs & safety nets run on state + federal grants, and ironically, that is especially true of the Republican/MAGA preferences of non-gov religious, community chartered, etc independent charities & non-profits. A lot are on shoestring budgets - stressing these further is a terrible idea.
RE:Telework, core operational areas like cybersecurity, especially with the COVID flip 4 years ago, is now telework, and those contracts are canceled. Likewise, more qualified positions are often by special renewing appointments, so those are now failing to renew too. Most American families cannot handle multiple missing payperiods, and thus cannot afford to play chicken with the rich or apathetic on this: they're told they're fired, so even if they haven't resigned, they have to interview. With the purse strings coming into the control of those who the courts are disagreeing with, rent wins: that's part of the point. It's already hard to staff these positions given they're underpaid to beginwith, especially when regional, so this is another self-inflicted wound.
This stuff is not hard to search. Systems are more fragile then they may seem from a comfortable techie background in affluent and otherwise self-sufficient regions. I think it's a fair position to want the US to have little power in the international stage, not use its wealth to save lives, etc, and that's something to vote etc on. But rugpulling essential services in illegal ways and unilaterally breaking society is a different thing, and again, not seeing that is pretty terrible and worth calling out.
My 'deja vu' here is when COVID broke out, and while my extended network was working long hours in labs trying to sequence the virus... others were encouraging people to go to restaurants. I'm actually disinterested in the politics. I just want society to avoid breaking from stupid unforced errors. Pulling the cord on people and processes en masse sounds fun if you do not understand operations and sociopathic if you do.
ban-evader 5 hours ago [-]
You’re using so many words to say “these people need your money to live and it’s immoral to take it away from them.”
Let there be no mistake about this — if my hard earned money is being stolen from me and distributed to others, I want that to stop. I don’t care what happens to the people who they are being given to.
hackyhacky 4 hours ago [-]
Do you consider all taxes to be theft? Then yes, your money is being stolen from you. Maybe you should move to a country with no taxes.
On the other hand, most people accept that taxes are necessary in order for the government to provide services. The disagreement is fundamentally over which services are necessary. In considering this, know that keeping other Americans able to work, live, get health care, life in safety, etc, is beneficial for everyone, even you.
ban-evader 4 hours ago [-]
Yes. There’s no way around it.
I should only move to another country in the same capacity as you for being upset about the size of the government being reduced right now. We all have our political opinions and “you should just move” is a lazy and stupid non-argument to make.
hackyhacky 4 hours ago [-]
> . We all have our political opinions and “you should just move” is a lazy and stupid non-argument to make.
No, these are not the same, because your position is untenable. I disagree with decisions being made right now; my preferred policy solutions can be accomplished with moderate taxes and legislative solutions.
On the other hand, your preferred solution involves no taxes at all, because you believe that tax is theft, so you want to eliminate all taxes, and that's not how countries work. My response to your unrealistic preferences is an unrealistic proposal; that seems entirely fair to me.
It is, instead, your naive ideas about how to run the government that are lazy and stupid; it's like you haven't studied history or government at all and are clinging to some 13 year old Ayn Rand fan's ideas of libertarian utopia.
ban-evader 4 hours ago [-]
I didn’t mention my preferred solution in any manner.
All the best to you, a person who tries to maintain a facade of rationality and objectivity in HN political discussions. That facade crumbled easily.
hackyhacky 4 hours ago [-]
Oh, sorry. When I asked "do you think all taxes are theft" and theb you said "yes", I foolishly assumed that you consider taxes to be theft. How irrational of me!
But sure, enjoy your performative intellectual superiority. I'm sure lots of people are impressed.
lmeyerov 46 minutes ago [-]
Ok so now it is getting explicit. So some things you dislike are getting cut, and because that is without due process and at illegal levels, causing excess harm that is serious & irreparable, eg, even deadly in some cases. You approve.
Next: People don't know what they are destroying and what other damage that will cause. Operations are fragile even without mass rug pulling. So that is another level of sociopathy to accept.
These come back to either being unaware or apathetic, which get back to social norms and ostracism.
lmz 18 hours ago [-]
Just remember how they "ostracized" you for being "wrong" now, keep silent when in enemy territory, and smile when you vote against them next election.
efitz 17 hours ago [-]
You just described the last 4 years for me.
But I will not ostracize you for having a different opinion than me, nor will I downvote you, nor will I attempt to dox you, nor will I demand your posts be censored as “misinformation”, no matter how much I disagree.
I might screenshot something you say and make a meme out of it though :-) And you are free to do the same.
19 hours ago [-]
19 hours ago [-]
dinkumthinkum 15 hours ago [-]
It's worse to be a US citizen? Then why are so many people coming in the US and why are so many people upset about removing the ones that come here illegally? It seems like people should be happy the federal government is giving them free rides away from here if it is so bad ...
proggy 20 hours ago [-]
Giving up the power to do the one thing you are constitutionally permitted to do, just because it doesn’t work for one particularly teflon-coated individual, is incredibly short-sighted.
Yes the reality of the situation is bleak. But to give up on impeachment would cede even more power to the executive branch.
elif 15 hours ago [-]
I think you are assuming too much love for the guy exists in the Congress which he is effectively obviating.
As the economy crashes, proletariat sentiments will change. If trump is unable to get a war going, or it doesn't develop how he expects, the economy will be the obvious narrative. And if they get trump out before midterms, his endorsement isn't the same thing.
vkou 13 hours ago [-]
> I think you are assuming too much love for the guy exists in the Congress which he is effectively obviating.
You're assuming that the founders were actually correct about a power rivalry between the branches producing a system of checks and balances between them.
As it turns out, when the whole team is rowing in the same direction, congress doesn't actually care that they've abdicated power or all responsibility to check the executive. Their personal comfort is not threatened by it, and this particular congress doesn't care about governing well.
Sure, the republic will be destroyed, but in the meantime, they'll extract a lot of value for their paymasters.
Congressmen that had a spine, and refused to do that all got primaried out.
disgruntledphd2 10 hours ago [-]
Which is why the less Trumpy republicans should have supported the anti gerrymandering acts at the start of Bidens term. The primary problem only exists because of gerrymandering.
maxerickson 20 hours ago [-]
The Senate didn't find guilt last time. If they do find guilt, the office is stripped. I don't think it's happening anytime soon, but the failed impeachment doesn't really speak to the consequences of a successful one.
croon 18 hours ago [-]
> The Senate didn't find guilt last time.
That's not true, most just relied on him being a former president at the time of impeachment.
McConnell:
> “Former President Trump’s actions that preceded the riot were a disgraceful, disgraceful dereliction of duty…There’s no question — none — that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day… There is no limiting principle in the constitutional text that would empower the Senate to convict and disqualify former officers that would not also let them convict and disqualify any private citizen. ...The Senate’s decision today does not condone anything that happened on or before that terrible day.”
It's true in the meaningful, procedural sense, which is obviously what someone would mean with "find guilt".
idiotsecant 19 hours ago [-]
He'll wear an impeachment as a badge of honor. The rule of law is a mostly self-supporting system. When nearly the entire edifice of government stops being concerned with it, the system breaks irreparably. We're looking at nothing less than the fall of the Roman empire in speed run, in my opinion.
IX-103 18 hours ago [-]
They'll 25th him before they consider impeachment. Right now Trump is just a useful idiot being puppeteered by the Silicon Valley elite. They got "Just Dance" Vance as VP, so they have a good backup.
All they would really need to do is take the existing Trump "speeches" and present them as the.word salad they are too prove him incapable of serving. That story would viewership so the media would be all over it 24-7. That's one reason Trump is rubber-stamping everything Elon says or does - he knows they have him by the balls.
kcplate 19 hours ago [-]
Good luck with that. He is in for the next four years and will finish his term.
Impeachment and removing him from office means the dems will need to control congress. Which can’t happen until 2027. Then, those dems will need convince at least a double digit count of GOP senators to vote to remove him and not care about facing the wrath of the MAGA base…just to get him out a couple of years before term limits do?
Aeolun 18 hours ago [-]
> term limits
I kinda imagine the next 4 years will work hard towards the singular goal of eliminating those. Or he might just ignore them with a whole lot more preparation than the badly organized insurrection of last time.
willy_k 17 hours ago [-]
He wanted the national guard there. What you’re saying isn’t any better than someone parroting some Newsmax theory about depopulation. There’s no real substance behind your claim, just mischaracterizations and innuendo repeated ad nauseam so people view it as fact.
ethbr1 15 hours ago [-]
He did. But I think Republicans in general (and Trump in particular) are being incredibly disingenuous about the National Guard thing and trying to blame {not even calling it a riot anymore} Jan 6 on Pelosi.
Why wouldn't Pelosi want the National Guard there?
Putting a bunch of moderately trained military in a chaotic situation with angry civilians is a recipe for disaster.
And if they'd opened fire on the crowd? Do you really think Trump and the Republicans would have backed that use for force?
After how they treated the United States Capitol Police officer who shot Ashli Babbitt for climbing through a broken window into the Speaker's lobby, after ignoring multiple orders to stop?
kcplate 18 hours ago [-]
It takes much longer than 4 years to amend or unamend (which would be required in this case).
He’s out in January 2029 without a doubt.
popinman322 17 hours ago [-]
The executive branch is currently ignoring the law. Why would they start following it in 2029?
hedora 16 hours ago [-]
He's already floating the idea of a third term, and the house is considering a constitutional amendment that would allow it.
Of course, that'll be a moot point if he continues to just ignore the constitution as he has been so far this entire term, and the other two branches continue to just let him.
willy_k 15 hours ago [-]
Source?
kcplate 15 hours ago [-]
Do you understand how long and what it takes to ratify an amendment? There a reason why we haven’t done one in 33 years and that one took 202 years. The process is designed to be difficult, it’s much more than a simple majority and bang of a gavel.
We are still working on approving the equal rights amendment. That’s one that started 102 years ago, and we have been trying to get the 3/4 state’s agreement for it for only 53 years.
So no, I seriously doubt with a 50/50 divided electorate in this country that we will repeal the 22nd amendment in the less than 4 years that the US would have to do it before Trump could run again.
kcplate 16 hours ago [-]
The executive branch from 2021 through 2024 ignored some laws too. That’s what executive branches do…”selective enforcement”.
dinkumthinkum 15 hours ago [-]
The democrats will have to convince enough voters that what they really want is to turn the entire country into California. I'm not sure that will be a winning strategy. Judging by the most recent DNC shenanigans, I don't think they learned very much from the last election.
21 hours ago [-]
20after4 21 hours ago [-]
Trump has already been impeached a couple of times. That definitely isn't happening with a conservative majority in both houses of congress.
sverhagen 20 hours ago [-]
Okay, another nitpick, but it's not because the majority is _conservative_, is it? If they truly voted from conservative principles, _some_ possible actions of the administration could offend them enough to impeach. It's probably more correct to say that it definitely isn't happening with a loyalist (MAGA) majority?
0xffff2 19 hours ago [-]
In the US, "conservative" is synonymous with "Republican" and "Republican" is (so far, at least) synonymous with "MAGA loyalist", so it's really splitting hairs to call out the alleged difference.
netsharc 18 hours ago [-]
I thought one of those synonyms was going to be "spineless". It's amazing how many lines on the sand the fascist has crossed, but despite some Republican noise, in they end they vote to protect their job and its perks (like info about stock movements before they become public, amongst the many other forms of corruption) rather than to defend their principles. But then again, the Vichy Democrats are quiet too, they're too chickenshit to escalate and call out this enemy of the constitution.
I grew up in a "democracy" with rigged elections and decades of one president. From TV we thought "Oh, America is such a better place, the politicians are clean, the cops are honest and can't be bought...". Hah, fucking Hollywood fairytales.
trealira 17 hours ago [-]
Yep, you're right. When I was a kid during the Obama years, I was even proud of our country. Now I realize that it and the conservatives in it are basically no different to Putin and his followers in Russia, and the liberal opposition party is spineless and feckless at best, complicit at worst. We may well have an autocoup soon, if we haven't already. I hope to be able to leave this country before that point, but until then I can only attend protests, even though they seem ineffective at effecting change. I hate everything.
markhahn 16 hours ago [-]
"Capture" is the basic theme of current US government. MAGA capture of the Republican party, for instance. Regulatory capture by by various industrial sectors.
Olumde 18 hours ago [-]
Republicanism used to mean something. Now it means whatever Trump wants.
Martin Bormann's son: "What is National Socialism?"
Bormann: National Socialism is whatever the Fuhrer says it is.
Republicans in the US have made being culturally regressive and staying on top as a demographic (white straight christian men) a cornerstone of their politics since the civil rights era. That’s what it has meant to be a Republican for generations.
chgs 19 hours ago [-]
No true Scotsman?
acdha 16 hours ago [-]
I don’t think so. The Republican Party had some pretty consistent positions for the better part of the last century, until those got in the way during the Obama era. It’s not like it was perfect before but when it came to questions like “is the President above the law?” or “is Canada an ally?” you could predict how most of the party would side. Stuff like granting unappointed people control over multiple agencies, running roughshod over the national security process, trying to impound huge chunks of the budget, etc. wouldn’t have flown even in Trump’s first term before they finished purging non-loyalists from the party.
BolexNOLA 19 hours ago [-]
This is what US Conservatism looks like. You get with Trump's program or you get primaried out. Simple as that.
cogman10 21 hours ago [-]
Dems should bring up articles of impeachment yet again. It will fail in the house and if it doesn't the senate won't convict. But that's really not the point right now. The dems need to get off their asses and actually message that "hey, this isn't right or normal" and make the republicans defend the behavior.
reissbaker 20 hours ago [-]
How exactly are Democrats going to do that considering they don't control the House or the Senate? All that's required to block impeachment is a simple majority to kill the resolution. The Republicans control a House majority and can schedule those kill votes whenever they want. They don't need to defend anything, they can just vote to kill the measure.
Not only that, but the impeachment first needs to make it past the House Judiciary Committee, which is controlled by Republicans and chaired by Jim Jordan. Democrats have no tools to impeach. Their best bet is to focus on the midterms.
Elections have consequences.
brookst 20 hours ago [-]
Too simplistic.
Democrats can’t force an impeachment, but they can try to find a handful of Republicans who still care about the rule of law. They can continue to make the case all day, every day.
Assuming that a policy can only be achieved if you can ram it down opponents throats is a sad commentary on just how authoritarian the US has become.
evan_ 16 hours ago [-]
> they can try to find a handful of Republicans who still care about the rule of law
there simply are none
reissbaker 19 hours ago [-]
America is a democracy, and the Trump won the election, and the Republicans won the majority of elections in the House and the Senate, and by virtue of those elections they also control the Judiciary Committee by a wide margin which can block attempts at impeachment. Trump is not going to be impeached less than a month into his term for doing exactly the kind of things he said he was going to do during his campaign. The best bet for Democrats is to focus on winning the midterms. Impeachment is not a serious option.
afavour 17 hours ago [-]
A lot of politics is purely performative. I’d wager over 50% of presidential candidates in any given election know full well they have no chance of securing the nomination but run anyway to build up their profile for a cabinet position or a future run.
Making a noise today about impeachment would be similar. It would play into a strategy for winning the midterms. It’d generate more headlines about the blatant illegality occurring under our noses, it’d be a stick to beat rivals with come election season. No, there would be no hope of it actually resulting in an impeachment, but that would be beside the point.
LightBug1 18 hours ago [-]
Not the point. The point is to signal (to stand against, to protest) that what the current wankers in charge are doing, shredding up what little decency was left in Washington, is not normal, is wrong, and moving the needle one more small notch towards fascism.
From afar, it's grotesque seeing what's happening over there. Perhaps you're too close to see it.
jquery 8 hours ago [-]
He's following the Project 2025 playbook and during his campaign he specifically claimed he would not be implementing Project 2025.
Democrats were warning that he was lying about his intentions, and that he would in fact implement Project 2025, but that is not equivalent to him campaigning on Project 2025. I think this is an important distinction.
reissbaker 2 hours ago [-]
Project 2025 didn't call for closing down USAID, so I don't think that's a relevant concern for this issue.
jaggederest 20 hours ago [-]
Why? To what end? How will any of that have any effect in the next two years, at least? Nobody elected Elon or any of the DOGE people.
notahacker 20 hours ago [-]
Yeah. Frankly driving a wedge between Trump and Elon would be the more effective political strategy, since it wouldn't exactly be uncharacteristic of them to spectacularly fall out, and Trump couldn't care less if DOGE exists or not as long as he's getting praise from the right quarters
idiotsecant 19 hours ago [-]
It's inevitable that the two will break up, but it'll be after trump has used him to do all the deeply unpopular hacking apart of social safety nets that he wants to do. He's a useful idiot. A very rich useful idiot.
BolexNOLA 19 hours ago [-]
What a convenient scapegoat to have when we eventually feel the ruinous effects of these decisions. "I trusted ELLEN and he couldn't get the job done, THATS why I FIRED him"
ethbr1 15 hours ago [-]
Dollars to donuts this goes the other way. Trump isn't known for playing the long game, and Elon (for all his craziness) is incredibly Machiavellian.
E.g. 'Trump was coopted by the deep state, and that's why I couldn't get it done.'
Also convenient once Trump is (a) term limited and more importantly (b) too old to be politically useful anymore.
BolexNOLA 4 hours ago [-]
Also a very valid theory!
hn_acc1 17 hours ago [-]
Once Elon has all the passwords, it won't matter what Trump says about him.. He's in forever.
timacles 16 hours ago [-]
Elon is clearly bankrolling Trump, hes his boss. Trump is CEO and the techno oligarchs are his board.
brandonmenc 18 hours ago [-]
> Nobody elected Elon or any of the DOGE people
Nobody ever votes for the President's cabinet or anyone else they bring in.
Aloisius 18 hours ago [-]
The Senate actually does vote on a chunk of the President's cabinet.
brandonmenc 17 hours ago [-]
The voters on election day don't, which is obviously what the comment was referring to.
ActorNightly 18 hours ago [-]
>The dems need to get off their asses and actually message that "hey, this isn't right or normal"
They have been doing that. The issue is that people just look at it all and think "its all political theater"
The only way anything will change is if the ~200m americans who didn't vote actually start to realize that voting matters. Texas could turn blue if all the people in the liberal areas actually voted, which would basically win the election for Democrats.
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
Waste of time and really achieves nothing other than theatrics. I don't doubt they'll do it though. Theatrics is really all the Dems ever do these days.
DFHippie 19 hours ago [-]
> Theatrics is really all the Dems ever do these days.
They have no power. They can't set the agenda; they can't get legislation to the floor; they can't call investigations. They certainly can't arrest lawbreakers. All they can do is make a case against the ruling party. And if they do it quietly and politely, no one will hear it. So really, it is political malfeasance for them not to be theatrical.
All they can do is make Republicans pay some price for the destruction they are bringing to the country and the world. And this requires theatrics. They have no other levers they can pull.
20 hours ago [-]
intended 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
netsharc 18 hours ago [-]
You really are deluded if you think these moves are for draining the swamp and to make the nation great again... that's the thinly veiled bullshit they're feeding you, and geez, people like you think they're clever and have got it figured out?!?
It's to consolidate power for the foreseeable future for a bunch of elites, so they can even more freely exploit people like you and make tons more money.
But hey, seems like people like to bend over and get MAGAed harder...
intended 11 hours ago [-]
I’m speaking for what others think. This isn’t how you drain the swamp.
toomanyrichies 19 hours ago [-]
> If it costs lives, well so be it.
Remember you said this if/when it's your life on the line.
I have a feeling that, when that time comes, a lot of people will be changing their tune. "I always knew he'd fuck people over, I just didn't think I'd be one of them!"
intended 11 hours ago [-]
In case it wasn’t clear, this is me explaining what voters think. Not what I think.
Sharlin 20 hours ago [-]
In case anyone needed even more reasons to despise "people in SV".
dgfitz 19 hours ago [-]
Nah, heh, nobody needed any additional reasons.
20after4 20 hours ago [-]
I'm not convinced that the democrats (most of them anyway) are actually apposed to what is happening. Both parties seem to have largely the same goals just preferring to use different tactics in order to achieve them.
rewgs 18 hours ago [-]
I love how "both sides are the same" continues to persist, even though Biden did absolutely none of what Trump has done these last two weeks, either in terms of method or outcome. They truly could not be more different and yet people like you are like theyrethesamepicture.jpg.
UncleOxidant 15 hours ago [-]
Lot's of speculation over the decades about what Gödel's Loophole was, but one wonders if it lies in this direction.
"Gödel told Morgenstern about the flaw in the constitution, which, he said, would allow the United States to legally become a fascist state." [1] Unfortunately Morgenstern never completely specified what this flaw was. As pointed out in the wikipedia article speculation is that "The loophole is that Article V's procedures can be applied to Article V itself. It can therefore be altered in a "downward" direction, making it easier to alter the article again in the future." But given how difficult it is to amend the constitution it doesn't seem like the problem lies there.
At some point the military needs to remember their oath to the constitution. And act accordingly
p3rls 20 hours ago [-]
Typically you use uprising/insurrection against the right and you coup the left as the military is usually more right than the average citizen.
roywashere 19 hours ago [-]
In turkey this has been the other way around! Us does not look so much different now
aranelsurion 18 hours ago [-]
Not really. Right/Left labeling is silly in general so it's hard to explain in those terms, but Turkish military is and has been anything but Left. You could maybe call them reformist, secular authoritarians, in opposition of religious, populist authoritarians.
Interestingly after 50 years and 2.5 coups, the kind of people they pushed out are the ones running the country for the past 20 years and they're stronger than ever. I take it as a signal that the problem wasn't specific individuals and parties, but they were merely symptoms of deeper problems with the Turkish people.
Maybe it's the same for US as well.
esafak 15 hours ago [-]
There was a momentous coup in 1980 that clamped down on the left and nurtured the religious right, to counter communist influence. It was a Carter administration project. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Belt_Theory
vlan0 20 hours ago [-]
Typically yes. But I don’t know what about this is typical. Trump will throw military under the bus just as fast. It’s up to them to realize that.
lmm 17 hours ago [-]
The left will throw them down even faster. I'm honestly baffled as to why any police bothered stopping January 6th - it predictably got them hated by the right, but they never got any thanks or appreciation from the left either, so it looks like a complete losing move to me.
lanstin 16 hours ago [-]
They got the Congressional Gold Medal award, and every time I heard Nancy Pelosi speaking of them, she sounded personally grateful.
Also, it was their job to keep Congress safe, and there are a lot of people that take their job and their honor seriously. Maybe they don't make the podcasts, but they are out there keeping our society safe.
Dylan16807 12 hours ago [-]
You're baffled that someone would do their job if nobody is going to thank them for it?
lmm 12 hours ago [-]
When someone's in a highly politicised position where it's not obvious what the right call is, I'm baffled that they wouldn't take the route that aligns so heavily with their interests, yes. Much as I'm a fan of personal integrity, there's only so much shitting on my whole profession that I could take.
Dylan16807 12 hours ago [-]
What's not obvious about preventing trespass?
lmm 11 hours ago [-]
You're not usually meant to use force to prevent trespass outside of some very narrow circumstances. And whether someone is trespassing or is somewhere they have every right to be is very often unclear.
_petronius 19 hours ago [-]
America as 70s/80s Turkey, just have the military coup the civilian government every time it gets out of line. Not a super stable way to run a country!
wbl 18 hours ago [-]
That's why you send letters asking if it would be a good idea to prominent people on both sides first.
maho_hiyajo 16 hours ago [-]
When a ruler becomes authoritarian and fascist, the military has usually sided with that ruler historically.
ethbr1 15 hours ago [-]
Usually because that leader financially rewards military leaders.
That'd be a major change in the US.
Not that it couldn't happen, but military peers would feel some kind of way about their superiors who did that.
dinkumthinkum 15 hours ago [-]
This sounds very ignorant. The members of the military very much understand and remember their oath to the constitution and they are acting accordingly currently.
epgui 20 hours ago [-]
RIP rule of law.
namaria 20 hours ago [-]
The rule of law is always contingent on the good will of the powerful. RIP USA. They are dismantling the country, not an abstract concept. Godspeed my American friends, I hope you live in a strong state, can get to one, or have a second nationality.
VagabundoP 20 hours ago [-]
It doesn't take much for a successful coup. Really just the right amount of people to sit on their hands and think that maybe someone else will do something to stop it.
namaria 20 hours ago [-]
Real. Essa galerinha vai estilhaçar os EUA, vagabundo....
nwatson 20 hours ago [-]
Ore por nós, nesta hora da nossa estupidez. Na verdade, foram muitas outras horas de estupidez, mas o sofrer começa agora.
jaggederest 19 hours ago [-]
Apt sentiment. Translation:
Pray for us in this hour of our stupidity. In truth, there have been many other hours of stupidity, but the suffering begins now.
jaggederest 19 hours ago [-]
Translation, for convenience:
Real. This bunch is going to tear the US apart, Vagabundo
deltarholamda 18 hours ago [-]
There isn't much rule of law left.
Think something should be illegal? It's probably in there somewhere. Want to do it anyway? It's probably allowed somewhere else. Want to know if you can or can't do something? Well, good luck figuring that out. With enough time spent in lines talking to civil service workers you can get an answer that may be correct. Or maybe not. Probably best to hire a lawyer at hundreds of dollars an hour to tell you whether you can or not. (The lawyer will say "no", because if he says "yes" and is wrong, now he's in trouble, and nobody wants that.)
The system has grown and changed and mutated, and now it's a behemoth that nobody really understands. It's such a mess that people are genuinely hopeful that an AI will ride in and help us all untangle all that we humans did.
And the people that we've put in charge of doing all of this are collectively the most unaccountable folks ever. They routinely skirt, side-step, or ignore the rule of law as they see fit, and they still enjoy a 90%+ re-election rate and an incredibly high barrier to entry for reformers.
_DeadFred_ 16 hours ago [-]
I see we are to:
“And if I did, you deserved it.”
In the narcissist's prayer in your approved overthrow of our government.
toomuchtodo 21 hours ago [-]
Send the US Capitol Police? Might makes right apparently, so why would you not act as such?
jaggederest 21 hours ago [-]
Who controls the US Capitol Police? I remind you that they obeyed Trump during the January 6th insurrection.
And of course, the executive branch has everyone from the FBI on down, you're not going to win a shooting (or shoving) war with them.
toomuchtodo 21 hours ago [-]
Well, we are in a very volatile place if members of Congress can successfully be barred from government property by Elon Musk.
This seems like an inevitable outcome of indefinite growth in executive power.
> If there are no consequences, the law is immaterial.
That is exactly what I mean by "growth in executive power".
toomuchtodo 21 hours ago [-]
I disagree. This is the outcome of someone who doesn't believe in the law acting accordingly. If there are no consequences, the law is immaterial. If the law is to remain intact, show up with force and enforce it. Checks and balances within the branches of federal government.
It's the inevitable outcome of a judiciary packed with lifetime appointments who put the traitor who appointed them over country.
jaggederest 21 hours ago [-]
> we are in a very volatile place
Understatement of (this) century at least.
chgs 19 hours ago [-]
We’ve seen that in Korea very recently.
jquery 8 hours ago [-]
Look at the comments. It's only been two weeks, and people are already tired of members of Congress running to the media after Musk does something illegal. They want these members to force the police to arrest them on behalf of Musk.
I'm in agreement. These people are softer than tissue paper. Where's the energy South Korean representatives had when their President declared martial law?
HumblyTossed 21 hours ago [-]
It's called a coup.
How long until Elon dismisses Trump? Let that sink in...
AtlasBarfed 20 hours ago [-]
Musk is a convenient fool for the trump administration.
He will be cast aside and scapegoated in less than 6months.
He might end up in jail in 2-4 years.
moogly 19 hours ago [-]
You cannot practically imprison the richest man in the world. He'd end up running the place like a king, like El Chapo did. The only way forward is to exile him to Mars.
1659447091 18 hours ago [-]
> Musk is a convenient fool for the trump administration.
Exactly this. And he doesn't even see it. There will be no "Elon dismisses Trump". Elon is not a natural born US citizen, Trump is. Trump wins, because if one has been paying attention, the people who put Trump in office don't like immigrants all that much.
ethbr1 15 hours ago [-]
Trump is 82 in 4 years.
The one thing even the richest can't avoid is time.
IX-103 18 hours ago [-]
The thing about Trump and Musk is that they both believed the other to be a convenient fool. It will definitely be interesting to see who lasts longer.
I'd bet on Musk as he has better connections among the Silicon Valley elite that are propping up this administration. Plus, the way that Trump is rubber-stamping everything Musk does as soon as he hears about it seems to suggest which one is actually in charge.
ethbr1 15 hours ago [-]
One of them is 78 and the other is 53. Eventually, time wins.
1659447091 10 hours ago [-]
Time doesn't matter here. Elon can never hold the highest office nor the second highest. The best he can ever do is be their appointed henchman.
The MAGA mobs may only care about a few cherry picked bits from the Constitution, but the requirement of being a natural born citizen (usually meant as born on US soil with 2 US parents, but generally, either one is accepted) is definitely one of them. And he won't be getting meaningful support from anywhere along the other end of the scale anytime soon, so I left them out
ethbr1 5 hours ago [-]
Elon doesn't have to be president to run things. We've had multiple US presidents who were proxies for business interests.
beAbU 19 hours ago [-]
The Musk-Trump breakup will truly be the breakup of the century.
modriano 19 hours ago [-]
> He might end up in jail in 2-4 years.
You think the Trump administration is going to prosecute the wealthiest person on earth? Attention and wealth are the currencies of Trumpian politics, and I would be shocked to see Trump try to fight someone with such a massive ability to direct attention (via control over twitter and through having hundreds of billions of dollars).
zombiwoof 19 hours ago [-]
If Trump can make money on it, he will put anyone in jail. Musk is such an easy target, Trump could take him down in a heartbeat , freeze his assets and put ownership of his companies in his control. And let me state this as clear as I can: this would all be perfectly legal “official acts”
gortok 20 hours ago [-]
> Who controls the US Capitol Police? I remind you that they obeyed Trump during the January 6th insurrection.
[Citation Needed]. Seriously. Heck, even a cursory read of the Wikipedia article would tell you they are controlled by the Legislative branch.
> The United States Capitol Police (USCP) is a federal law enforcement agency in the United States with nationwide jurisdiction charged with protecting the United States Congress within the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its territories. It answers to the Capitol Police Board and is the only full-service federal law enforcement agency appointed by the legislative branch of the federal government of the United States.
Misinformation is infectious.
sockp0pp3t 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
FrustratedMonky 18 hours ago [-]
"unless the sergeant at arms of the senate goes out and handcuffs them"
Capturing the courts is the first step in a fascist takeover. The Republican controlled legislature isn't going to send the sergeant at arms and arrest him.
There is nothing in the way now. "It could happen here."
sandworm101 19 hours ago [-]
>> is the legislative branch going to do?
Impeach. Subpoena. Then arrest if subpoena ignored. Pass laws (supermajority to bypass veto). Cut funding to executive office. Then go nuclear with things like amendment putting the armed forces under legislative control. Lots options. All require a united front.
petersellers 18 hours ago [-]
> Lots options. All require a united front.
So in other words "no options" because we will never have a unified front in the legislative branch.
DFHippie 19 hours ago [-]
> All require a united front.
Which requires Republicans to honor their oath to uphold the Constitution. So it's a non-starter.
sandworm101 19 hours ago [-]
Or, massive recalls across the country change the math. My point is that there are totally legal and constitutional options. Nobody need result to silliness.
DrillShopper 19 hours ago [-]
> what is the legislative branch going to do?
What did Parliament do during the English Civil War?
immibis 21 hours ago [-]
The legislative branch can recall both the president and the judges, but it won't do that because it is happy with what they are doing.
Even a Democrat landslide in two years wouldn't change it, because almost all Democratic politicians are unwilling to cause a fuss (or they are secretly happy with what the other branches are doing).
But the people are getting what they voted for, so is it really ethical to intervene in that?
tyre 21 hours ago [-]
> they are secretly happy with what the other branches are doing
Knowing people in democratic politics, this isn’t true. The root of the problem is that they don’t understand or prioritize power.
They have overwhelming support for every major issue: abortion, gun control, corporate taxes, HNI taxes, healthcare, social security, climate, gay rights. All of them. And yet they lose. Minority on the Supreme Court, house, senate, presidency.
Think about Obama’s first presidency. Sixty senators. What happens if they:
1. Make DC a state. That’s two senators. I don’t think they could get Puerto Rico.
2. Make Election Day a federal holiday. That spikes turnout, which benefits democrats (see: advantage in every major issue.)
That’s the type of thinking that gives and maintains power. But they don’t think that way until it’s panic time and already over.
jghn 21 hours ago [-]
> They have overwhelming support for every major issue
The problem is for a lot of these this only becomes apparent when pollsters remove all context and political baggage. For instance, ask people if they like Obamacare/ACA and results are mixed. But go down the line and ask about the constituent pieces of it all and you'll see positive support.
The Democrats have completely and utterly failed at packaging these things up with a message that resonates with the people. Instead they've allowed their opponents to demonize their stances. And that's how we wind up with people holding signs that say things like "Keep government out of Medicare"
intended 20 hours ago [-]
Stop blaming the dems.
The Repubs found an infinite money/PR glitch.
1) They create an issue at Fox.
2) Sell it breathlessly
3) congress person brings it up in the legislature, points to news reports as proof
4) pass a new bill, or stall another
5) Refer to these actions on Fox, showing it as proof.
6) go to the polls after creating the arena you want to fight in.
Add in the internet and the media advertising incentives, and you have escalating sensationalism and extremism.
Post watergate, the Republican strategists decided to win at all costs. There is no messaging that is “nice”, and if dems are aggressive they get penalized for it. Because many people didn’t believe this was true. It was too outlandish.
jghn 20 hours ago [-]
I understand why things are the way they are. And the dems are pretty fucked now. Whining about it doesn't help though, and it won't get them out of this mess. But neither will just saying "we have better ideas".
They need to come up with a solution that'll actually work. Instead they seem to keep punching themselves in the face.
netsharc 18 hours ago [-]
> Whining about it doesn't help though, and it won't get them out of this mess.
Are we sure? Them keeping quiet while fascists run rampage gives me the feeling of "not saying anything means you're consenting". A gruesome analogy that doesn't fit, because it's the nation getting raped (or since it's Trump, do we want to call it sexual assault), and it seems the Dems were supposed to be another guardian of the nation...
jghn 16 hours ago [-]
I didn't say they shouldn't do anything. I said that them whining about the situation won't help. To be honest I have no clue what they *should* do, as I said before it seems they're pretty well fucked for now. They could steal the GOP playbook and start a multi-decade effort to take over all media sources and influence people's internal metaphors. But that's going to take some time.
But I hope someone smarter than I figures out a better path.
intended 11 hours ago [-]
There’s no solving a problem if theres no ability to look at it in the first place.
This is the other magic trick that happens in America that I can’t figure out fully.
I’ve had the chance to talk to people across stripes in America, including people with significant seniority. I’ve made this point in more refiner points for YEARS now, well before Trump.
It’s not a point that people like to acknowledge. Like here ! It’s a massive issue, one that deserves its own conversation, and it’s reduced to a “whining about it”.
Step up for gods sake.
Here! this is a simple way to move forward, this is how I started to resolve it - why does free speech matter? In layman’s terms, it matters because it’s in support of a market place of ideas. In that case is it ok if you have a market place which has a monopoly? What happens if it’s ok for say… junk food and cigarettes to be sold by the same people who certify it as healthy?
How do you address the issue of advertising incentives that drive part of the escalation in rhetoric.
What do you do to throw a spanner in the free money glitch? Here, and everywhere in the world that is learning to replicate this?
We’re originally meant to be on Hacker news. It’s become VC unicorn hopeful land. Asking these questions, and finding an interest in providing if it’s wrong, or right is part of the most basic flame wars we indulge in.
jandrese 20 hours ago [-]
To be fair, the Democrats message extensively about things like the Affordable Care Act, but most people don't see those messages because the liberal media only wants to talk about migrant caravans, egg prices (sometimes), and immigrants committing crimes.
gowld 21 hours ago [-]
The truth is fighting with one hand behind its back when it is fighting lies.
Creation is harder than destruction.
telotortium 21 hours ago [-]
> They have overwhelming support for every major issue
Obviously not, or they wouldn’t have lost.
From a purely power-based standpoint, Obama probably should have pushed more in 2008. But that’s the only time he could have done it - even passing ACA got the Democrats severely punished in the 2010 Congressional elections.
modriano 19 hours ago [-]
> Obviously not, or they wouldn’t have lost.
That doesn't follow. It would be true if everyone voted on a correct and comprehensive understanding of the issues and where candidates actually stood on issues, but a massive proportion of the population just votes on vibes and is completely ignorant of actual policies or issues. Trump is objectively more responsible for the overturning of Roe v Wade than any other person, but ask a swing voter and it's pretty likely they won't know how Trump has anything to do with Roe v Wade and think he's pretty tolerant of abortion.
People don't vote on actual policy. They vote on vibes and other heuristics.
roenxi 18 hours ago [-]
There isn't necessarily a contradiction there; Roe v. Wade was objectively a bad ruling. It was a wild reach to suggest that the US constitution implied anything about abortion; the question is basically whether or not it counts as murder and in the US that is supposed to be resolved by state legislators.
I'm in that camp, I'm extremely tolerant of abortion but the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade was good jurisprudence. Probably not well advised, if they're going to burn political capital there are more important issues.
felixgallo 21 hours ago [-]
you may be undervaluing the effect of conservative billionaires owning every conceivable propaganda outlet and mashing on the fear, racism, and division buttons like they were going out of style.
17 hours ago [-]
roenxi 20 hours ago [-]
The major issues [0] included things like the economy, foreign policy, violent crime and immigration. Which generally favour Trump & the right wing. I don't understand the lack of strategic empathy among some on the left for being realistic about what people are focusing on. The election was close to a coin flip, obviously the democrats didn't have a big advantage.
Climate change might not even be a major issue any more, people are cooling to it.
Having power for the purpose of having power isn't too meaningful. In democracies parties (already questionable concept) should ideally not worry about power, but worry about reaching useful goals.
nine_k 21 hours ago [-]
It's hard to reach a useful goal without power to do so.
Also, think game-theoretically (or practically). If you don't dedicate at least some effort to gain and retain power, you will be displaced by those who do. The first priority of a pilot is to stay in the air, the second is flying in the right direction.
avmich 15 hours ago [-]
Right, and it's all rather obvious. The problem is better seen when, if you focus on staying in power, you have to spend all your resources on this goal, and you can't reach any other goal. Republican party in USA currently does rather little - they do dismantle government, but the more they do that, the harder it is to them to stay in power, so their resources are self-limiting.
cogman10 21 hours ago [-]
> They have overwhelming support for every major issue: abortion, gun control, corporate taxes, HNI taxes, healthcare, social security, climate, gay rights. All of them. And yet they lose.
The dems spent this last election cycle distancing, downplaying, and reversing each of these issues. Is it any wonder why they are losing? Rather than play to their strengths and party positions they endlessly and relentlessly try and shift right.
Do dems actually support abortion rights? Kamala didn't really campaign on that. How about gun control? Kamala was all too happy to talk about how she's a proud gun owner.
The Kamala/Biden campaign took painstaking measures to try and quash every single one of these issues rather than centering it in the discussion. Instead, they wasted an entire campaign talking about how much Liz Cheney loves them.
Even now, Schumer is saying "let's just sit back and let people watch what's happening" rather than pressing his advantage and Jeffries is saying "It's not great, but God is in control".
Dems desperately hate their base. That's why they lose. They simply transparent in the fact that the only thing that matters is corporate campaign contributions.
telotortium 19 hours ago [-]
> Do dems actually support abortion rights? Kamala didn't really campaign on that. How about gun control? Kamala was all too happy to talk about how she's a proud gun owner.
On the contrary, abortion was one of the main issues the Democrats campaigned on. I live in California, and while I didn’t get presidential campaign ads for obvious reasons, down ballot Democrats campaigned hard on a pro-choice message, despite the fact that California is about the last place where pro-choice is under threat. (Gun control a little less, but I still saw it sometimes.)
The issue is that Democrats successfully passed a lot of pro-choice ballot measures in 2022 after Dobbs. In 2024 they couldn’t use this issue much, since the states with heavy abortion restrictions after 2022 are much less sympathetic to the pro-choice cause, particularly because Democrat party messaging has moved a long way from “safe, legal, and rare”. Also, Trump distanced himself from the pro-life cause during the 2024 election, even removing the strongest pro-life language from the Republican party platform.
Without the pro-choice vote that delivered the midterms, and combined with the general incompetence of the Kamala campaign, Democrats really had little to offer, especially since they’re associated with unpopular policies like DEI, open borders, trans advocacy, inflation, etc.
tyre 18 hours ago [-]
Yes! This is exactly right. People care(d) about abortion so they tried to fix it at the local/state level. In many ways they made a lot of progress.
Unfortunately, they then moved on when there is a lot that the federal government (the FDA, for example) can still do to effectively limit access.
And state constitutions can’t override a federal ban that’s supported by a Supreme Court that upholds it.
xienze 19 hours ago [-]
> How about gun control? Kamala was all too happy to talk about how she's a proud gun owner.
On the contrary, they very much want to “control” guns out of existence. But they know during election season they have to tone down the rhetoric in the hopes that people forget everything they’ve said about guns during the last three years.
gg82 17 hours ago [-]
I don't think what Kamala and Walz said/showed about guns was in any way reassuring to gun owners.
nine_k 21 hours ago [-]
During these elections, Dems lost even the support of the precariate, the least wealthy who traditionally voted for left wing. No wonder actually, because they largely stopped to represent the the interests of these groups. When I see a black worker in a small grocery store wearing a MAGA hat, I understand that Dems have failed miserably. All the DEI boards did not represent interests of that guy.
ethbr1 15 hours ago [-]
There's two points here:
1. Most US media (especially radio) being conservative allowed Republicans to define Democrats in their terms. Consequently, the "Democrats are all trans rights and DEI" was a Republican choice.
2. The Democrats certainly didn't make it hard for (1) to happen.
I'm no Trump fan, but losing to Trump required some serious efforts :-(
ethbr1 14 hours ago [-]
Yes, the Democratic party is terrible at avoiding dumb issue traps that are unpopular.
But the public dissemination of these positions is very conservative media driven.
Counterfactual: if progressive media had been as dominant as conservative media is, everyone would have spent the last 4 years hearing about government infrastructure spending and Project 2025.
In reality, you instead heard a relentless drumbeat of easily attackable Democratic positions, with nary a peep about Republican extremes.
So, yes, Democrat fault for having those positions in the first place. But the de facto situation is mostly created by conservative-dominated media being able to repeatedly broadcast those to an uninformed public.
NoMoreNicksLeft 20 hours ago [-]
>I do not believe US policy makers and thought leaders think FGM is a good thing in the US
This may not occur to you, you assume other people are like yourself. That they work in an office and perform a similar job as your own. Given that scenario, if the turnout of Democrats is lower than you expect, the only reasonable conclusion is that some bosses are less reasonable than your own, and ducking out for 40 minutes to go vote at 2pm just isn't allowed! And therefor if it was a federal holiday, their office jobs would just call it off for that whole day, they'd vote, and the Republicans would never win an election ever again.
However, the people who would vote for Democrats don't have such jobs. The jobs they have are menial, they are working all hours of the day and night, someone has to cover that shift on election day, and if somehow one or another of them does have an office job, there's no guarantee that it will be a paid holiday at that employer. My own employer ignores several federal holidays and instead gives us off days for Easter (Good Friday) and some other Christian holidays.
Your political opponents would hoof it through a warzone to cast their ballot. Having to vote early (or late, or apply for a mail-in) isn't why your numbers are down.
CPLX 21 hours ago [-]
When you ask yourself why the Democratic Party doesn't in fact do things that you think would be obvious ways to further it's goals and purpose, over and over again, for generations, you might want to start pondering this concept:
the Dem leadership has done nothing substantial about their supposedly spotlight issues for 50 years.
there is a reason for this
mrguyorama 17 hours ago [-]
Dems have not held power in the US since at least Reagan, Full Stop.
"51" senators (when at least two aren't even democrats and one routinely votes against the party for his literal coal lobbyist cronies) isn't Power.
The one time Democrats held some power for about FIFTY DAYS, we got the ACA. We could have gotten medicare for all but a "Democratic" senator refused. Medicare for all has been on and off the Democrat platform since before RFK got got.
That so many "liberals" and "leftists" insist the democratic party hasn't done anything despite fifty years of being explicitly voted away from the reigns of power is part of the problem.
Go look at the coalition FDR had if you want to know what it takes to push Progressive policy in the US system.
CPLX 6 hours ago [-]
The last time dems held the House, Senate, and Presidency at the same time was a little over two years ago.
_petronius 21 hours ago [-]
> But the people are getting what they voted for, so is it really ethical to intervene in that?
No electoral mandate (and the argument for a clear mandate for all of this is thin or nonexistent) makes unconstitutional/illegal action suddenly legal or constitutional.
Whether anyone with the relevant power chooses to punish these violations, is a different matter. The choice since January 2020 has been to repeatedly do nothing in the face of illegal action, but winning elections doesn't make criminal action magically non-criminal.
avmich 21 hours ago [-]
> No electoral mandate (and the argument for a clear mandate for all of this is thin or nonexistent) makes unconstitutional/illegal action suddenly legal or constitutional.
Playing devil's advocate - but the people asked for this, right? Isn't it time to amend the constitution then?
The will of people is the ultimate judge, isn't it?
sjsdaiuasgdia 21 hours ago [-]
That's only the case in a pure direct democracy, which isn't what the US is.
There's a process for amending the constitution. If they want to amend the constitution, follow the process. Even if they only follow it once to change the constitutional requirements and reduce the threshold going forward.
We are (theoretically) a nation that is governed by laws, with equal protection for all under those laws. This creates stability and predictability, which encourages commerce and development.
When you go all Calvinball with government, you destroy that stability and predictability, and investment drops.
jaggederest 20 hours ago [-]
One team follows the rules, the other team doesn't care about rules and doesn't follow them. Guess which one struggles to achieve their goals.
This is the predictable outcome of the last 50 years of US politics, of the subversion of the rule of law and decency. The southern strategy, the 1994 Newt Gingrich legislative session, the failure of the supreme court to allow recounts in Bush V Gore, the teaparty, september 11th. All of it has only served to entrench and reward conservative opposition to the rule of law.
tpmoney 15 hours ago [-]
Also the Clinton administration where we were told repeatedly that the private actions of the president, and accusations of sexual misconduct have no bearing on their ability to be president. I’d also say the reaction to the Bush v. Gore election which solidified in the public consciousness the idea both of unreliable elections and that an election could be (and depending on what corner of the political world you were in, was) stolen. Decades of telling voters that if you don’t vote for one of the “lesser of two evils” you’re throwing away your vote. Decades of congress abdicating their responsibility to the executive branch to avoid the electoral consequences. Decades of cheering on executive fiat changing the rule of the land (see Net Neutrality) like it was a good thing (or at least like it is when one’s chosen team is enacting one’s preferred policies). Or happily going along with the president blatantly and openly refusing to enforce the laws as passed by congress (see federal enforcement of drug laws), again at least when one’s own team is the one doing the ignoring.
I used to think that people really just weren’t paying attention to the sort of precedents they’re setting when they do certain things. But the older I get, the more I’m convinced that it’s intentional. Take the dreaded “filibuster” that supposedly prevents congress from anything (except apparently banning Tik Tok). The filibuster in general, and its current form specifically are entirely products of congresses own rules. At any time, congress can decide by simple majority to change the rules of their proceedings and they could do anything from requiring that you actually get on the floor and speak instead of just declaring “filibuster” like some Magic: the Gathering spell. Or they could reduce the vote requirements to override a filibuster. Or they could abolish the thing completely and declare all their laws pass with a simple majority vote. So there must be some reason why they don’t do this, why it’s not the number one agenda item the moment the Democrats get any major it in congress. And the only logical conclusion is the current state of affairs benefits the congressional reps and that’s more important to them than the overall functioning of the system.
dllthomas 20 hours ago [-]
> the people asked for this, right?
No, not by sufficient margin.
Even assuming every state would decide this direct question the same way as they did the Presidency this past election, a Constitutional amendment requires ratification by 38 states.
> The will of people is the ultimate judge, isn't it?
Ultimately it has to be, but not always in the moment. The bar to Constitutional amendment is high for a reason.
kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 17 hours ago [-]
> No, not by sufficient margin.
Honest question: would the margin have been sufficient if the outcome was reversed? Would you be understanding of their position if Republicans had the same feelings and ideas of resistance if roles were reversed?
dllthomas 15 hours ago [-]
32 is less than 38, regardless of the political valence.
On the grounds that I'm, y'know, human I will grant that I'd probably find myself filling in the details of where exactly the constitutional lines are drawn somewhat differently in line with my policy preferences, but the question wasn't whether this is within bounds of the Constitution, but whether we ought to (morally) consider the Constitution amended anyway because of the electoral victory. My answer to that will always be no - both because of the numbers and also because the election conflates a bunch of questions where ratification asks just the one question directly.
sjsdaiuasgdia 16 hours ago [-]
Illegal and unconstitutional executive overreach is what it is, regardless of party.
I don't really envision a Democratic administration making a similar illegal and unconstitutional flurry of bullshit, but if they did, I would absolutely call them out on it.
jakelazaroff 16 hours ago [-]
The requirements to amend the Constitution are clear: a 2/3 supermajority in each chamber of Congress, followed by 3/4 states ratifying it. Neither chamber comes close to clearing that bar, let alone the state margins.
So this discussion is pretty confusing to me, because the Trump administration objectively does not have the level of support you seem to think they do. Are you saying the incoming administration should get a little amendment as a treat? Are you just not aware of the procedure? Where’s the disconnect here?
avmich 15 hours ago [-]
The position of the devil's advocate is that the procedure is a little undemocratic - it prevents people to express their will, right? - and ought to be bent when it's really needed. Insert whatever justification here the interested side could plausibly produce.
jakelazaroff 14 hours ago [-]
And like many devil’s advocate positions, it doesn’t make sense. Like, how exactly does the procedure prevent people from expressing their will? If there were truly popular support for DOGE, they would be able to conjure up the required votes in Congress and amongst the states.
But they can’t, because that support doesn’t exist. You’re starting from the presupposition that this is “the people’s will”, but voter turnout was less than 2/3 and Trump only won a plurality of that. That’s not to say that he didn’t win, but you’re talking about whether we should amend the Constitution to satisfy less than a third of eligible voters.
jakelazaroff 21 hours ago [-]
Why are they operating illegally, then? If "the will of the people" is unified enough to change the Constitution, why not… do that?
dekhn 20 hours ago [-]
Amendments require approval of 3/4 of states and there are still enough states to vote against. Also what amendment, specifically? That Trump can be president more times? Exert more power? Eliminate opposing political parties? Legislate pi to be 3?
beAbU 19 hours ago [-]
Is constitutional referendums also managed on a FPTP electoral system?
jakelazaroff 20 hours ago [-]
Yes, that is my point.
ryandrake 21 hours ago [-]
Why go through all the trouble of amending the Constitution when you can just do whatever you want because nobody's going to stop you? Suppose Trump declared himself king tomorrow. Who with any power is going to push back? It doesn't matter if it's against the law if nobody cares about the law.
jakelazaroff 21 hours ago [-]
I was responding to this:
> Playing devil's advocate - but the people asked for this, right? Isn't it time to amend the constitution then?
> The will of people is the ultimate judge, isn't it?
vkou 20 hours ago [-]
1. The devil doesn't need an advocate, he already has plenty of shills to advocate for him.
2. 49.8% of the popular vote is enough to elect an executive, but not enough to overturn the constitution, which places clear limits on the power of that executive. The more radical the change, the larger the consensus that it requires. In order for the executive to legally receive this power, you need a supermajority of states.
But in a world where the courts and the cops are on your side, nothing needs to be legal anymore.
avmich 14 hours ago [-]
> 1. The devil doesn't need an advocate, he already has plenty of shills to advocate for him.
Yes, but - if you want to review your arguments, it might be still useful.
> But in a world where the courts and the cops are on your side, nothing needs to be legal anymore.
Maybe not legal - but effective it could be. As a recent example, Syria changed the people at power disregarding laws - cops and courts weren't enough to prevent it.
vkou 12 hours ago [-]
'Experiencing a Syrian-style civil war' is not exactly ranking highly on my bucket list.
There US state is also far more internally secure than the Syrian state ever was.
ikrenji 20 hours ago [-]
constitution is deliberately a law that is hard to change. it's not meant to be amended every election cycle
wahnfrieden 21 hours ago [-]
You're saying that elected officials may operate as kings ordained by the will of the people. But they were willed into office, not willed into supreme power.
There are still laws. But you make a case for "might is right"
lmm 15 hours ago [-]
The constitution and laws are for the people. If the people don't care for them then they're just meaningless bits of paper.
Frankly we haven't had any real rule of law for a long time, and that's finally filtered through to the general populace. The law has been selectively enforced for decades (the famous "three felonies a day"). Of course the people don't respect the law any more, why would they?
afavour 21 hours ago [-]
> But the people are getting what they voted for
I think that’s extremely debatable. Last I checked “unauthorized access to confidential taxpayer information” was not an election topic.
This is true on all sides of course, folks who voted for Obama didn’t vote for drone strikes against US citizens either. Winning a presidential election does not mean four years of dictatorship and silencing of criticism.
germinalphrase 20 hours ago [-]
FWIW, people thought that when Obama ran around saying “these extrajudicial drone strikes are illegal” they assumed that he would end them rather than do what he actually did - make them legal.
Power Wars by Charlie Savage covers this rhetorical zig zag.
Spooky23 21 hours ago [-]
We (supposedly) elected a king. He’s exempt from all rule of law save spineless congressmen.
Whether most of the people doing so were smart enough to understand it is a good question, but the fact is we put a Perón-like figure into office, and only age will likely make him leave.
CamperBob2 19 hours ago [-]
I think that’s extremely debatable. Last I checked “unauthorized access to confidential taxpayer information” was not an election topic
Gee, I'm shocked, shocked, that a guy who stole large numbers of classified documents on his way out the door and stuffed them in unused bathrooms in his house(s) would fail to safeguard confidential taxpayer information.
You're right, it wasn't an election topic. Nobody who had any power cared to make it one, nobody who cared had the power... and nobody else was paying attention.
krapp 17 hours ago [-]
I don't think it's extremely debatable.
Obama didn't run on drone strikes, but everything Trump is doing has been a part of the Trumpist or Republican fringe platform for years. The Republicans have wanted to defund and destroy government ever since Grover Norquist said he wanted government to be small enough to drown in a bathtub. Purging academia of DEI and "woke," aggressive anti-immigration policies, tariffs, rule through executive order, none of it is new, all of it is established, boilerplate Trump-era Republican doctrine.
Trump ran on "draining the swamp." This is what "draining the swamp" means.
The only real exception to the norm seems to be Trump's sudden hard-on for invading Greenland and Canada.But even then you can look back at his infamous comments on not wanting immigration from "shithole countries" like Haiti versus places like Norway, or his comments on Mexico sending rapists over the border, and see how he might want to forcibly annex a few million white people to balance out the scales of white replacement or whatever racist paranoid shit goes on in his head.
I don't know. But let's please stop pretending no one who voted for Trump knew who he was or what he was about, or that what's happening now is not in effect what many Trump supporters wanted.
maxerickson 15 hours ago [-]
What happened to all that soaring rhetoric about the tyranny of the majority?
modriano 19 hours ago [-]
> But the people are getting what they voted for, so is it really ethical to intervene in that?
Did people vote for this? I thought people were voting on the price of eggs. Trump dishonestly disavowed the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025 ghostbuster containment system of horrible policies when people started becoming aware of the horrors that were in there. Sure, Trump is releasing those demons on us now, but a lot of voters claimed to believe Trump's dishonest disavowals.
Trump wouldn't have won if he had been honest about what he would do. Voters didn't choose *this*.
hn_acc1 17 hours ago [-]
If you believed Trumps disavowal, you're seriously gullible. We all knew that was fake.
brtkdotse 21 hours ago [-]
> The actions are entirely unconstitutional.
For all the fetishization of the constitution popular media has led me to believe Americans engage in, when push comes to shove it doesn’t seem to be worth the paper it’s written on.
readthenotes1 20 hours ago [-]
It'd be interesting to find out why people think moving the USAID organization under the Secretary of State is unconstitutional.
If they do not disperse the money as directed by Congress to specific causes by the end of the fiscal year then there is a problem, but not until September 30th
acdha 15 hours ago [-]
It’s unconstitutional because the U.S. has separation of powers: the Congress passes laws and the President executes those laws. USAID was explicitly chartered by the Congress as an independent agency outside of the executive offices:
That means that the President can’t wipe it out as an independent agency unilaterally. He could go to the members of his party in the legislature and ask them to create a bill rechartering the agency but then it would get public debate and they’d have to own what they’re doing, so he took the path of daring anyone to enforce the law. It’s like hot-wiring your buddy’s car because you don’t want to ask if you can borrow it, except that it’s disrupting millions of lives.
ipython 20 hours ago [-]
Eliminating birthright citizenship is cut and dry an attempt at unconstitutional rescindment of the 14th amendment of the constitution.
dinkumthinkum 15 hours ago [-]
That is totally hyperbolic. I think it is true that birth-right citizenship is part of the 14th amendment and the Trump administration will fail in this challenge. However, there is some debate about it among legal scholars, though, again, I think the weight of the evidence is in favor of birth-right citizenship,
However, disagreeing about the interpretation of the constitution when it is not actually that "plainly" clear, it has been supported by precedent is not the same as ignoring the constitution. In fact, it sets up a challenge for the Court to decide and it will almost certainly find in favor of this kind of citizenship.
Many presidents, including Obama, have put forth orders and supported legislation that was ultimately found to be unconstitutional; it does not mean they were running a monarchy or whatever the left is implying.
NoMoreNicksLeft 20 hours ago [-]
That's unclear to me. The idea that someone can just cheat the naturalization process by smuggling their pregnant selves onto our soil long enough to give birth is absurd. The 14th amendment was added to solve a specific problem, the disenfranchisement of slaves who had truly been born here without their say or that of their parents, for generations, and with the leave of the United States government when that was occurring. Nor can an overly permissive reading be justified on moral grounds... most of Europe (and indeed, the world) does not honor the concept of jus soli.
Besides all of that, there is the danger that if Democrats try to play the 14th card against him, Trump will declare the immigrants enemy combatants. At which point they are no longer under the jurisdiction of the United States at all, and he can do more than simply deport them. The left has been out-maneuvered at every step here, it's unlikely that this is the point at which they start winning.
ipython 19 hours ago [-]
Most of Europe and the world don’t have as wide ranging protections for free speech or bearing arms as we do, either. So using that as an argument is not relevant, regardless of any spiffy smart sounding Latin phrases.
The text of the 14th amendment follows:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
For better or for worse, the amendment does not make any exceptions for denying citizenship to persons born of late term pregnant women who just arrived on the shores.
Marking lawful citizens as enemy combatants for simply being born in the US sounds like a very bad idea to me, and should be to you too. Why would I not be a potential enemy combatant for making this comment on hacker news right now?
lmm 14 hours ago [-]
> For better or for worse, the amendment does not make any exceptions for denying citizenship to persons born of late term pregnant women who just arrived on the shores.
"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" could easily be read to exclude those who are born to people present unlawfully and/or in violation of their visa. I think it's pretty plausible that the Supreme Court might overturn Wong Kim Ark.
> Marking lawful citizens as enemy combatants for simply being born in the US sounds like a very bad idea to me, and should be to you too. Why would I not be a potential enemy combatant for making this comment on hacker news right now?
Welcome to how it's always been for anyone who didn't have citizenship. The "enemy combatant" concept is some tinpot dictator bullshit, but at this point it's been well established in the US and supported by both sides of the aisle, the Dems wouldn't have a leg to stand on in campaigning against it. Talking about applying it to "lawful citizens" is purely circular logic - Trump will take the position that they aren't and were never lawful citizens.
Aloisius 14 hours ago [-]
The debates on the amendment make it clear that Congress believed the 14th extended to the children of outright criminals.
Indeed, one of the Senators (Cowan) against the amendment feared millions of invaders who settle as trespassers leading to a loss of control over immigration due to the amendment.
It is simply impossible to read the debate and argue that Congress' understanding of the amendment didn't include exactly the group people today are trying to exclude.
> the 14th extended to the children of outright criminals
A criminal is very much "subject to the jurisdiction of" the US, far more so than an illegal immigrant who if caught will likely not be imprisoned or even tried, but simply deported.
> It is simply impossible to read the debate and argue that Congress' understanding of the amendment didn't include exactly the group people today are trying to exclude.
What Congress believed at the time is not binding on today's courts if they don't want it to be, as the history of interpretation of many other parts of the constitution shows.
Dylan16807 12 hours ago [-]
> A criminal is very much "subject to the jurisdiction of" the US, far more so than an illegal immigrant who if caught will likely not be imprisoned or even tried, but simply deported.
Deported using......jurisdiction?
You think if they do some big crime the US is going to ignore it and do nothing but give a referral because oops no jurisdiction?
This argument doesn't work.
NoMoreNicksLeft 16 minutes ago [-]
>You think if they do some big crime the US is going to ignore it and do nothing but give a referral because oops no jurisdiction?
If you were being reasonable, you might realize that short of those crimes deserving the death penalty, our country is better off just deporting. I don't want to spend $50,000/year (and up) on sequestering someone from our population, when deportation accomplishes that same result. Just make sure the deportation is successful. Send them with a crate of evidence for local prosecutors (who, in theory, should want to prosecute them... unless they really were sending them here to destablize our country with sabotage and rape).
This would remain true for me, even if it had no impact on citizenship of their children.
lmm 11 hours ago [-]
> Deported using......jurisdiction?
No, just deported. When the Navy shoots at Somali pirates they don't worry about jurisdiction. The left has been at pains to point out that illegal entry is not a crime and border patrol is not law enforcement, but that cuts both ways.
> You think if they do some big crime the US is going to ignore it and do nothing but give a referral because oops no jurisdiction?
If they do a medium-sized crime the US ignores it and just deports them, that much happens all the time already, no-one wants more people in prison.
If they do a big enough crime then I'm sure the US would find some way to charge them, but that's no different from what they do for full-on foreigners who never come anywhere near the US. E.g. if they kill a US citizen on US soil then the US would claim jurisdiction on that basis, even if the perpetrator stayed on the other side of the border the whole time.
Aloisius 17 hours ago [-]
The debate over the 14th amendment covered children of foreign countries.
> Mr. Cowan: I am really desirous to have a legal definition of “citizenship of the United States.” What does it mean? ... Is the child of the Chinese immigrant in California a citizen? Is the child of a Gypsy born in Pennsylvania a citizen? ... If the mere fact of being born in the country confers that right, then they will have it; and I think it will be mischievous. ...
> Mr. Conness: If my friend from Pennsylvania, who professes to know all about Gypsies and little about Chinese, knew as much of the Chinese and their habits as he professes to do of the Gypsies ... he would not be alarmed in our behalf because of the operation of the [proposed amendment] ... so far as it involves the Chinese and us. The proposition before us ... relates simply in that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens.
It is very hard to look at the debates and argue it was just done for ex-slaves and has no other effect given they very clearly debate the effect.
philipwhiuk 19 hours ago [-]
> That's unclear to me. The idea that someone can just cheat the naturalization process by smuggling their pregnant selves onto our soil long enough to give birth is absurd.
But that's not true. Only their offspring gains US citizenship, not them.
readthenotes1 12 hours ago [-]
And then the parents gain Permanent Residency because of the children. Birthright tourism is an actual business...
azernik 8 hours ago [-]
If you want to get rid of the Permanent Resident status for parents of citizens, go ahead; perfectly constitutional.
But I suspect that isn't the limit anti-14th-amendment people's ambitions.
zombiwoof 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
throwaway0123_5 19 hours ago [-]
> Nor can an overly permissive reading be justified on moral grounds... most of Europe (and indeed, the world) does not honor the concept of jus soli.
It is extremely common in the Americas though. I think only Colombia and a few island countries don't have birthright citizenship here. I think it is a good concept for us, the US has historically been a nation of immigrants and our country has a culture that is shaped (and IMO strengthened) by people from all over the world.
I-M-S 13 hours ago [-]
The reason why it's common in the Americas has little to do with perceived virtues of immigration, but because they were colonized. Granting citizenship through jus sanguinis is not really possible in this case; granting it via principle of jus soli on the other hand legitimizes the conquest.
bombcar 19 hours ago [-]
The jus soil argument is an interesting solution to a problem that even the Founders recognized, which is the tendency for a democracy/republic to create a second, lower class of "not-quite citizens" (famously, Rome).
It means that even if your citizenship never gets worked out, your descendants will be handled.
Having it so extreme as to be "anyone born on the soil (except diplomat kids)" is a novelty. Not necessarily a bad one, but also not obviously what the 14th was attempting.
AdieuToLogic 16 hours ago [-]
IANAL, so a grain of salt and all that.
> It'd be interesting to find out why people think moving the USAID organization under the Secretary of State is unconstitutional.
If there are no existing laws to prevent this, then it probably is legal. Given the voluminous laws in existence, I would not be surprised if there was one out there which is relevant.
> If they do not disperse the money as directed by Congress to specific causes by the end of the fiscal year then there is a problem, but not until September 30th
While this might be a "strict letter of the law" kind of thing (again IANAL), violating the spirit of a law is still illegal. Disbursement schedules are a real thing, with real-world impact when they are not adhered to, and can cause very real problems.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
You are correct. USAID is an executive agency.
ineptech 19 hours ago [-]
That doesn't mean it's subject to the whims of the president. When Congress creates independent agencies, they lay out exactly how the president has oversight (usually by hiring and firing the director and/or board).
I remember you pushing this idea (that the independence of independent executive agencies are unconstitutional, or unaccountable, or similar) heavily in a thread a couple days ago. Where is it coming from? AFAIK virtually everyone on both sides has agreed that the independence of these agencies was a Really Good Thing for the last hundred years.
ahmeneeroe-v2 18 hours ago [-]
I argued that independent agencies are extra-constitutional, not clearly "un"constitutional, but very clearly not enumerated in the Constitution.
Given that, they've operated on a consensus model for so long, it's hard to say that the current admin is doing something illegal by changing (as long as the money is spent by end of fiscal year, due to impoundment laws). This may be a "constitutional crisis" in the parliamentary sense, but hardly in the American sense.
>virtually everyone on both sides has agreed
This is something I've talked about elsewhere, but the electorate that put Trump in office did it specifically in rejection of the Dem & GOP cooperation of the last several decades which led to the same things happening regardless of who was in charge.
From that perspective (and without saying anything about legality or wisdom, etc) Trump is doing exactly what the people who put him in office asked him to do.
ineptech 18 hours ago [-]
I understand you're arguing this, I'm asking where this meme came from. Independent agencies have been around for more than a century and AFAICT the idea that there's something constitutionally unsavory about them is very new. Whence came this idea? Is it something you personally invented that the rest of the right doesn't subscribe to, or are others advocating it, and if so could you refer me to what arguments they're using to justify it?
AntiDyatlov 16 hours ago [-]
I haven't seen arguments that they're constitutionally unsavory, but I've seen arguments, that the President, as chief executive, does have almost CEO-like control over them. FDR did exert such control, in his case using it to expand the federal government, but he ran a fast-moving government.
So it's not like there isn't precedent for this, it's just that the consensus was as you said, the independent (some would say unelected) bureaucracy running things. But that was only ever a convention.
ineptech 15 hours ago [-]
In most cases the law that created the agency spells out exactly what control the president has, and AFAIK presidents still have to follow the law like everyone else. Is there any real justification for this, beyond the general notion that FDR once got away with something similar so maybe Trump should too?
lmm 14 hours ago [-]
> AFAICT the idea that there's something constitutionally unsavory about them is very new.
I don't think anyone's claiming that they're "unsavory" - just that they are creatures of the executive that were created by the executive and may be abolished by the executive as well.
And I don't think it's a new position either? The Ron Paul types have been complaining about them for literally decades.
12 hours ago [-]
djeastm 16 hours ago [-]
>Trump is doing exactly what the people who put him in office asked him to do
I challenge you to find 1 in 30 Trump voters who could say what USAID stands for or its intended purpose or any of its effects on global politics.
So I dont know about "exactly"...
jcgrillo 19 hours ago [-]
nit: it's actually written on parchment
beAbU 20 hours ago [-]
Does the US have a constitutional court?
In some constitutional democracies there is a court that sits above the apex court, and they rule on constitutional matters only. I feel this is is an effective check/balance, as it makes the interpretation of the constitution completely unambiguous.
0xffff2 19 hours ago [-]
IANAL, but my understanding is that that effectively is what SCOTUS does most of the time, i.e. very few issues make it to SCOTUS that aren't constitutional questions. In any case, there is not any higher court like you're describing.
DiogenesKynikos 19 hours ago [-]
The US Supreme Court is the original constitutional court. It invented the idea that courts can rule on the constitutionality of laws and governmental actions (in Marbury v. Madison, 1803).
Some more recent constitutions have established a separate court that only rules on constitutional issues, but the US doesn't have that.
chasd00 19 hours ago [-]
you're talking about the US Supreme Court but it has been politicized over the years and leans to one party or the other instead of strictly interpreting the constitution. For example, many people believe it leans heavily to the right side these days.
billfor 20 hours ago [-]
Totally appropriate. Everytime congress would ask USAID for information on their spending or audit what they were doing, they would just ignore the requests and say they were apolitical. They're not apolitical. The state department is by definition political, and responsible for the US interests. Totally reasonable to roll it under the state department where they will have to answer questions and not refuse audits. It's not going away it's just going to be accountable to the public that pays its budget (the US taxpayer).
apical_dendrite 18 hours ago [-]
What is your source for this? USAID has an inspector general like every other government agency. Inspector generals are independent of the agency and part of their function is to perform audits. Congress has the same powers with regard to USAID as it has with any other agency. It can investigate, subpoena, etc. The senate must confirm nominees to lead the agency. USAID is subject to the same laws like FOIA as any other agency.
What does it even mean to say that the state department is by definition political? There are political appointees, but the overwhelming majority of the state department is career foreign service or career civil service, which are apolitical. The same is true for USAID.
None of what you're saying makes any sense or has any relation to reality.
Do you disagree with what he says in the above video? They denied to be audited.
The US in USAID stands for United States. Can we not ask what they spend the money on?
USAID was not created by congress. It was created by executive order 10973 by JFK. It can be undone by executive order. It's function can be rolled into the state department.
and0 17 hours ago [-]
I worked on USAID software for reporting costs and results and there were annual and quarterly briefings IIRC. It was kind of a whole thing.
Also, Congress codified it as an independent agency in 1998. So.. that last part isn't true either. This stuff isn't hard to look up.
billfor 17 hours ago [-]
That is factually incorrect. Congress did not codify USAID as an independent agency in 1998. It reaffirmed and clarified its role. The foreign affairs reform and restructuring act of 1998 left USAID a separately managed and operationally independent agency UNDER THE AUTHORITY of the secretary of state. Congress did not explicitly codify it as fully independent.
This stuff isn't hard to look up, but feel free to send an explicit link explaining why they can spend money and never have to answer any questions about what they are spending it on. Some of the alleged things that they spent the money on are ridiculous (not going to repeat them here).
UniverseHacker 17 hours ago [-]
Your comment assumes that the constitution and democracy still stand- which does not appear to me to be the case. Hopefully I’m wrong.
15 hours ago [-]
jmyeet 18 hours ago [-]
Something is "constitutional" if nine unelected political operatives in black robes with lifetime appointments say it is.
This same court invented prisidential immunity out of thin air. They invented "history and tradition" doctrine out of thin air (and then selectively applied it). They invented "major questsions" doctrine to allow them to act as all three branches whenever they want to.
There is absolutely no opposition to any of this. There are only the perpetrators and the controlled opposition who are 100% complicit with what's going on.
Nobody is coming to save you and certainly not the courts.
21 hours ago [-]
aaomidi 21 hours ago [-]
Doesn’t matter if laws don’t matter and aren’t enforced.
afavour 21 hours ago [-]
OP asked “is it appropriate”. Will they get away with it? Maybe. But that doesn’t mean it’s appropriate.
mring33621 19 hours ago [-]
we keep having side debates about 'appropriate', 'ethical', 'traditional', 'conventional', 'legal', 'moral', whatever, but the fact remains that you can do whatever you want, until someone else stops you.
No one is stopping the people at the top of the US Government from doing what they want. In fact, there is a whole apparatus in place, at this point, to protect their ability to continue to operate unchecked.
afavour 18 hours ago [-]
I think we’re all aware of that.
Irrespective of whether our system of checks and balances is working (it isn’t) it’s still worth pointing out exactly what rules and norms are being broken.
aaomidi 15 hours ago [-]
To what end
gopher_space 18 hours ago [-]
What happens next, Mr. Chekhov?
17 hours ago [-]
colechristensen 16 hours ago [-]
>The actions are entirely unconstitutional.
At this point, who cares? The democrats in power have proven themselves wholly incapable of doing anything for many years now.
dadjoker 15 hours ago [-]
[dead]
pessimizer 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
stetrain 21 hours ago [-]
USAID as the specific agency was established by executive order, in response to legislation (the Foreign Assistance Act) passed by Congress requiring such an agency to exist, and other legislation that continues to fund its operation.
If the goal is reorganization then it could be argued that the president has the power to do so provided it still meets the requirements of the legislation passed by Congress.
If the goal is to simply delete the agency with no replacement and let the funding stop indefinitely, that is not so clearly within the president's power and has precedent against it.
afavour 21 hours ago [-]
> make an entirely specious process argument
That’s an absolutely absurd response. Even if your argument were correct (it isn’t) there is no executive order shutting down USAID. It isn’t “specious” to want actions like the shutting down of entire government agencies to be done legally.
The opposite happened. Congress said that an agency should manage aid, and then USAID was created by executive order. Trump could just create another agency.
Aloisius 21 hours ago [-]
Congress passed a law in 1998 itself to establish US AID, 37 years after the EO. The EO was made with authority that had been granted by another law.
That 1998 law does not permit the President to abolish it or name a different organization:
> Unless abolished pursuant to the reorganization plan submitted under section 6601 of this title, and except as provided in section 6562 of this title, there is within the Executive branch of Government the United States Agency for International Development as an entity described in section 104 of title 5.
- 22 U.S.C. §6563
762236 19 hours ago [-]
He can at least fire everyone in USAID, as he should.
Aloisius 18 hours ago [-]
Actually, no, he can't unilaterally.
Congress explicitly forbade downsizing of US AID without prior consultation.
> Sec. 7063. (a) Prior Consultation and Notification.--Funds appropriated ... may not be used to implement a reorganization, redesign, or other plan described in subsection (b) by ... the United States Agency for International Development ... without prior consultation ... with the appropriate congressional committees.
> (b) ... a reorganization, redesign, or other plan shall include any action to
> (2) expand, eliminate, consolidate, or downsize the United States official presence overseas ...
> (3) expand or reduce the size of the permanent Civil Service, Foreign Service, eligible family member, and locally employed staff workforce of the Department of State and USAID from the staffing levels previously justified to the Committees on Appropriations for fiscal year 2024.
I'd be really surprised if Congress can stop the President from firing employees. He is the head of the Executive branch
dragonwriter 1 hours ago [-]
> I'd be really surprised if Congress can stop the President from firing employees. He is the head of the Executive branch.
The President is bound by law in that role, and most of thr federal civilian workforce is covered by civil service laws that govern hiring and firing, they are not at-will employees serving at the pleasure of the President? And those laws create a legal property interest which means that no one in government can fire them without due process, and that to do so is a violation of not only the statute itself but the 5th Amendment as well. This has been litigated fairly extensively, as one might expect given the size of the federal workforce and the inevitability of disputes over thr legitimacy of adverse workplace actions.
msarvar 21 hours ago [-]
Based on some googling sounds like you're partially right, it was established as EO by JFK in 1961. But it was established as an agency via Congress in 1998. So the assertion that President can't dissolve USAID without Congress is in fact true. At least as of 1998.
21 hours ago [-]
stetrain 20 hours ago [-]
> edit: why is the level of discussion about anything Trump-related always so low? If you want to defend USAID, defend USAID. If you can't defend USAID, make an entirely specious process argument.
Who is making specious arguments? Your comment was about process, while omitting congress’s role in that process, and people are responding accordingly.
21 hours ago [-]
rattlesnakedave 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
WhyOhWhyQ 20 hours ago [-]
How so?
megous 17 hours ago [-]
Too late, Musk already has direct access to Treasury systems:
and he can certainly act quicker than any checks and ballances. We'll see how the system works to get rid of the chaos monkey on the inside.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
Strict constitutionalists would call many of these programs unconstitutional.
This is a problem for the left and for neo-cons; they flouted the constitution for so long, that now that someone else (Trump) is doing it to them, the left/neocons don't really have a base that responds well to cries of "Unconstitutional!".
eightman 20 hours ago [-]
Strict constitutionalists would only apply the 2nd Amendment to barrel loading smooth bore muskets.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
I guess you're agreeing with me?
salawat 20 hours ago [-]
Constitution says nothing about barrel loading, smooth bore muskets. It says "arms". It's a fairly timeless umbrella term for "weapons or objects usable as such". The only people who have trouble understanding this are generally those who approve of the Machine gun registry being closed by having the federal expenditure to maintain it set to $0, and don't that as being an example of "infringement" of a Constitutionally granted right.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
Love your answer, totally agree! But please don't feed the trolls!
maho_hiyajo 15 hours ago [-]
It also says "a well regulated militia" as a context where the amendment applies.
tpmoney 15 hours ago [-]
It also says “the right of the people” a phrase understood in every other part of the constitution and its amendments to refer to the individual citizenry. Notably, you don’t need to be a member of the press to exercise a right to free speech.
Dylan16807 11 hours ago [-]
> Notably, you don’t need to be a member of the press to exercise a right to free speech.
The first amendment says congress can't abridge freedom of speech OR freedom of the press. So obviously you don't need one to exercise the other.
The second amendment has much worse wording.
stainablesteel 17 hours ago [-]
what's unconstitutional is how USAID would stiff-arm senators who want to investigate their activities
crummy 10 hours ago [-]
Got a source on that? Didn't realize USAID had so much political weight to throw around.
stainablesteel 3 minutes ago [-]
Joni Ernst is a Senator who I heard speak on this issue. She was trying to get information out of USAID and it became a long battle just to check their work and could only do so under extremely limited conditions later. They try to hide everything, basically.
I don't think these fences are being torn down by inexperienced engineers by their own initiative. They have a mandate (or so they think), a direction, and maybe specific orders from much more experienced folks, AFAICT.
derangedHorse 21 hours ago [-]
By what metric do you think the U.S. is as “economically dominant” as it was in the period after WWII?
immibis 21 hours ago [-]
Most of the world's currency is backed by the currency they print? The USA has to spend a few cents to gain a hundred dollar bill, but any other country has to exchange a hundred dollars of actual goods and services (to the USA!). Losing this privilege would be devastating.
curt15 20 hours ago [-]
The economic power of the US is also largely due to its reputation for rule of law (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5zaImTF92g) when contrasted with other regimes like the CCP. Once that image goes out the window, it becomes no more attractive to foreign investment than any other banana republic run by thugs.
elif 15 hours ago [-]
I think assuming that their intentions are a well functioning economy have been disproven by the rapid pace of kicking pillars out from under it.
Occams razor would instead suggest that either a recession or some other form of social instability is not an externality but an objective.
It makes me scared for what the ultimate aim is, but I think at this point it's beyond giving him the benefit of the doubt.
jimmydddd 21 hours ago [-]
US National Debt Adds $1 Trillion Every 100 Days.
mindcandy 21 hours ago [-]
76 of those days are social security, medicare/medicaid, vet benefits, income security for the poorest citizens and interest payments.
15 of those days are national defense.
9 of those days are what Elon hopes to cut in half.
The deficit is a huge problem. I don't know how to fix it. But, what DOGE has done so far is exactly the opposite of what makes sense.
amrocha 18 hours ago [-]
The deficit is not a huge problem. If all the deficit hawks literally disappeared tomorrow the country would run more efficiently.
mindcandy 17 hours ago [-]
From what I've read, the deficit looked like a huge problem and turned out to not be a problem from WWII to 2008. That's the situation most economists, finance leaders and regulators grew up in.
But, the demographic crisis means that moving forward our growth in entitlement spending for the growing population of seniors is far outpacing our growth in GDP from our slowing population of workers.
We can't tax or cut out way out of this. Elon's cuts are going to be performative at best. Real cuts would put tens of millions of seniors, vets and disabled people into destitution. Taxing the billionaires more would be nice. But, taxing them to zero would only paper over a few years of the problem.
The only way out I see is through massive investment to increase per-capita GDP long term. As a super duper liberal, I'm gung ho on "Bring manufacturing back!" in the form of
1. Re-prioritize trade schools and trade skills so we can actually perform high-skill work in factories if/when we build them.
2. Do everything we can to catch up with China making locally-built green energy tech dirt-cheap and highly effective.
3. Figure out how to incentivize the market to local build the interconnected web of advanced manufacturing capabilities needed to produce high tech goods fast and cheap.
I see the work of https://www.hadrian.co/ as an example of what I'm talking about. I'm starting to see some senators act like they need to stop talking about it and actually do something about it. But, the "best" I've heard from Trump is "Drill, baby. Drill!" and "Tariffs are magic."
If Trump laid out a plan for how to target tariffs surgically and use those proceeds to build up manufacturing, I'd be on board. But, he hasn't. Instead, he has made it clear his only plan is to create chaos, achieve performative concessions, and declare personal triumph while netting great harm for everyone in the end.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
I agree with your numbers. If we're seeing this much resistance to cutting down mostly foreign-focused programs, would you really be making this comment if Elon/Trump were trying to cut social security, medicare/aid, etc?
mindcandy 19 hours ago [-]
I would be 10X as concerned and so would everyone else because mishandling those programs could absolutely wreck the lives of tens of millions of people.
My point is that a lot of people seem to be in an "ends justify the means" mindset here where it's OK to rubber-stamp over laws, security, any sort of requirements for competence, or even basic understanding of what's being destroyed because in the end, this is chaos is going to have such a tremendous impact.
But, it's not. It mathematically can't. Even if it all turns out amazing it will be a small dent in the problem it's claiming to solve.
So, in the end, all of this is actually just chaos for sake of chaos. In the process, a whole lot of real people will be hurt in real ways. It's not bad at the same scale that "Turn off Medicare until we understand how it works" would be. But, it's nonsensically destructive in exactly the same way.
ahmeneeroe-v2 18 hours ago [-]
>I would be 10X as concerned
Exactly my point. This is (one of the reasons) why Trump is cutting these small programs. People would really flip out if he cut social programs for Americans
mindcandy 17 hours ago [-]
Of course. But, then there's the rest of my comment...
jensensbutton 20 hours ago [-]
I think it's primarily the "how" that people are resisting. I'm not sure why that's being dismissed.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
Maybe elsewhere, but this specific thread (i.e. the parents I responded to) appears to focus on the actions, not the "how".
wyager 20 hours ago [-]
Have to start somewhere. Pork barrel patronage slush funds are an easier jumping point than welfare benefits.
mindcandy 19 hours ago [-]
I applaud the goal of rooting out the pork. But, "We have to do something. This is something." doesn't excuse how it's being done.
Turning off the entire flow of money is unnecessary, even counter-productive, to understanding how the money is flowing. Even if half of the money is waste, turning off the other half is causing tremendous real harm for no reason.
It is completely unnecessary and horrific to rubber stamp around national security protocol for something as incomprehensibly impactful as the federal payments system.
And, in the end, what are we going to get out of all of it? What I'm seeing out of Elon is propaganda about programs like "studying shrimp on treadmills" which was an microscopic piece of a very sensible study on marine safety and security. That's exactly the kind of work the government is supposed to be doing. But, if you frame it badly enough, you can destroy it for everyone and claim it as a victory.
robertlagrant 4 hours ago [-]
> Even if half of the money is waste, turning off the other half is causing tremendous real harm for no reason.
I mostly agree with you, except I would add that the waste is causing real harm as well, as it could be better spent.
KennyBlanken 19 hours ago [-]
Or we could repeal the Bush and Trump tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations, that are largely responsible for the deficit exploding in the first place?
I agree, but note that comment was in response to one that wrote "Have to start somewhere."
tyre 21 hours ago [-]
Yes and it is fine. That’s a scary number with zero context, but given the borrowing rate and the investments we’re making in future GDP, this is good borrowing!
it isn’t good when a group of people tries to destroy the entity that’s making those investments. These shitheads are basically corporate raiders coming in to tear things apart for personal gain.
Ironically, it is the “fiscally responsible”, “WhY nOt RuN gOvErNmEnT lIkE a BuSiNeSs” gang who want to destroy any fiscally responsible investment.
If they want to reduce spending meaningfully, they need to cut defense, social security, and Medicare. They won’t, because it’s political suicide.
schnable 21 hours ago [-]
Which investments in future GDP do you mean?
thecopy 21 hours ago [-]
Education, health, infrastrucure, science.
gotoeleven 21 hours ago [-]
The billions of dollars for 8 EV charging stations. That kind of investment.
Bhilai 20 hours ago [-]
Provably false, if you bother to get out of your echo chamber
This is like building a computer, getting it mostly done, and declaring it useless because it doesn’t turn on yet. Or complaining the Manhattan Project had produced zero nukes by early 1945.
It’s a decade long project, with phases and 50 different state governments doing the actual contracting. The Fed side is mostly funding and establishing the Tesla charger as the national standard - which required quite a bit of diplomacy to get all the car manufacturers onboard.
renewiltord 15 hours ago [-]
It is somewhat amusing timeline wise as a choice since the Manhattan Project ran from 1942 to 1946:
Jan 1942: Roosevelt authorizes the atomic bomb
Jul 1945 (55 months later): Trinity
Aug 1945 (56 months later): Little Boy
By comparison:
Nov 2021: IRA becomes law
Feb 2025 (40 months later): <250 charging points
But this would take 120 months to complete. What an interesting comparison.
ceejayoz 6 hours ago [-]
“Things happen fast in wartime” is perhaps not the novel discovery you think it is.
Zero bombs in early 1945. What a waste of money!
renewiltord 48 minutes ago [-]
Ah, so if they had the extra year they would have had charging stations everywhere. What a pity. All that money wasted because we didn't wait till August.
They invented a novel weapon in half the time your heroes dreamed of building a charging station.
ceejayoz 13 minutes ago [-]
> They invented a novel weapon in half the time your heroes dreamed of building a charging station.
It's a plan to build tens of thousands of charging stations, by 2030.
In all 50 states, with the states and local administrations being responsible for contracting, permiting, buying land, utility work, etc. Most of the work is not on the Feds here.
It should not be at all surprising that 10k+ little building projects take some time to get going. Even from the folks who credulously believed the President could end the Ukraine war in 24 hours.
renewiltord 2 minutes ago [-]
So they came up with an overly complicated plan with little outcome and this is supposed to be amazing?
Oh hang on, I can do better. I have a plan to build 3 billion teleportation machines by 2045. This makes for a great mad libs set.
Apocryphon 35 minutes ago [-]
Well, maybe if the government declared a War on Climate Change or War on Lack of Charging Stations.
acdha 15 hours ago [-]
Here’s the entire sentence:
> There are currently 214 operational chargers in 12 states that have been funded through the law, with 24,800 projects underway across the country, according to the Federal Highway Administration.
I can see why you omitted the context.
FergusArgyll 6 hours ago [-]
I'll give you a general tip for reading opinion pieces / fact checks (from generally reputable sources):
Any "fact" it claims which is bad for it's case, you can believe with > 90% probability
Any "fact" it uses to support it's case should be taken with a tablespoon of sodium.
For example in this case: 24,800 projects underway. I assume if many were mostly built then they would say "10,000 chargers expected to be operational by March".
If they were under construction at all, they would probably say "under construction" This is a statement from the Federal Highway Administration! it's PR! (as it should be, nothing wrong with tooting your own horn) and the most they claim is "underway".
Of course we won't get an investigative story about this, but I'd wager the vast majority is in the earliest possible stage (before even permits to build)
So, the criticism of Buttigieg is well founded, and the "misinformation" is more directionally correct then the "fact check"
magicalist 19 hours ago [-]
I think it's the price per charger that's the important value here, and the original claim "billions of dollars for 8 EV charging stations" is indeed provably false (even if you amend it to 243 or 214 EV charging stations). The money hasn't been spent yet.
caspper69 21 hours ago [-]
Who holds the vast majority of the debt of the government of the United States?
Hint: it's not China, the UK or any other foreign government.
It's us silly. We owe ourselves. :)
atq2119 21 hours ago [-]
Precisely.
The only potential problem here is that "we owe ourselves" simplifies things given that some individuals are owed much more than others, i.e. there's inequality. Other than that? The whole debt charade is just political groups weaponizing (and perpetuating) the lack of fairly basic macro-economic understanding in the population.
carlosjobim 20 hours ago [-]
It's the elderly who are holding that debt and enslaving the youth and the unborn with that wicked scheme. Any and all national debts should be defaulted on. If you lended money to the government, knowing fully well that your interest is paid by oppressive taxes, then you don't deserve your money back.
caspper69 20 hours ago [-]
Truth be told, it's institutional money.
Turns out that having a 100% guaranteed return is attractive to a lot of large-scale investors, even if the yields don't make the money machine go brrr.
This is one thing that worries me about the current administration. A lot of trust is built on the fact that the US gov't has never defaulted on a debt in its history. I feel like some people don't place enough weight into what that really means for both ourselves and the world.
carlosjobim 19 hours ago [-]
It's institutions who are investing on behalf of their elderly clients (for example pension funds and such).
That 100% return is guaranteed by the whip that the government so willingly cracks over the backs of productive young people. Why would it be in the interest of the non-entitled to have a government which keeps swinging that whip? To guarantee the investments of the elderly who only have bottomless hate towards the young?
Nasrudith 20 hours ago [-]
There is a reason why third world countries choose IMF funding even with the strings attached even though default is always an option. It turns out having credit is very valuable to stability and progress and therefore defaulting is a very bad thing.
carlosjobim 19 hours ago [-]
The reason being that the ruling class benefits from selling out their subjects to financial vultures?
Being rich in a first world countries is very neat, even great. Being rich in a third world country is like thirteen levels above that. For you and for your family.
jacobjjacob 21 hours ago [-]
If a balanced budget led to a flat or negative GDP, reduced the USA’s power and influence globally, and/or lowered standards of living, then would it still be desirable? What exactly is the argument against a deficit besides that it might be giving some groups leverage over the USA, which is dubious?
SpicyLemonZest 20 hours ago [-]
The argument is that it inevitably gets you to a state like Argentina was in, where the government repeatedly defaults until eventually you're forced to crash the economy for years to escape the loop. I'd rather have a flat GDP than 95% annual inflation.
bithive123 19 hours ago [-]
I hate threads like this because of all the misinformed debt hysteria.
People like to bring up places like Argentina and Venezuela, but their debts weren't denominated in their own currencies, so they had to collect dollars in order to repay debts in dollars. As a currency issuer, since we create dollars, we can never run out of them. Nor do we have to round up dollars and take them back from currency holders before we can repay a debt. Doing so just takes those dollars away from the non-government so that the issuer can zero out a ledger somewhere. The interest is interest we choose to pay, for some reason. The only way we could default on our debt is if we decide to. The only way to "pay off" the "debt" is to take all the dollars away from the non-government, which is _us_.
SpicyLemonZest 18 hours ago [-]
Respectfully, it's you who's been misinformed by viral but false monetary theories. It's true that the US government can't run out of dollars in the same way that you or I might run out of dollars. It's not true that the government has no fiscal constraints, or that taxes and spending are unrelated parameters.
> The interest is interest we choose to pay, for some reason.
Perhaps this is the best point to talk about, because the precise way in which it's untrue is very concrete. The US government doesn't choose how much interest it feels like paying; it sells securities which promise a specific payout schedule according to an auction-set interest rate. If investors want to buy at a high interest rate, there's no mechanism for the government to demand they accept a lower one.
bithive123 18 hours ago [-]
I never said that we have no fiscal constraints, just that the common misconception is backwards. I also never said that the government chooses the rate. It chooses to pay interest when it chooses to sell securities.
I think the popular misunderstanding is more harmful than some of the misunderstandings you point out (which some people may indeed have) because it leads to people pushing austerity because of their monetarist dogma.
Nobody ever asks who's going to pay for stuff when it's so-called "defense" spending. But if we want health care or education then it's all apoplectic "debt, hyperinflation, enslavement of future generations, where's the money going to come from!?"
jacobjjacob 20 hours ago [-]
I’m not advocating for war but one thing this deficit pays for is being a military superpower, which is the main way our debt is “guaranteed”. As in, call in the debt at your own peril.
LastTrain 14 hours ago [-]
You are advocating killing our own citizens for trying to cash in their t-bills?
forgotoldacc 9 hours ago [-]
He's not advocating it. But it's simply the reality of the US as a superpower.
Just look at Panama this very week. They were threatened to be invaded if they didn't give up economic deals with China and go back to being a servant colony of the US.
The odds of citizens cashing in and demanding all their money at once is pretty slim. The odds of countries that hold US debt doing it are better. But there's a strong deterrent for countries doing that. And it's the reality that the US has no issue with invading, and they've done it countless times this past century to the applause of the voters.
SpicyLemonZest 19 hours ago [-]
US government debt doesn't exist as a line-of-credit agreement that someone could choose whether or not to "call in". It's primarily represented by Treasury bonds, securities which represent a promise by the US government to pay a specific amount of money at a specific point in time. It's true that the US can decide one day to default on these promises, but this doesn't have anything to do with military strength, nor can military strength mitigate the negative consequences for the (mostly domestic) investors.
mempko 20 hours ago [-]
To put it another way, the private sector gets an income of $1 trillion every 100 days. Now suppose you stop that income. What happens to the private sector?
timeon 19 hours ago [-]
So US is trying Germany's austerity?
skywhopper 21 hours ago [-]
What is your point?
snapcaster 21 hours ago [-]
Their point (i assume because had same convo with my dad) is that the debt is such an emergency we should toss the rule of law
intalentive 20 hours ago [-]
Sometimes following rules leads to an unrecoverable state, and then you have no choice but to reboot. Compound interest leads to either stagnation and decline, or else to jubilee. It's an inherently unstable system that has felled many civilizations before ours. Debt grows exponentially while real economies saturate in an S-curve. Eventually something has to give.
tsunamifury 20 hours ago [-]
This is not that situation, you're been told so so you can give up what little power you have left out of stupidity.
intalentive 20 hours ago [-]
Interest payments are the largest item of the federal budget. Give it time and they will consume the whole thing.
mc32 21 hours ago [-]
Stop unaudited government spending? Ukraine says it’s received only about half of what the Biden admin said it gave it.
It's looking like this was at least larping as a 40+ billion dollar slush fund. There may have been some legitimate (useful) spending, and they will find out after auditing the system, but it also looks like there was lots of waste and once-removed (one degree of separation) self-dealing.
skywhopper 21 hours ago [-]
How exactly is this approach an improvement over the status quo? Elon is not auditing spending. He’s pursuing political grudges and generating chaos for its own sake. The outcome will not be less government waste and fraud.
selimthegrim 21 hours ago [-]
This doesn’t mean what you think.
coldtea 18 hours ago [-]
If it's at some economic dominance peak is at the point at the top of an upward curve, when the acceleration has ended and the object reaches 0 velocity before coming back. It's a downward trajectory: public debt, failing infrastructure, failing manufacturing capabilities, failing leadership, failing rule of law, increased irrelevance on the world stage, and let's not get started with the culture.
If the dollar falls further from being the global reserve currency (something which both administrations did their best to ensure it will happen) that will be an even worse blow.
That there are people in bubbles believing it's all fine, or they never been better, is also a contributing factor to all this.
screye 20 hours ago [-]
USD as reserve currency is a hen that lays golden eggs.
The US maintains monopoly on this free money cheat through goodwill driven manufactured consent, diplomacy, financial bullying and military might. Each subsequent tool being more heavy handed & less preferred than the last. Heavy handed tools while effective, break more than they fix. This prudence sustains Pax Americana.
In 2025 America, good will is at an all-time-low. Mechanisms for classical diplomacy are being actively dismantled by Elon-Trump. Financial bullying is now the cudgel of choice. Pax Americana is under threat.
Post-WW2 peace is among mankind's most remarkable civilizational achievements. It isn't self-evident and it definitely isn't the historic norm. How long until nations start questioning the deal ? How many decades of work is being dismantled within days ?
May be hyperbole, but the locks on Chesterton-Pandora's box are being opened. It might work out, but Elon's aggressiveness seems so unnecessary at a time when the American economy is doing exceedingly well.
diob 19 hours ago [-]
I'm honestly terrified that they'll turn my savings to some sort of nothing by fucking over our currency.
I don't know how anyone isn't.
akkad33 19 hours ago [-]
That sounds improbable. If US currency falls every western economy falls with it
diob 18 hours ago [-]
Improbable is probably how a lot of citizens of countries have felt in the past before their savings lost their worth. I'd rather us not be risking it at all.
ugexe 19 hours ago [-]
How does that make it improbable?
PaulRobinson 18 hours ago [-]
Not true. EUR and GBP will thrive.
hsuduebc2 15 hours ago [-]
It's just big tech weakening the power of state. The economics incentive is just a cover up for masses and politicians.
elzbardico 18 hours ago [-]
>> The US probably hasn't been this economically dominant since after WWII.
In which parallel reality do you live? Some metrics:
- U.S. share of global GDP (nominal). 40% in 1960 to around 24% nowadays.
- Share of global exports from the peak of 17% in 1963, to around 8.5% today (China is 14%).
- Global R&D expending from the 1960 peak of 69% to 30% today with China closing the gap currently at 23%.
- Reserve currency status of the Dollar dropped from 71% to 59%.
- Share of outward Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) 47% in 1960 vs 22% in 2022.
Even the strongest selling point of the american economy of being the largest consumer economy is strongly dependent on high levels of consumer debt as well as the ability to sustain gigantic trade deficits based on the global appetite for the dollar and US bonds.
And then we have some other points of concern: In 1950, manufacturing represented 28% of GDP, while FIRE was 10%. Today, manufacturing is 10%, and FIRE is 20%. FIRE’s dominance reflects financialization — prioritizing short-term profit through financial engineering over productive, long-term investment. It encourages Rent-Seeking vs Productive Activity, for example, in Finance, much of the sector’s growth comes from fees, interest, and speculative trading (e.g., derivatives, high-frequency trading) rather than financing innovation or infrastructure. In Real Estate Rising prices often reflect speculation rather than new construction or improved living standards. This leads to inequality amplification, FIRE disproportionately benefits high-income earners (e.g., Wall Street, landlords). The top 1% owns 53% of stocks and 40% of real estate wealth (Fed data), which exacerbates wealth gaps without broadly improving household economic security.
Real Estate alone now accounts for ~60% of corporate profits, something that create obvious systemic risks.
The US is still the richest and most powerful country in the world, but it is far from being as economically dominant as it was in the past, exactly the contrary of what you said.
I understand that after the gains we all had in the stock market in recent times, we might be tempted to consider this as a measure of the health of American Economy and considering market capitalizations, its global dominance. But that is a mistake. Stock Prices reflect investor sentiment, not fundamentals, they are driven by factors like speculation, liquidity and future expectations, not direct economic performance. Also, a handful of mega-cap companies dominate indexes, which introduces a lag that could mask broader economic issues. For example, the "Magnificent Seven" drove around 75% of the S&P 2023 gains, while small-cap stocks lagged. Also, tech and finance dominate markets, but they are not labor intensive, and thus they can't contribute as much to employment. Also, as the top 10% of the households own almost 90% of stocks, rising markets enrich the wealthy but don't reflect wage growth or living standards.
Also, a lot of the stock market exhuberance has been driven by things like stock buybacks, inflating share prices at the expense of investment and wages.
azakai 17 hours ago [-]
True that the US's share of global GDP is lower than it has been. But there are many other ways to measure its power (and dominance), so it is easy to argue about this between reasonable people.
Rather than make any specific point, I'd recommend acoup's detailed post about the US's overwhelming dominance across a huge swath of areas:
I think he makes a good case there, even if you are right and by some measurements the US did better in the past.
elzbardico 16 hours ago [-]
The US is still the most powerful economy in the world. No question about it.
What I was questioning was the argument from OP that it never have been as dominant since WWII. And no, the US has been way more powerful in the past, even if it is still the most powerful economy.
oblio 7 hours ago [-]
Regarding the metrics, 1945 to roughly 1971 or more realistically, 2010, were anomalies.
The US watched the rest of the world burn itself down during WW1 (partially) and during WW2 (almost completely).
There were basically 0 industrialized countries doing better in 1945 than they were in 1928.
The US reached those insane peaks because of a total aberration. It was never going to last.
China and India, for example, have been between 1/3 and 1/2 of the world economy for multiple millennia.
After the Age of Discovery Europe as a whole took over at least 1/3 itself.
The US would do well to adjust to this new reality, but I guess the temptation to make America great again is too strong.
karuselli 18 hours ago [-]
Agreed - it’s arguably as much a risk-on behavior as the excessive spending they’re warning about.
They are using a similar cut-first mentality to what has been done in the private sector, but in the govt there are more considerations than the direct economic impacts of the actions. In an ideal world the better route is likely to spend more time on analysis before making cuts and to try and reduce variance, but it’s fair to say that might impede the initiative entirely plus they are trying to act quickly before the opposition wakes up.
nxobject 15 hours ago [-]
Or, for that matter, before the judiciary can act as a balance. Establishing “facts on the ground”.
22 hours ago [-]
ggddv 19 hours ago [-]
Chesterton fence == I don’t have an argument but I do have a fence and you don’t, so I guess somebody should have learnt their lesson!
almostdeadguy 17 hours ago [-]
Young, inexperienced people have a hard time saying “no”. It’s even harder when working 120 hour weeks where you have less than 7 hours a day outside work (not even enough to get a full nights rest): https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-doge-work-silicon-...
Sleep deprivation, stress and overwork, controlling the lives of participants, targeting at risk populations, etc. are cult programming techniques.
insane_dreamer 20 hours ago [-]
Closing USAID is idiotic from a foreign policy perspective. Gives China a huge opportunity to fill the void in countries and grow its global influence. It’s already done so in Africa due to US being so preoccupied with the “war on terror”.
Not to mention that aiding developing countries - reduces chances of instability/conflicts/etc which otherwise end up costing much more. Plus it’s about access to raw materials (why do you think China cares about Africa?).
Idiotic no matter how you look at it.
nxm 18 hours ago [-]
A lot of what USAID was spending money on would shock people. Meanwhile, no money left to rebuild parts of the US
hirsin 16 hours ago [-]
HUD and FEMA alone are 2.5x larger than USAID's budget, so while I can't argue with the unsourced bit that it would be shocking, it's clear there is and was even more money being spent on Americans too.
insane_dreamer 17 hours ago [-]
Oh please enough with the hand wavy bs. Give some examples of how much we are “saving” and what is being cut, and what it will be spent on to “rebuild” America (whatever tf that means). Then we can be the judges of how shocking or not it is.
LastTrain 15 hours ago [-]
First, give some examples of what you are talking about. Second, we spend all kinds of money on things I don't agree with, which is how it works.
doctorpangloss 20 hours ago [-]
> fences are getting torn up left and right by people too young and incurious to possibly understand why those fences might be there.
So you're saying they hired a bunch of undistinguished Berkeley drop-outs just because they're libertarians? A sort of affirmative action for libertarians?
It's always projection with these guys.
paganel 7 hours ago [-]
> The US probably hasn't been this economically dominant since after WWII.
That may be true if you look at the US in isolation, they're much richer now compared to 1950, but they've never had a strong a contender as China is right now. The Soviets were matching them militarily back in the Cold War years but they were never close to surpass them economically, like China is now in the process of doing.
huijzer 21 hours ago [-]
> The US probably hasn't been this economically dominant since after WWII.
Where do you base that on? China’s GDP is huge. It overtook the whole EU’s GDP.
jasondigitized 13 hours ago [-]
I was literally going to quote Chesterson's fence. How are people this smart and also this dumb?
19 hours ago [-]
mystified5016 22 hours ago [-]
Some people in the us government are very afraid of China.
Whether that fear is justified is a totally different topic
psunavy03 21 hours ago [-]
Why yes, let's let a totalitarian state become a superpower and start dictating the international order. I'm sure Xi Jinping will prove to be just as cuddly as Winnie the Pooh; nothing to worry about here.
HotPotato787 21 hours ago [-]
I bet you're from the USA, so this may be hard for you to understand given your context, but as someone from LATAM, let me tell you: China can try really hard to be evil - they will have a LOT of work to be worse than the US.
dekhn 21 hours ago [-]
That's mainly because the USA's flaws have been covered in far more detail, and has also played a bigger role in Latin America. Once those countries start to deal with China more you may find your observations were biased.
HotPotato787 21 hours ago [-]
You're right, but that's not the point.
Being afraid that another state will become the leading superpower and "dictate the international order" when your oligarchical country has been doing the same thing for the past 70~ years, and not in a "cuddly as Mickey Mouse" way, is HILARIOUS. The doublethink is off the charts! hahahaha.
thomassmith65 19 hours ago [-]
America has been truly 'oligarchal' for approximately the past one month, whereas China has been a totalitarian state for the better part of a century.
Why not compare the Allies with the Axis next? The US was segregated, right, so... hey, same difference! /s
rKarpinski 18 hours ago [-]
The US has a pretty extensive 100+ year history of imperialism, destabilization and violence in LATM [1], which is where they are from.
A surprising number of people don't seem to know the first thing about China. Hey, it might not help that China doesn't allow a fifth of the world to learn the history of China.
But let's talk again in four years. The way things are going in America, I may agree with you guys by then :(
Daishiman 21 hours ago [-]
How many democratically-elected democracies has China overthrown through bloody dictatorships?
gowld 20 hours ago [-]
CCP's dictatorship bloodily conquered China, population 1.4B, 20% of the entire planet's people.
USA has also rescued hundreds of millions of people (including China!) from bloody conquerers, as in WW II.
dekhn 20 hours ago [-]
You're arguing with folks who just want to be angry, not listen to facts or sage observations.
(it's not like the US is innocent; we have made a huge number of terrible mistakes attempting to maintain the Pax Americana. I fully acknowledge while being fairly sure that China could and would do far, far worse than the US)
Daishiman 20 hours ago [-]
This speculation that China could do far worse is totally unfounded given that they've had plenty of time to push buttons militarily that the US and the Soviet Union had already pushed with much less military power.
greatpatton 20 hours ago [-]
What democratic government did they overthrew? Because the ROC was no more democratic than the CCP... and Taiwan didn't have real election till the 1990.
thomassmith65 19 hours ago [-]
If this kind of take is what I missed by never installing TikTok, I don't regret it.
Also, China did try it only a few decades ago. Murder, starvation, horrific torture, reeducation camps, brainwashed children denouncing their parents... impressively evil. Not that Tiananmen Square or Uyghur ethnic cleansing or kidnappings of expat dissidents are so much better.
psunavy03 1 hours ago [-]
It's extremely telling that you're bringing up the atrocities of the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward and being downvoted as if the US had ever done anything to that scale.
For sure this country has its own flawed history with slavery and treatment of Native Americans, but China is absolutely on its own level with Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.
jacobjjacob 21 hours ago [-]
Should we become a totalitarian state in order to compete with another? That feels like McCarthyism/Cold War/ “authoritarianism is fine as long as it isn’t communism” vibes.
Cthulhu_ 20 hours ago [-]
I can see why one would think that; China is very successful in the world market (or, getting there) despite it not having a free market as such (although it has freed up a lot); despite, or is it because, it being a totalitarian state it is quickly catching up to the US, being the 2nd economy of the world; they still have like $10 trillion to go, but charts like https://www.statista.com/statistics/1070632/gross-domestic-p... predict China will overtake the US by 2030 at the current rate.
And there's nothing the US can do. Cutting government spending and starting trade wars with neighbours is not going to stop it. Building up a totalitarian state with deep government influence into businesses is not going to work and will be actively resisted, since Big Government is so against the principles of the current regime's voters - and China has been working on this for decades now. Free market won't work either, as it's already very free in the US itself - but the aggression of US companies in their sales practices, tax dodging, and privacy violations have caused their foreign customers like Europe to raise the defenses.
TL;DR, while I can see how totalitarianism can in theory create a strong economy, it isn't going to fly / work in the US.
LastTrain 15 hours ago [-]
Some people can't handle the idea that China has more people and are roughly as resource rich as the US, so if they work hard like we do they will naturally have the bigger economy.
coolThingsFirst 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
bitsage 19 hours ago [-]
That’s an interesting thought because I saw Trump, and many other elections, as a conservative reaction. A main complaint I see is people thinking the country is going backwards, rather than into uncharted territory.
UltraSane 16 hours ago [-]
This is actually curtis yarvin's RAGE (retire all government employees) concept.
Curtis Yarvin, an extreme right-wing tech person out of Silicon Valley and the person who JD Vance is a disciple of.
Their belief is that the U.S. government itself “must be deleted” and that what the country needs is not a president but a dictator, which is what a CEO of any successful corporation actually is. Yarvin said that the American people “must get over their ‘dictator phobia’” while Vance says we have to do things that make even conservatives “uncomfortable.”
watwut 21 hours ago [-]
It does not matter. If republican party voters cared about appropriateness, they would not picked up Trump and Musk. They picked them because they wanted to see maximal harm and they see lack of ethics/morals as strength.
jazz9k 19 hours ago [-]
No. They want to stop the bleeding from the last 4 years. I blame the person that made the mess. Not the one cleaning it up and showing it to us.
hsuduebc2 15 hours ago [-]
If you are bleeding from the wound on your head it does not mean you need to cut off your legs. This is just weakening of state while covering it under this charade.
Inflation was because of pandemic and wars. Rest is absolute nonsense.
jazz9k 14 hours ago [-]
The Biden administration just had to make things easier for businesses after covid. They had a very easy job and couldn't even get that right.
Instead, The biggest oil pipeline in the US was shutdown on day one and increased regulations led to our current situation with inflation.
The democrats are also war mongers and want to have perpetual wars to line their pockets.
It's telling when there isn't one negative story about Biden/the democrats (especially when we found out they were colluding with big tech to suppress the speech of average citizens) in 4 years, and we immedialy get slop hit piece articles about Trump and Musk.
KerrAvon 22 hours ago [-]
No, they are not. This is a bizarre and highly illegal coup by Musk simply because he can, and who's going to enforce the law? Trump's corrupt DOJ?
bende511 20 hours ago [-]
In a just world, these kids will end up in jail for a long time, and Musk for the rest of his life. In a less just world, well, I don't want to get banned
toast0 21 hours ago [-]
I don't get how this could be a coup, Trump was duly elected, and he's delegated this power to Musk. It could certainly be bizarre and highly illegal, but to me, the essential piece of a coup is unseating the rightful leadership, and there's no element of that at present.
Judging from his last term, at some point Trump is likely to get tired of Musk, kick him out of the administration, declare he always thought Musk was a bad guy, and pretend like he never listened to him. If Musk tries to stay in after that, it could be a coup.
stetrain 21 hours ago [-]
> A self-coup, also called an autocoup (from Spanish autogolpe) or coup from the top, is a form of coup d'état in which a political leader, having come to power through legal means, stays in power through illegal means through the actions of themselves and/or their supporters.[1] The leader may dissolve or render powerless the national legislature and unlawfully assume extraordinary powers. Other measures may include annulling the nation's constitution, suspending civil courts, and having the head of government assume dictatorial powers.[2][3]
For a recent example see the events in South Korea with President Yoon.
invalidOrTaken 20 hours ago [-]
But which of those actually fits the present situation? Four years haven't passed. Congress is not dissolved. It's literally just a bunch of executive orders and firings within the executive branch, which, last time I checked Article II, is under the authority of the president.
stetrain 19 hours ago [-]
I think “unlawfully assume extraordinary powers” may apply.
It’s certainly debatable, but shutting down agencies created and authorized by Congress and refusing to distribute funding legislated by Congress seems to be an overstep of executive power, and therefore an undermining of Congress’s power.
My main point was that ousting an incumbent or defying an election is not a requirement for something to be a coup, as the previous comment was suggesting. A legitimately elected official seizing more power than they are legally entitled to is a form of coup.
invalidOrTaken 19 hours ago [-]
There is certainly a transfer of power going on, but whether that's unlawful will be for the courts to decide.
stetrain 18 hours ago [-]
I’m not sure a court ruling is a requirement for something to be called a coup.
invalidOrTaken 12 hours ago [-]
anyone can call anything anything, sure(is it a "coup" when I paint a good painting, or win a game of chess? https://www.thefreedictionary.com/coup), but the great-grandparent comment referred to a "bizarre and highly illegal" coup.
Rodeoclash 19 hours ago [-]
First the coup starts happening, then the coup happens
neogodless 21 hours ago [-]
Seizing legislative power, which up until about 7 days ago included all control over federal funding, for the executive branch is a coup.
kristianbrigman 14 hours ago [-]
It's always been clear to me that federal agencies aren't allowed to spend money that congress hasn't authorized.
It's been less clear to me whether federal agencies are obligated to spend money that congress has authorized.
Thanks, I had to dig, but impoundment looks like what i need to research.
Levitz 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
neogodless 21 hours ago [-]
From the dictionary:
> A sudden appropriation of leadership or power; a takeover.
Yes, it's well-known for taking leadership, but any kind of appropriation of power like this is a coup.
Levitz 3 hours ago [-]
So you would agree with my statement that "That's not a coup as anyone understands the word." then
jacobjjacob 21 hours ago [-]
Separation of powers, checks and balances. The executive branch taking powers from the legislative branch with the judicial branch approving can be seen as a coup.
Trump cannot legally delegate his power to just anyone. Delegations of power are done through appointed positions that must be confirmed by the Senate.
vkou 20 hours ago [-]
He also doesn't have the power to just shut down a part of the government created and funded by an act of congress.
themaninthedark 20 hours ago [-]
It looks to me like this is the natural outcome of the executive branch deciding what mandates from congress it will uphold. I.E. deciding which laws to focus on enforcing and which one's to have lax/non-existent focus.
Until Congress grows a spine and starts legislating again, the executive will continue to run rampant.
stetrain 19 hours ago [-]
I’m not sure how having Congress “start legislating again” would be effective if the executive branch can simply ignore that legislation under your interpretation.
mrguyorama 17 hours ago [-]
Congress did this on purpose.
Republican's STATED OBJECTIVE for decades has been obstructionism, entirely so they can go on the news and say "Look how ineffective the government is". Go look at how debates happened on the floor of congress 40 years ago. Go look at the AMOUNT of work done by a functioning congress. Compare it to how little republicans have done in congress since.
Then go ask republican voters and they will tell you that they explicitly prefer a congress that does nothing.
They want a king.
rtkwe 21 hours ago [-]
There's so many laws they're breaking it's hard to name them all and that's part of the point, flood the zone with misbehavior and it becomes difficult to track and react to it all. The President is not a little tyrant able to do whatever he wants with the Executive Branch just because he was elected, the idea that he is and should be is a bizarre new reading ideologically motivated to allow someone like Trump to tear anything they don't like to shreds and only keep the parts they want.
watwut 21 hours ago [-]
If it is illegal, then it can be coup. You are elected to act within the law.
Democracy becomes non democracy by illegal acta, typically.
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
It's only democracy when I like it.
stetrain 20 hours ago [-]
Conversely: It’s only an overstep of constitutional power when I don’t like it.
rqtwteye 21 hours ago [-]
Don't forget that Trump is approaching 80. I don't know how well he will be able to keep up.
dekhn 21 hours ago [-]
I would use the term 'purge' for what's happened so far, along with 'seizure'. the coup would come after the purge, once musk has full control of the monetary system and the republican congressional leadership and the courts have made it clear they won't do anything to stop Trump.
Cthulhu_ 20 hours ago [-]
Whether Trump was duly (?) elected is still up for debate, after all he's a convicted felon, an insurrectionist, there's investigations into voter fraud, and foreign interference / propaganda that helped get him elected again.
He can't just delegate power to an unelected civilian like this.
To invoke Godwin's law, Hitler was democratically elected, Austria democratically voted to join the Reich, the people of the UK voted in favor of leaving Europe. Just because it doesn't technically meet your definition of a coup, doesn't mean it's a hostile takeover of the country's government and systems. But if you'd rather argue semantics that's fine too. If this keeps up, the US government will shut down by March and people will die - or, more will, as there's a link between the plane crashes and the Trump admin's cutting down on already understaffed air control staff.
skywhopper 21 hours ago [-]
This isn’t Trump’s power to delegate. Congress dictates spending, not the President. Usurping that power from Congress is the coup.
XorNot 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
watwut 21 hours ago [-]
This will be downvoted, but it is mostly true. Altrough that election was highly violent, there was large suppression going on.
immibis 21 hours ago [-]
I don't think you're allowed to say that on Hacker News.
technothrasher 18 hours ago [-]
Hitler wasn't elected, he was appointed chancellor by Hindenburg. He then used the Reichstag Fire Decree to arrest the opposition to his Enabling Act, guaranteeing it's passage and solidifying his hold on power.
ceejayoz 17 hours ago [-]
That’s some careful hair splitting.
He was legally placed in the role by the democratically available processes in place after his party won significant seats in several elections.
jeffgreco 22 hours ago [-]
Not sure why this is being downvoted as Musk & co's actions are clearly bizarre and illegal.
nomel 21 hours ago [-]
Do you have a reference for "clearly", from case law or a lawyer/judges perspective? IANAL, and I don't see any commenting here.
bende511 20 hours ago [-]
have you ever read the constitution, or thought about governance for even 5 minutes? do you have any understanding of the history of this country, or do we need to direct the nearest 1st grader to your location to explain it to you?
fifilura 20 hours ago [-]
I don't disagree, but I read this as unnecessary hyperbole to an honest question.
bende511 20 hours ago [-]
its not an honest question. what is happening is so clearly and obviously illegal and unconstitutional that literal children understand it.
raptorfactor 19 hours ago [-]
Then why not just explain it? It would be far more persuasive than acting rabid.
skywhopper 21 hours ago [-]
What do you think is going on exactly that there’s any remote chance that someone who isn’t a political appointee or employee of the government can be given the power to stop all payments to federal contractors or abolish Congressionally established agencies? The President doesn’t have those powers, much less Elon Musk.
nomel 21 hours ago [-]
I already said I'm not a lawyer. My perspective and opinion aren't relevant.
dekhn 21 hours ago [-]
You don't have to be a lawyer to have perspective or opinion on the law. It just means you're probably less technically educated than most lawyers.
nomel 18 hours ago [-]
While it's true that a perspective and opinion can be made by me, it's in no way tied to the reality of how the courts will view it, which is all that matters, which is why I want an informed perspective and opinion, from the domain of law. A good example for the value of people's opinions vs how something is interpreted is Roe vs Wade.
If you have an informed reference that helped you achieve such clarity, I'm very interested. Unfortunately, my armchair has a broken leg, so I'm unable to use it at the moment. And, search engines are completely failing me.
affinepplan 21 hours ago [-]
that's a little self-flagellatory. I don't think it takes a whole lot of legal education to recognize that what is happening is not legal.
most lawyers aren't constitutional scholars either. do you really think an expertise in personal injury law in Rhode Island makes one more qualified to recognize that an unelected billionaire shutting down organizations without any Congressional approval or appointment is illegal?
Cornbilly 22 hours ago [-]
The downvotes are because Musk has a large personality cult, especially on tech oriented sites like HN.
aaomidi 21 hours ago [-]
Also because they can easily afford to completely change the voting system on these sites lol
electriclove 22 hours ago [-]
Can you explain what is illegal? Aren’t the people that Wired doxxed actually being paid by the government?
DannyBee 21 hours ago [-]
I'll add to the other good reply - in our constitutional system, branches are not allowed to delegate significant amounts of their power to other entities.
So congress, for example, cannot delegate making laws to some other entity.
The courts, for example, cannot give their judicial power to others.
Similarly, the president can't delegate significant executive authority to others.
Where are the limits of this?
It's usually about delegating significant amounts of power or functions that the constitution explicit calls out as being owned.
But the limits are not tested often, so not tons of cases.
In the case of agencies, the executive branch also has no power in the first place to either set up, or disband, agencies.
This is a power that congress owns.
They can't, per above, delegate it, even if they wanted to.
I asked ChatGPT and it said many other agencies were established by EOs (e.g. FEMA, NSA, NASA, EPA). Quote from ChatGPT: "Many agencies later received congressional authorization, but their initial formation or restructuring was often directed by executive orders."
So it seems like the last paragraph is incorrect.
DannyBee 20 hours ago [-]
It's not wrong, it just depends on what you consider an "agency".
If you mean "any organized entity that contains federal employees", by that definition, sure lots of "agencies" exist that are created by the different branches.
If you mean "something that can create binding regulations that interpret or implement law" - no, those have to be authorized by congress in some fashion. Even if they are run by the executive later, which is also somewhat muddy.
etc
Traditionally, they agencies are the things that have officers who are nominated by the president and approved by the senate, and have useful power as a result :)
I'll also point out - even the ones that are entirely created by other branches (executive, judicial) have to be funded by congress one way or the other.
This includes all the ones you listed.
They cannot legally spend money otherwise - ""no money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by law".
Sometimes they are created with a small, more general emergency appropriation or something, but again, if they want to spend money, that also requires them to be authorized and appropriated by congress.
Some of the more interesting questions that we have thankfully never had to answer for real (outside of blustering) is around various branches using their power to deliberately interfere with the basic functioning of other branches (except as authorized by the constitution, which, for example, says congress can set the jurisdiction of courts except for the supreme court. Where we've come close to it has mostly been around appropriations designed to force another branch to do or not do a certain thing. We may come a lot closer the next few years depending on what happens.
The constitutional limit is easy (none of them is more powerful than the other, and may not interfere with the basic sovereignty of each other), but the lines are not.
srv02 18 hours ago [-]
Sure, thanks for the explanation! I didn't mean to imply that this was intentionally misleading, just wanted to point out that a lot (most?) of people, including mainstream media, are using the term "government agency" with a meaning closer to your first definition. And with that in mind it's valid to say that the exec branch actually does have the power to create / disband agencies.
And even if we stick to the latter definition of the "agency" - it feels like there's a certain asymmetry here. Perhaps EOs can't be used to create a new agency, because that requires new funding to be approved by another branch. But what about disbanding an existing agency? That doesn't require approving new funding, right? So what stopping an EO to disband an agency?
DannyBee 16 hours ago [-]
Sure - let me try to give you a complete answer.
So the thing about appropriations is - they actually have to spend them unless it says something else.
It's not like a budget. It's an order to spend money a certain way. That's why generally congress is said to have the power of the purse - they give the directions on how money is spent.
So appropriations come with directions, time frames, etc.
The executive branch must spend them as directed, and they must be applied to the specific purpose as directed.
This is also why you will sometimes find federal agencies or the military spending infinite money towards the end of the fiscal year, because they are just making sure they spent all the money they were supposed to. Again, sometimes the appropriation says "spend up to", etc. But whatever it says, they have to do it.
So if they say "you have to spend 1 billion on USAID", they must in fact, spend 1 billion on USAID.
Let's take the agencies that are specifically authorized or created by congress out of the picture - they literally can't disband these (and i don't believe they've tried yet). These are usually the things created or later authorized by bills that say something like "their shall be an office of the xyz" or something similar.
(I just picked a random one, the establishment language is fairly standard, the rest i have no opinion on :P)
Given it is created and provided for by law, it must be disbanded in the same manner - legislation that removes it.
So if we are sticking to the other ones - it basically comes down to whether an appropriations bill allows it in some fashion.
Does it say "1 billion must be spent on USAID" or does it say "1 billion must be spent on giving aid to ukraine" or does it say ....
That is what in practice, enables or prevents an EO from disbanding an agency that is not specifically provided for by congress.
At least, as far as money/etc goes. There may be other reasons they can or can't disband an agency.
For example, Congress has a congressional research service that provides it with information. It is basic to the functioning of congress (or just slightly above basic). Whether established by law or not, it's unlikely to be constitutional for the executive to disband an agency that another branch depends on, since they are supposed to be coequal branches.
This has rarely, if ever, been tested in practice though.
Even when different branches have hated each other with a passion in the past, the degree to which they would test the limits of constitutional power while pissing on each other was fairly restrained.
There are a few exceptions, but they are definitely the exception and not the rule.
Also keep in mind - while the president has some special powers, the general purpose of the executive branch is simple - to faithfully execute the laws. The only discretion in even doing that comes from the laws themselves and the constitution's description of the executive's discretion.
EO's (no matter who makes them) were not intended to be a path for the executive to do whatever it wants, and use power not granted to the executive
I say this not offering a view on the legality or not or wisdom or not, just trying to make sure i answer your question completely.
mike_hearn 21 hours ago [-]
> So congress, for example, cannot delegate making laws to some other entity
But this is standard practice, no? The US system is rather unusual compared to Parliamentary systems in that Congress delegates precisely this power to the executive all the time.
rtkwe 20 hours ago [-]
It's muddy but the Executive isn't making laws it makes regulations constrained by and implementing the laws passed by Congress. It's all nominally rooted in some law the Congress passed and instead of just making those interpretations known when they sue you because you're using a financial instrument to defraud people there's a whole process of making it known how the Executive believe the old laws relate to new situations. Congress has neither the bandwidth nor the knowledge to keep abreast of every novel maneuver around the law so they say this type of thing is illegal and this agency is in charge of saying what type new things are.
A great example of that are with various toxins and pollutants, there's no system in which we can go through the whole process of making a new law every time we discover that some miracle chemical is giving people giga-cancer. Instead Congress tasks an agency full of experts to decide what safe levels of the giga-cancer causing chemical is and makes sure we only ingest slightly below the LD50 of that so we can statistically live.
mike_hearn 20 hours ago [-]
Yeah, but it's a distinction without a difference because some of the "fill in the blanks" stuff Congress does is so vague that executive agencies in practice write plenty of new laws from scratch. It's not just adding specific items to lists.
And then there's also plenty of cases where the constitution is just ignored without consequence. The CDC unilaterally announced payments to landlords were suspended during COVID, something it had no power to do. It didn't cause much of a fuss.
acdha 15 hours ago [-]
Regulations are nowhere near that freeform, and they have extensive public review and commentary. The EPA was in court for years debating whether CO2 could be included under the Clean Air Act because they had to stay in the narrow lanes Congress created.
The CDC case seems to make the opposite point: they took a broad interpretation of the public health act, and it was rejected in the courts as exceeding what Congress had intended:
Right, of course, it was clearly illegal but during the key period the CDC got what it wanted anyway. There were apparently no repercussions for this behavior, is making a decision this latest struck down by the courts are valid justification under federal employment law of the terminating employees?
jquery 3 hours ago [-]
Clearly illegal? The CDC temporary eviction moratorium went to our conservative Supreme Court and they ruled 5-4 in the CDC's favor. Maybe based on the fact we were dealing with a worldwide pandemic.
rtkwe 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah and ultimately in a very real politik way whatever the Supreme Court says is Constitutional is Constitutional because they are vested with the final say on what the Constitution means at any particular moment.
The CDC has pretty vast powers in a public health emergency and IMO the ability to forcibly quarantine people is a power far beyond the ability to pause evictions and is maybe even a necessary part of the former. (Can't really quarantine someone if their landlord can just throw them out right?)
jeffgreco 22 hours ago [-]
No, they are not actually part of the government, authorized by any act of Congress, nor paid by it.
derangedHorse 21 hours ago [-]
Yes they are. If they are part of DOGE then they are part of the executive office of the President, which would be considered a part of government
There is no such thing as DOGE. Any new “construct” and its directives need to be created and funded by Congress. Musk isn’t even legally an employee of the federal government.
The President can hire him and Congress could direct him to do what he’s doing, but that step has been skipped.
That’s why this is massively illegal
20 hours ago [-]
adunsulag 20 hours ago [-]
They renamed the US Digital Services agency to be DOGE. I don't know if they can rename a branch of government but that's how they are doing it. Musk has then gotten Trump to appoint members of his initial DOGE as representatives in each of the departments (Treasury, Commerce, etc) so they can have acting authority.
Trump's delegated Musk as a Special Government Operative and signed executive orders granting him and all his recommended employees security clearances w/o the requisite background checks that normally would be required.
So they are acting within the government, they are employees, and they've been granted special waivers by Trump to do all this craziness.
I think its going to come down more to the courts looking at whether these 'newly appointed employees' are breaking all kinds of laws passed by congress.
ChicagoDave 19 hours ago [-]
Again. All of these things must go through Congress. The President signs laws. He doesn't alter or create them.
Maxious 16 hours ago [-]
The power President Trump is lawfully exercising in the executive order to control the Executive Office of the President of the United States stems from the Reorganization Act of 1939 (via https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Executive_Order_8248) which FDR had to get Congress to pass after his previous efforts to reorganize the executive branch during the Great Depression were deemed unconsititutional.
Critics at the time warned this Act would give the president too much power.
jquery 3 hours ago [-]
The Reorganization Act of 1939 lapsed after 2 years. Trump would need a new Congressional Reorganization Act to do what he's doing with DOGE.
liontwist 16 hours ago [-]
What does the executive branch do?
ChicagoDave 9 hours ago [-]
Gotta say I'm surprised. I thought for sure I'd get ratio'd by Muskovites, but it seems people have woken up and realize our democracy is literally at stake.
The only way we prevent the worst case scenario is to stand up to authoritarian power.
Keep shining the light on these bad actors. Let's send them home.
Trump is not king. Musk has no authority. DOGE is a hacker crew without a legal mandate.
Trump's team is claiming that anything computerized falls under USDS purview, hence the parasitic hijacking of the US Digital Service.
__loam 21 hours ago [-]
They're accessing extremely sensitive government systems that do things like disburse trillions of dollars in federal funding and trying to shut down agencies like USAID. I highly doubt they have the right clearances for that. Additionally, congress controls the purse, not the executive branch. Even if DOGE was an above board agency approved by congress, withholding money that congress approved is incredibly illegal and may lead to a real constitutional crisis.
derangedHorse 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
skywhopper 18 hours ago [-]
Giving their names is hardly doxxing them, especially since they are breaking the law. And if they are government employees, it would still be illegal to hack into sensitive databases, copy data to insecure devices, suspend payments to federal contractors, bar federal employees from their offices, and disband entire agencies.
danesparza 21 hours ago [-]
If a presidential aide ordered USAID staffers to not go to work and physically locked them out, it would violate multiple federal laws and protections. Here’s why:
1. USAID Employees Have Legal Employment Protections
USAID employees—both civil servants and Foreign Service officers—are protected by federal employment laws. A presidential aide cannot simply tell them to stop working without a legal order, such as an official reorganization approved by Congress or a government shutdown following a funding lapse.
Under Title 5 of the U.S. Code, federal employees cannot be arbitrarily removed or prevented from performing their duties.
The Anti-Deficiency Act (31 U.S.C. § 1341) prohibits government officials from unilaterally stopping agency operations without congressional authorization.
2. Locking USAID Buildings Would Violate Security & Property Laws
Physically locking the doors to prevent USAID employees from entering their offices would likely violate:
18 U.S.C. § 371 (Conspiracy to defraud the U.S. Government) if it were done to obstruct lawful government operations.
18 U.S.C. § 1361 (Willful injury of government property) if it involved unlawful restriction of access to a federal facility.
Federal Continuity Directives require that government agencies maintain essential functions even in emergencies.
3. Presidential Authority Has Limits
The President does not have unilateral authority to suspend an entire federal agency’s operations without following proper legal processes.
Only Congress can permanently dissolve an agency like USAID by repealing its statutory mandate.
Even if a president wanted to reorganize or defund USAID, they would need to work through legal channels—such as submitting a restructuring plan to Congress.
What Could Happen If Someone Tried This?
If an aide illegally ordered staffers to stop working and locked the doors, several things could happen:
Congressional & Legal Challenges – USAID officials or Congress could sue, arguing the action was unlawful.
Federal Court Intervention – A court could issue an injunction blocking the order.
Potential Criminal Charges – Any official involved in obstructing a federal agency’s work could face legal consequences.
Historical Precedents
Trump’s 2018-2019 Government Shutdown: While federal agencies, including USAID, were partially shut down due to funding lapses, career employees were still required to follow proper procedures.
Nixon’s Attempt to Defund Agencies: President Nixon tried to defund programs by impounding funds, but Congress passed the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974, limiting executive control over funding.
Bottom Line
Simply ordering USAID employees to stop working and locking the doors would be blatantly illegal and would likely lead to immediate legal challenges, congressional intervention, and possible criminal liability for those involved.
clutchdude 21 hours ago [-]
To pile on, the very data they have in their hands probably has very strict legal requirements for storing/moving and distributing. Failure to account for proper processes can be held against them.
It's only matter of time until one of these clowns starts "accidentally" touching data like the 2020 census individual response data.
To me, that's the red line: If they can touch that and suffer no consequence, then there is no law or process can exist to ensure accountability of the government.
I still remember false pearl clutching over Clinton emails.
alwa 21 hours ago [-]
I don’t have the legal background to assess the accuracy of this response. Assuming it came from ChatGPT, how did you go about validating its correctness (and its relevance to the unprecedented new state of affairs) before posting?
danesparza 7 hours ago [-]
"unprecedented new state of affairs"
Are you suggesting the rule of law doesn't apply anymore? If so, why are you bothering to read Hacker News? Run!
bee_rider 21 hours ago [-]
It is not really good faith to assume that somebody has posted a chatGPT response and doesn’t know what the thing spat out. Assuming they wrote it themselves, they assessed the accuracy of the response by looking up the numerous citations that they used.
lmm 12 hours ago [-]
Look at the phrasing. That post was blatantly written by ChatGPT (or similar).
21 hours ago [-]
naravara 19 hours ago [-]
The young and incurious have been targeted, recruited, and brainwashed into this by tech moguls for just this reason. A steady diet of calcified resentments against vague, post-modernist buzzword nonsense like “woke” and “DEI” has created a whole political movement around getting unreasonably angry over feeling slighted about symbolic representation in pop culture to the point where they’re going to bring the whole country down it’s insane.
But of course, that’s exactly what would be oligarchs want.
19 hours ago [-]
jmyeet 18 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure why people are focusing on the engineers here. The fish rots from the head.
Elon is the definition of Dunning-Kruger. He seems smart (maybe) when he's talking about something you know nothing about but as soon as he talks about something you do know about, the illusion quickly shatters. Many here learned this after the Twitter takeover when he started talking about software and technical infrastructure.
The only thing going on here is some performative cuts to mollify the base and make some headlines. The real goal here is looting the public purse for the (further) benefit of the ultra-wealthy.
Welcome to the kleptocracy.
nxobject 15 hours ago [-]
It’s the definition of failing up: you sin bullshit for long enough, and make big enough changes, that you get your next job before you’re accountable for the consequences.
wetpaws 21 hours ago [-]
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TacticalCoder 19 hours ago [-]
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Dig1t 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
tines 21 hours ago [-]
> The founding fathers were all younger than these guys.
Who do you consider to be the founding fathers? Franklin was 70 in 1776. Washington was 44. Adams was 40. Jefferson was 36.
Dig1t 21 hours ago [-]
You are correct and I was wrong about the founding fathers. I have updated my comment to say "some of America's greatest leaders". Which is correct.
evanelias 21 hours ago [-]
No, it is not correct. That tweet is clearly being deceptive by listing their ages when the revolution started in 1776, which is largely irrelevant for these four and when they were impactful to the country. At minimum it should list their age when the US Constitution was ratified, which was 13 years later, in 1789.
Also, you consider Aaron Burr one of America's greatest leaders? He literally committed treason.
Yes, but that's largely because he was arrested before his plot could be implemented.
In any case, viewing Burr as one of the "greatest leaders" of America is absurdly out of step with historical consensus.
ceejayoz 20 hours ago [-]
OJ was acquitted, too.
ambicapter 21 hours ago [-]
Yes, you can always make your statement more vague to make it more "correct".
dragonwriter 20 hours ago [-]
> Some of America's greatest leaders were younger than these guys.
All of them were at some point in their lives, but generally not when they were “America’s greatest leaders”.
(And none of the guys in your first linked X post were in charge of the revolution, even remotely, in 1776—Hamilton, for instance, was doing some of the heroics as a young captain that got him noticed and on the fast track that ended up in top leadership positions, but that's a far cry from being a top leader.)
allturtles 21 hours ago [-]
> The founding fathers were all younger than these guys.
You are correct and I was wrong about the founding fathers. I have updated my comment to say "some of America's greatest leaders". Which is correct.
JohnnyMarcone 20 hours ago [-]
You are still linking to a tweet with misinformation.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
tehjoker 21 hours ago [-]
What are you talking about? The whole reason this is happening is because US economic dominance is being eclipsed and dedollarization is occurring at a rapid pace. This is a freak out and reorganization of foreign policy and the economy to cope with that situation.
TOMDM 21 hours ago [-]
Is there any data you can share that backs that up?
woopwoop 18 hours ago [-]
Here is data from the IMF, for example, showing US and EU area GDP as a percentage of global output over time, gradually declining since 1980. The decline from 1960 to 1980 in the US was even more dramatic: in 1960 the United States GDP was about 40% of global GDP.
US GDP growth is slow, China's is high and BRICS is coalescing.
In not too long, China's GDP will eclipse ours and their cooperative foreign policy as opposed to our full spectrum dominance policy will yield major benefits. Dedollarization is proceeding apace, and it accelerates with each sanction and aggressive and arbitrary move by the US. Other countries used to have no choice, but now choices are opening up. The end of dollar dominance ends the most powerful tool of U.S. hegemony and turns us into a mere great power, not the lord of the world.
Trump's policy is about corruption yes, but also likely about wringing more efficiency out of American industry by reducing worker protections and reducing middle management positions. They are trying different methods to juice growth. I don't think it will work for very long.
iszomer 17 hours ago [-]
Small twist: Panama "pledged" to exit China's BRI.
Sure, a cold war has started and China is the enemy. But why make enemies out of your closest allies?
The US tried tariffs during Japan's rise as an automobile powerhouse. Look where that's left the American auto industry.
Sanctions have their place as a carrot and stick mechanism. But Trump offers no carrots. Only stick.
mrguyorama 16 hours ago [-]
It's impossible to get these people to stop deluding themselves. My dad is a contractor and literally watched Trump's tariffs make his job harder and his materials more expensive from 2016-2020, and still has all the spreadsheets that show how much it has affected his clients and how the price never came down
You can bet your ass he still voted for Trump. "I don't even like the guy" he insists.
The farmers that voted for Trump in droves in 2016 got FUCKED by his tariffs and retaliation from China. Trump had to sign off billions of dollars to offset their losses. They still voted for him in droves. Vibes don't care about the very clear data on the spreadsheet.
A huge portion of my state's lobster industry goes to China, because there literally is not a big enough market here in the states. Selling to China took the industry from barely staying afloat and selling lobster for cheaper than beef half the time, to being a healthy industry that didn't have to worry about oversupply. They will be fucked if China notices. They still voted for Trump.
All these people have FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with how much Trump hurts our economy. They don't care. "immigrants" or some bullshit. Funny, the guys up north growing potatoes sure love the immigrants come harvest time, especially when they were paid under the table. Of course, these dumbasses in NORTHERN MAINE insist on flying confederate flags to honor their "heritage". They are from NORTHERN MAINE, their heritage is: Being harassed and assaulted by the KKK for daring to be catholic, freezing to death in ice storms, being mistaken for Canadians, and murdering the hell out of confederate slavers for the glory of the Union
They're outright racists is what I'm saying. My brother has bitched and moaned about "affirmative action" for decades. The horror that a black person might be somewhere they don't "deserve" is their only concern. It's funny to blame anything on affirmative action when you come from a town with single digit black people, and without affirmative action in the past, you would be just like the rest of the white trash.
hsuduebc2 15 hours ago [-]
I understand you. I have the similar experience from different country. "Everyone steals but at least he is not THEM". The worst part of this all is that I feel how I slowly sliding into pure cynism. I just can't sympathize for some people if their problems are their own decisions over and over. For
example one of the ministers in our government sold fake cancer treatments to sick people. It's just forgotten.
These politicians who do not provide results and are just confidently talking nonsense still get voted. By the people.
People are indeed just tribal unga bunga monkes which learned to walk, talk and do stupid shit. Some more than others.
bende511 20 hours ago [-]
what are you talking about? this statement of yours does not match reality in any way
ikiris 20 hours ago [-]
If by cope you mean ensure it happens by running our economic power into a trade war iceberg.
jjallen 20 hours ago [-]
Is economic dominance the right metric to be looking at?
Yes, the US is the biggest economy. This doesn’t mean its ability to pay liabilities is infinite. Every amount of income has a particular amount of debt and interest that it is able to pay.
Take the largest company. It would not be able to service infinite debt. Apple could not service $5 trillion in debt, just like the US could not service 300 trillion.
I get why some people are concerned about the US’s liabilities and its global police status.
Also stopping giving many other countries billions of dollars a year after might be drastic. But I see why some people may not like this. Individuals can give to charities instead if this is really such a problem for them.
Now cutting research and other things is really dumb. Glad they reversed that quickly. Also needlessly licking fights with our neighbors is also really dumb.
Now only if we can reduce our military spending as well.
gauravphoenix 19 hours ago [-]
>The US probably hasn't been this economically dominant since after WWII.
now look at the deficits.
ceejayoz 19 hours ago [-]
Which are roughly like me having a mortgage that’s the same as my annual salary. Which is quite commonplace.
It’d be a problem if we had to pay it all off tomorrow, but we don’t.
gauravphoenix 31 minutes ago [-]
depends on the mortgage if it is fixed or variable.
it is like borrowing at higher rate than the rate at which are are growing our income.
PeterStuer 21 hours ago [-]
The US is tethering on the brink of hyperinflation due to not just the last 4 but the last 40 years. Interest on the debt is insurmountable.
You can argue whether the chosen approach is right, but no matter what, a drastically different course is needed as 'business as usual' is a sure way to disaster.
I for one hope the US get their act together at home rather than dragging the world into WWIII.
czzr 20 hours ago [-]
Your model for the economy is just utterly wrong. The US is in zero danger of hyperinflation, and probably has the smallest debt issues of any country (certainly of any major country).
Now, the problem is - what to do about how badly informed you and millions of Americans are. That you cheer for the destruction of valuable and painfully built state capacity for completely spurious reasons. It’s almost funny, except for all the innocent people who get hurt along the way.
PeterStuer 20 hours ago [-]
Please substantiate your claims. I am not 'cheering'. I am 100% prepared to be converted.
As I see it that debt counter is compounding fast, and with BRICS gaining steam your abilities to keep shoving it onto the rest of the planet are diminishing.
czzr 19 hours ago [-]
The US has debt denominated in its own currency, a large and growing economy, vast natural and human resources, no prospect of a foreign invasion and debt declining relative to GDP the last few years (this last point is not even that important but just for the record).
I can’t even begin to tell you how far the US is from hyperinflation or any major debt issues - the only real risk the US faces is internal stupidity (I don’t only mean the current situation, idiocies like the ongoing debt ceiling nonsense apply too).
Look, prudence is not a bad thing, and it’s worthwhile to have sensible management. But talk of hyperinflation is either severe mis-calibration of risks, deep misunderstanding of how economies work, or intentional propaganda.
roenxi 6 hours ago [-]
It is worth remembering that the inflation rate is always a policy choice - it is impossible to have hyperinflation without someone running a printing press at high speeds. So when you say "on the brink of hyperinflation" what you are implying is the Fed are considering adopting hyperinflation as a policy. That is unlikely; everyone knows how hyperinflations end and they are unlikely to just randomly adopt a policy known to be disastrous. Even if pressured by something big like the collapse of the US dollar or the US being in a position where no-one will buy their debt at an interest rate they can handle.
If the US has a problem, it'll look like some fairly substantial hit (eg, external forces closing their current account deficit) and a longish period of being economically weakened due to a lack of investment in productive capital. Maybe some riots since the pain will probably not be spread evenly.
It is a catastrophe, but mainly a catastrophe of opportunity costs. We've had a counterfactual running in China over the last 20 years of what could have been happening in the US economy if they hadn't mucked up their overall strategy (particularly energy policy and banking regulation) so badly. Plus there is an impression forming that they are actually a lot weaker militarily than had been assumed to date, I wouldn't put money on Taiwan's long term independence right now. The US doesn't have the funds to handle all the military problems if overseas nations stop picking up the tab.
amrocha 18 hours ago [-]
You’re the one making extraordinary claims, you’re the one that has to substantiate them.
What do you think is more likely, that you’re an economic genius and you can see an impending crisis that 50 years worth of economists couldn’t, and that somehow that crisis is going to happen in the next few years? Or maybe you don’t actually understand how macro economics works and have been manipulated into thinking this way by your inherent dislike of government spending?
cco 9 hours ago [-]
Please please please take a minute to look at this administration's tax plan and their previous one.
They did already and are planning to again add trillions to our deficit. Go look at it, it's laid out very clearly.
There is no good faith here, these actions are a plundering of the state.
templeOSdotcom 15 hours ago [-]
The U.S. national debt has been increasing at a rate of approximately $1 trillion every 100 days, which equates to about 10 days to add $100 billion. When do we hit the panic button?
lostdog 13 hours ago [-]
Trump's first term is responsible for a large portion of the debt. He should take accountability and step down.
starspangled 20 hours ago [-]
> Are such drastic action appropriate given the current state of the US? The US probably hasn't been this economically dominant since after WWII.
Why is USAID needed most in times when the US is very "economically dominant"?
vkou 20 hours ago [-]
Because it takes decades of investment and work to build up international trust and soft power, but as it turns out, it takes all of two weeks for a fool to destroy it.
Look at how that turned out for Bismark's Germany after he was gone. His successors were high on their own supply, and in pursuit of short-term wins, destroyed the careful network of relationships and alliances that he curated.
Beijing is, no doubt, finding this entire folly amusing.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
US dominance was built on hard power (war machine). Ditto for Bismarck. Nothing works without the hard power part.
intended 20 hours ago [-]
So should the world read your comment as a ditching of soft power to use hard power? Is america going to war?
Is that why you made that statement in the context of everything that was built on that hard power being demolished?
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure what you're asking. I think you're trying to make a point, but it is going over my head.
The world should read "less carrot, more stick" from the Trump admin.
OvidNaso 19 hours ago [-]
But what stick? The stick doesn't work when they know you aren't going to use it
iszomer 19 hours ago [-]
Reminds me of that scene in The Irishman: "Just show it to him, don't use it."
ahmeneeroe-v2 18 hours ago [-]
I think Trump will use the stick.
magicalist 18 hours ago [-]
He caved on tariffs to both Mexico and Canada now, so I guess we'll move on to the next concept of a stick.
starspangled 19 hours ago [-]
Soft power seems like mostly wishful thinking at best and a fraud on the taxpayer at worst. I don't think the noble savages feel forever indebted to their kind and wise master for throwing them a few scraps. Countries align with what interests them. Look how quickly countries all over Africa, South America, Middle East, the subcontinent turn to China and Russia. All the vaccines and condoms in the world aren't going to stop people and countries wanting to get the best price for the things they buy and sell.
USAID also has a fairly sketchy record in funding regime change efforts, so countries cooperate with it on a purely transactional basis, "trust" is zero.
kazen44 20 hours ago [-]
if you are talking about the formation of germany,
That was also a lot of soft power and politics to keep socialists from gaining any real political power and a lot of soft power to get all other german states to form into germany.
there where two major wars during that time which mattered for the formation of germany, (the franco prussian war and the austro-prussian war, which was an extent of the politicals about who should form the german state).
starspangled 19 hours ago [-]
> Because it takes decades of investment and work to build up international trust and soft power, but as it turns out, it takes all of two weeks for a fool to destroy it.
I was asking specifically about how US economic dominance is a factor. Why is USAID more important when US economic dominance is high.
davidw 18 hours ago [-]
Helping people out before things get really bad and there are more wars abroad is a good investment. That's why the military has generally been supportive of USAID.
In general, it's also better to have friends in the world rather than going around being loud-mouthed jerks that no one likes.
It's also a tiny amount of the budget.
starspangled 17 hours ago [-]
Yes, though it's unclear USAID is fit for that purpose considering it also funds civil unrest and regime change so some might say is a jerk that no one likes. But questions of its effectiveness and efficiency aside, none of that answers my question about US economic dominance. Why is USAID very important when US economic dominance is high.
I was specifically wondering about that particular part of the comment by the original poster, it just seems quite interesting to me what the connection there is.
rat87 16 hours ago [-]
> considering it also funds civil unrest and regime change
Non crazy conspiratorial source for these huge allegations?
I might be able to find you a Fox News link if that would be more to your liking.
jquery 3 hours ago [-]
Working against apartheid in South Africa would also count as "fomenting unrest" so I don't know how useful that metric is. Even what you linked is basically equivalent to the US projecting soft power and pro-capitalist sentiment (inappropriate, IMO, but probably within agency mission parameters).
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
Is this really a drastic action? As others in this thread have pointed out, these programs are a single-digit percentage of the Federal budget. We could delete these completely and still have a budget that is 90% the same as last year.
intended 20 hours ago [-]
Wow. That’s a refreshing take on the reducing the corruption angle.
If these programs are so small, why aren’t they going after the real grift? It’s too hard? Why the small, more relevant to citizens programs get cut first?
Because its easy to avoid the military spending and the black box that represents.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
My guess is a few things.
First, these are symbolic, it is very hard to concretely argue that these programs are good for Americans, since even proponents of these programs say it's about "soft power". Corollary to this is that cutting something like social security is seen as cutting benefits to Americans (ditto with Defense)
Second, these programs are seen as funding "professional democrats" in a way that social security or defense are not. So this is also about cutting out their opponents support structures.
If these programs are so small, why do you care so much?
magicalist 19 hours ago [-]
> If these programs are so small, why do you care so much?
Because they help starving children?
> First, these are symbolic
Are we talking about how USAID worked against apartheid in South Africa now?
ahmeneeroe-v2 18 hours ago [-]
>starving children
The people who put Trump in office want the US Gov to focus on American children
magicalist 18 hours ago [-]
> The people who put Trump in office want
That's not remotely universally true, but that's also not what you asked about
evan_ 15 hours ago [-]
oh, so what are they doing to that end
LastTrain 16 hours ago [-]
Because doing it all at once is not how debasement works.
KennyBlanken 19 hours ago [-]
Military spending didn't explode the deficit. Bush and Trump tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations did.
Thanks for the link on 18F in the feds. Didn't realize how much they had put up on Github and other areas [1]. analytics.usa.gov [2] is also pretty cool. Apparently its Jekyll, Sass, React and d3 from their Github.
343,025 first time users in the last 30 minutes, with GSA Advantage, USPS Tracking Results, NIST, CEAC Visa Status Check, and Federal Student Aid being some of the biggest sources. Had no idea this was available.
This is nuts, 18F was one of the few groups in the federal government that is/was good at making software! (login.gov is a good example of craft you don't generally see in commercial enterprise software, let alone government software)
According to that tweet they were apparently “far left” because they also worked on Direct File, which sought to cut out the middleman (TurboTax et al.) and let Americans file taxes directly. Regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum, unless you're in bed with Intuit, this seems pretty hard to argue against!
"Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent has shut down a wide variety of operations inside the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau in his new role as acting director."
Nothing of this makes sense in that all these actions don't seem to make life easier or better for citizens in particular or the world in general.
Sharlin 19 hours ago [-]
Everything about it makes perfect sense because pesky things like consumer protection and occupational safety cut into the profits of the owning class.
mlinhares 15 hours ago [-]
Looks like we'll have leaded gas back in pumps pretty soon.
Symbiote 10 hours ago [-]
The target to replace lead water pipes was abandoned by Trump yesterday.
JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago [-]
> target to replace lead water pipes was abandoned by Trump yesterday
Source?
I'm only finding a Guardian article about Congressional Republicans planning a CRA action [1].
Slippery slope fallacy. And bad politics. Reflexively defending State department ops to destabilize foreign countries through a putative foreign aid organization by hand having about leaded gas (in the context of a guy who restarted the EV industry) is how you get to this point in history.
test6554 17 hours ago [-]
I guess I'll just have to become a shareholder
callc 15 hours ago [-]
Too late the 0.1% took all the cookies and didn’t learn how to share as children
exe34 7 hours ago [-]
I'm just going to buy cake at this point.
altacc 10 hours ago [-]
A significant part of the animosity towards the EU and Trump's threat of tariffs is its consumer protection and preventing US companies, especially US tech companies, from doing whatever the hell they want.
A major difference between the US and EU is what the TikTok nonsense proved: the US is happy for a US company, aligned to Trump's authority, to track, influence and commodify its users at will; whereas the EU doesn't want any company to have that power regardless of location.
scotty79 7 hours ago [-]
Do you think Trump understands how tarifs work exactly? Or is it just something he learned other countries are afraid of but he has no idea that American importers and their customers are gonna pay them (and he shares this misunderstanding with more than half of the population)?
This article doesn't indicate that he knows what tariff mechanistically does. Only that it will take inflict some amount of suffering on American citizens and possibly force manufacturing back into America.
altacc 3 hours ago [-]
He knows how they work: he threatens them and his supporters cheer, he implements them and people negotiate. There are other, some would say better, ways to get the same effects but tariffs are Trump's go to. In the metaphor "when you have a hammer everything is a nail" maybe Trump is the hammer and tariffs the nail?
scotty79 13 minutes ago [-]
I'd say tariffs are a hammer, every international issue looks like a nail and Trump is the simpleton that keeps swinging.
hnbad 9 hours ago [-]
While this is true in principle, it's worth adding the caveat that EU countries have also been pushing for backdoors to encrypted communications in order to expand law enforcement access. Of course while this contradicts the stance on privacy the EU put forward with the GDPR (which sneakily redefined the right to privacy and control of your personal data as an indelible human right btw).
But in case anyone thinks this is a dunk on the EU: this is still not as invasive as the US law enforcement's powers of warrantless surveillance which have repeatedly blown up the EU-US frameworks for data sharing (Privacy Shield and its other iterations, which Mr Schrems seems to have personally made a sport of shooting down faster than they get implemented). It's also not entirely contradictory as the focus here is on protecting the rights of people against corporations while still providing means for the state to violate those rights when necessary (similarly to how the state can violate your right to free movement through incarceration or your right to bodily autonomy by shooting you, neither of which seem to upset the people who'd think this one is a gotcha).
Considering the EU's main function is being a transnational economic region (if you ignore all the fluff about shared values and history and instead follow the definition of "a system's function is what it does"), it's absolutely true that the EU is remarkably restrictive on what corporations can do compared to the US - even before Trump.
EDIT: The two sibling comments prove my point: while EU member states have been pushing for legislation like providing backdoors to encrypted communication, this is neither unique to the EU nor a contradiction and the US already has far wider reaching measures in place.
Consider for example the Switzerland-based CIA and BND (Germany) shell company that distributed backdoored encryption to hostile nations which Germany backed out of when the CIA defended distributing the same technology to friendlies without informing them or their intelligence agencies. Or literally any of the Snowden leaks, which described not only mass surveillance of US citizens but also espionage against US allies (infamously including wiretapping then-chancellor Angela Merkel's mobile phone) to a degree none of the EU member states have ever done anything comparable to - and which those mostly didn't act on because of the importance of maintaining good terms with the US. Or the post-9/11 legislation which not only allowed warrantless surveillance with gag orders (which is why "canaries" became popular in cryptography communities) but even literally killing or abducting and indefinitely incarcerating US citizens without a trial - not to mention torture.
You can criticize the EU for state overreach. You can't do so by using the US for grounds of moral superiority - not even moral equivalence. You can argue about different attitudes to free speech, gun ownership or the right to self-defense (e.g. castle doctrine), sure. All of these are valid grounds for debate. But the US government can (according to its own jurisdiction) legally do so many more things to both its own citizens and non-citizens both within and outside its borders that trying to use it for a libertarian "win" against the EU seems farcical at best.
oblio 7 hours ago [-]
And another factor is that those surveillance laws haven't passed, despite some member states pushing for them since at least 5 years ago.
It's an ongoing war.
ban-evader 9 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
prmoustache 9 hours ago [-]
The error is viewing the EU has a single entity with only one viewpoint on any subject.
Europol + most major euro police forces + a number of european deputees want to have access to backdoors to spy on citizens, other european deputees do not. The battle is here.
_blk 9 hours ago [-]
...Seems more like the EU reserves that power to itself, which I'd argue is even worse
ben_w 9 hours ago [-]
Every national government tracks people, including the USA, so Americans get the worst of both worlds.
tcptomato 8 hours ago [-]
Why would it be worse?
munificent 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
pbhjpbhj 10 hours ago [-]
>The goal of Trump, Musk and co. is to make life better for the rich.
I mean that feels right. But, they have more money than they can spend. They can make their lives better by stopping being so greedy... it's not about better.
It's greed. It's the number on their total net worth, or some other bullshit number.
It's exactly like Musk paying others to play games to get him the best apparent player character. He pays others to earn money to make him look, to himself, like the best fascist-capitalist oligarch, or whatever he's going for.
In reality, their lust for boosting some vanity metric is most closely aligned with "make life worse for the poor". Because whilst they do pay some top employees well, the whole pyramid sits on the exploitation of many millions more poor people who, through their greed, the capitalists push down further into the bloody, stinking, fetid soup below.
Oh, and the capitalists rape the planet too... just to make sure no lining thing escapes the accretion zone of their self-destructive insecurity.
ineedaj0b 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
spencerflem 17 hours ago [-]
Dude, the media is owned by billionaires, and bent over backwards to excuse a Nazi salute.
They're on the same side
blindriver 13 hours ago [-]
CFPB was responsible for trying to fine creative ways to control other companies, and by debanking others. This was Elizabeth Warren’s doing and a complete farce. As Zuckerberg said, Meta was brought in front of the CFPB by Warren and he was confused because Meta isn’t a bank.
hypothesis 13 hours ago [-]
Was it before or after he tried to pull off that Libra thing?
pavlov 9 hours ago [-]
I worked at Facebook when the Libra thing happened, and it was obviously meant to be a global bank that evades banking regulations by sprinkling crypto magic.
When it launched, employees were told that we'd soon be able to receive a portion of our salaries in Libra. Every practical feature of the system was effectively a Facebook bank account where the unit of currency was tied to a basket of major currencies. The rest was smoke and mirrors.
So yeah, Zuck feigning surprise about being dragged in front of CFPB was just an act (like most of what he does in public).
oblio 7 hours ago [-]
> When it launched, employees were told that we'd soon be able to receive a portion of our salaries in Libra.
> CFPB Warns that Digital Marketing Providers Must Comply with Federal Consumer Finance Protections
> Tech firms that use behavioral targeting of individual consumers regarding financial products are liable for violations
Oh, ok.
unethical_ban 11 hours ago [-]
I'll have to look into that. But giving these people any good faith is quite charitable to say the least.
justin66 20 hours ago [-]
> This is nuts, 18F was one of the few groups in the federal government that is/was good at making software!
Hopefully it's obvious at this point: Musk and friends not there to do anything but enrich themselves, and destroy.
scarab92 14 hours ago [-]
Musk usually elevates technical and capable people, and gives them more power, not less.
I suspect 18F would have been adopted by USDS, if it had been less overtly partisan in its hiring practices.
georgeburdell 14 hours ago [-]
Care to provide an example? I was casually looking at applying, but I am on the conservative side as easily searchable on Google by voter registrations
ljm 8 hours ago [-]
The only person Musk ‘elevates’ is himself.
People with that kind of wealth have transcended humanity. Not towards greatness but towards total indifference.
amitrip 9 hours ago [-]
[dead]
ianburrell 20 hours ago [-]
My brother works for 18F.
18F might also be "far-left" cause it was created by Obama folks. I also wonder if it is also bad in his mind cause conflicts with taken over Digital Service.
Trasmatta 20 hours ago [-]
>far-left
>Obama folks
Obama was not in any way "far left"
gadders 9 hours ago [-]
Obama would be "far right" by current Democrat standards. He was against gay marriage in 2008, for example.
matthewmacleod 7 hours ago [-]
Of course, it goes without saying that opposing same-sex marriage doesn't make one "far right". I mean, I know you knew that and are just ragebaiting – but I wanted it to be explicitly clear for others.
gadders 7 hours ago [-]
I'm not rage-baiting. I'm saying it's a reasonable point that people can disagree on, but if any Republican candidate had had it as a policy position in the last election they would have been labelled as "Far Right".
matthewmacleod 5 hours ago [-]
Yes, you’re rage-baiting; a republican candidate would have been labeled that way because of the aggregate of their positions, not this one.
Though of course, that is by modern standards quite a conservative right position to take. (And incidentally not one I’d consider reasonable to take; though I’m obviously biased by being directly affected)
gadders 5 hours ago [-]
No, I don't think it takes more than one position to get you labelled "far right" these days. The Free Speech Union, which is UK pressure group in favour of free speech was recently labelled "far right" by Wikipedia for promoting free speech.
matthewmacleod 4 hours ago [-]
This is what I mean by rage-baiting :)
gadders 3 hours ago [-]
Disagreeing with you is rage-baiting?
trealira 7 hours ago [-]
And Kamala Harris was labeled far-left for campaigning on a Trump-lite platform on immigration and the economy that appealed to no one.
dralley 2 hours ago [-]
>And Kamala Harris was labeled far-left for campaigning on a Trump-lite platform on immigration and the economy that appealed to no one.
I am begging people on the left to stop slandering "we will enforce the law" as a right-wing position. It is not, shouldn't be, and the right doesn't deserve to get credit for it.
Kamala wasn't "Trump-lite" any more than AOC is "Stalin-lite". The differences between the two are fucking categorical.
gadders 5 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure if "free sex changes for illegal immigrants" counts as "Trump-lite"
tstrimple 3 hours ago [-]
Your mind was really warped by conservative propaganda wasn’t it? Amazing how effective it is on a certain type of person. Reality just doesn’t matter at all to you does it?
dralley 2 hours ago [-]
Look, I voted for Kamala and donated >$100 to her campaign. And I agree that it was absolutely not in any way the focus of her campaign.
But it's not lying to point out that she was for that in 2019. The fact that the video was made into a campaign ad doesn't make it false.
gadders 2 hours ago [-]
It's not propaganda if it's true.
ModernMech 2 hours ago [-]
"free sex changes for illegal immigrants" is a campaign slogan. That you are engaging with this topic at a slogan-level means you are not here to really here for curious inquiry. You sound like a election ad.
trealira 7 hours ago [-]
Funny, because I remember he was a far-left muslim communist from Africa back then by Republican standards.
qingcharles 14 hours ago [-]
Especially on the international stage. American "far-left" is totally different to say, European "far-left."
kragen 13 hours ago [-]
Obama wasn't US far left either though. More center right.
rob74 8 hours ago [-]
Yes, what's center right in the US is "far left" to the far right currently in power.
peepeepoopoo105 11 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
kragen 10 hours ago [-]
Obama wasn't a member of the Weather Underground. He was 16 when it was dissolved and had never lived on the same continent where it operated.
Separately, your unprovoked personal attack on me is contrary to site policy.
ianburrell 20 hours ago [-]
I added air quotes to make irony obvious.
zekrioca 9 hours ago [-]
People these days use /s for that, not quotes..
emptyfile 8 hours ago [-]
You should understand what putting a word in quotes means, regardless of internet memes.
stuaxo 8 hours ago [-]
Obama was further to the right than the conservatives in the UK at the time.
ban-evader 9 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
tempfile 9 hours ago [-]
I think you made this up. Do you have any evidence at all? What do you even consider a "shift to the far left"?
throwawayqqq11 8 hours ago [-]
Thats the problem. "Far-left" is just a label thrown around by ideological people without hard arguments.
Core leftism is about wealth distribution and unbounded solidarity. Being only pro-LGBTQ imo does not make you a leftist and yet, look around in this thread, what is brought up to proove left leaning tendencies.
The labeling/propaganda unfortunately worked and we devolve into tribal identity politics. Thats why some people think we just passed a far-left decade.
Ma8ee 7 hours ago [-]
”Far left” is the new ”communism”. ”The civil rights movement is communism.” ”Gay marriage is far left.” The labels don’t mean anything else than ”something we don’t like and you should be scared of”.
scarab92 14 hours ago [-]
Agree, but when you staff an entire agency with his supporters, the echo chamber effect can result in it becoming a hive of far-left types.
The same would apply to the right too, except that the right tends to shut down agencies, not create them.
chad_c 14 hours ago [-]
DHS is a counterexample here. It’s huge.
icameron 8 hours ago [-]
The overreaction is absolutely crazy. In no way are they leftist. They are about as woke as any typical modern progressive company. A lot of my colleagues in both public and private sectors include their pronouns in their signatures. They choose to use inclusive language and policies.
There is a hit piece article not worth linking that calls out some of the devs who worked there. The comment section of that page is very hateful. As an American it’s shameful to see that level of hate for anything to do with policies of inclusiveness.
The company looks like they hire regular people of all types. A few of the adults are trans or identify as queer and they are acknowledged as equal coworkers. Fairly representative of the tech industry I’d say. What is so bad about that? They seem to write some excellent code and have a good company culture akin to a lot of SV tech companies.
IncreasePosts 19 hours ago [-]
Ironically, one of the founders of DOGE(nee USDS), Mikey Dickerson, was caught colluding with billionaire Reid Hoffman to spread misinformation ahead of a 2017 election in Alabama in favor of Democrats.
"caught colluding" implies they were doing something illegal
IncreasePosts 3 hours ago [-]
Not illegal, just nefarious. Which is why they got real embarrassed when what they were doing was revealed and stopped it.
jahsome 13 hours ago [-]
No, it doesn't.
stuaxo 8 hours ago [-]
The whole sentence does though.
vizzier 12 hours ago [-]
collusion. noun. col· lu· sion kə-ˈlü-zhən. : secret agreement or cooperation for an illegal or dishonest purpose
tiagobraw 11 hours ago [-]
Something can be dishonest without being illegal.
0xcde4c3db 18 hours ago [-]
Being in bed with tax preparation companies is probably the main thing, but I also vaguely recall a statement by someone years ago (perhaps Grover Norquist or Dick Armey) that filing tax returns should be kept annoying simply for the sake of keeping people angry about taxes in general.
robocat 8 hours ago [-]
> filing tax returns should be kept annoying
That's just plain stupid. Taxes are already annoying enough.
In New Zealand the government makes it really really simple to pay your taxes (automated tax returns for the majority). You can call our tax department on the phone and they answer and they are helpful and they don't seem to screw you. The idea is to make it simple for people and businesses to pay their taxes so that they pay. The IRD is run like a smart business.
saagarjha 8 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately a lot of things are just plain stupid.
pbhjpbhj 9 hours ago [-]
Because paying to build society and help those around you to a better life through shared resources is something you should be angry about?
It's not taxes that are the problem per se it's fuckwits like Boris Johnson's cronies that think taxes are theirs to garnish and use any chance, even a global pandemic, to steal every dime they can lay their hands on.
coldtea 9 hours ago [-]
>Because paying to build society and help those around you to a better life through shared resources is something you should be angry about?
No, but paying an exorbitant amount, but seeing few things being improved around you, but endless wars funded and cronies getting richer, and useless bureucracy enlarged and making your life or business more difficult, is.
DangitBobby 13 hours ago [-]
That works until people learn the correct targets to direct their anger.
__MatrixMan__ 16 hours ago [-]
Replacing the government with unaccountable middlemen is sort of their goal, isn't it? Think of the efficiency we could gain once we do away with all of that accountability nonsense...
jf 21 hours ago [-]
login.gov is amazing software. Highly tested. Expertly implemented. It might be the most tested IdP available today.
jeffrallen 21 hours ago [-]
Then why did it send me to id.me to send my photo ID to some low cost outsourcer?
ceejayoz 21 hours ago [-]
Because someone lobbied their bosses.
jf 20 hours ago [-]
This is exactly right. The capability to do identity proofing via the USPS is in the code and available on GitHub for you to browse.
emchammer 20 hours ago [-]
I would rather show up at the local post office in order to verify my identity. Such a matter common in another country where I have lived.
eadler 20 hours ago [-]
This is starting to happen. I had to do this for NIH recently.
Or it would be happening absent the recent chaos.
threeseed 18 hours ago [-]
I can't imagine many people agreeing with you here.
You need to be (a) able to walk and drive, (b) in driving distance to a post office and (c) able to work around the post office's opening hours and (d) willing to waste the time to drive/line up etc.
Or you can spend less than a minute to upload a photo of your passport.
ceejayoz 17 hours ago [-]
I think the objection is more that ID.me should be ID.gov.
amluto 7 hours ago [-]
Which is great until someone impersonates you by spoofing a photo of you that satisfies “liveness” detection. It’s a lot harder to AI up an animated image in person at a post office.
threeseed 18 hours ago [-]
id.me is valued at $1.8bn and has more than 130m users and has "partnerships with 15 federal agencies, 40 agencies in 30 states and over 600 retailers".
Bit of a stretch to call them a low cost outsourcer. They seem pretty legitimate.
toomuchtodo 16 hours ago [-]
They are a private business in search of a problem that is unnecessary for federal and state agencies to rely on for idp and identity proofing services.
threeseed 16 hours ago [-]
Pretty hilarious to think that a $1.8bn business is "searching for a problem".
And given the frosty working relationship between federal and state agencies I am sympathetic to the idea that a private company would be able to deliver a better solution.
gorgoiler 14 hours ago [-]
There’s a bigger story to tell than just a number.
Is that $1.8B of revenue? Of profit? $1.8B of total funding in the last six months? In the last ten years?
Here’s $100M of funding for a 6% stake, four years ago:
Last year: a liquidity event for early investors and employees, none of which helps the ongoing business but instead lets the founders and C-suite buy a private island / holiday home / mobile home / home:
The only rung deeper into the hype pit would be valuing them as a unicorn based on a too-big-to-fail government bailout.
offtotheraces 10 hours ago [-]
Loans get issued based on profit generation (or asset value), so no, it is not “to keep them afloat”. You can’t get a loan if your company is not doing well or too risky (that’s why startups raise equity - because they are still too risky for someone to lend them money).
A loan is a form of debt, which is one of the two main forms of capital - the other main one being equity. Debt is less expensive than equity, so companies prefer to issue to raise capital via debt than equity.
throwawayqqq11 8 hours ago [-]
Its not just profit that is considered for a loan. Anything related to states is more stable and thus less risky. Or how would you evaluate state bonds by profit only? Elon knows what i am talking about.
toomuchtodo 16 hours ago [-]
Login.gov is the default idp for the Social Security Administration, supports 200+ federal agencies for identity, and IRS was in the works to onboard Login.gov before this new admin fuckery occurred. They handle over 10 million monthly active users and 40 million monthly sign-ins across nearly 50 agencies and states. Will it still happen? Who knows. id.me will likely IPO based off the ~$130-$150M ARR they have, some folks will get wealthy, and it'll still end up the equivalent of confirming your discount eligibility at Home Depot for veterans.
m2024 12 hours ago [-]
[dead]
zeckalpha 14 hours ago [-]
Who controls the .me tld?
Montenegro.
chinathrow 20 hours ago [-]
At this point, Elon is doing only damage while he thinks he cleans up. Someone will have to cleanup after the cleanup aka damage doen though, and it won't be pretty.
intended 11 hours ago [-]
Don’t do clean up.
The biggest mistake the dems can make is to come in and do clean up. This would be paying the bills of the abusive member in a relationship.
ArnoVW 10 hours ago [-]
People depend on the state. Someone has to be the adult in the room. If your marriage fails what do you do with the kids? You abandon them because you don’t want to clean up?
throwaheyy 8 hours ago [-]
Dems were already the adult in the room, US voters decided they don’t want one.
intended 7 hours ago [-]
Course not. Mine is a horrid take.
It’s a statement on the fact that the children are being held hostage, and that this is how the pattern will be made to continue.
You have to decide whether you are ok with this pattern continuing. If it’s possible to do it without harming the children, then that is what must be done.
If it’s better to let this pattern continue, then thats also an ok choice. But at least the costs must be articulated and accepted. People can know what role they are playing in this relationship; the tradeoffs they found unacceptable.
tstrimple 3 hours ago [-]
This is all democrats have done my entire politically aware life. It’s like clockwork. Republicans majorly screw things up. Democrats get elected in a wave and start doing the hard work of cleaning up the mess and making tiny steps of progress and then the next election comes around and Republicans win on some culture war nonsense that they created themselves and they get fuck up the system once again. Every single time. Democrats have no opportunity or willingness to enact the agenda of the people who vote for them. They are in perpetual cleanup and maintain the status quo cycle.
The Democratic Party is the conservative one.
scotty79 7 hours ago [-]
Yeah, Dems should skip the next election, maybe a few and let the people cook themselves.
It still might happen that there won't be any further elections in which anyone but trumpists can actually win.
maeil 14 hours ago [-]
>while he thinks he cleans up
He doesn't.
watwut 9 hours ago [-]
If you goal is to make government small, ineffective at consumer protection and such, this is absolutely the first group to target.
19 hours ago [-]
Cornbilly 21 hours ago [-]
Given his tech record, he probably dragged a file named 18F to the Recycle Bin.
This is the same guy that nearly tanked PayPal because he was obsessed with rewriting their entire system for Windows.
hinkley 20 hours ago [-]
I had a coworker who turned beet red when I put Musk and PayPal in the same sentence. You know that feeling when your parents didn’t yell and you wished they would? I was too afraid to ask for the full story.
His PR makes him sound like a founder but he was not.
pinkmuffinere 18 hours ago [-]
“X.com was … founded by Ed Ho, Harris Fricker, Elon Musk, and Christopher Payne … It merged with competitor Confinity in 2000 and the merged company changed its name to PayPal in 2001.”[1]
I’m sure individual usage will vary, but I would call him a cofounder.
Confinity is the company that developed the PayPal website that survived that merger. Elon Musk was not on the Confinity side, he was trying to pivot his x.com bank into a PayPal clone and buy users ($30 per signup) faster than them until they merged to avoid running each other out of cash. The two startups were operating out of the same building at the time. After the merger, Musk was named CEO but ousted from the company just 5 months later, in part for being absent much of the time (including at the time of his firing), and in part because the PayPal engineers had circulated a petition to the board asking them to remove him. The board agreed.
consp 9 hours ago [-]
Co-founder is just a marketing name and has no meaning in reality, actions do. Looking at this he provided in money which was likely to ruin his business by overspending it and greater minds prevailed in the end (I'm not saying paypal is a good thing or not). Why they made him CEO I cannot fathem but it has probably something to do with the bullying behaviour he is known for.
I've been named co-founder once but as soon as its usefulness ran out it got removed from the website (nothing else changed).
Edit; needed to be response to parent, sorry.
daemin 9 hours ago [-]
Wasn't he also in the USA illegally because he was in violation of his student visa?
jaimex2 9 hours ago [-]
yeah yeah, and something about a slave labour diamond mine which is just as relevant to Musk having a team capable of cleaning up.
pinkmuffinere 7 hours ago [-]
Wow, I can’t believe this is so controversial. When companies A and B merge, what would you describe the A-founders as, in relation to the resulting company?
buffington 17 hours ago [-]
> This article is about the defunct online bank.
Assuming you meant X.com (formerly known as Twitter) - in no universe is there a Twitter cofounded by Musk.
dboreham 15 hours ago [-]
No, parent presumably meant the original x.com
jacobjjacob 21 hours ago [-]
Looking at the quoted post, what do they have against Direct File? It is really hard to keep track of their positions which I believe is intentional.
kelnos 21 hours ago [-]
Direct File competes with Intuit and other tax prep companies. Of course they're against it; DF threatens corporate profits.
_factor 20 hours ago [-]
Isn’t it wonderful when they make rules stating you must pay taxes, then they make it so convoluted and obscure that you’re forced to spend extra money to file them?
It seems almost like corruption.
seangrogg 19 hours ago [-]
DirectFile makes it such that anyone with a simple tax situation (some W-2s, some dependents, etc) can easily file their federal taxes online. Free. Straight to the IRS. My only gripe with DirectFile is that it doesn't yet cover more complex cases (but let's not have perfect be the enemy of good; it's probably good enough for 75% of citizens) and you still have to find a way to do state filings based on your state.
timidiceball 9 hours ago [-]
Well by next year it won't be available for anyone so no one will be dissatisfied with what it can and can't do!
crooked-v 15 hours ago [-]
It's an intentional position by the Republicans to condition Americans into reflexively supporting tax cuts. https://archive.ph/mQ0cu
insane_dreamer 18 hours ago [-]
True, except for the “almost”
soulofmischief 11 hours ago [-]
This fuckery will continue unabated for the rest of our lives until we collectively stop paying income taxes with the demand that a Constitutional amendment is put in place to force the government to be honest and helpful both around the procurement (just sending a dang bill) and government spending (expressly forbidding genocides, foreign coups, certain bailouts, etc) with real teeth in it.
Of course, right now it seems even the existing amendments are not safe. Our government is a non-functioning, dishonest imperial oligarchy, and we just keep paying our tithing out of fear, telling ourselves it's all going to schools and highways.
bjoli 9 hours ago [-]
When did the political system stop being about making life better for the average person?
In Sweden we have gotten a paper from the tax office saying "we believe your taxes should be like this" and then you can change parts you disagree with (and risk punishment if you are wrong).
Direct file seems great.
0xEF 8 hours ago [-]
> When did the political system stop being about making life better for the average person?
In the US, when we elected mediocre actor Ronald Reagan, I think. His trickle-down economics nonsense turned out to be a just and early example of catering to the rich in broad daylight instead of behind closed doors. And the people, for the most part, bought it, so now we have legal scams like 401ks that the average citizen thinks are there to help them.
The point has always been to seize control of the money while removing all accountability and they are finally succeeding because liberals handed them the election over Gaza, which is no longer in even in our news cycle.
It all makes my stomach turn, to be honest.
Hikikomori 7 hours ago [-]
I like the idea that trump is your punishment for supporting a genocide, enjoy him and his goons dismantling the federal state.
daemin 9 hours ago [-]
When there's interests which are making $100's to $1000's from many millions of people in the USA and want to keep it going.
filleokus 8 hours ago [-]
(Really) not saying it's a good idea, but if Swedes were required to fill in the paperwork, or even better/worse actually transfer the taxes (maybe including payroll), we would probably be more upset with how our taxpayer money is spent.
If you are politically motivated to minimize the tax burden, it makes sense to be skeptical of direct filing (even if you are not bribed by Intuit).
concordDance 19 hours ago [-]
Unrelated corporations are not natural allies. In fact they often compete.
acdha 16 hours ago [-]
This is true, but it’s much harder to compete against a free government service and that’s not the only option. For example, how much does Intuit’s advertising budget on X have to go up for it to be worth the effort of a few hours? (Repeat for xAI contracts or fleet Tesla purchases)
I don’t know if there is any quid pro quo but that’s why we have ethics laws because otherwise you have to constantly ask whether something is good for the country or just the guy making the decision.
pbhjpbhj 6 hours ago [-]
Well the person making the decision can just decide to do what they think will make them most money on a stock trade too, it's like they built corruption into the system. So, they could sort Intuit/Quicken then announce gov will provide free software... make a killing on the short, then say 'only kidding'!
heavyset_go 12 hours ago [-]
Competitors can have mutual interests.
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
They oppose anything that reduces private companies revenue. Direct file reduces Intuits TurboTax revenue.
hackyhacky 14 hours ago [-]
> It is really hard to keep track of their positions which I believe is intentional.
The reasons are unimportant. The important thing is that you trust Uncle Don and Uncle Elon, our grand leaders, who always have your best interests at heart.
> In December, however, Kelly and 28 House Republican colleagues wrote to President-elect Donald Trump to ask him to end the program: “We write to urge you to take immediate action, including but not limited to a day-one executive order, to end the Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS) unauthorized and wasteful Direct File pilot program. The program’s creation and ongoing expansion pose a threat to taxpayers’ freedom from government overreach, and its rollout and structural flaws have already come at a steep price.”
rounce 18 hours ago [-]
All the dramatic language they use to dress up their claims is completely ridiculous.
shigawire 16 hours ago [-]
The argument (if you take it in the most charitable light) is that reducing barriers to paying taxes will make people less averse to paying taxes. So they fight any effort to bring sanity to the tax code or tax payment process.
So even taken charitably I think they are wrong. But I do believe it is simply just corrupt and malicious.
hnbad 2 hours ago [-]
You'd think the threat of having your bank accounts frozen and armed law enforcement officers showing up at your door were the most significant factors in making people "less averse" to paying taxes. I doubt reducing the barriers to filing your taxes correctly makes anyone happier about having to pay taxes either.
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
You should see the crazy shit they say about the IRS hiring 80,000 more employees that they desperately need.
ahartmetz 9 hours ago [-]
What the actual fuck.
Simplifying government paperwork = government overreach. Got it.
It's referred to as Elizabeth Warren's Direct File project.
pityJuke 20 hours ago [-]
He got rid of 18F, a group within the Govt to improve usage of tech (and hopefully therefore efficiency), because of a tweet.
A tweet about IRS Direct File, a group that replicates the basic automatic taxation program of other advanced economies?
Over a fear that the Government would take over deciding what taxes people pay, despite a fact that such a program doesn’t necessarily block you from manually filing your own taxes (don’t know if the American implementation has that, but the UK one certainly allows you to override PAYE).
Yes HN commenters, this is the genius behind Government reform.
EDIT: Jesus Christ someone is going to convince him FedNow is a conspiracy and kill another basic system other countries have easily managed.
tsunamifury 20 hours ago [-]
He clearly wants to replace the US government technology platforms with X/XPay/etc
kelseyfrog 14 hours ago [-]
Yes - This is an underrated point.
The circle of Elon, Thiel, Andersson, etc conceptually orbit Balaji. Balaji, The Network State author, explicitly advocates for a techno-libertarian exit because they perceive the US and especially "team blue" as getting in the way and slowing down their vision.
coldtrait 8 hours ago [-]
I still don't understand what Balaji wants to achieve with his crypto oriented nonsense. Could not make any sense of it.
Hikikomori 7 hours ago [-]
His ideas builds on Curtis Jarvis work, dark enlightenment. He is a close associate of Peter Thiel and JD Vance. Essentially they want to destroy the federal government, buy up assets and land, start their own micro countries where they can be King CEOs. Sounds like a joke but its not.
kelseyfrog 21 minutes ago [-]
It's important to point out, and this not an understatement, that they believe that democracy is a failed project. Democracy in their eyes is either a failed experiment or obsolete.
They share a belief that "change from within"[democracy] is impossible and that "exiting" is the only other option. This extends to governance models where people are encouraged to vote for their governance by packing up and moving (digitally and/or physically) rather than attempting change from within.
bamboozled 13 hours ago [-]
He said wants X to be an “everything” app like WeChat a few years back. Nice an authoritarian.
The so-called Department of Government Efficiency has deleted a group that was devoted solely to making the government more efficient. Makes perfect sense, in Trumpistan logic.
baobabKoodaa 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
hondo77 19 hours ago [-]
By your logic, having one small group would be most efficient. Which makes perfect sense, given the tiny size of the US government, in Trumpistan logic.
baobabKoodaa 6 hours ago [-]
I didn't make any claims about what is the most efficient number of groups working towards efficiency.
I also didn't make any claims which groups should exist, solely based on the name of the group.
You're the one who made an argument along those lines. Not me. As if, a group named for efficiency couldn't possibly be inefficient. Or, that 2 groups working for efficiency would somehow be automatically better than 1 group.
__loam 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
mychael 14 hours ago [-]
If 18F was so great then why did nothing change and the needle not move significantly?
m463 21 hours ago [-]
Posts here talk about the legality of this, that what they are doing is not allowed, or that they're doing something naively without understanding.
But what is the goal? Maybe what goal to they think they're pursuing? This is hacker news, so I'm asking for an answer without political rhetoric.
tyre 21 hours ago [-]
The goal is to dismantle as much of the government as possible. Where possible, they can replace the existing people with their own people, then steer government contracts to themselves.
adastra22 7 hours ago [-]
I know some of the people involved, and named in this article. So do many other people on HN. I pitched my startup to one of these zoomers just a few months ago. I can tell you that whatever this is, it isn't that kind of cronyism corruption. We can do better than such accusations, and that's what the person you are replying to is asking for.
riskable 21 hours ago [-]
The way they're going there might not be a government much longer. I really do believe they're that stupid.
The entire stock market is premised on the stability of the US government. Without it all their wealth would disappear overnight. All the luxuries they love would cease being produced. They wouldn't be able to fly their private jets anywhere.
In the past the rich could stockpile easily-tradable goods like gold in order to maintain a luxurious life even if their government collapsed. When it comes to billionaires that's not possible. The logistics of keeping and moving that much physical currency/gold/etc don't work out in their favor.
If they keep this up they're going to lose almost all of their wealth as the world destabilizes. They're also setting themselves and their families up to be assassination targets for the rest of their lives (far, far beyond what they are already). There's people everywhere that will be severely impacted by their actions. There will be nowhere for them to go because the US really is the pillar of the world's economies.
disqard 20 hours ago [-]
They can operate this demolition op from the safety of their bunkers in NZ.
All they need is a way to send messages to their "useful idiot" new college grad minions.
True, instigating a global collapse might eventually get to them, but AFAICT, they just want to personally profit from US dysfunction. Plus, it seems like the rest of the world will simply bypass the US and say "you're not dependable any more, so we're just gonna pretend you don't exist". Ostracism (of the US) seems more likely than the entire world destabilizing.
bloopernova 18 hours ago [-]
It'll be just like the 1930s with a deeply isolationist USA.
History sure does have an uncanny way of rhyming if not actually repeating.
Something that greatly galls me is that the livelihood of tens of millions of families depend on the whims of people who think only in terms of profit. Government is not supposed to make a damned profit! The government's primary role should be to care for everyone, from entrepreneurs to people with disabilities. I'm not saying "handouts for all", I'm saying that the government needs to provide stability, a level foundation for all to build upon.
It's like Venkman in Ghostbusters, in the ballroom: he yanks away the tablecloth sending everything flying except "the flowers are still standing!". The rich are the flowers, secure on their own foundation, calm with the knowledge that the guy pulling the tablecloth can't affect them. In other words, the new administration should be carefully enacting new policies not causing chaos by doing everything too quickly.
Unless their goal is to destroy the USA, in which case US citizens will need to decide what country they want to live in and whether republicans are capable of delivering that.
disqard 17 hours ago [-]
Thank you for that mental image of the flowers still standing :D
> Unless their goal is to destroy the USA
I have indeed heard this, even in his first term -- that people were so fed up of politics-as-usual, that they decided to "send a wrecking ball into the White House".
After having seen the damage that wrecking ball did the first time around... to send it back must mean that these folks really want to demolish the very ground they're standing on.
bloopernova 16 hours ago [-]
My other pet metaphor is that we're all standing on top of wobbling Jenga tower and the republicans want to knock out the blocks beneath us.
And thank you :)
nick3443 14 hours ago [-]
The US is not a wobbling Jenga tower, that's what the news media wants you to believe. They'll keep pushing that story to peddle fear and outrage until they make it true.
dkdbejwi383 9 hours ago [-]
> Government is not supposed to make a damned profit! The government's primary role should be to care for everyone, from entrepreneurs to people with disabilities. I'm not saying "handouts for all", I'm saying that the government needs to provide stability, a level foundation for all to build upon.
My understanding from both reading a lot online and conversations with Americans in person is that a significant number of them would consider the above statement to be “socialism” which is something they’ve been taught to hate, no matter what.
I can’t say I understand it. To me, it’s the most basic raison d’etre for government. I’m not sure what the anti-socialism types in the USA think that the government’s purpose is
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
Slightly shaky start to the market today but it largely recovered and is just as high as it was 10 days ago. Seems the markets are divided between worried and cautiously optimistic.
ceejayoz 20 hours ago [-]
The markets only care about what'll make them money. The markets responded to the tarrifs, then the same-day (temporary) rollback of them.
The markets have been disconnected from reality for a long time, at least a decade.
14 hours ago [-]
Grollicus 19 hours ago [-]
Why would they do anything else? Last Trump Presidency caused incredible inflation that for a huge part went into the stock market, because where else can it go?
nick3443 14 hours ago [-]
This is pretty much my investment thesis for the foreseeable future.
niceice 17 hours ago [-]
They aren't redirecting contracts. They are shutting them off.
The goal is to go after waste, fraud and abuse.
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
>The goal is to go after waste, fraud and abuse.
Why do you believe this? Because Elon Musk said so? Elon says a lot of outright false shit. So does Trump.
16 hours ago [-]
__MatrixMan__ 16 hours ago [-]
I don't think you have to take Musk at his word to see that he's not going to get people on Mars without significant resources that earthlings would prefer go towards other things. Government is likely to become a problem for him once the impacts of those decisions are felt.
To him, government efficiency means that the government is out of the way and no longer interfering with his efficiency. Might as well just do away with it entirely.
eightysixfour 16 hours ago [-]
Even people who love Musk need to realize they're cogs in his machine. He's not here to make your life better, he's here to make sure nothing is in the way of the things he wants to achieve. He doesn't care about the quality of your life, the only thing you have, he cares about how much of it can be captured to his ends.
For some people, that seems to be fine. They work at SpaceX and Tesla and his other companies. For many of us, life is the journey and the quality of it matters, not the Martian destination, and he can fuck right off.
ihumanable 15 hours ago [-]
People like Musk dislike the government because people have a say. That say is imperfect and often corrupted, but people get to have some amount of input. They can vote, and organize, and they could decide that they'd rather have roads or water or any number of silly things that get in his way.
Companies are not democracies, Musk says "get rid of the supercharger team" and no one gets a vote, they just get rid of them. We should all be worried about what goals he efficiently wants to achieve, if you or I were in the way, would he care.
The danger is in the unchecked nature of this power, even if someone likes Elon Musk and thinks he's a brilliant genius, what gives him the right to supplant the will of the people with his own.
Elon has shown time and again that he will prioritize what HE wants, and if that means some people don't have jobs, well that's just fine. If that means that people should have to sleep on the factory floor and wake up and make cars he can profit off of and then back to sleep on the factory floor, that's also just fine. If that means that USAID doesn't feed the hungry, that's also just fine.
And maybe to anyone reading this that's happy with what he's done, you are just fine with it too. But what happens when he decides something you do care about is alright to destroy too to meet his goals, he's just fine with it. What do you do then? How confident are you that your goals and his will stay aligned, forever, that the ax of "efficiency" won't come for you and yours someday. And if that day comes, what will you say to the people that tell you "he's a brilliant genius and he's fine with it so so am I"
esafak 13 hours ago [-]
I think such people will align their own values with his. If Elon did it, it was the right thing to do.
dgb23 6 hours ago [-]
If the issue were actual waste and balancing the budget, they'll go after the _actual waste_ like the military budget, or Trump's golf outings. They wouldn't decrease taxes, especially not at the top.
Also trust is earned. Do I have to remind you of the hundreds or thousands of lies, many of them very recent, of these people?
nemo44x 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
crooked-v 18 hours ago [-]
"This decript junk" includes institutional knowledge that will take decades to reconstruct, USAID agents suddenly cut off from all official communication and equipment in the middle of war zones, and basic security guarantees about the payments system used by the US Treasury.
nemo44x 17 hours ago [-]
The useful parts will be preserved but with new people. How can you trust any of the previous regimes managers?
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
All I had to do was look at this regime.
kelnos 18 hours ago [-]
I agree that there is a lot of junk going on in the US government, but Elon Musk is close to the last person I'd trust to do a good, unbiased job cleaning that up.
Especially without oversight or any kind of accountability. Especially when he's flaunting federal law to do so.
nemo44x 18 hours ago [-]
Honestly he’s using a gentler, more precise hand than I would.
Sometimes you need to get into good trouble, necessary trouble.
joyeuse6701 16 hours ago [-]
He's a fool. This is akin to an outside engineer hacking and slashing at code he doesn't understand and then tests it "in production". All of us engineers worth a damn know how that is going to turn out.
nemo44x 14 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
And sometimes you need to tell the world you're a clown.
xvector 16 hours ago [-]
OP explicitly asked for an answer without political rhetoric and you just couldn't help yourself, eh?
> then steer government contracts to themselves.
Provide proof.
cheesemonster 9 hours ago [-]
What is happening is inherently political.
jacobjjacob 21 hours ago [-]
I would guess that part of it is to tear down what’s there so they can rebuild in their own vision. I think this is a desire that any engineer can understand- and also understand that it often has to be suppressed because it’s a common blunder.
How many engineers have walked into a legacy project and their first instinct is to rebuild? Of course this is sometimes warranted, but almost always costs way more than anyone expects and doesn’t necessarily lead to a better outcome.
Edit: I’ll also add that this mentality is more common in younger / junior folks, which fits the context here.
disqard 20 hours ago [-]
I think the word you're looking for is "immaturity".
It is not exclusively found in young people, as one can plainly see with the plutocrats in charge today.
FWIW, even when it is justified in a software context, we understand that there will be a (usually large) business cost.
When implementing this in a political context, there's no way to skim over the fact that there will be a huge human cost. But here we are anyway.
novia 21 hours ago [-]
The goal is to find government waste and to trim the fat. The goal is to make the US government lean, efficient, and effective at improving the lives of Americans while not prioritizing improving the lives of citizens of other nations. The view is that the government of those other nations should be responsible for taking care of their own citizens. The goal is to uncover fraudulent payouts, stop more from going out in the future, and to bring the fraudsters to justice. Overall, the goal is to do a thorough accounting of where exactly US tax dollars are going to, and to use that information to decide if they should keep going to those recipients in the future, to put it to a vote using congress to decide.
[Political bias report: I'm a liberal who has read Rand and who does not agree with The Republican Party's views in the vast majority of cases. I have been listening to Musk and Ramaswamy talking about DOGE on X. I also follow conservative meme sites to keep up to date with the way they are thinking about things.]
kelnos 20 hours ago [-]
If that actually was the goal, and if this function were being executed by a legally formed executive branch agency, with non-partisan career employees that have been properly vetted, hired, and granted security clearances, I might be behind this effort.
But that's not what's happening.
It's clear to me their goal is to dismantle as many "leftist" agencies as possible, like environmental protection, labor rights protection, securities laws enforcement, humanitarian aid, etc., and replace them with people who will enrich their friends and families and allow corporations to run roughshod over the rights of regular people.
It is bizarre to me that anyone could lack the critical thinking skills such that they'd accept DOGE's stated goals at face value.
zo1 5 hours ago [-]
Come now, it's obvious why they're not using "non-partisan career employees that have been vetted..." Please stop assuming we're not thinking critically or clearly if we disagree with you, you can't just shout it into the air and manifest it as truth. There are many arguably 110% valid reasons for why they are doing things the way they are.
They assume, as rightfully a lot of us do, that this all happened under the watch of these same individuals, and that they're arguably biased (we can't assume they're non-partisan). The problem is that the government is in a state of auto-pilot, and that's what led us here because we're not paying attention. In order to get out of it, we need to try something different and get (arguably) impartial or fresh pairs of eyes on the problem.
bende511 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
xvector 16 hours ago [-]
You are arguing for bureaucratic red tape that would take years to implement and get agreement on
That's frankly ridiculous. I'm glad Elon is doing what he's doing. It's time to cut through the BS and ship it.
anigbrowl 15 hours ago [-]
Why is the Constitution hobbled with all those insistences to do things 'by law'?
tock 14 hours ago [-]
Ah yes the bureaucratic red tape of going through democratic institutions. Authoritarianism is always faster.
shigawire 15 hours ago [-]
Easy to say if you won't be negatively impacted.
stainablesteel 17 hours ago [-]
those are most definitely leftist agencies, the federal government is filled with democrat voters and democrats have made it this way over decades, there's extremism everywhere to the point where the agencies overstep their boundaries and go after their political opponents. there's nothing non-partisan about it
robinei 17 hours ago [-]
Calling some of those leftist is quite a condemnation of the right.
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
The EPA was created because RIVERS WERE STARTING ON FIRE and smog in some cities was killing people.
stainablesteel 7 minutes ago [-]
who is destroying the EPA? or is the EPA doing stupid things like forcing Elon to kidnap seals? Who isn't taking their job seriously exactly? It's hard to tell.
Here's an idea, we let the voters decide. Oh right, they did.
anon7000 16 hours ago [-]
Consumer rights, labor rights, and protecting our shared environment should match conservative principles. I agree with improving these agencies and making them work better for people.
But it’s absurd think that the representative government shouldn’t be involved in protecting citizens from companies.
Fact: most companies have only one incentive. To make more profit. Everything else is secondary. Companies have a very, very, very strong incentive to cut costs and hurt people if it helps their short-term bottom line. In fact, making more money is their only incentive. And there are thousands of examples of abuse, from tech getting shittier, to energy companies massively polluting certain regions, to poor safety records, to ballooning health care costs.
That’s a non-partisan fact — abuse from companies hurts everyone.
Your opinion is, apparently, that the free market and these companies themselves are better equipped to protect people. Even though there is absolutely ZERO incentive in capitalism for them to do anything that would protect people if it costs money and doesn’t help their bottom line.
ihumanable 15 hours ago [-]
Ah yes, when that famous Democrat, Richard Nixon, put together the EPA in his dastardly leftist plot to destroy America.
disqard 18 hours ago [-]
If that is the goal, then what happened to "profile before you optimize"?
As an analogy, what's happening feels like this:
* Somebody (let's call them "X") has embarked upon a mission to de-bloat the ancient-but-working family desktop PC.
* X's first actions appear to be to desolder various things from the motherboard, while the computer is on.
* Anyone who sees what X is doing, is somewhere on a spectrum between "scratching their head" <----> "wow, they're trying their best to destroy the PC".
To those defending this particular way of "fixing" things, would you yourself replace a large, working legacy software system in this manner?
tonymet 15 hours ago [-]
Trump understands the "shock and awe" PR strategy. His opponents were caught on their back foot, and he's moving fast while they are in disarray. Military thinking might be more effective than software engineering for this moment.
brigandish 16 hours ago [-]
Certainly, one might test the software by removing access to external systems to see what happens, whether things break, whether it complains… and certainly, that’s what’s happening.
Something I didn’t expect from this was to see the main complainers scramble to define what’s really important to them, thus implicitly justifying many of the cuts made.
disqard 14 hours ago [-]
You're right, as long as software is concerned, and customers being left without service is a non-issue.
Though if you do that with hardware, you might irreversibly break/short a component -- so you unplug, then figure out you actually needed that part, but plugging it back in now won't get the system working again.
I think "running a country" has more hardware-like characteristics than a pure software system.
lm28469 20 hours ago [-]
Some people are about to learn about soft power, how important it is, how fast it's lost, how quickly alternatives fill the gaps
Trasmatta 20 hours ago [-]
None of that is the goal. That's the propaganda.
18 hours ago [-]
maxerickson 18 hours ago [-]
You may want to consider whether you are overly credulous.
sanderjd 20 hours ago [-]
Those may be the stated goals but I don't see any reason to believe those are the goals. Trust is earned.
adastra22 7 hours ago [-]
I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
insane_dreamer 18 hours ago [-]
Those are the stated goals. I’m not sure they are the actual goals.
rat87 16 hours ago [-]
The goal is to enable cronyism and corruption as well as undermine resistance to legally and morally dubious acts.
matthewmacleod 7 hours ago [-]
If that were the goal, I think we'd see some evidence of it.
You do not "do a thorough accounting" by deciding in advance what programs and operations to terminate based on specific ideological viewpoints. I don't doubt for a second that this is "the way they are thinking about things" – but it's hopelessly, irredeemably naive to think that's what's being done.
watwut 21 hours ago [-]
I don't believe Musk or Trum cares about "improving the lives of Americans". They would try to protect Americans if that was their goal. Their first targets are consumer protection, environmental protection and such.
they don't care about fraud either. Both are fraudsters themselves, both will enrich themselves and their families. They both surround themselves with fraudsters.
What I give to Musk is that the staggering nepotism you see with Trump is not there as much.
novia 21 hours ago [-]
They are currently in the process of tearing down USAID, which provides money to other countries to help with things like disease eradication.
Which sounds kind of useful, considering these diseases a) carry over to the USA, b) diminish the buying power of those the USA exports goods to, and c) helps these countries to improve their economies, leading to a bigger market for American products.
Does the Republican Party have any humans with brains left, or is it all slime molds now??
14 hours ago [-]
watwut 20 hours ago [-]
It is not the only thing they do. So, no. There are 0 signs of any care for Americans. And there were zero signs of any such care from either of the gentlemen, ever.
We don't have to pretend naivity.
bitsage 18 hours ago [-]
Emergency and humanitarian aid will remain. I’m sure all the political and cultural funding is gone though. For instance, Pepfar is still running.
> What I give to Musk is that the staggering nepotism you see with Trump is not there as much.
Hiring a bunch of guys who work at companies he or Thiel owns definitely counts as nepotism.
concordDance 19 hours ago [-]
The vast majority of Americans care about improving the lives of Americans. Trump and Musk are likely no exception.
They might care about other things more than that though...
kelnos 18 hours ago [-]
The problem with that simplistic reasoning is that helping people in other countries also can help Americans, sometimes in ways they directly helping Americans can't do.
(I'm not saying that every dollar deployed by USAID succeeds in having a large impact on indirectly helping Americans. But the net effect is surely positive.)
jeltz 15 hours ago [-]
A big example is that almost all plastic in the ocean comes from a couple of Asian countries. No amount of money spent in the US could stop that. But it would likely be very cheap to combine funding plastic recycling with threats of sanctions against those countries.
avs733 21 hours ago [-]
>The goal is to find government waste and to trim the fat. The goal is to make the US government lean, efficient, and effective at improving the lives of Americans while not prioritizing improving the lives of citizens of other nations.
Lets be clear, that is not the goal - that is what they say the goal is and reality shows it is not. The goal is grift and theft adn destruction. Properly naming things is going to continue to matter more and more. Because no matter your bias or perspective, repeating propaganda is an act of propaganda.
novia 21 hours ago [-]
The question I was answering was
> Maybe what goal do they think they're pursuing?
and I was answering that to the best of my ability. I'm not just repeating propaganda, I'm distilling down the intent of the actors to the best of my understanding. No one can ever know someone's true intent, but I've done the best I can with the information I have.
sanderjd 20 hours ago [-]
With all due respect, I don't think you have done the best you can with the information you have. The only source of information your answer reflects is the stated intention of the people in question. But you don't seem to have made an effort to use information about the behavior of those people in order to evaluate whether to take their stated intentions at face value. You need to do that part to have done your best here.
It's fine if you don't want to do this, you're under no obligations here, but I just don't think "I've done the best I can with the information I have" is accurate.
dmix 18 hours ago [-]
The rest of this thread is based on about 1-2 weeks and people making wild projections based on it, that’s not much better.
For example multiple people here are making broad claims like Consumer Protections is completely shutting down, when all that’s been announced is a temporary freeze on operations as the new lead takes over (which happened in multiple agencies). Likewise the stated plan for USAID is to trim down foreign grants and merge the rest with the state department, so we don’t know what functions will continue there or if the Executive branch even has the authority to do that. Courts have already blocked last week’s freeze on federal grants and a few other things. The Mexican tariffs are already paused too and Canada probably isn’t far behind given the large risk to US markets and prices.
As dumb as plenty of this stuff is, it’s easier to get worked up and believe every dire headline you read than maintain a sober look at what tangible things have actually changed or can change that fast.
sanderjd 18 hours ago [-]
There is a lot of truth to this point that not much time has elapsed yet.
But, I think a lot of the thread is more informed by things that have already happened over much longer periods of time in the recent past than it is by the things that have happened in the last couple weeks. Specifically, there is a large amount of information available on the behavior of the current president during his last administration, and on the actions of the person behind the DOGE efforts.
Nobody is under any obligation to maintain a veil of ignorance about who these people have shown themselves to be. They have not earned any benefit of any doubt.
dmix 17 hours ago [-]
> the thread is more informed by things that have already happened over much longer periods of time in the recent past than it is by the things that have happened in the last couple weeks
Almost the entire modern history of the US government (including his last term) showed that not much at all changes. And it definitely doesn’t change quickly. Even stuff like tax rates have barely had any meaningful change considering US tax revenue has only increased exponentially since the 1980s along with the GDP. On paper very little changes in gov when you look more than skin deep.
This might be a new precedent where politicians actually do what they say and work hard to change the government but I’m highly skeptical.
Sounds like a lot of noisy broad stroke announcements and highly reactive social media headlines that will turn out to be minor IRL outcomes or get smacked down in court.
sanderjd 15 hours ago [-]
I think we're talking about different things. The history of human government is chockablock full of corruption. Not just in the US, but everywhere. Individuals with power often use it to enrich themselves at the expense of the public.
The people currently arrogating unaccountable power, illegally, have given us no reason whatsoever to trust them to use it for the public good rather than their own enrichment.
rat87 16 hours ago [-]
There's a difference between trying to improve stuff and wrecking stuff with no concern for the law. The later is a lot easier.
theonething 9 hours ago [-]
> behavior of the current president during his last administration
And what has been the lasting tangible effects of his last administration? Was it the end of democracy and the rise of fascism the Left loves to get hysterical about? Nope. And it won't be the case in this administration either. We can check back in four years to see who's right.
shigawire 15 hours ago [-]
Isn't it a bad sign that this admin is launching tons of ill-conceived initiatives that will be blocked?
I can't see how that is a good thing either, even if you are somehow credulous enough to believe their claims.
Trasmatta 20 hours ago [-]
> I'm not just repeating propaganda
You literally are, though
UltraSane 13 hours ago [-]
Here is some much needed background on how we got here
You are repeating propaganda though. You're describing the stated intentions of this group, on their terms, as they have defined them. There's no particular reason to presume those statements are sincere, and in fact there have been other, previous statements that directly contradict them.
chinathrow 20 hours ago [-]
Right, I can't wait for the announcement that they cut down x in spending and will use some percentage of the "savings" to do y (Mars via Elons proxy Jared Isaacman, AI infrastructure via Oracle/FAANGs) and then claim it will benefit the whole world.
valbaca 18 hours ago [-]
They're literally accelerationists: They're shooting the gov in the face, so they can enact more emergency powers, and then it's one step to pure, raw fascism.
> I'm asking for an answer without political rhetoric
You need to start caring about politics real fast if you care at all.
steve_adams_86 9 hours ago [-]
There is arguably no non-political angle to this. I’m not sure how you’d describe what appears to be happening without it seeming biased.
From here in Canada it looks a lot like the fascist takeovers I’ve read about since middle school. The playbook is bizarrely tight to Hitler, Mussolini, hints of Stalin, etc. I didn’t expect this in my lifetime. Or rather, I imaged I’d see it coming sooner.
theonething 9 hours ago [-]
Hyperbolic hysterics. From here, that's what I observe.
steve_adams_86 1 hours ago [-]
What would seem like a reasonable, measured response right now?
It’s worth adding here too that Musk’s own purported ambitions are entirely political. He has even gone so far as to claim he has given up on democracy. Ironically, he also claimed this election was crucial. DOGE is a politically motivated program.
This is all worthy of intense scrutiny and concern
DustinBrett 14 hours ago [-]
You got your rhetoric as (not) requested.
blfr 21 hours ago [-]
They're cutting their opponents' access to federal funds.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
Also correct. These programs are seen as funding professional democrats who then vote for more funding
golemiprague 21 hours ago [-]
Why those funds were allocated to their ops and not equally to everybody? If those government organisations were serving only one side of the political spectrum than something is inherently wrong with it.
joshstrange 20 hours ago [-]
> If those government organisations were serving only one side of the political spectrum than something is inherently wrong with it.
Is there? I feel like there are many cases where this is not true. Supporting disenfranchised groups for one. If you are funding protection for a group of people you don't need to be funding their attackers as well to make it "fair", the funding of the disenfranchised groups is literally you putting your thumb on the scale to try and even things out.
"one side of the political spectrum" is pretty loaded and it can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. If we are talking about "funding democrats" then sure, that's not good but if we are talking about "funding women's health" then no, I'm not going to play "both sides" games. The sad thing is we live in a country where a large number of people think that "funding women's health" _is_ "serving only one side of the political spectrum".
Capricorn2481 12 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately we're also talking about funding so our rivers aren't on fire. We don't have to speculate on what is left and right because even what is purely sensical is being completely dismantled. People should be fucking outraged but half the country thinks the EPA is "woke." We're genuinely fucked.
auntienomen 20 hours ago [-]
They were allocated equally. The goal is to change that.
liontwist 16 hours ago [-]
What does “equally” mean and how would that be determined?
moduspol 20 hours ago [-]
Welcome to the club of "right wing extremists."
theonething 9 hours ago [-]
and the club of left wing hysterics.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
The goal is to overturn the system. The electorate is mad that nothing changes regardless of Dem or GOP in charge. They want something to change. They've wanted it for so long that at this point they're okay seeing it burn down.
philjohn 20 hours ago [-]
Until it directly impacts them ... and then it's "I didn't think the leopards would eat MY face!".
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
this is irrelevant to the GP's question
UltraSane 13 hours ago [-]
Until there social security checks stop coming. Then they will riot.
sanderjd 20 hours ago [-]
I don't think it's possible to answer this apolitically because their goals are political in nature.
bende511 20 hours ago [-]
They are looking for The Cathedral.
T-A 18 hours ago [-]
Ever seen "Johnny English Strikes Again"? I'm sure Musk did, and is now implementing Jason Volta's plan as just retribution for the not-so-subtle reference hidden in the villain's electric name.
jrflowers 9 hours ago [-]
I love this post. “Explain what is going on with the government without mentioning politics. If the reality is that current events and the people involved in them are driven by ideology, invent a version of reality wherein they are not” is like walking into a Sephora, opening up the folding chair that you’re carrying, and loudly demanding the catfish dinner and a beer.
cco 17 hours ago [-]
> But what is the goal? Maybe what goal to they think they're pursuing? This is hacker news, so I'm asking for an answer without political rhetoric.
I'm a bit confused because the stated goals, either the "digestible" ones or the ones they've stated outside of mainstream media, are all political in nature.
How could you get an answer about the motivation and goals of this behavior that isn't "political"?
theonething 9 hours ago [-]
> This is hacker news, so I'm asking for an answer without political rhetoric.
Sadly, based on the comments here and elsewhere, HN is not immune to political rhetoric.
khold_stare 20 hours ago [-]
This will sound like a conspiracy theory, but this is the playbook of Curtis Yarvin, specifically the "RAGE" step - Retire All Government Employees. Some references:
Watch the whole video (posted months ago predicting all these actions), but here is the relevant section: https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no?t=1201
it's not a conspiracy theory, it's an actual conspiracy. it's all out in the open for reading / download.
khold_stare 14 hours ago [-]
Yep! That's why I said it _sounds like_ a conspiracy theory. Just hope it can be halted in time.
nemo44x 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
stevenwoo 21 hours ago [-]
Isn't this just the Dark Enlightenment that Curtis Yarvin has espoused and Thiel, Musk, and JD Vance have also endorsed? TL;DR - Dictatorships are superior to democracy, and quick executive actions that replace legislative responsibilities with the tacit endorsement of judicial and legislative branches are functionally the same. The foundations for this were laid when Trump got so many Federalist judges approved last term and the Supreme Court endorsed the anything goes if President does it theory.
They are playing post-URSS playbook, at 10x the speed.
It's fascinating that people still wonder what kind of goals they may be pursuing.
The President launched a meme coin 48 hours before being sworn in !!! Even crypto scammers were outraged at the audacity of the scam.
mike_hearn 20 hours ago [-]
The right is at present a coalition of conservatives, nationalist patriot types and globalist libertarians. DOGE seems to be a mix of two goals:
1. They think that the civil service has become not just openly hostile but outright dangerous to any form of Republican government, and therefore that taking direct control of the civil service infrastructure at high speed is essential to avoid being kneecapped by rogue federal employees again. They think that this happened during Trump's first term, and that if they don't get this problem under control then America has effectively become a Democrat dictatorship that does whatever the left wants regardless of who wins elections. They have a good reasons to believe this is a real problem they need to solve and fast, see Sherk for some egregious examples [1] but there are many more you could cite.
2. A genuine belief that the government is very inefficient and in particular that a lot of the waste is basically just funding the Democrats via various 'laundered' routes like allied NGOs that pretend to be politically neutral charities but aren't. Doing something about that is a good way to get libertarians like Musk and his allies on board. Everyone is in favour of government efficiency in principle so letting the libertarian types go cut waste is an easy way to build that coalition even if the other parts don't care about fiscal efficiency much itself.
These two are interlocked. Poor performance and efficiency improvements are one of the legal justifications for laying off civil servants, so it's much easier to get the civil service under control if #resistance results in being one of the ones "optimized out" of a job. That's doubly true if the sort of NGOs that would hire them if they were fired are being defunded simultaneously.
They kneecapped themselves by being a party of opposition with no constructive ideas for decades.
16 hours ago [-]
Clubber 16 hours ago [-]
Cut spending.
Culonavirus 11 hours ago [-]
> This is hacker news, so I'm asking for an answer without political rhetoric
LMAO. That's like going to Reddit and asking for relationship advice.
ranger207 20 hours ago [-]
There's two parts to it. First, there's the reasonable position that the government is inefficient or has too much bureaucracy or regulation. If that's the case, how do you improve that? Chesterton's Fence says that all those regulations are in place for a reason, but it's reasonably to believe that some of those reasons may not be relevant anymore, or could be better written to allow for more efficiency. However, sitting down to figure out why existing regulations exist and how to get rid of them without allowing whatever bad outcome they were created in response to is difficult. If you have the general feel that a regulation is bad, why not just get rid of it? Or an office you don't like, or a committee that likes to say you're doing things wrong? If you've got the vibe that "this thing is bad", why do you need to prove it before getting rid of it? So it's taking things that are legitimate problems and trying to fix them based on vibes rather than data. Which, if some of the problems you're annoyed with are "it takes too long to build a building because the EPA wants data to see if there's environmental impacts", is it really a surprise you'd want to take that out without data?
Second is the dismantling of the deep state. The deep state exists, but it's not a conscious effort in general. Instead, it's the typical aspects of institutional inertia, multiplied by the fact that the kinds of people wanting to work in government favor inertia more than in most private businesses. Of course the low level government bureaucrat at your local post office or whatever is going to want to slow-roll things and keep things from changing as much as possible; that's just the kind of person that typically looks for a government job and gets hired. Of course they're going to resist rapid changes from people that want things to be fixed yesterday. If your conception of the government is as an agent to execute orders, rather than as an agent to steadily administer regulations, then you're going to resent the people who don't respond instantly to the executive's desires
FWIW I voted for Kamela because I think that the process of governance is just as important as the governance itself, and did not want Trump to remove the existing processes in this way. I can definitely see why people would want to change processes, and given the historical ineffectual attempts at changed processes I can see why people would vote for someone who promised to tear it all down, but I don't think tearing it all down is the best option. Although, I didn't vote for Harris as much as I voted for the most effective way to prevent Trump, but given the American first-past-the-post voting system that was the best I could do. https://ncase.me/ballot/
pharrington 8 hours ago [-]
Elon Musk's goal is to gain as much power and control as possible. Line go up.
CPLX 21 hours ago [-]
When reality doesn't agree with logic, question your assumptions.
Why does an alcoholic crash their car and ruin all their personal relationships?
Why does someone with impulse control problems make a self destructive statement?
Why does a tech billionaire who is clearly intoxicated by his own power and a cocktail of legal and illegal drugs behaving erratically?
nemo44x 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
tpm 21 hours ago [-]
It's a plutocratic coup, a takeover of the country by a small group of unelected men. The goal is to own and exercise power without opposition and without any rules.
racktash 19 hours ago [-]
Since it worked so well for Russia in the 90s onwards, why not America?
roland35 13 hours ago [-]
Look up Curtis Yarvin. This is all his libertarian tech bro fantasy come to life
TacticalCoder 19 hours ago [-]
[dead]
deckard1 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
baobabKoodaa 20 hours ago [-]
I'm not even in the U.S. what did I do lol
CrimsonRain 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
tonymet 19 hours ago [-]
Between Elon's stated goals, the systems under scope and my personal experience from state & local finance, they are performing a strategic efficacy audit of treasury spending. The US Treasury normally doesn't audit transactions -- they execute requests for transfers from other agencies and defer governance to congressional oversight.
The GAO doesn't even audit in the intuitive sense. They audit that spending is being recorded properly, and for many agencies even that low bar isn't met. In other words GAO is okay with you dumping money into a hole as long as you count how much.
DOGE is doing a practical audit of the spending. i.e. taking high-level spending principals from trump and identifying specific budget items to eliminate.
guax 5 hours ago [-]
Asking the treasury to do ideological/legal analysis of transactions is the same as giving your bank the responsibility of approving your credit card expenditure based on their idea of what you need/should buy.
The fact that they're going for the payment system and not for contract/orders analysis is exactly the red flag people are and should be concerned about.
mike_hearn 3 hours ago [-]
Banks actually do that though. Credit cards have massive risk analysis engines behind them, and the limits are tied to your creditworthyness. So maybe it's not a good analogy.
Trasmatta 17 hours ago [-]
This is propaganda.
tonymet 15 hours ago [-]
how so?
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
and the messaging saying that it’s a fascist power grab by oligarchs is not propaganda?
This is politics. All parties are presenting messaging that supports their goals.
tonymet 19 hours ago [-]
It's worth noting the difference between Budget & expenses since families normally blur the two. Budgets are the plans developed by the President and approved by Congress, and expenses are what actually get spent during the year-- and they vary widely.
DOGE's unique approach is to use the Treasury as the "chokepoint" for telemetry so they can cluster and classify all of the transactions .
Imagine a massive microservices platform with 10k services and you want to know which ones are viable ( cost/benefit). Rather than survey all 10k, you would surveil a router or LB chokepoint to measure the input & output of all 10k services. That seems to be their approach with the treasury.
kelnos 18 hours ago [-]
One minor nit: while presidents do usually present their version of the ideal budget, Congress is responsible for developing the budget, and what they pass can sometimes look pretty different from what the president proposes.
tonymet 17 hours ago [-]
Good point
siliconc0w 20 hours ago [-]
If DOGE wants to be effective it really should be going after the big ticket items like medicare or defense, some estimates have medicare at 40% fraud and waste and the DoD can't even pass an audit so no one really knows what %. And that is just getting what we've paid for, not even evaluating if what we've paid for is effective.
Of course to do that would require actual coalition building, hard choices that upset voters, and congressional approval. Instead they'll going to disrupt some of the highest ROI small-money grants like food or medicine to impoverished countries because they don't have any representation.
It won't meaningfully reduce the deficit and means we we're signing up for warlords and global instability in the near future.
chrisgd 19 hours ago [-]
Medicare fraud perpetuated by individuals is u likely to be that high. Overbilling by hospital corporations and medical device companies could be possible. But corporations aren’t the target of DOGE.
nxobject 15 hours ago [-]
Not just by individuals - by Medicare Advantage managed care organizations, too… like the biggest insurers in this country.
joe_the_user 12 hours ago [-]
Yes but still not the target of DOGE
nxobject 10 hours ago [-]
Oh yes, I agree with you - I just wanted to mention another source of unaccountable spending on Medicare.
Taikonerd 14 hours ago [-]
The 40% estimate is for fraud and waste combined. "Waste" being things like unnecessary MRIs.
bsimpson 11 hours ago [-]
I wonder how they determine an MRI is wasteful.
When I got hit by a car in Italy, a CAT scan was a standard part of the triage process. Then I went to the ortho in the US and she was flabbergasted - apparently the bar is much higher to get one here.
slantedview 13 hours ago [-]
Nobody gets an MRI for fun.
pugio 13 hours ago [-]
I do. I think it's interesting to have scans of parts of my body – brain, body fat/muscle distribution, etc. I also use them as reference for how my body changes over the decades.
(EDIT: Nothing to do with medicare or fraudulent billing. Just pushing back on the "for fun" point. I can fall asleep in those things.)
RealityVoid 11 hours ago [-]
I expect MRI to be a high capex investment but low cost to run it each time. Maybe someone more knowledgeable might step in.
Of course, to play devil's advocate, using an MRI because you have it might lead to acquiring more MRI machines because of the high usage of the existing ones, I guess.
KingMob 10 hours ago [-]
I used to do MRI experiments in grad school for neuroscience.
One time, I got curious, and did some back-of-the-envelope math on how much they cost. In NYC, an MRI machine drew as much energy in 20 minutes, as my apartment did in a month.
Between electricity, keeping a superconductor cool, and personnel costs, it cost ~$100/hr in a medical facility, 20 years ago.
hmottestad 11 hours ago [-]
I don't think there are all that many MRI machines that just sit there, unused, most of the day. There might be some hospitals that want to reserve their MRI machine for emergencies, so that it's less likely that you'll have to wait when you really need it.
Even though they name cost of operation, energy use, cost of spare parts, maintenance and repair as expenses for running an MRI. It looks to me like the biggest cost by far is going to be the acquisition and installation. So if you've invested in an MRI machine you probably want it to be in use as much as possible in order to recoup the cost of the machine.
adastra22 7 hours ago [-]
There could be though. That's a manufacturing problem.
foota 11 hours ago [-]
MRI techs are paid a lot of money, so I don't think it's entirely free on the margins.
fingerlocks 11 hours ago [-]
Sounds like a DEXA scan would be much more appropriate. Less radiation, cheaper, faster, and specificity tailored for measuring body composition. It’s like 40 bucks and five minutes.
Getting an MRI for body composition is like using industrial high precision equipment to measure the length of a hotdog
montecarl 11 hours ago [-]
Just in case anyone else reads this and is confused. MRIs only use radio waves. No ionizing (or visible or even IR) radiation is used. The strong magnetic fields are a risk (due to interacting with metallic items embedded in the body). The contrast agents also can cause some undesirable side effects.
fingerlocks 6 hours ago [-]
Ha, I knew this comment was coming. I should left it as “More comfortable” but that was too subjective
Taikonerd 3 hours ago [-]
That's true. But under a fee-for-service (FFS) model, providers get paid per procedure they do. That gives them an incentive to order more testing, and generally "do more stuff."
There's also an IT angle (relevant for HN!): medical systems don't always talk to each other. Which means that maybe the patient got an MRI last month, in a different health system... but I don't have access to it in my health system, so I order a redundant one.
small_scombrus 13 hours ago [-]
They give them to people like they're going out of style.
Why just last week I had fourteen of them myself!
thejazzman 12 hours ago [-]
that's it?
jimkleiber 11 hours ago [-]
You mean go after military contractors like SpaceX and Palantir? That would require they actually want to reduce the deficit, not just kill departments that they find evil because of some projected vengeance.
crabmusket 13 hours ago [-]
Great recent article which explores how to actually cut $2T of federal expenses (though if course a tally doing so very quickly would cause a recession):
Most of what's been discussed so far is culture war dog whistling which won't save any money- or just cutting entitlements and hang the consequences.
crabmusket 10 hours ago [-]
Holy typos, batman.
*Though of course actually doing so very quickly would cause a recession
Terr_ 11 hours ago [-]
Plus the whole issue of "the executive branch can't unilaterally change or suspend laws."
Well, not without fascist criminality anyway.
paxys 18 hours ago [-]
It isn’t about budget but about ideology. Firing prosecutors who investigated Trump, firing FBI agents involved in Jan 6th arrests, firing employees for having pronouns in email signatures, going after agencies that spend <.1% of the federal budget just because they have “diversity” or “aid” in the name, using emergency executive power over vague threats like “drugs”. This is a government takeover and purge of anyone who can be considered disloyal to the administration. This may be a surprise to people who have only ever lived under functional first-world governments and the rule of law, but the rest of the world recognizes it as a story that has played out many times before.
jimkleiber 11 hours ago [-]
Exactly. An ideology of "the world is out to get me, I shall seek vengeance on them," which honestly, is maybe the farthest thing from what Christians should believe, if they read any of the New Testament. And I think maybe even has been taboo since Hammurabi.
shipscode 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
xvector 16 hours ago [-]
Will you eat your words and admit you are wrong if Musk frees up a significant fraction of the budget?
ggm 14 hours ago [-]
At what cost? Are we counting lives lost, QALYs, who defines the cost-benefit.
I can free up a lot of budget by sacking the entire armed forces and selling the jets to Ukraine and Saudi Arabia. "freeing up a significant fraction of the budget" is not consequence free. If he forces the health insurance industry to reform and extract a sane profit margin above cost of service, he deserves a medal. If he wipes out USAID and stops his competitors being funded for battery car programmes he secured for himself in times past.. Less such.
"waste" is a very emotive term for government spending. Many economists laugh at the belief spending less money is net advantageous as a thing in itself: money makes the world go round. Sometimes you want it spent more than you want it saved.
s1artibartfast 13 hours ago [-]
Presumably positive lives and QALYs. That's the whole point of cutting taxes for many people. I would rather be spending my money on my health than going without while the fed pisses it away on handouts, corruption, and incompetence.
I want to run the heater so my kids aren't cold but cant afford it. Meanwhile my mayor is using my tax dollars to buy 200 home depot sheds for 800k each from a donor.
Yes, the point is spending money, just by the people who earned it.
ggm 13 hours ago [-]
I can't rebut this without being insulting, or dismissive of the situation you have to live in. I am sorry you are living in such constraint. I continue to believe you are wrong "less tax" will fix your problem but I can say that from the comfort of an economy with a fully hypothicated medicare tax, and something approaching universal health coverage.
I do not believe paying less tax will fix the kind of cynical systematic corrupt behaviour of your mayor, and other tiers of government.
s1artibartfast 13 hours ago [-]
I don't think paying less tax will fix the corrupt behavior of my mayor either, but it would limit my exposure and loss.
Fundamentally, the urge to eliminate taxes and reduce the size of the government is a vote of no confidence. Not just now,but permanently. It's not a vote for reform. I don't think the government leadership has my best interests at heart. I think it would happily take everything I have and leave me to starve in the street if it could.
wpm 11 hours ago [-]
You certainly probably feel that, but I do not believe you thought your way into this position.
xvector 3 hours ago [-]
I would argue it is you that has not seen the balance sheets, absurdly high line items, or worked for a government contractor - else you would 100% agree with his stance on taxation.
A huge chunk of government spending is a horrendous waste/scam and you will likely never understand this unless you take the initiative to look at the spending breakdowns or actually spend a bit of time at a government contractor.
OxO4 11 hours ago [-]
> I don't think the government leadership has my best interests at heart
And for-profit companies have your best interest at heart? With government services you can at least optimize for goals other than profit.
Dylan16807 11 hours ago [-]
Wanting to cut whatever tax is going to those sheds has nothing to do with for-profit companies. They are not the alternative. The alternative is not having the tax.
xvector 3 hours ago [-]
> you can at least optimize for goals other than profit.
The goal should be providing the service I want for the least tax dollars possible.
The government is horrendous at doing this. There is no performance or competitive incentive.
xvector 6 hours ago [-]
The only QALYs that should matter to the US Gov't are American QALYs.
I don't need to be funding $50M worth of condoms to be sent to Gaza. That's a "them" problem, and while there might be second order effects to a population explosion there, I honestly don't care.
beej71 11 hours ago [-]
USAID is a great example of saving pennies by spending dollars.
nickthegreek 14 hours ago [-]
He can save a bunch of money and fire everyone! The amount of money doesn’t matter if what is gone is critical. When those things are lost, we will have to rebuild at a higher cost than maintaining.
lostdog 14 hours ago [-]
If he frees up a significant fraction of budget while making the government better and more effective, and not doing anything illegal or wrong, then yes, I'd be happy to eat my words!
Thing is, I checked my twitter feed for the first time in a month, and was recommended Alex Jones, so I can predict how well DOGE is going to work out pretty accurately.
kmoser 13 hours ago [-]
Better for who? Because since the inauguration, lots of marginalized people are facing increasing government harassment, and if any newly freed monies are applied to more of that, then I'd say the government isn't getting any better for a huge swath of society.
Terr_ 11 hours ago [-]
> and not doing anything illegal or wrong
Though he absolutely, literally is. The executive branch taking control over finances is unconstitutional, and there are likely a bevy of other things involving laws for conflicts of interest and laws for security clearances.
The only question is what'll happen in response when the criminals control so much of the infrastructure.
As a bonus, Musk is currently breaking the First Amendment as well, as he is both wearing a government hat and actively censoring people discussing what he's doing.
UltraSane 13 hours ago [-]
Why the hell should be trust that liar's opinion on what is "waste". He has absolutely no authority to stop any payments that Congress has authorized. Trusting any one person with that much power let alone someone as morally bankrupt as Musk is deeply stupid.
hackyhacky 14 hours ago [-]
In total, federal workforce compensation amounts to 4.3% of the federal budget. So even if Musk fires literally every single federal employee, I would still say that he would not free up a significant fraction of the budget.
dylan604 13 hours ago [-]
but but but, it worked at Twitt...er, X
kelnos 8 hours ago [-]
Only if he does so in a way that doesn't actually hurt the millions of people who rely on that money. Only if he does so in a way that doesn't dismantle agencies that spread the US's soft power around the world. Only if he does so in a way that's auditable, transparent, and accountable.
Even if he does manage to find his $2T to cut (which I think is pretty unlikely), he will fail at the above metrics.
But sure, it would be cool to be proven wrong on that. I really hope I'm wrong. Otherwise he'll have hurt a ton of people (that he doesn't care about) and will have set the US back on the world stage decades. Not to mention... hello recession... or worse.
enumjorge 14 hours ago [-]
> if Musk frees up a significant fraction of the budget?
Freeing up money is not actually that hard. Doing it in a constructive way is a lot more difficult. I could go in and completely defund roads, airports, social security, public schools, the courts, the military, and save a ton of money.
Then what. What's the big plan? What are we going to do with all this money that will give us a better ROI?
That money was paying for stuff. Some stuff runs smoothly we enough that we take it for granted. Is everything perfect? No, but I'd like to see a little more care when screwing around with important infrastructure and services.
This reminds me of people that join a legacy software project and start proposing that you do a completely rewrite of the system without really understanding why certain decisions were made. It's almost always a total disaster and then someone else needs to come up and clean up after them.
lunarboy 3 hours ago [-]
Why stop there? Just don't spend tax dollars on anything, 100% of the budget freed. This is such a stupid fucking argument
nxobject 15 hours ago [-]
How much is “significant”?
computerthings 15 hours ago [-]
What words? That this playbook of making promises to then create another crisis to change the subject is well known? That is true and will remain true. Will you read up on the 20th century so you're on the same page as the comment you're replying to?
But how would the words "it's not about the budget, but ideology" but refuted by budget cuts, anyway? I can give you candy in my van, and the candy can be real, but that still doesn't make it about the candy. And freeing up a significant fraction of the budget is hardly saying anything. You can save money by throwing people on the streets and letting them starve. You can make money by letting drug dealers go free and making them give the government a cut of the profits. Maybe not enough to offset the tax cuts to the super rich, or the costs incurred by just setting everything on fire to consolidate wealth for a few sociopaths, but probably "significant". So? That's supposed to be an argument for waving firing prosecutors for political reasons through?
BenFranklin100 13 hours ago [-]
Musk has zero chance of freeing up a ‘significant’ fraction of the budget. 73% of the budget goes to mandatory spending (social security, Medicare, Medicaid, interest payments, and other income assistance programs). Musk will touch zero of this. Trump and the GOP won’t let him. The Democrats too for that matter. And it’s mandatory spending is what has been exploding over the last decade, not discretionary spending
The remaining 27% is split 50/50 between defense and everything else. Musk will not be given access to the DOD. The remaining half of discretionary includes things like transportation, R&D/science funding , education, NASA/SpaceX, climate/energy, etc… essentially a lot of high value investments for our future that slashing would be like shooting ourselves in the foot.
It's so sad and disappointing that no one seems to understand this. It is literally impossible for Musk to cut $2T of spending, at least not without an act of Congress. An act that would likely be career suicide for even the most right-wing reps and senators once their constituents stop receiving their social security checks and health care. And when the bond market collapses when we stop paying interest on our debts.
karthikk 15 hours ago [-]
Non-American here, from the outside it seems like the Jan 6 thing was way overblown. It feels like similar things happen in other govt buildings in the USA all the time but the perpetrators were not targeted the same way. Not condoning either, but there seems to be selective govt retribution.
coffeefirst 12 hours ago [-]
I live in DC; it was not overblown.
Big rowdy protests on all matter of topics are fine. I actually used to work across from an embassy and they had huge street-closing protests every year. I'd walk straight through them to go grab a sandwich, I never felt unsafe.
This was something else. They stormed the fences, smashed windows, broke into the Capital building, they trashed the place, they beat the shit out of the cops. People died. DC Metro Police officers—let's be clear, they deal with real crime—described this as the most brutal hand to hand combat they'd ever experienced.
I'm not sure what you've heard about America. If you ever have a chance to visit DC, do it, it's a very cool city.
They were trying to overturn an election that they lost. Historically, failing to overthrow the government is unhealthy.
scarab92 14 hours ago [-]
There was zero real prospect of that occurring, especially with broad agreement across the aisle that Trump lost.
It was a protest that got out of hand. Those who committed violence deserved custodial sentences, but the rest who were mere trespassers never should have seen the inside of a jail cell.
jeremyjh 14 hours ago [-]
Right. So treason is fine as long as you are fucking clown about it?
PixyMisa 11 hours ago [-]
The total number of people charged with, much less convicted of treason, is zero.
bagels 10 hours ago [-]
Seditious conspiracy is pretty close, but also, Biden dropped the ball on prosecuting.
"To prepare for the attack on the Capitol, Tarrio and the other leaders of the Ministry of Self Defense established a chain of command, chose a time and place for their attack, and intentionally recruited others who would follow their top-down leadership and who were prepared to engage in physical violence if necessary."
suzzer99 13 hours ago [-]
This is just willful ignorance. See the links others have posted.
altcognito 13 hours ago [-]
Oh yeah, if you erase the fake electors, and the entire scheme by the presidents men to overturn the results, you can pretend that
intended 11 hours ago [-]
Absolutely. This is how it was during Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush 2, Obama, Biden. There’s always a protest.
It’s totally a normal part of the past half century plus of the peaceful transition of power.
People get together on DC to help the outgoing president threaten and scare congress, to see if they change the way the election is called.
It’s just one of those things that people do to see if America is actually strong, and if congress folds, well you know you need a new congress.
Its tradition! Its like a hazing!
Goronmon 14 hours ago [-]
There was zero real prospect of that occurring, especially with broad agreement across the aisle that Trump lost.
I mean, there was a whole plan around certifying the results of the election and it's not entirely clear how many people would have gone along with it if things had gone just a little bit different.
I agree that Jan 6 was not that big a deal. However, Jan 6 was just one part of a larger, nearly successful conspiracy to overturn the election. The conspiracy included pressuring the Vice President to exceed his authority; fraudulent electors; and extorting false claims of fraud from states.
bogomog 12 hours ago [-]
How is not a big deal that a few thousand citizens were various levels of conscious and unconscious participants in an organized coup attempt?
scarab92 11 hours ago [-]
Explain Trump getting re-elected in 2024.
As on-the-nose as the Democrats are, I don't think that would have been possible if the public thought he orchestrated a serious attempt at a coup.
hackyhacky 11 hours ago [-]
The public are misled, thanks to omnipresent right-leaning media and increasingly hard-to-penetrate echo chambers.
In the immediate aftermath of Jan 6, even his fellow republicans called it a coup, until they changed their minds for political expediency.
zmgsabst 13 hours ago [-]
Yeah - they should’ve just had a court overturn it like Romania!
dylan604 13 hours ago [-]
In comparison to other countries where coups are almost normal, for a country that has not come close to that, this was a big shock to the accepted normal. When other countries like Syria overthrow their leaders, you almost go "of course they did", but to see anything approaching that in the US is totally out of left field. That's what makes it a bigger deal than what you want think.
13 hours ago [-]
suzzer99 13 hours ago [-]
> It feels like similar things happen in other govt buildings in the USA all the time
This is exactly how public perception will instantly normalize things if Trump ever gets the power to throw political enemies out of windows. "Oh this stuff happens all the time. Politicians have always been killing their enemies. Look up Seth Rich and Whitewater. Don't be so naive."
It will happen in the blink of an eye. And then it really is over.
altcognito 13 hours ago [-]
I can assure you, despite superificial anecdotes — nothing similar happens “all the time”. protestors will find their way in buildings, but they typically don’t show up, destroy barricades, get shot, plant explosives. And they certainly don’t do it right as they were attending a rally designed to stroke exactly this situation
scarab92 14 hours ago [-]
Agree with this. Not to condone Jan 6, but the prosecution of those protestors was punitively harsh. People who should have been given simple fines for trespassing were instead given custodial sentences.
ta-2847281492 14 hours ago [-]
I sat on a January 6 jury that voted to convict the accused, who was then sentenced to several years in jail. I watched hours and hours of participant and security camera footage and listened to testimony from a Constitutional lawyer of the Senate and many law enforcement officers who were there that day (and could be identified in the footage).
Most of the Jan 6 trespassers got off pretty easy, especially if they settled. Most of them who made it into the rotunda stood around gaping with dumb looks on their faces, like the proverbial dog that catches the car. They didn’t know what to do and they sensed they shouldn’t be there. Many of them then listened to Capitol police offers in the building and exited.
But many didn’t exit and they formed a tense, violent, and scary mob, in the seat of our government, to disrupt the Constitutional transfer of power. It is amazing that more people didn’t die (a SWAT team quickly dispersed the mob outside the Speaker’s lobby right after the lone shooting) and there were many acts of heroism and smart policing to distract, disorient, and delay the mob, buying more time for evacuation of Members of Congress and for law enforcement to regroup in force. Many in the mob had weapons, which is a couple of felony counts right off the bat (possessing weapons in the Capitol, which is looser than you may think, and possessing weapons in the Secret Service restricted area around POTUS and VPOTUS, which is a felony that doesn’t mess around).
The felonies and misdemeanors at issue in the case I was on were pretty clear and the jury reached its verdict thoughtfully, carefully, and quickly (we all quietly read through the many pages of the counts and judge’s instructions before opening discussion; it was an excellent group of people).
January 6 was an insurrection. Most members of the mob were sad sack idiots, and I can feel sympathy for them as individuals. But if anything, the government did not treat them harshly enough, nor quickly enough.
I am a bit worried about my own safety now, with all the insurrectionists having been pardoned. Fun times.
k3vinw 5 hours ago [-]
You had hours of video because the National Guard was intentionally delayed while waiting only 2 miles away from the Capitol. DOD officials were caught lying to Congress about it.
ta-2847281492 5 hours ago [-]
The mob was inside for really only 45-50 minutes. There was hours of video because there’s obviously a huge amount of video evidence from all the devices seized by FBI and from the many cameras inside the Capitol. The prosecution showed us video only relevant to the accused, but there was a lot of it.
tomp 7 hours ago [-]
What kinds of weapons fid they have?
If it was an insurrection, why didn’t they use them?
Or was it the peaceful kind?
ta-2847281492 5 hours ago [-]
They didn’t use them because:
1. They got lost.
2. When they got to the House, Cap Police was there, and distracted/delayed them for a few minutes.
3. Officers with guns drawn were on other side of doors.
4. Ashley Bobbitt was shot as soon as she started to climb through the Speaker’s lobby doorway, stopping and upsetting the mob.
5. The Capitol police SWAT came up the stairs into that area a minute or two later and cleared them out.
6. And finally I can’t emphasize this enough: these people were morons.
I don’t really want to argue online with a redpilled HN idiot about Jan 6. If you think Jan 6 wasn’t bad, then you, too, have likely been mislead because you, too, are likely a moron. Or if you’re not a moron, then you’ve just turned heel for the lulz, a moldbug wannabe.
foldr 5 hours ago [-]
Ctrl+F ‘weapon’ and ‘gun’ in the House Jan 6 report. The details of what happened are exhaustively documented there and elsewhere.
not much of an insurrection, we could say a mostly peaceful one
ta-2847281492 5 hours ago [-]
Knives are weapons, too, as are other things.
foldr 5 hours ago [-]
You have the answer to your question.
I find it odd that you’re ok with peaceful insurrections. It’s not ok for a small mob to attempt to overthrow the government, whether they go about it violently or not. (Ironically, the fictional election fraud that was being protested would itself be a peaceful insurrection, so one wonders what supporters of peaceful insurrections would have found to complain about in Biden’s victory!)
You can read the rest of the report if you are still inclined to view this disgraceful episode in US history as a ‘mostly peaceful’ one.
k3vinw 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
bobmcnamara 14 hours ago [-]
169 people were sentenced relatively lightly for brawling with capitol police.
stuffoverflow 10 hours ago [-]
As a non-American I don't think Jan 6 was overblown. It had some real potential for escalation had Pence given in to Trump's demands. At the same time I do think the prosecution was too harsh, though that can be said from just about any crime in the US. Morally Trump is way more responsible for Jan 6 than any of the protestors.
13 hours ago [-]
Goronmon 14 hours ago [-]
Outside of it being a "thing that happened in a govt building", the goal of Jan. 6th was to prevent the certification of the election, have the results be declared invalid and for Trump to declare himself president instead of Biden.
The fact that this failed doesn't really mean that the underlying intention was just "protesting".
Terr_ 11 hours ago [-]
What would be a good example of these "similar" situations you were thinking of?
Do they involve a crowd smashing through doors and windows specifically to reach or at least terrorize human victims inside?
likeabatterycar 11 hours ago [-]
The Floyd riots in Portland a few years ago which got memory holed.
Rioters were shining high power military-grade lasers at peace officers, assaulting cops. They sieged government buildings and destroyed and burned much of their own city. Nothing happened to most of them.
A young boy was shot and killed in Seattle (where a few blocks of the city 'seceded' from the US) and I watched some LARPing teenager dressed like a dollar-store ninja hit a cop in the head with a baseball bat (the ninja turned out to be a local politician's son so I can imagine the punishment levied). The mayor went on TV and described all this madness as a "summer of love".
The behaviour I observed was abhorrent and eclipsed anything that transpired on Jan 6.
Yet it was all conveniently forgotten.
Smashing some doors and windows was child's play in comparison, and the melodrama surrounding 1/6 was over the top. I actually heard someone describe it as "worse than 9/11". They were serious, too.
And you want me to believe the guy on 1/6 with the buffalo horns is somehow comparable to the cowards blinding people with industrial lasers? The Portland riots to this day is some of the most insane footage I've ever seen and the lack of punishment and length of time it was allowed to go on is unbelievable.
Most of the Portland rioters should still be in jail but most got off with a slap on the wrist if they got any punishment at all.
It's an inconvenient truth for some because I remember even middle aged Google engineers were arrested for acting like fools. You would think educated people would know better.
There is a 100% chance some posters on this very website were at the Portland or Seattle riots and somehow have justified that their participation was righteous.
I imagine the 1/6 folks felt the same way.
nxobject 10 hours ago [-]
Where on earth are you getting “burned and destroyed much of [Portland]” from? As a Portlander, the biggest effect of the Floyd protestors was boarded up buildings in the 10-block radius around the local county jail, in the middle of a moribund pandemic-era office skyscraper district. Please, if you believe an American city’s been destroyed, at least pause and double-check before making it the centerpiece of an argument.
(Many of those arrested were let off because of insufficient evidence. I think that requiring evidence to convict someone is a good thing.)
likeabatterycar 9 hours ago [-]
"Uhm acksually, it was only 10 square blocks"
I know what I saw, it was repugnant behaviour, don't try and split hairs. The fact that the madness was contained to only 10 blocks is, on the whole, irrelevant.
Good luck with your future riots.
nxobject 7 hours ago [-]
Oh no, I was disputing the "burned and destroyed" part – don't pick and choose what I said and ignore the rest.
I know what I saw: between 2020 and 2024 I worked at PSU and took a bus that went over the Hawthorne Bridge, went past the Justice Center, and dropped me off near City Hall. Once in a while I went to Pioneer Square to eat lunch. I worked late nights, and on the way back home after midnight I either walked back on Broadway or 4th, to City Hall, and took the same bus back. Those are the "10 blocks" you're talking about. The fact that they were all standing, not burnt, and were in use during business hours is fairly relevant to the conversation.
The worst I saw was the glass broken in the fancy glass entrance to the Oregon Historical Society. The best I saw was murals painted on the boards Apple had put up to protect their store in Pioneer Square.
So: what did you see?
selimthegrim 7 hours ago [-]
Portland is the seat of government of the USA now? (I used to live in Kenton/St Johns when the latter was still called Tweakville, although I moved away well before 2020)
nxobject 5 hours ago [-]
Homes there are going for at least 500k now, I think…
selimthegrim 2 hours ago [-]
Ha! I lived on Pier Park Place across from a heroin dealer.
kelnos 8 hours ago [-]
Ok so even if I agree with your description of those two events, two things don't make "happens all the time".
macrael 14 hours ago [-]
American here, nope! It was a huge deal. An attempt to disrupt the peaceful transition of power. Not sure what other examples you think were on par but it was the kind of big deal where people went home sick to their stomachs for the day because I've never seen anything like it in my life. A desecration of something sacred.
kelnos 8 hours ago [-]
Can you provide examples of when something similar has happened in other US government buildings? I'm American and I can't think of anything, at least not anything that happens "all the time".
Jan 6 was not overblown. Rioters rushed the building, smashed windows, and broke into the offices of Congresspeople and staffers. People were injured and hospitalized. Capitol Police were understaffed and lost control of the situation, and were physically attacked.
Those convicted of crimes due to their part in Jan 6 deserved what they got. It is a disgusting miscarriage of justice that nearly all of them have been pardoned.
k3vinw 11 hours ago [-]
Yes. Sadly, abusing the justice system to harshly punish your political opponents by forcing them to either accept trumped up charges or bankrupt them is something new here. The circus has been quite the spectacle.
UltraSane 13 hours ago [-]
Their goal was to prevent The Vice President from certifying Biden's electoral college victory as the US constitution mandates. That is a VERY BIG DEAL.
Terr_ 11 hours ago [-]
"Your honor, I was just shoving the guy a little cuz he pissed me off, that happens all the time!"
"Mr. Redcap, you tried to shove him off a cliff."
lemonberry 15 hours ago [-]
"It feels like similar things happen in other govt buildings in the USA all the time but the perpetrators were not targeted the same way."
Huh? American here. Can you point to any examples? I can't think of a single one.
chasd00 14 hours ago [-]
People break into state chambers all the time to disrupt votes. It’s happened in Texas a few times in the last 5 years or so.
Terr_ 11 hours ago [-]
That many in Texas? Can you link to a couple?
I'm not seeing much in a quick search... unless you mean people who arrive normally and then are removed for heckling, which is totally different.
kelnos 8 hours ago [-]
"A few times in the last 5 years or so" != "all the time".
dylan604 13 hours ago [-]
What? When? Where?
tatrajim 14 hours ago [-]
Remember May 31, 2020?
"Secret Service agents rushed President Donald Trump to a White House bunker on Friday night as hundreds of protesters gathered outside the executive mansion, some of them throwing rocks and tugging at police barricades.
"Trump spent nearly an hour in the bunker, which was designed for use in emergencies like terrorist attacks, according to a Republican close to the White House who was not authorized to publicly discuss private matters and spoke on condition of anonymity. The account was confirmed by an administration official who also spoke on condition of anonymity.
"The abrupt decision by the agents underscored the rattled mood inside the White House, where the chants from protesters in Lafayette Park could be heard all weekend and Secret Service agents and law enforcement officers struggled to contain the crowds."
As near as I can find, some 6 people were arrested for this violent protest by the Secret Service, and some 16 by DC police. Is is vanishingly difficult to find if anyone was subsequently charged and convicted for this event, which was without parallel, at least in my lifetime. This followed the events of May 30, 2020, when the Church of St. John's Episcopal In Lafayette Square, across from the White House, was sent on fire. To date it seems that no one has been arrested or charged for this destruction.
So they didn't even attempt to enter the building and they certainly didn't attempt to overthrow election results? I just cant see how you think these are the same category of event with respect to political impact.
tatrajim 11 hours ago [-]
They burned the church and tried to break into the White House forcing an evacuation of the president! The 1/6 riot, by contrast, was by turns both violent and civil, but no one was armed and attempting "to overthrow the election results". In fact the Trump plan of continuous debate over the merits of the election was thwarted by the riot. It was diametrically opposed to his interests and ended up favoring the Democrats. Many questions still linger over the identities of major participants, including the "pipe bomber" and the "scaffold commander", whom the FBI unaccountably never identified. Note that the 1/6 participants were relentlessly tracked by the state for years by some 6000 FBI agents and tried in DC courts, unlike the 2020 rioters aiming to storm the White House.
This one wasn’t restricted to just a govt building, although it did start with the takeover of a police building. Kids were shot and killed. But the rioters were initially aligned with BLM so there was a lot of sympathy from the government and media. Barely anyone was investigated or punished, in contrast to Jan 6th.
titanomachy 14 hours ago [-]
They didn't take over the police building. They protested outside it, and the police boarded it up and voluntarily vacated it.
This was basically a very long street protest, which is fundamentally different from taking over the US legislative buildings by force.
No children were shot. A 19-year old named Horace Lorenzo Anderson Jr was shot and killed. His killer, an 18-year-old mentally disabled person with a history of conflict with Anderson, was sentenced to 14 years in prison.
No matter your ideology, I'm not sure how you can believe this is the same category of thing.
qwerpy 14 hours ago [-]
The link I posted has a crime section. There were 5 separate shootings. A 16 year old boy was shot and killed and a 14 year old was shot and in critical condition. From a loss of life due to violence perspective, CHOP/CHAZ was worse.
ModernMech 13 hours ago [-]
> From a loss of life due to violence perspective, CHOP/CHAZ was worse.
But from a potential to overthrow the government perspective, Jan 6 was worse. The entire Senate and the Vice President were in that building. The stated goal of the mob was to stop the transfer of power ("stop the steal"). They chanted their methods, which included hanging the Vice President and Speaker of the House, 1st and 2nd in line of succession. They brought a gallows. That's why it was an insurrection and not just a protest.
13 hours ago [-]
hn_throwaway_99 14 hours ago [-]
> It feels like similar things happen in other govt buildings in the USA all the time
That is a laughable assertion, most importantly because the job that Congress was doing on Jan 6th, and which the deliberate goal of the protesters was to stop, was the peaceful transfer of power, which is probably the most important (and historically rare) job in a modern democracy.
Saying "but hey, some left wing protesters surrounded a police station" is a ridiculous false equivalence, because what they were trying to accomplish was orders of magnitude different.
tayo42 14 hours ago [-]
More then one person died. That doesn't happen. What are you talking about?
lenkite 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
beej71 11 hours ago [-]
The Democrat party wasn't the one who prosecuted or jailed these people.
And one of those grandmothers rejected her pardon.
zo1 5 hours ago [-]
The Democrat party is aligned and heavily-overlapping with what everyone is calling "the deep state". And the state is the one that prosecuted those individuals.
That is why everyone is calling out the alternative treatment of the BLM rioters which are heavily-aligned and supported by the Democratic party. If it was indeed the "state" that was impartially and fairly prosecuting and jailing all law-breakers, then the Republicans would have no argument and I'd be the first to disagree with them. But to a lot of us, the bias and double-standards are very obvious, which is why we're supporting them now.
inetsurfer 11 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
turtlesdown11 4 hours ago [-]
> some estimates have medicare at 40% fraud and waste
same tired old lies, medicare is more efficient than private insurance
test6554 17 hours ago [-]
Even if they somehow managed to clear $250 bn in wasteful federal expenses, people would still be upset and start demanding how it should be spent.
beej71 11 hours ago [-]
They did save that billion dollars... Enough to power the federal government for a little over an hour.
crooked-v 14 hours ago [-]
They don't want to be effective. They want to punish and humiliate anyone they don't like, and lie about it because claiming "efficiency" is an easy way to get overly credulous American moderates to look the other way.
speakfreely 12 hours ago [-]
As someone who witnessed the absurd corruption of the weird fiefdoms carved out by the horrifically inefficient career staff at the Department of State and USAID, I have to say that all this really couldn't happen to a better set of people.
BenFranklin100 13 hours ago [-]
You don’t really need to get moderates to look the other way when you have crazed MAGA going at this gung-ho.
bamboozled 13 hours ago [-]
Musk also thinks it's funny we all have to say "DOGE" because he is a petty moron with the sense of humor of a spoiled 13 year old gamer from the year 2000.
rasz 19 hours ago [-]
> should be going after the big ticket items like medicare or defense
ok, but just after he fixed twitter bots like he promised, or ships working Autopilot.
johnbellone 18 hours ago [-]
It’s cute you think they’re trying to be “effective”.
rsoto2 12 hours ago [-]
LOL the trump admin just ressuplied Israel to the tune of a billion to keep murdering children defense budget is not getting cut
solatic 20 hours ago [-]
Catching Medicare fraud likely requires a level of automatic data anomaly analysis that's simply beyond all the participants involved, both in terms of getting access to the actual databases and in getting the qualified manpower to build such a system.
If the DoD's auditors can't track down all the expenses, then why would DOGE be any more successful?
Running after bullshit is the low-hanging fruit.
jacobjjacob 18 hours ago [-]
I think that the practical solution is to hire more auditors/investigators, and they would end up paying for themselves, but I don’t think Elon would accept a solution that requires more humans and up front cost.
kyrra 14 hours ago [-]
Trump and almost all of Congress doesn't want to touch the entitlements. Bush Jr tried to reform social security and got trounced for it. Since then no one seriously tries to change it because the other side will beat you over the head with it, even if they are half truths.
Voters like to vote themselves "free" things, even if it might destroy the economy.
aishdbxjdns 13 hours ago [-]
This has been a known pattern for millennia. Democracy as it is today in the US suffers from the same ills Plato discussed. It is not a good nor sustainable system. It is not the system the founding fathers put in place.
That none of our rulers question it nor propose alternatives is very telling about who runs our society and what their end goals are. The only reason society appears to be improving (and it is on the whole) is due to our incredible technological advancement. That being said, we should be living in a utopia by now if our rulers weren’t parasites.
whimsicalism 14 hours ago [-]
i will vote for whichever party reforms entitlements and raises taxes, especially less distortionary taxes like on inheritance, property, and consumption.
UltraSane 13 hours ago [-]
the estate tax should be 100% of anything over $20 million. If property taxes on homes and land are legal then they should also apply to anyone who ones more than $20 million in shares of public companies.
IG_Semmelweiss 13 hours ago [-]
who manages businesses that are owned by sole owners that pass away?
Who controls Stripe if the Collison brothers perish in a car crash ?
What do you think happens with the customer base, during that transition, exactly ? What happens to the jobs lost?
If i work all my life to give my kids a better future, who's to say that I can't do that ?
UltraSane 12 hours ago [-]
"Who controls Stripe if the Collison brothers perish in a car crash ? "
Employees.
"who manages businesses that are owned by sole owners that pass away?"
Whoever they hire.
"If i work all my life to give my kids a better future, who's to say that I can't do that ?"
$20 million is plenty. Taxing someone AFTER they die is the fairest possible time to do so. Insisting you should have control of your assets even after you are dead is pretty absurd when you really think about it.
EDIT: Honestly the minimum could be $100 million or even $1 billion. The goal is to prevent a permanent class of overlords from growing.
IG_Semmelweiss 2 hours ago [-]
I actually think we are talking about different things.
I don't dispute that you are coming from a sincere POV, but my point is that you haven't thought about the 2nd order consequences.
Liquidations are always messy, and usually wipe out value, and result in real losses of jobs and of customers. Have you thought about what happens when a trained operator is moved aside, by a vote of activist staff, to a charlatan (AKA "politician")?
Or, what about the tax consequences to the employees who get the awards ? What cash do they use to pay for the award ? Now employees are forced to sell to have liquidity. Who buys from them? A vicious CEO partnered with a vulture PE? Or maybe a competitor sitting on a pile of cash, with the well connected CEO's hidden knowledge about a founder competitor's health issues, and eagerly anticipating a monopoly upon death?
There's a million ways this goes literal off the rails. No company, no jobs, complete wealth destruction. There is another name for this action, when done without "regulation" support: its called confiscation or nationalization, and its usually done by despots or tyranical govts without respect to human flourising. That tells you all you need to know about this sort of tax.
An immoral action that is not illegal, its still immoral.
The road to serfdom is paved with good intentions.
TeaBrain 11 hours ago [-]
>"Who controls Stripe if the Collison brothers perish in a car crash ? "
>Employees.
The controlling interest in a company is determined by shares owned. This reads like you're suggesting that the revenue from inheritance taxes should be given in the form of shares to the employees of whichever company the deceased had ownership of.
UltraSane 11 hours ago [-]
"the revenue from inheritance taxes should be given in the form of shares to the employees of whichever company the deceased had ownership of."
This is actually a really good idea!
stubish 11 hours ago [-]
Whoever purchases the business at auction. Transition? Businesses already need to cope without a CEO for periods, such as injury. Might even go smoother if the executor gets to appoint an acting manager and is able to authorize the CFO to keep paying wages and bills.
Work all your life to give yourself and your kids excessive power over me? I didn't agree to that. Society gets to decide what the social contract is, and a lot of us are not happy that excessive wealth/power is able to be accumulated, negatively affecting our lives. Why are we forced to also accumulate unnecessary wealth in order to defend ourselves? Perhaps a better reward for success is leisure and stress free living and providing an opportunity for another to also succeed and flourish.
pembrook 12 hours ago [-]
Yes, let’s further remove everyone from nature’s only real instinct for selflessness (familial bonds) so we can all become disembodied laborers for our true family: the central planner class in Washington.
I’m sure creating a strong disincentive to value creation won’t affect the economy in any way. Europe is doing so great with their much higher taxes, just look at Norway. By wealth tax hammering their entrepreneurial class the’ve encouraged them to leave so they can fully focus their economy on becoming a natural resource extracting petro-state. A real progressive utopia.
It’s not like we’d be creating a crazy strong incentive for the state to literally kill certain people to stay solvent. Ok, low key maybe we would be…but the Bolsheviks did such a fantastic job with all the private assets they seized.
There’s no possible way this can’t result in a utopian, prosperous, fair society. It works beautifully every time it is tried. Great idea comrade.
UltraSane 11 hours ago [-]
$20 million of completely unearned money is plenty for children to inherit.
pembrook 11 hours ago [-]
Yes, it makes perfect sense. Don't address any of the counterpoints I raised, ignore the implementation details, and just keep repeating that. It sounds like a really great idea.
Artificially creating fairness by eliminating success has no downsides, especially in a competitive anarchic global system. It's gonna feel so good to not have those evil entrepreneurs trying to create too much value in the world to enrich their families. Fairness should be the ultimate end goal for everything, not overall prosperity. Because nature is 100% fair, this totally aligns with reality.
History has shown these systems work every time.
UltraSane 11 hours ago [-]
Children of rich people don't automatically deserve all of that money they did nothing to earn.
pembrook 10 hours ago [-]
Yep, and good looking people don't deserve all the preferential treatment they get in the world. Those genes were inherited from their parents.
We should do plastic surgery to the best looking children to make them average-looking...it's social justice.
We won't achieve true fairness until we forcibly take central control of all decentralized processes (markets, nature) to ensure no tall poppies.
mckn1ght 9 hours ago [-]
Bad analogy. Money is representative of externalities, of things exchanged by others, like the time they spent working to earn the income, or selling something, and it extends through many levels of transactions in society.
That’s nothing like someone’s good looks, which, by the way, is subjective and has changed over the ages.
pembrook 8 hours ago [-]
Using this logic, having good genes represents an even greater injustice.
As you have said, money is a fuzzy representation of at least some value created via societal transactions.
Genetics, on the other hand, are wholly undeserved, even by the people passing them on. If we aim to champion fairness, I don't see how this cannot be part of the conversation.
mckn1ght 32 minutes ago [-]
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. If that’s what you want to believe, so be it, but I disagree.
mckn1ght 9 hours ago [-]
Do you actually expect serious responses to your hyperbolically emotional and sarcastic posts? Well, here goes…
The only implementation detail I would change is the flat rate of $20 million. I would peg it to something like GDP per capita or average CoL multiplied by some number of years.
People have come from nothing and gone on to do amazing things. If you can’t get some kind of profit generating company off the ground or at least passive income through wise investing with that kind of windfall, then you quite frankly deserve to work in the proverbial widget factory with the unwashed masses. To wine about that betrays the lack of grit that probably lost you the nest egg on the first place.
The best entrepreneurs are the ones that are interested in learning and building amazing things. The ones in it to hoard wealth saddle the world with bullshit because it’s a bullshit incentive that requires bullshit mechanisms to protect their income stream. Think patent trolls.
If you want to see what fair looks like in nature, look at what every other animal beside humans get when they start life: the risk that around every corner lies a disease, predator, competitor, starvation, grave injury… What presumably sets humans apart and allowed us to thrive is cooperation on larger and larger scales throughout our evolution. Hoarding wealth is antithetical to the very thing that is supposed to make us an exceptional species.
pembrook 8 hours ago [-]
There's a deep irony in both acknowledging that humans thrive on cooperation and building on the work of those that came before us, and yet also wanting to forcibly disrupt that process and centrally re-distribute wealth to less efficient but "fair" means every time someone dies.
"Hoarding wealth" is the entire reason we have capital to invest in new ideas and innovations.
Fairness sounds great of course! Who doesn't like fairness? The problem is, true fairness is neither achievable nor desirable, given the realities of human nature.
When you aim to force it onto the world via centralized authority, it generally results in worse outcomes since it can only be enforced punitively via the stick (instead of the carrot) -- creating even less fair power structures than the ones you aim to disrupt.
The point of my sarcastic posts is to illustrate this fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and how the world actually works. Again, we've tried this a million times, with the receipts to show for the results. It's not good.
mckn1ght 22 minutes ago [-]
If money is the representation of the cooperative effort that has come before you, then hoarding wealth is holding human cooperation hostage.
In order for an economy to function, currency needs to, you know, be current. If you lock up current in a capacitor, it’s only potential energy, and it can leach away to nothing. Kinetic energy is what makes things actually happen.
I do agree with you on the dangers of centralized planning. But it’s a necessary evil. Indeed, there could be no wealth to hoard without centralized authority, because it is that authority that gives wealth (in its modern form, fiat currency) its value. Unless you want to go back to warlords, rape, pillage, slavery? Surely the leopards would never eat my face?
At the very least, you need to pay the devil his due in terms of the military that maintain the reality of the nation’s existence and soft power, in order for that fiat currency, economy, and way of life to even function at all. Not to mention all the other agencies that afford our modern quality of life.
That’s not the same as a feudal lord extracting his tribute because we elect the leaders that serve us and place limits on their occupation in the seat of power, as much as it would seem that some people want to do away with that system.
UltraSane 2 hours ago [-]
Having children inherit the wealth and privilege of their parents is how you get aristocracies and they suck for everyone who isn't an aristocrat which is like 99.9% of the population.
pembrook 1 hours ago [-]
Ironically, aristocracy has more in common with the communist theories in this thread than it does with capitalists giving their kids inheritance. Both communist seizing of assets and aristocratic control of them are about centralized control as opposed to markets which lead to competitive decentralized control.
There’s no market economy on earth with 100% wealth confiscation above any threshold (as being suggested here). Might be wise to infer why that is.
ikrenji 10 hours ago [-]
how are you personally benefiting from the billionaires billions? trickle down is a fairy tale ~ always was.
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
Cthulhu_ 19 hours ago [-]
These kinds of vague rumours ("they have evidence" is weasel words) are used to legitimize the development of invasive programs (and software) that profile people; see for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand... that affected tens of thousands of people (causing children to be removed from their parents, divorces, suicides, etc), mostly justified because of a small group of people defrauding the benefits scheme. The total cost of setting this right is in the billions and increasing, many times more than whatever they saved on fraud.
They haven't had time to do any form of investigation. If they have evidence, it's some existing report from the government already looking into it.
But remember he's saying he wants to shut everything down. He's not planning to look into it, because he just wants to stop all payments of any kind.
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
Then they should take it to court, yknow, like one does with evidence in countries that have rule of law.
UniverseHacker 12 hours ago [-]
Are you kidding me? How could you simply take that at face value?
reaperducer 20 hours ago [-]
they have evidence that there is fraud rings of people outside the US posing as citizens and collecting medicare and other welfare.
They'll release that evidence right about the same time they release all the "evidence" that Giuliani had about election fraud. Which they've promised to release hundreds of times before. But never have. Because it doesn't exist.
Are there people outside the U.S. gaming the system? Sure. Are they "rings" or "gangs" or whatever scary name they're using this week? Based on past performance, I have zero faith we'll see any evidence.
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
> Are they "rings" or "gangs" or whatever scary name they're using this week?
As someone who is very into the "scambaiting" hobby of hunting down identity thieves, phone call scams, etc I would imagine they would look something like these operations you see in India or Russia where you get have an office full of professional thieves calling elderly people and scamming them out of their bank accounts, harvesting data or getting them to sign up for useless subscriptions. In 2023 alone there was $43 billion lost from identity theft. There was $200 billion in fraud from the various covid hardship assistance programs. These programs are huuuge and they have ballooned beyond what is logical in the past few years. Even democrats talk frequently about medicare fraud.
anomaly_ 17 hours ago [-]
Without commenting on this specific situation, you're very naive to think government/regulatory policies are not exploited in systematic ways by rings/gangs. Have a look at cum-ex dividend fraud in Germany, GST refunds on gold in Australia, carousel/missing trader VAT fraud in the EU, ETS carbon credit fraud in the EU, etc. All multi to tens of billion dollar frauds that were systematically exploited by rings/gangs.
acdha 16 hours ago [-]
Yes, there’s always fraud but 40% of nearly a trillion dollars a year is an incredibly high number - like the entire Nigerian GDP! It’s simply not possible for that to be happening with a regularly audited public service which routinely finds and successfully prosecutes much smaller fraud operations. That kind of effort would involve hundreds or thousands of people and one of them would slip up.
This is a classic misdirection: fixing Medicare means dealing with the world-record inefficiency of the American healthcare system and paying a little more in taxes. They can’t say that because it’s unpopular with the rich donor class, and if they say services will be cut it’ll be very unpopular with their elderly base, so instead they point to something everyone hates and pretend that it’s big enough to solve the fundamental mismatch.
drawkward 15 hours ago [-]
Then take it to fucking court. Thats what you do in a country of rule of fucking law.
Hey hey hey, let's not let facts get in the way of a good pretext.
indoordin0saur 3 hours ago [-]
It is what I'm saying
bongodongobob 17 hours ago [-]
I also heard tell about underpants gnomes that steal your underpants at night. A lot of people are saying it. Could be anywhere from 1 million to 10 million pairs per year, nobody knows, but we're looking into it.
smrtinsert 16 hours ago [-]
This is an attack on the government without a legal basis. Evidence can be submitted and process can be followed, he and his team are doing neither are opening themselves up to severe legal consequences. They should research Michael Cohen and Giuliani.
These people have our information, right now, in some drive in their backpack. This will be a scandal for years to come if the nation survives this.
kelnos 18 hours ago [-]
If they have evidence, show us. I'm not inclined to take anything Musk or Trump says on faith.
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
Musk is a known liar and you shouldn't believe anything he says.
ctrlp 12 hours ago [-]
Have to take out the enemy machine gun nests first before you take the citadel. Goodbye USAID/CIA.
liontwist 11 hours ago [-]
It’s week 2. I think they will have time to go after those big orgs.
But also you’re missing an important theme of the administration. Foreign aid doesn’t go to Americans. Social security and Medicare do. Trump didn’t run a tea party platform.
andyjohnson0 7 hours ago [-]
In pondering the mindset of these people, I was reminded of a very different submission on hn yesterday [1]. Quote:
"Avoid, at all costs, arriving at a scenario where the ground-up rewrite starts to look attractive"
Seems to me that in their narrow, reckless arrogance they're doing something similar to the mechanisms of government. This is all broken and people who built it were idiots. Lets just scrap it and built it again with a modern stack.
Chesterton's fence, metacognitive ability, overconfidence effect, those who do not learn from history, etc.
I think rewrites are popular in part because during rewrite it is possible to drop features, either voluntarily or because of deadlines, while it would probably never fly to drop feature from working, existing implementation.
Also your theory doesn't hold up for cases when you rewrite your own code. I've rewritten my old code hundreds of time because I was "idiot" in a sense that it was unmaintainable with new changed requirements.
Rewrites are sometimes necessary.
silvestrov 7 hours ago [-]
Rewrites of other peoples code/laws also allows you to think "I'm much smarter than they are".
Governance has a lot more "unknown unknowns" than you expect.
7 hours ago [-]
indigo945 7 hours ago [-]
A rewrite enables dropping features including, but not limited to: checks and balances, due process, a government for and by the people, and certain inalienable rights.
And just to make it clear: I am not being facetious, I am very concerned that all of these are under serious attack.
Checks and balances are already broken because of DOGE, because the Department of Justice simply ignored a court order to stop the funding freeze, and because the firing of FBI career employees was probably illegal [1].
Due process is coming under serious threat due to the building of camps in Guantanamo and El Salvador, where detainees will likely have insufficient access to legal counsel.
A government for and by the people will be replaced by fascist "network states", sovereign territorial entities under authoritarian control by a "CEO", i.e. dictator [2]. The goal is to enable ultra-wealthy individuals to freely "exit" democracies, to live and govern without any rules.
Inalienable rights are explicitly under attack by the ultra-libertarians in Musk's circles. Nick Land, one of the main thinkers behind this neo-fascist brand of thought (branding it as "Dark Enlightenment"), quotes Patri Friedman, who runs Pronomos Capital, the corporation that builds these network states for Peter Thiel and others:
> Patri Friedman remarks: “we think that free exit is so important that we’ve called it the only Universal Human Right.” [3]
Id est, building a privately-owned, corporate-controlled, dictatorial "network state", which is exactly what "free exit" means, justifies abolishing all human rights.
The worst thing is that this all sounds like an insane conspiracy theory, but this is operating completely in the open. The statements of Peter Thiel, Patri Friedman and others are freely available, and they make very clear (Peter Thiel):
> Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible. [4]
But sometimes these people aren’t wrong! Microsoft Teams really does suck. And while not all of the federal government is Microsoft Teams, the State department definitely is.
_rm 6 hours ago [-]
A more likely scenario is they're now fully aware how little time they have versus how long things take and how much heal dragging they're going to face every day of it.
So they've decided this time to rampage straight out of the gates and sustain it as long as they can.
This is a key weakness of central planners - the centralization and the slow rate of development of the bureaucracy. It takes far more effort to develop an invasive and parasitic bureaucracy than it does to blow it to pieces.
So this is a natural strategic asymmetry that makes perfect sense to exploit. Enjoy!
rayiner 5 hours ago [-]
Shock and awe.
apawloski 4 hours ago [-]
Using this military metaphor to describe operations against America's own government is absolutely wild to me. It's legitimately shocking to me how extreme people have become over the past ten years.
The size of the federal workforce has not grown in 50 years.
These cuts will make no impact on the federal debt.
DOGE is breaking every federal records law there is with no oversight.
Elon Musk has clear, undeniable conflicts of interest at play here.
But people are celebrating because the federal government is .. slow, relies on the interpretation of complex law and procedure, and I guess is nice to women and minorities.
rayiner 4 hours ago [-]
Executive branch employees coined the term “Resistance” to declare their opposition to the democratically elected president’s agenda in 2017. So the war metaphor seems quite fitting. The shock and awe will stop when the public can be confident that civil servants will work just as hard to implement the agenda of the president regardless of which party wins the election. That is fundamental to our system of democracy.
And the unelected government isn’t nice to us “minorities.” it’s full of ideologues who categorize us into meaningless groups like “Hispanic” and “Asian,” fund random NGOs that we have never heard of that purport to speak for us, and want to implement a system of racial preferences in gerrymandering. I’d love to see how many grants went to “Asian” organizations that promote the idea that “AAPI hate” is more of a problem than rising crime or affirmative action.
apawloski 3 hours ago [-]
What I'm reading then is that it's not about actually about workforce spending or federal debt at all. That's sort of what I expected.
Curious if you have thoughts on Elon Musk's conflicts of interest? Both as a large federal contractor, and as someone with business dependence on China. Also the breaking of federal records laws (e.g. using signal and not retaining any other records).
rayiner 3 hours ago [-]
It is about spending and trust over spending. I was skeptical Elon was going to find meaningful cuts. But the again I thought USAID was spending $50 billion on things like vaccines for kids in Bangladesh. Then I find out that it’s funding anti-Trump groups like Kristol’s (https://x.com/DataRepublican/status/1886647920566636637) and left-wing government destabilization abroad. So now I want Elon’s nerds to trace every payment and find out how much USAID money went to “democracy” NGOs to do stuff like encourage the recent overthrow of the government in Bangladesh.
The narrative emerging here is that the same permanent-government gremlins that we always knew bankrolled efforts to destabilize the rest of the world are perfectly okay with turning those same tactics inward if the wrong candidate wins the election. If we can put these people out of business and find even $25 billion a year in the process it will be worth it.
I don’t care about Elon’s conflicts. Worst thing from that is we get a giant EV credit next year. I’m much more worried about the conflict from federal employees who overwhelmingly support one party funneling federal money to aligned NGOs.
apawloski 2 hours ago [-]
This is the part that I'm so surprised about. It turns out that people don't actually care about the law when it's inconvenient. And it turns out that people are willing to accept and support crazy things: conflicted/unqualified leaders, the sacrifice of American influence and stability, the alienation of our allies, the purposeful cost-raising for American consumers. What matters most apparently is the culture war.
It's clear that we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it here -- so you're welcome to the final word if you want it -- but I think the feeling that resonates with me in these conversations is "I don't care about the law or other consequences as long as I get my way." That feels bad to me.
And when people making those points disagree with me on it -- this week it's justification to kill USAID and give treasury control to Musk, next week it will be the destruction of the department of education, soon it will be ignoring the 14th amendment of the constitution -- it's hard to tell if they aren't being honest with me or if they aren't being honest with themselves.
xvector 3 hours ago [-]
I am thrilled that Elon is doing this. Our government doesn't get anything done. Taxes are a fucking scam with how much gets wasted.
Finally someone with a "just ship it" mindset has entered the govt and is getting shit done for the first time in forever.
apawloski 2 hours ago [-]
I brought this on myself for making a political comment on a forum, but I'm curious how much spending you think goes to this. Like of every $1 in taxes you pay - how much do you think goes to USAID (or the entire federal workforce)?
When you see the answer you might question the honesty of the cost-savings argument here.
BolexNOLA 4 hours ago [-]
Maybe sound a little less excited about it lol
fifilura 21 hours ago [-]
Most Scandinavian countries are required to make any communication in public departments (including all coworkers emails) public on request by journalists or anyone interested.
This is to make any doubts regarding e.g USAID public instead of making such drastic measures necessary.
But also make work of an entity such as Doge transparent. They are after all funded by my money (as a taxpayer).
That DOGE is not transparent is because the Musk/Trump administration has moved beyond the rule of law.
reaperducer 20 hours ago [-]
Most Scandinavian countries are required to make any communication in public departments (including all coworkers emails) public on request by journalists or anyone interested.
In the U.S., too. In fact, it was the United States that pioneered this in the modern age.
But it's all happening so quickly that nobody can keep up with it. And the people who are supposed to take care of these things have been fired.
Also bad, when requests are made by legitimate parties, they are being ignored or dismissed by the new regime.
Let what's happening in the U.S. serve as a warning to you that no matter what laws you pass, electing lawless people brings lawlessness. And the law you passed cannot help you against people who don't respect the law.
writebetterc 20 hours ago [-]
> In fact, it was the United States that pioneered this in the modern age.
That's 10 years before the USA declared independence.
reaperducer 19 hours ago [-]
I guess we have different definitions of "modern" age.
writebetterc 19 hours ago [-]
>pioneer something when somebody pioneers something, they are one of the first people to do, discover or use something new.
19 hours ago [-]
Clubber 16 hours ago [-]
>In the U.S., too. In fact, it was the United States that pioneered this in the modern age.
The hack in the US is to just label everything "SECRET," and it's excluded from FOIA.
rahimnathwani 16 hours ago [-]
In the U.S., too. In fact, it was the United States that pioneered this in the modern age.
In practice, at least one San Francisco (city/county-level) department and at least one California (state-level) department deliberately makes it difficult to get responsive records, even though the law requires them to not only provide those records, but help the public identify which records might answer the questions they have.
vkou 20 hours ago [-]
> instead of making such drastic measures necessary.
These drastic measures are neither necessary[1] nor legal (Well, they are a necessary step in carrying out a self-coup...) But there's nobody left to prosecute or enforce the law.
First they came for the judges and made sure that the courts were stacked... And then they could do what they want, because they have the police, the army, and the courts.
[1] It's actually wild how people here are actively arguing for shredding the constitution because the country is carrying a debt. America truly is done.
h197BQcV 21 hours ago [-]
They have interesting pedigrees: Meta, Palantir, Neuralink, xAI, SpaceX, Databricks, Energize AI.
It seems clear where this is going. Data mining and algorithmic (claimed!) efficiency improvements while working on an essential and critical production system.
Since these people claim that "AI" does not need to respect privacy and copyright, perhaps they'll also train a model on this.
Where are the Democrats on all this? There is hardly any opposition. Are they not interrupting their enemy while he is making mistakes? That would be the only explanation.
bee_rider 21 hours ago [-]
Like Democratic elected officials? They lost. They have no power. They don’t control any branch of government.
They have as much ability to pass laws as you or I personally do. They have as much ability to hand down a Supreme Court or direct law enforcement as you or I personally do. None. Where are we? Complaining on social media I guess.
I’m quite frustrated why my elected officials as well but it is kind of hard to blame them when we don’t give them any actual power to wield.
maximilianburke 20 hours ago [-]
Sure, but there's other things they can do. They can all stop trying to achieve bipartisan support on things, as the republicans do when they're in the minority. Senators can withdraw their unanimous consent. They can vote against everything. They can drag a bunch of reporters over to Treasury and start loudly asking questions
It sounds like some are finding a clue, like the ones who stomped down to USAID with reporters in tow today. They need to do more of this.
Just because they can't pass legislation doesn't mean they are out of ideas.
What you can do is write to or call them. Ask them to vote no on every senate confirmation. Ask them to not provide unanimous consent. Ask them to make a scene. Demand answers!
SamBam 18 hours ago [-]
> They can vote against everything.
Have they voted on a single thing yet except the Laken Riley Act? (Which they probably shouldn't have done, but anyway.) This administration is not waiting on Congress to do anything.
But that aside, I agree that they need to start getting back attention. Being absolutely silent except for individuals saying things that are only reported on Bluesky is not enough to be taking back control of attention.
maximilianburke 18 hours ago [-]
> Have they voted on a single thing yet except the Laken Riley Act?
I mean on things like confirmations, but when bills start coming up reps need to go full on toddler mode and say no to everything.
They need to read the Mitch McConnell book on gumming up the works of government and grind everything to a halt until the madness stops.
> But that aside, I agree that they need to start getting back attention. Being absolutely silent except for individuals saying things that are only reported on Bluesky is not enough to be taking back control of attention.
I completely agree. Social media doesn't help anything, unless they're live streaming themselves daring the people obstructing Treasury to arrest them.
This isn't a "business as usual" moment, this is a five-alarm-fire moment.
Propaganda, mostly. Conservatives have gained control of most Media outlets, and have been using them to launder consent. It's incredible that we've given Democrats absolutely no power, they can do literally nothing, and yet they're still somehow to blame for what Republicans are doing.
latency-guy2 11 hours ago [-]
Which ones?
Democrats received more money than Republicans from big tech and media for a very long time, including the most recent presidential election. Are big media stupid for donating more to their enemies than who they purportedly support?
Your other option is admitting that Democrats had previously owned the media and doing precisely the thing you're accusing Conservatives of doing. You definitely cannot claim they did not seeing the checks written out to DNC and other PACs alongside the board seats from previous administrations.
freitasm 21 hours ago [-]
> Where are the Democrats on all this? There is hardly any opposition. Are they not interrupting their enemy while he is making mistakes? That would be the only explanation.
You mean the same Democrats who were not given a majority on neither legislative houses, nor the Presidency?
Some people voted against their best interests. Consequences.
daedrdev 21 hours ago [-]
The democrats have effectively no power. They control neither the house, senate, or presidency, the courts have become more conservative, etc. They can only talk. The filibuster will prevent new laws, but that isn't much when the federal government acts according to the presidency, and the filibuster does not prevent government appointments
dml2135 20 hours ago [-]
And the filibuster is nothing more than a polite restriction that the majority of the senate places on themselves — they are free to remove it if they wish.
cma 20 hours ago [-]
I doubt they will maintain the filibuster
PhunkyPhil 21 hours ago [-]
I guess Elon believes that long wait times for government services is because of an O(n^3) function somewhere...
> Where are the Democrats on all this? There is hardly any opposition
I think because this is so unprecedented the structures to oversee simply don't exist. The article mentions that congress has no mechanisms for oversight, and Elon is moving too quickly in this area for any checks to take place.
lukev 21 hours ago [-]
The courts are just now beginning to order injuctions and restraining orders, for the stuff that happened last week. The process seems to lag by 2-3 business days. So hopefully we'll be seeing a lot more this week.
How the administration responds to those is going to define how this constitutional crisis unfolds. And it is a constitutional crisis: congress unambiguously has the power of the purse, not the executive.
If Trump gets away with this, it isn't clear that Congress has any power at all.
bagels 10 hours ago [-]
The executive is just going to ignore any court orders.
SamBam 18 hours ago [-]
It's utterly wrong to give Elon any benefit of the doubt in terms of his motives right now.
He's helping destroy the Federal government because doing so aligns with his interests as a billionaire.
nomdep 12 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
steve_adams_86 9 hours ago [-]
I think they’re describing what the evidence presents, unfortunately
computerthings 12 hours ago [-]
You can't just prefix any random BS with "you seem to be". No, there is zero indication for that. You're just going "I know you are, but what is Elon?"
bobbylarrybobby 21 hours ago [-]
The democrats were there on Election Day. They were shown the door.
gadders 20 hours ago [-]
They should try coming up with some popular policies and winning elections.
sunshowers 19 hours ago [-]
Policies don't really determine elections in this age -- the only thing that determines them is people's brains being cooked.
SpicyLemonZest 13 hours ago [-]
Policies do a great deal to determine elections - American political parties are more polarized by policy now than they've ever been. It only seems otherwise because there's a lot of people who don't consider opposition to their policy objectives legitimate, and thus diagnose it as cooked-brain syndrome rather than attempting to understand and compromise.
sunshowers 12 hours ago [-]
People's policy preferences are downstream of how cooked their brains are. So it's not really policies that are determining it, it's the fact that their brains are cooked through constant exposure to bad things. If their brains are uncooked through constant exposure to good things, then their policy preferences will also change.
SpicyLemonZest 12 hours ago [-]
Now I'm not sure what we're talking about. If you postulate that brains can be "cooked" and "uncooked" in response to new information, doesn't "cooked" just mean "persuaded"? I definitely agree that my policy preferences would be more dominant if people spent more time ingesting the good arguments and good evidence that convinced me to hold them.
sunshowers 11 hours ago [-]
That's fair -- "cooked" does imply an increase in entropy that can't be reversed. I think it sadly is irreversible in some people, but many others can be brought back (you're already starting to see a backlash to Trump).
Being exposed to the arguments over and over, repeatedly, probably matters more than their quality. That's what I was going for with "cooked", since "persuaded" isn't quite the right word for it.
gadders 9 hours ago [-]
>>I think it sadly is irreversible in some people, but many others can be brought back (you're already starting to see a backlash to Trump).
Where are the people being brought back after voting for Biden or Harris?
chihuahua 19 hours ago [-]
No, they must talk about nothing but identity politics for the next 4 years, surely that is the best way to gain majorities in the Senate and House.
mkoubaa 7 hours ago [-]
That's certainly one way to get a Trump third term
hashishen 20 hours ago [-]
I would look to c-span for some accurate real time reactions from dems
Democrats can oppose, but they don’t have any votes. All 3 branches of government are controlled by Republicans.
So, yeah. I guess we got the government we voted for? And since it’s a democracy, I suppose that means we have exactly the government we deserve?
Maybe it gets better later in the administration? That’s my hope anyway.
arrosenberg 21 hours ago [-]
> I guess we got the government we voted for? And since it’s a democracy, I suppose that means we have exactly the government we deserve?
Well, we voted based on the only two options that were shoved down our throats by various groups of the wealthiest people on the planet. I don't personally think we deserve this, why would we? That said, if we don't do something, it won't get better.
bilbo0s 21 hours ago [-]
we voted based on the only two options that were shoved down our throats by various groups of the wealthiest people on the planet
Well, we should have made a system that didn’t allow the wealthiest people on the planet to do that.
Not trying to be flip, I’m just trying to point out that it still all comes back to us in the end. We just have to hope for the best at this point. Buyer’s remorse is not gonna change the actions these people are likely to take.
I do agree with you when you say, something needs to be done. If these pres-vice pres pairings are the best the current system could come up with, then obviously there is a need to add some new aspects to the system that might encourage more competence in the candidates it produces.
gameman144 20 hours ago [-]
> Well, we should have made a system that didn’t allow the wealthiest people on the planet to do that.
This feels correct-ish, but also pretty unrealistic. If you're born into a system where you have to choose between getting slapped and getting stabbed, then obviously the system shouldn't have been made that way -- that doesn't change the fact that it is that way, and you have to act within that system regardless of what ought to be the system instead.
arrosenberg 17 hours ago [-]
I agree to an extent. Most of us are either still young, or just getting our bearings and seeing the problems as adults in the last 10 or so years. I feel comfortable saying that, knowing the demographics of the site. Most of us had little-to-no ability to shape the current situation. Our window has just opened.
spencerflem 17 hours ago [-]
or closed forever
spencerflem 20 hours ago [-]
We didn't make the system, some slavers hundreds of years ago did.
It seems like we won't have to worry about the current system much longer though
philjohn 20 hours ago [-]
No, but enough people voted for the party that put the supreme court justices in place who ruled on citizens united over the years.
Voting isn't a one time thing, it has repercussions that can be felt decades later (see shortages of ATC because of the actions of Reagan in the 80's).
spencerflem 20 hours ago [-]
I don't disagree, but I also don't see how that's a contradiction
krapp 17 hours ago [-]
We had two options, and we chose the greater evil. We absolutely deserve what's coming.
mythrwy 14 hours ago [-]
Increased prosperity, intelligent leadership and lawful order? I'll take it!
tombert 13 hours ago [-]
Ok, so you stalked my comment history so I stalked yours.
What about the Trump administration is "intelligent"? Trump lies about everything. Pointing out other politicians lie isn't a good comeback. Trump lacks all understanding of how tariffs work, he said he was going to "repeal and replace" Obamacare on "day 1" in 2016, only to say he has "concepts of a plan" in 2024, whatever the fuck that means. He rarely has "ideas", he just bitches about stuff and handwaves away everything when pressed for any details.
"Lawful order"? I don't know that that means. I would say that writing a lot of executive orders that go directly against the constitution is literally the opposite of "lawful order", but you're free to disagree.
theonething 8 hours ago [-]
Deporting all these violent illegals has been outstanding in my opinion. He's actually enforcing existing immigration laws.
By way of threats of tariffs, He's gotten Columbia, Mexico and Canada to enact policies in the interests of America.
America gets constantly screwed by other nations because we've allowed great trade imbalances and weak borders. Other nations have been happy to step back and let the US fund the UN, NATO, etc. Historically, we have the lowest tariffs and accept the most illegal immigrants in the world. Trump's changing that and I'm here for it.
Btw, I'm all for legal immigration. I'm one myself. My family escaped a communist country and has experienced life under a leader much more authoritarian that what the Left conjures up about the other side.
tombert 4 hours ago [-]
Deporting violent immigrants is fine. Biden enforced immigration laws too, and when there was a bipartisan immigration reform bill Trump asked the conservatives to block it.
Trying to revoke birthright citizenship is not “enforcing existing law”.
The concessions from Mexico and Canada were already planned from last administration. Moreover, now there are retaliatory tariffs coming from them.
How does a trade imbalance imply that we are “screwed”? Trump repeats that constantly but it doesn’t seem implied to me.
The stuff about NATO is a lot more complicated than you’re making it out to be.
This is my biggest issue with Trump and his supporters, they treat everything as this incredibly reductive, black and white, “simple” issue.
theonething 2 hours ago [-]
> Biden enforced immigration laws too,
No he did not. Biden's first acts were to repeal Trump's stringent immigration orders. After 3 and half years with another election looming and seeing the disaster that caused, all of the sudden, his administration wasn't so hot on open borders anymore. If he enforced immigration laws, we wouldn't have so many people who have illegally entered the country.
> Trying to revoke birthright citizenship is not “enforcing existing law”.
And I never claimed that. But I support an amendment towards that end.
> The concessions from Mexico and Canada were already planned from last administration.
Nope, the 10,000 troops Mexico just agreed to is on top of whatever other things they "promised" to do. And tariffs are off the table for now.
> Moreover, now there are retaliatory tariffs coming from them.
Nope, no tariffs have been enacted on either side at the moment.
> How does a trade imbalance imply that we are “screwed”?
We also have historically the lowest tariff rates in the world. Gee, I wonder if that's related. And then when we raise them to level the playing field, everyone bitches and whines.
> The stuff about NATO is a lot more complicated than you’re making it out to be.
> This is my biggest issue with Trump and his supporters, they treat everything as this incredibly reductive, black and white, “simple” issue.
Pretty hand wavy there.
My issue with liberals is the lack of common sense, e.g. allowing biological men to destroy women in sports, not being willing to define what a woman is, getting mad at Trump for enforcing immigration laws (i.e. not letting people enter the country illegally and kicking out those who do)
tombert 2 hours ago [-]
> No he did not. Biden's first acts were to repeal Trump's stringent immigration orders. After 3 and half years with another election looming and seeing the disaster that caused, all of the sudden, his administration wasn't so hot on open borders anymore. If he enforced immigration laws, we wouldn't have so many people who have illegally entered the country.
Again, a bipartisan immigration reform was on its way to pass through congress until Trump told all the conservatives to kill it.
> And I never claimed that. But I support an amendment towards that end.
So you agree that an executive order ending birthright citizenship is bad?
> We also have historically the lowest tariff rates in the world. Gee, I wonder if that's related.
You still haven't demonstrated how having a trade imbalance implies that we're "being screwed". Trump keeps asserting that, but that doesn't seem obvious to me.
> Pretty hand wavy there.
Sure, I was writing this on my phone and I didn't have time to go into the details of the intricacies of NATO. You're free to look into the details of NATO yourself (you haven't), and if you do you'll likely understand why saying that the US is being screwed by paying more for NATO doesn't make sense.
> My issue with liberals is the lack of common sense,
That's because "common sense" doesn't actually mean anything. What do you think that "common sense" means? Your "gut feeling"?
"Common sense" is a phrase used by pseudo-intellectuals who want to reduce everything into pithy one-liners and ignore the fact that the world is actually pretty complicated, and your "common sense" is often wrong. It's not exclusive to conservatives, but it does seem to be a phrase that's extremely popular with them.
I reject the notion that immigration, NATO, biological gender, and pretty much any federal policy can be easily explained with "common sense". But what do I know, I'm just a liberal who doesn't have any I guess.
> Nope, the 10,000 troops Mexico just agreed to is on top of whatever other things they "promised" to do. And tariffs are off the table for now.
You're right, I looked it up, though what I should point out is that Biden was able to get Mexico to send troops without starting a trade war. It's not clear to me that this required the threat of a trade war.
arunabha 14 hours ago [-]
I guess time will tell if you're right. I hope you're right, because if not, we are in for very dark times.
rtkwe 21 hours ago [-]
The filibuster in the Senate is powerful but it basically only blocks new laws from going in you can't really touch all the things Trump is doing via EO through Congressional obstruction the main avenue for blocking that is through the courts which ultimately have limited enforcement power.
20 hours ago [-]
rsoto2 12 hours ago [-]
The democrats are busy trying to squeeze more AIPAC money for when they get massively primaried for backing a genocide. No, i'm not joking the house minority leader gave a speech on israel's success in gaza this week
jacobjjacob 21 hours ago [-]
Maybe the strategy is to let it play out until there is enough of a case that the other branches can’t look away? Let Elon show himself out by inevitably crossing Trump and going the way of so many other advisors?
energy123 19 hours ago [-]
> * Rep. Jamie Raskin (D-MD) “Elon Musk, you may have illegally seized power over the financial payments systems of the Treasury, but you don't control the money of the American people. The US Congress does that under Article 1 of the Constitution ... we don't have a fourth branch of government called 'Elon Musk”
> * Rep. Chris Murphy (D-CT) “This is a constitutional crisis that we are in today. Let’s call it what it is.” -And- "Let's not pull any punches about why this is happening. Elon Musk makes billions off of his business with China. And China is cheering at this action today. There is no question that the billionaire class trying to take over our govt right now is doing it based on self-interest."
> * Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-VA) "It is a matter for Congress to deal with, not an unelected billionaire oligarchy named Elon Musk. And Elon, if you want to run USAID, get nominated by Trump and go to the Senate and good luck in getting confirmed."
> * Rep. Van Hollen (D-MD) “We asked to enter the Aid building, really on behalf of the American people, but to talk to Aid employees, because … there’s been a gag order imposed on Aid employees. So we wanted to learn first-hand what’s happening. We were denied entry based on the order that they received from Elon Musk and Doge, which just goes to show that this was an illegal power grab by someone who contributed $267bn to the Trump effort in these elections.”
Estimated crowd of 100 protesters (reported). Other attendees and speeches made by Congressmen Beyer, Raskin, Connolly, Omar, Olzewski, Senator Van Hollen (seems like more maybe there not much coverage to confirm)
FactolSarin 20 hours ago [-]
> Where are the Democrats on all this? There is hardly any opposition. Are they not interrupting their enemy while he is making mistakes? That would be the only explanation.
This is the kind of thing that someone who's on TikTok a lot says. The line being fed to people by the Chinese government to make the Democrats look bad as well. But the truth is the Democrats have no power. None. They can't do anything to stop this. Elizabeth Warren and AOC have just as much power as I do to stop Elon Musk and Donald Trump.
xmprt 21 hours ago [-]
Democrats have bigger fish to fry and DOGE isn't a real department so it doesn't have a whole lot of authority to do things on its own. It can only advise the government so in the end, until an executive order is signed or some other action is taken, there's nothing to be done.
affinepplan 21 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure what could possibly be a bigger fish right now. This is, quite literally, the dismantling of our entire government and its public services unfolding before our eyes.
theonething 8 hours ago [-]
> quite literally, the dismantling of our entire government
So the three branches of government are being dismantled? There won't be anymore Congress or Supreme Court?
It's really hard to take hysterical comments like this seriously.
> I try to keep emotion out of this newsletter. I have always tried to write Notes on the Crises in a calm, detached tone so that the information I highlight shines through. However, I must be honest with readers: I’m absolutely terrified. When I first read the Washington Post’s reporting I subsequently had a panic attack. I am not subject to those. I didn’t have one during the start of Covid-19 when I started writing about the full health, economic, and political consequences in March 2020 and knew before many, many people that millions would die. Nor at any time subsequently did I have one. Even as someone who has spent an unusual amount of time thinking about the Treasury’s internal payments system for a person who has never been in government, I find grasping the full implications of Elon Musk and his apparatchiks reaching into and trying to exert full control over the Treasury’s payment system mind-boggling.
> There is nothing more important on the entire planet than getting Elon Musk and DOGE out of the Bureau of the Fiscal Service and allowing career civil service employees to run the Treasury’s internal payments system without capricious and self-serving interference from billionaires and their allies. This effort must fail if we are to safeguard any semblance of due process and lawfulness in the executive branch. A vague anonymous promise that DOGE only has “read only” access is not enough. They need to be rooted out so that we can return to the slower moving, less dangerous, “five alarm fire” constitutional crisis we were having as of Friday morning.
XajniN 18 hours ago [-]
He who dares wins
computerthings 18 hours ago [-]
What's the "win" here?
XajniN 17 hours ago [-]
Same as you, I have no idea what’s going to happen. But something will, and it might be good. It might be bad as well, but at least the news will be interesting.
computerthings 17 hours ago [-]
Same as me? Speak for yourself, I don't care about what might or might not happen, to avoid honestly dealing with what is happening. That they started doing this on a Friday night should tell you they know what they're doing, that is, that it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. That it "might be bad".
> It might be bad as well, but at least the news will be interesting.
For those who read nothing about the first half of the 20th century, sure. For them this is surely "interesting". But since you wouldn't like your harm to be someone else's entertainment either, that's not an argument for anything.
XajniN 15 hours ago [-]
Who is being harmed?
computerthings 14 hours ago [-]
In context, that question would not about the present, but the future:
> It might be bad as well, but at least the news will be interesting.
Of course this doesn't mean "this might suck for me, but at least it will be interesting news for others". Why pretend otherwise?
> Approximately 20 members of Elon Musk’s staff have begun working within the Education Department. They have gained access to multiple sensitive internal systems, including a financial aid dataset containing the personal information of millions of students enrolled in the federal student aid program.
You don't receive such aid, correct? So why care. Just a bunch of dudes soaking up highly sensitive information to do whatever with.
Trump spoke plenty of times of his desire of purging all sorts of things including the "deep state". It's amazing to me that all it takes is to tack on some vague claims about "efficiency" from a guy who lies like a child about the dumbest things, for some Americans to say "but what IF it saves a bit of money?" and just ignore the whole "using a very flimsy excuse to purge political opposition" thing.
9283409232 21 hours ago [-]
You have no real handle on the scale of damage being done and DOGE is a real department as it was merged into the US Digital Service through executive order.
kelnos 18 hours ago [-]
Who is running USDS, though? If it's now Musk, doesn't that require Senate confirmation?
9283409232 17 hours ago [-]
You would think so but the legality of it all is very disputed.
SpicyLemonZest 12 hours ago [-]
No, USDS is an organization within the President's executive staff.
The constitutional requirement is that "Officers of the United States" need Senate confirmation unless Congress has provided otherwise. The precise contours of this have never been super well defined, but it doesn't sound like Musk is exercising sovereign power under his own authority, at least not yet.
mrkeen 20 hours ago [-]
Democrats don't have a frypan.
21 hours ago [-]
troelsSteegin 2 days ago [-]
https://doge.gov does not say anything about what the DOGE plan is, and https://www.usds.gov/ is not apparently up to date wrt DOGE. Is there something other than the Executive Order [0] that lays out concretely what DOGE intends to do? This group of engineers is doubtless skilled, but I don't seem them as the decision makers and planners here.
Sorry, you have been blocked
You are unable to access doge.gov
Feels like the Twitter transition again.
Hey remember when there was concern that he might not have time to effectively run Tesla and SpaceX. And then Twitter. And 12 kids. Or popping ketamine and playing Diablo 4 all night.
I guess he's got time to run the country too.
Phelinofist 10 hours ago [-]
I'm also blocked. Is it some geo block perhaps? I'm from Germany
mkoryak 21 hours ago [-]
Nice, the $ logo is a 22.5kb 375x372 avif file resized to 48x48. That is efficient!
zelphirkalt 20 hours ago [-]
Only top engineers at work there. Pahhaha!
ahazred8ta 2 days ago [-]
We went through something similar in the 1960s with the Whiz Kids, young college graduates from the RAND corporation with no experience in government or the military. 'But you have to obey us because we're so much smarter than you.'https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiz_Kids_(Department_of_Defen...
LastTrain 2 days ago [-]
That wasn't even remotely similar to what is happening now.
KerrAvon 22 hours ago [-]
The Whiz Kids, for all their flaws, were duly and lawfully appointed. It wasn't this.
2 days ago [-]
kelnos 21 hours ago [-]
Of course not. Getting all of this done requires overwhelming amounts of surprise. Trump signing a flood of executive orders is a part of this: it takes time to figure out what's going on with each one, and how to combat it. And in that time, the damage can already be done.
Musk and his coup team aren't really accountable to anyone but Trump, and have no direct legal authority. The way that they get things done is by threatening and steamrolling people, and gaining control of important functions (like the ability to put people on leave or fire them). All of this requires some amount of secrecy and chaos in order to pull off. If they were posting detailed plans on their website, it would make those plans harder to execute.
Nasrudith 20 hours ago [-]
Didn't they already do exactly that with Project 2025?
1 days ago [-]
ck2 2 days ago [-]
Are they skilled? Or just arrogant and drunk on power?
Some of them most certainly could not pass US security clearance.
the plan is more specifically this right wing crypto idea called "the network state" - using technological means to bring down the Democratic state and replace it with a crypto-based oligarchy that serves big tech interests only:
See perhaps "The bro-ligarchs have a vision for the new Trump term":
> All of these men see themselves as the heroes or protagonists in their own sci-fi saga. And a key part of being a “technological superman” — or ubermensch, as the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche would say — is that you’re above the law. Common-sense morality doesn’t apply to you because you’re a superior being on a superior mission. Thiel, it should be noted, is a big Nietzsche fan, though his is an extremely selective reading of the philosopher’s work.
> The ubermensch ideology helps explain the broligarchs’ disturbing gender politics. “The ‘bro’ part of broligarch is not incidental to this — it’s built on this idea that not only are these guys superior, they are superior because they’re guys,” Harrington said.
[…]
> The so-called network state is “a fancy name for tech authoritarianism,” journalist Gil Duran, who has spent the past year reporting on these building projects, told me. “The idea is to build power over the long term by controlling money, politics, technology, and land.”
here's Y Combinator CEO Garry Tan on X: "Whoever made the original graphic (of these kids that Musk told to hack into the machines) doesn’t understand the scale and speed of smart high IQ people who can program, and what they can do in a moment when intelligence now on infinite tap using LLMs"
as though "dont worry everyone, these kids are really good coders!" has anything to do with it
the tech oligarchs know nothing about wisdom, integrity, rule of law, it's all a big joke beneath their superior brains
sebmellen 18 hours ago [-]
It’s hilarious, I’ve never interacted with Garry Tan at all, my profile is as apolitical as you can get, and yet I’m blocked from him on X and on BlueSky.
I don’t know how any of these people can take themselves this seriously. If Claude et al. will be guiding national budget policy we’re in for interesting times…
zzzeek 17 hours ago [-]
yes he actually blocked me the other day on Bluesky as well, however I seem to be unblocked, so I edited my message to not mention that part.
h197BQcV 21 hours ago [-]
That is why they only take from other people (music, PDFs, code, literature, papers) without ever creating anything themselves.
Musk is an exception in that he at least popularized and scaled production of the original Tesla inventors from whom he bought the company. SpaceX seems to be run by Gwynne Shotwell.
heurist 12 hours ago [-]
Hah. I'm a pretty good coder and have been accelerated with AI, but it's definitely not ready to make me capable of redesigning the US federal government.
steve_adams_86 9 hours ago [-]
There is a real irony to how clueless he is about the complexity and vast sets of requirements these systems have. High IQs and programming are cool and all, but these systems are bigger than these kids.
Cornbilly 20 hours ago [-]
These tech goofs trying to convince “the plebs” that they’re wizards that can cast magic.
It’d be more funny if people didn’t actually believe them.
bilbo0s 21 hours ago [-]
Don’t need rule of law when you have LLMs!
/s
markus_zhang 20 hours ago [-]
Well from a foreigner's perspective, US is finally getting its own version of Cultural Revolution.
aqsalose 9 hours ago [-]
I think Third Republic France is a more apt comparison. Political fights about religion and content of education, check. Diverging media landscape aligned with party political identity and ideology, check. Major changes to civil service personnel after consequential elections (1879-1884), check.
kragen 13 hours ago [-]
We'll see.
They were tearing down statues and demanding public self-criticism a few years ago, but that was actually the other side.
Shutting down the universities and firing any professor who isn't politically correct is a couple of years in the future; Trump probably has to replace the accreditation system for the universities first. There isn't currently a mechanism for "sending down" suspected subversive thinkers except for deportation.
The Red Guards haven't been formed yet, though commuting the sentences of the ringleaders of the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys is a start. (You may not be aware of this, but the Red Guards were over 10 million people.)
The news media are still independent, for all that matters.
So are almost all of the police, although Trump has said he wants to bring them under his command.
So I don't think we're likely to see that kind of widespread mass killing in the next two or three years. The organizational infrastructure for doing it the traditional way, using hand tools, can't be built overnight. Vance's ally Anduril might be able to automate the process with AI-powered surveillance drones, but they won't have enough production capacity for at least three years.
ggm 8 hours ago [-]
I don't see the parallels. When are the academics going to be sent to the countryside and where are the self criticism sessions being held?
wyager 20 hours ago [-]
This is perhaps more analogous to an immune reaction to a(n attempted) Cultural Revolution.
markus_zhang 16 hours ago [-]
Or a counter-cultural revolution.
jeltz 15 hours ago [-]
Not really. To an outsider this looks very much like the cultural revolution.
sockp0pp3t 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
spencerflem 20 hours ago [-]
Are you referring to McCarthyism and the red scare?
ljsprague 20 hours ago [-]
In that case they were "persecuting" communists; today they persecute patriots.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
Think more recent than that
spencerflem 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
More recent, but getting warmer.
spencerflem 19 hours ago [-]
Very recent then,
You must be meaning the one the Democrats were part of then-
Classifying any sort of Palestinian aid group as a terrorist organization to strip them of being nonprofits, pressuring schools to expel pro-palestinian protesters?
Or the other one the democrats lead-
When every occupy wall street leader was arrested and the protesters were gassed by the military?
MathMonkeyMan 19 hours ago [-]
This subthread gives me hope that maybe the new management isn't so much worse after all.
spencerflem 19 hours ago [-]
Hey don't get it twisted-
Every president is a villain but while Obama didn't care about the first or fourth amendment, the current admin doesn't seem to care about anything.
20 hours ago [-]
bytematic 20 hours ago [-]
nice account history
dinkumthinkum 15 hours ago [-]
I think the Democrats are the ones that are into struggle sessions and re-education ...
alp1n3_eth 5 hours ago [-]
There's probably going to be a flood of lawsuits, complaints, etc. following this. Cleaning up inefficient gov processes and waste would be good, but this is the completely wrong way to go about it. A single team, made up of extremely young people, some of which haven't even finished college yet, is not qualified in the slightest to do so. This is on top of them having no gov experience, and experience with how things work on the individual teams they're trying to clean out.
Not to mention they've probably already accessed Secret and up levels of classified data without a clearance, which would get any normal gov employee fired and potentially thrown in jail depending on the offense.
I also want to highlight that OPM is the backbone of workers rights for the government. Most skilled positions working directly for the gov are already underpaid. OPM was one of the few pros they had to offer; robust worker rights that are required across the fed.
failuser 3 hours ago [-]
Lawsuits take time, the authoritarian takeover of the government is completed in days.
user32489318 21 hours ago [-]
how is someone’s age relevant? Is a 55 y.o. Software engineer who spent 20 years in a bureaucratic wheel any better than a bright 20yo mind? They both suck in a different way! Writing an entire article with ageism as a center piece is truly pinnacle of American journalism
kelnos 21 hours ago [-]
I find it hard to believe that any 19-22 year old would have the appropriate level of experience to handle this responsibility.
Sure, a 55 year old also may not have the appropriate responsibility, but at least it's reasonable to expect that they could.
BurningFrog 20 hours ago [-]
Pretty sure these whiz kids engineers are writing software to analyze things like where all the money goes.
Decisions will ultimately be made and implemented by the appropriate authorities, of course.
kdmtctl 19 hours ago [-]
Kids tend to miss a reasonable doubt and tend to hate sincerely. This why they are good in rapid cutting regardless of consequences. Any amount of brilliance will not compensate even 10 years of experience.
fastball 14 hours ago [-]
> Kids tend to miss a reasonable doubt and tend to hate sincerely
What does this even mean?
ulbu 12 hours ago [-]
that they are more hot-headed and militant in their opinions
hnfong 10 hours ago [-]
A 55 year old learns to keep their hot-headed militant opinions to themselves. But from my experience in the insides they’re no different. And the 55 year old has held those opinions for 40 years and they’re not gonna change.
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
Agree. It seems largely they are just writing code to make sense of the enormous amount of data and unravel the tangled mess that is the US federal budget.
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
Right, 5 guys are gonna untangle what you allege is generations of tangled mess.
Got it.
kccoder 13 hours ago [-]
How do you know that they are largely writing code? Is that because the appropriate oversight has indicated as such? What visibility do any of us have to what they are doing? And why should we trust any result they produce?
The lack of critical thinking in this entire comment section is breathtaking?
BurningFrog 2 hours ago [-]
Why would you hire top software engineers to do anything else than build software systems?
14 minutes ago [-]
kelnos 17 hours ago [-]
Appropriate authorities? I have little faith in that at this point.
insane_dreamer 17 hours ago [-]
I think that’s a bit of a naive take.
hintymad 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
enragedcacti 18 hours ago [-]
George Washington led a revolution at 44 years old, and those guys were 32, 36, 31, and 29 when the constitution was drafted and the federalist papers were written. I guess the upside from the comparison could be that 11 years from now these kids might realize how badly they fucked up the federal government and try again with a more balanced approach.
hintymad 17 hours ago [-]
Good point. I didn't mean that the founding fathers solely led the revolution, but that being "founding fathers" meant that they led significant part of the revolution. For instance, Hamilton was a chief staff aide to Washington, and Madison was in some state's legislature. Of course, they may not qualify as "leading" at that time, but at least they were participating, right? And that is similar to those 19-year olds in DOGE: they are employees in DOGE, and they are led by someone more senior.
arp242 17 hours ago [-]
You are of course conveniently leaving out all the people who were much older. Washington was 44, Jefferson 33, Adams 41, Hancock 39, Franklin 70, and many more. Those were just the top ones I could think of. And a quick click-through on the Wikipedia article shows that people under 30 were the exception, not the rule.
Your post is just a lie. A lie by omission.
hintymad 17 hours ago [-]
Why is it a lie? Isn’t it obvious that some people were older and where the kids' superiors? And at least the younger ones were still our founding fathers, while the 19-year olds in doge are employees. Isn’t the entire cabinet of Trump much older than these 19-year old? Aren’t Musk and his lieutenants older than the 19-year olds? We’re talking about qualification for participating a job, not solely being responsible for it, no? If anything, I offered a stronger argument by comparing founding fathers, or political geniuses at their times, to merely some tech whizes under layers of management.
kelnos 17 hours ago [-]
Not comparable. In 1776, kids started working and participating in society in their early teens.
Even Monroe at that time likely had years more of practical life experience than the people working for Musk right now.
On top of that, I would not automatically assume Musk's staff have the skills and talent of the people you mention.
hintymad 17 hours ago [-]
> On top of that, I would not automatically assume Musk's staff have the skills and talent of the people you mention
Me neither. I was arguing the opposite: we should not assume that one does not have experience to the point that it is outrageous, just because that person is young. Such a young age should make us more doubtful, but should not give us complete conviction.
tgv 20 hours ago [-]
19 year olds are much more malleable. They can be fanatic, and follow orders easily. They aren't educated. They have a limited grasp of morality, and can't oversee the consequences of their actions. They have no other obligation in life than to this holy task.
That's why it's relevant.
kdmtctl 19 hours ago [-]
This is exactly the reason why they were selected.
20 hours ago [-]
fastball 14 hours ago [-]
Somewhat ironic to claim a "limited grasp of morality" and a lack of education when the instutions doing said education have been preaching moral relativism for a while now.
tgv 6 hours ago [-]
If you'd said cultural relativism, yes, some institutions (in particular sociology and the like) did preach that, but moral relativism? Those institutions certainly preached morality.
However, engineering schools have not been affected, AFAIK.
PeeMcGee 21 hours ago [-]
When they're as young as literally 19 years old, then it must be the case that they lack the appropriate experience.
user32489318 20 hours ago [-]
I’m not disagreeing with you but let’s ask the question “experience for what”? Is it making a couple of dashboards, extract data from legacy systems into something more queryable, or generating a couple of expense reports? Or will they be making actual significant decisions affecting millions? How likely would that be?
PeeMcGee 20 hours ago [-]
Regardless, they seemingly have access to tons of financial data that they are basing brash decisions on with zero context. That combined with the fact they are reporting to a manchild that is demonstrably stupid as shit when it comes to "improving" such systems (see Twitter and the play by play of his first days there).
It takes tenure to know what sorts of discretion are required when reporting to such an extremely senior "leader", and to not get caught up in the hype of being involved in something.
(edit: added last sentence)
rich_sasha 20 hours ago [-]
With age comes life experience and an appreciation that it's hard to make things better, and breaking them is rarely good.
Similarly, it is easier to convince an impressionable 19yo to do reckless and possibly illegal things.
It doesn't strike me as totally irrelevant.
zelphirkalt 20 hours ago [-]
I think it is more about how Musk needs to surround himself with young easily impressed and gullible minds, because anyone else would probably see through him all day. These young guys are probably afraid to speak out against him, or are sucking it aaaaall up as ordered by Musk. He will have chosen who gets to tag along.
soared 21 hours ago [-]
None of them have seemingly ever held more than 1 full time job. Age is discussed, but experience is clearly lacking. Your argument skips over that entirely.
Buttons840 20 hours ago [-]
The age of one person isn't that relevant, you're right about that. The average age of an entire "agency"[0] is relevant though.
[0]: DOGE may not technically be an "agency", but whatever the case, they have and are acting with power equal to that of an agency.
9283409232 21 hours ago [-]
Experience is an important teacher and a 19 year old doesn't have it.
Sparkle-san 19 hours ago [-]
Because there's a baseline age to have the necessary skills, experience, and cognitive development to be able to accomplish the task.
mrkeen 19 hours ago [-]
20yos with max 2 weeks of experience in the job - given the inauguration date.
alfalfasprout 17 hours ago [-]
Their experience is relevant. If they're being brought into build data analysis systems to make sense of data of various organizations there's zero chance they've worked on a project of that scale let alone do they understand all the gotchas you need to deal with working on a project of that scale.
You're offering a completely false dichotomy here.
TrackerFF 9 hours ago [-]
Let's face this head-on.
Not all 20-year olds are mature. No mater how bright they might be when it comes to topics in STEM. Their minds haven't matured enough, especially the male mind.
They do immature shit because there's prestige dangling in-front of them, or because they've been convinces by Musk et. al. that this is the cause to fight for.
There's a reason organized crime preys on young people. They're malleable, do what they're told, blindly ambitious, and want to please their superiors at all costs.
thom 20 hours ago [-]
I agree. Fascism is fascism whether it’s a teenage Octavian, Agrippa or a groyper. Underestimate them at your peril.
grumple 20 hours ago [-]
Experience - which comes with age - is absolutely critical in all intellectual pursuits, including programming, government, and just about everything else. Experts and lifetime learners learn more each day. A 20 year old simply has not had the time to be exposed to the same breadth or depth of ideas, or to critique them seriously. Younger people are also far more vulnerable to hormonal impulses, manipulation, and more likely to have been exposed to a much more limited world view.
I can’t imagine anyone but insufferably arrogant - and really fucking wrong - young people making an argument to the contrary. Not that there aren’t benefits to youth - being unburdened by complexity, ignorant enough to be especially bold - but these aren’t actually that useful. And we have good evidence to support that; older founders do better, for example: https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/younger-old...
Decoding ancient scrolls has no relevance to government procedures.
vitajex 21 hours ago [-]
What he did to win the scroll competition had to do with data analysis, not ancient history, so of course it could be relevant. But none of us, including the author of the article, knows what they're specifically doing, so it's not possible to say how relevant it is. It's a pity the reporter didn't do some reporting about that, instead of writing a hit piece calling them lackeys.
alfalfasprout 17 hours ago [-]
That's a completely different type of "analysis" and on a completely different scale. The skillsets are not even remotely comparable.
vitajex 10 hours ago [-]
You're more confident about that than I am. I find it easy to imagine how a person who produces the first kind of analysis could be technically useful in analyzing government data. He presumably didn't know anything about ancient scrolls before working on the first thing, so he has a track record of conquering a steep learning curve.
But we don't actually know what they're doing.
fastball 14 hours ago [-]
I'm glad you've done both and are here to weigh in! Perhaps you should join the cause as you are presumably a subject matter expert in both things?
brigandish 16 hours ago [-]
That seems entirely relevant - getting to the bottom of a cryptic and poorly documented puzzle without any help from the contemporaries (in the case of the scrolls, because the are dead, in the case of government employees, because it’s not in their interests).
I write that only half in jest. Maybe less than half.
Xelynega 22 hours ago [-]
Since when did winning competitions require experience optimizing costs across various industries?
I don't think anybody is doubting they're smart, just that they have no experience doing this kind of work and are now being trusted by the highest level of government to do it.
mbesto 21 hours ago [-]
That's impressive! Now how does that experience translate into financial accounting systems?
A SAP FICO consultant in Moldova is better qualified than these young men.
ActionHank 18 hours ago [-]
I mean that’s cool, but not what he will be remembered for.
Imagine being one of those 6 with your name on the list of people that destroyed US democracy.
roboror 21 hours ago [-]
That would be relevant if our governmental budgets were printed on ancient scrolls. What was the point of posting this?
MeetingsBrowser 21 hours ago [-]
I came in first place in my college CTF. Where do I sign up to decide which parts of the government should be shut down?
What evidence do people have that anything damaging is happening? Because these people are assumed to be conservative and not progressive? How is this any different than an internal audit whose work would be kept confidential? Or even a third party vendor who presumably would be covered by confidentiality agreements? The allegations in these comments are completely without evidence and are outright politically biased. All the wired article can say is there are a handful of young presumably conservative engineers doing their job. That about sums up the scandal.
lunarboy 3 hours ago [-]
This has to be a bad faith argument. DOGE was not signed into law by congress as an official executive department, Musk was not officially appointed with a congress hearing and approval.
kccoder 13 hours ago [-]
Nothing about this is normal, goes by standard practices or procedures, and is being led by a capricious man-child who wasn't elected to office, nor confirmed by the senate, with extraordinarily dubious intentions and conflicts of interest, who has brought in a bunch of near-children to clandestinely infiltrate huge swaths of our government, none of which have the appropriate security clearances, training, ... to engage in any of these activities.
Have they explained what they are doing? No. If you ask them, would they tell you? Is there any kind of oversight available? No. As a matter of fact, prior to these actions, Trump dismissed the inspectors general responsible for this oversight, in violation of the law which was passed to prevent him from doing just that, again.
Who in their right mind would assume that everything "above board"?
no matter political affiliation, this should be alarming the level of access these people have been given without security clearances etc.
this is a national security issue.
bagels 9 hours ago [-]
The rule of law is dead. Is that not damaging enough?
ulbu 6 hours ago [-]
laws are not about evidence and punishment. they are just as much, if not less, about preventing the apparition of evidence. oftentimes, evidence means you’re too late.
ulbu 2 hours ago [-]
i meant “not more.”
i very much lack sleep today.
awestroke 7 hours ago [-]
Yeah let's let them continue their coup until we can assess all the consequences and determine whether dismantling the whole country was a good or bad thing
Capricorn2481 12 hours ago [-]
We have his last "audit" of Twitter, where he repeatedly and publicly embarrassed himself with half hearted explanations for his clearly personal firings as he carved the platform into a racist hellhole.
Some of us know people that work for him, confirming he is that boss that will fire anyone giving him bad news on the spot because he wants to push his dumbass unreachable deadlines. And mostly because he thinks it's cool and has reveled in his ability to fire people like any small human would.
We have the evidence of the family, that everything Musk says about his presence in raising his own kids is a lie. He was not around, and seems to only push the narrative because he knows being an absentee father would be unpalatable to the conservatives he's courting.
They're hiring interns to fire people because they're molding their ride or die sycophants. It's completely natural to assume when they're telling us they're being thoughtful, they aren't. That when they say it's for you, it's for them. It always has been. That you choose to stick your head in the sand is your problem.
tomrod 13 hours ago [-]
Thanks Dang for letting this political conversation persist!
msie 9 hours ago [-]
Move fast and break thousands of Chesterton's fences.
__MatrixMan__ 16 hours ago [-]
> Congress has no ability to really intervene and monitor what's happening because these aren't really accountable public officials.
Congress gets to make laws. They can intervene by making a law that allows them to intervene, which is the job we elected them to do. Apparently they prefer getting bossed around instead.
fastball 14 hours ago [-]
The majority of the currently elected Congress supports this – it is part of the mandate for which they were elected.
lunarboy 3 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately, laws have to be signed in by the president
__MatrixMan__ 12 minutes ago [-]
Not with a two-thirds majority--which I realize sounds to the modern ear as politically impossible, but we're going to have to change that if we want to survive as a nation. The whole "living document" aspect of the constitution is a rather important one.
I don't even have much to say about which sorts of decisions that two thirds should make--that's their job--I'd just like it if they grew a spine and started making some.
mldqj 11 hours ago [-]
They are operating outside of their circle of competence, because they are not working on an engineering problem.
angry_octet 17 hours ago [-]
These are not engineers, they are not software engineers, they are brown shirts.
charlescearl 21 hours ago [-]
Ruth Wilson Gilmore’s In the Shadow of the Shadow State, which discusses the concept of the anti-state state.
Elon is stealing any and all data to train AI. His padawans are AI guys. At least he's going in personally with a crew like a proper heist.
bestest 6 hours ago [-]
It is AI related, but I don't think it's only "train". I believe Musk is a real visionary (villain?), and he's going to replace the whole government apparatus with AI. POTUS included.
greenie_beans 3 hours ago [-]
in the RFPs, they are gonna replace DEI clauses with AI clauses. which reveals what they think about labor and people
iAm25626 19 hours ago [-]
History doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes.
Komsomol/Soviet, Red guards/China.
Ideology fan the flame of youth into fanatic.
Who/what is providing the necessary guardrail?
God speed America. Future belong to the young.
Make good/long term decision.
yongjik 17 hours ago [-]
The similarity with Red Guards is too uncanny to ignore.
I guess we should be thankful that the new Red Guards aren't beating federal employees to death. Yet.
kragen 12 hours ago [-]
The Trump-supporting Red Guards might be the Michigan Militia? Or the marchers at the disastrous "Unite the Right" rally? Those are tiny fringe groups orders of magnitude too weak to carry out a Cultural Revolution. Maybe the 1500 people who got pardoned for the January 6 riot?
You may not be aware of this, but the Red Guards were over 10 million people.
tines 18 hours ago [-]
To the people talking about how "Zelenskyy said that he only got $75 billion of the $175 billion in foreign aid we sent them, where'd that $100 billion go??? That's right, it went into the pockets of the Deep State!" and then deleting their comments:
According to https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine, "It’s important to note that of the $175 billion total, only $106 billion directly aids the government of Ukraine. Most of the remainder is funding various U.S. activities associated with the war in Ukraine, and a small portion supports other affected countries in the region." Of that $106, about $70 billion is weapons, $33 is budget support. So it makes sense that lawmakers would claim that "We sent Ukraine $175 billion!" and Zelenskyy would directly see less than $175.
The the line from Zelenskyy is an attempt to clarify to the world that $X billion in a bill somewhere doesn't equate to $X billion on the ground in Ukraine directly; he's not saying there was some kind of corruption involved and that the money mysteriously disappeared.
matwood 9 hours ago [-]
To relate more to the HN crowd. It's like opening a new project and the initial reaction is everything is terrible. Then as someone understands the project better they see it's not terrible, but the problem is much more complex than they initially understood. Basically classic engineer hubris.
picafrost 21 hours ago [-]
The attributes of young men have always made them convenient to put on the frontlines.
stormfather 3 hours ago [-]
Say what you want, but if we don't drastically cut spending, our way of life will collapse. It would be nice if Congress itself would reign in spending and downsize the government, but everyone knows that has a 0% chance of happening.
This is better hyperinflation or a violent revolution, at least, which is what it avoids for us. Anyone who doesn't see that hasn't done the thought experiment of extrapolating out our spending for a few more decades. It can't continue, period. Period. Our only choice is how to change it and our democracy (congresspuppets controlled by lobbies) fundamentally cannot fix this. Does anyone have a better idea that will actually work?
ModernMech 3 hours ago [-]
I would agree with you if the people slashing spending indiscriminately on things that poor people rely on, also didn't have a history of and weren't currently planning to yet again give the rich and corporations massive tax cuts that have and will balloon the federal deficit.
My idea? Raise taxes. I know, it's radical and literally no one has ever thought of it, but we tried lowering taxes and the deficit goes up. So maybe if we raise taxes the deficit will go down.
stormfather 2 hours ago [-]
Do you see a popular mandate for raising taxes materializing? Do you see Congress enacting that? I don't. Like you said, you're not the first to think of it, but it never happens.
As imperfect as DOGE is, its the only measure I can see actually happening that has a shot at cutting the deficit. I would love to think of another one.
ModernMech 2 hours ago [-]
Yes, I see a popular mandate materializing, absolutely. There are very few but absurdly rich people standing in the way. It's happened in the past, and it will happen in the future.
stormfather 2 hours ago [-]
I am more cynical. Congress is controlled by lobbyists which are controlled by oligarchs. Voters are controlled by the media which is controlled by oligarchs. I don't see us raising taxes significantly. Wishful thinking.
I also think we should try to cut spending BEFORE raising taxes. What seems better? Less waste and less tax or more waste and more tax? What is better for the economy (for the organization of labor and capital) in the long run? What will attract foreign investment? What will allow accrual of consumer savings?
DOGE is positive because we need a wrecking ball to come in and cut spending because the system is rotten and Congress and the media don't serve the people anymore. They plumb won't do it. I honestly couldn't think of a better personality profile than an idealistic 25 year old engineer who is young enough to hate the government and resent being born 100k in debt as much as I do. Who hates housing prices and health care and the MIC. Someone relentlessly logical whose raison d'entre is optimizing complex systems. At least they'll do something about all of this. Waiting on Congress to do something against the will of their masters is a losing game.
fallingfrog 2 hours ago [-]
I think that we should cut the amount of money going towards superyachts and 10,000 dollar bottles of wine, rather than education, infrastructure and healthcare. Which do you imagine will lead to a healthier economy in the long run?
Because when you cut taxes on the super wealthy, you are effectively taking money away from education and infrastructure and allocating it towards superyachts.
stormfather 2 hours ago [-]
Ok so let's raise taxes on the wealthy. I think that's great and am in total agreement.
How long do you think we should wait for Congress to significantly raise taxes on the rich? How confident are you that will ever happen? Have you seen a graph of the national debt? How long do you think we have to wait? Why oppose cutting spending now? That's not in conflict with raising taxes for the wealthy, both should be done.
fallingfrog 2 hours ago [-]
If we start by cutting services to the public, the tax hikes on the rich are 100% guaranteed to never happen. And then after several years the economy declines, and inequality increases, and tax revenues go down, rinse, repeat and eventually you end up where we are now.
Why is making the public suffer considered fair game but making the super wealthy pay their share politically inconceivable?
stormfather 2 hours ago [-]
Can you give me examples of services you think DOGE will cut that the economy depends on? Genuinely asking. I assume we have different mental models of what will go away.
When I think of spending cuts, I think of: USAID (23B), that rural fiber project (42.5B) and the electric charging stations (7B), stuff like that. I have a hard time imagining that these are net economic positives, but I am sure you have different services in mind that would be worse to cut. My impression is that the government is actually full of waste. I certainly don't feel like the citizens receive 8T of value in return for the taxes we pay.
boplicity 18 hours ago [-]
Remember, if you can vote, vote the next time you can. Convince your friends and neighbors to vote, too. Apathy has real consequences.
yibg 16 hours ago [-]
Would it matter much? It seems like the election is fueled on false narratives and outright lies amplified by social media and technology that many of us here helped to build. Apathy is a real thing but at least close to half the population fully intended to and did vote for their choice of leadership. What can we (generalized we in the tech community) now combat this?
boplicity 4 hours ago [-]
> the election
Which election are you talking about? Because I'm not referring to the election that happens every four years in the States. Every election in-between can, and often does, have major consequences. Or, it could, if enough people made sure of it.
That might actually be related to your question -- what matters is not just one election. If that's the case, then we've already lost.
dontparticipate 14 hours ago [-]
We need to use our skills to build platforms that have both high retention and diffuse ownership that uplifts its users. We need to build a media ecosystem that isn't just a toy. My generation treated social media like it was just an amusement, and didn't notice it slowly turn the flow of information back into AM talk radio until it was too late. There have to be genuine alternatives to Tiktok and X and Instagram that are just as obsessive about UX as the proprietary apps are, but can't be owned.
yibg 12 hours ago [-]
Seems like we need a news 2.0 that isn't something controlled by a couple of entities that can filter and shape narrative at the whim of a political party (either political party). Problem that we don't seem to have a good answer for is, how to make such a thing trust worthy and trusted by the public.
mkoubaa 7 hours ago [-]
I don't know anyone that voted democrat in this election.
If you're looking someone to blame, blame the idiots who engineered the blue ticket, not the voters who couldn't stomach it
rokkamokka 6 hours ago [-]
Blame is generally unproductive. What is productive is realizing wrongs and doing what you can to right them. That said, I was raised that it is the responsibility of a citizen to always vote. If more people had voted, I believe the US would be in a better place.
mychael 14 hours ago [-]
Many of us here voted for exactly this and we are very happy to see all of these changes.
speedgoose 11 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
theonething 9 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
speedgoose 8 hours ago [-]
There is such a thing as a wrong opinion.
I think you will understand eventually.
theonething 8 hours ago [-]
Of course I could be wrong. So could you. You think you're right. I respect that. I think I'm right. I hope you can respect that.
We'll see who's ultimately right in four years.
7 hours ago [-]
dgb23 6 hours ago [-]
> Actually enforcing immigrations laws
Your last administration and congress tried to get a tighter grip on immigration, but it got blocked.
The "concessions" from Canada and Mexico that they made in order to avoid the tariffs were planned since end of last year.
> stop letting countries take advantage of us economically
That's _incredibly_ rich coming from a US citizen.
A country that has been continuously waging war, has been spying on their allies privately and publicly at a massive scale, is living on an ever increasing private and public debt, has been strongarming smaller countries, including allies and including neutral countries, in order to adhere to their economic and legal demands. And is primarily responsible for two of the largest economic crisis in recent history.
Give me a break...
> cut stupid government waste
Cutting waste is always good. That's common sense. Your administration hasn't however proven that they will do that in any meaningful way so far. I would have started with the 100mio in golf outings or the massive "defense" budget.
From here all of this theater looks like regular old corruption.
> cut out the identity politics and DEI wasteful bullshit
I'm not familiar with how "DEI wasteful bullshit" actually manifests. What I'm however familiar with is that this and other acronyms are constantly used to lie, distract and divide. Shortly after recent disasters "DEI" was blamed by your admin before any proper analysis could even be made. That's shameful behavior and not something to be proud of.
theonething 2 hours ago [-]
> Your last administration and congress tried to get a tighter grip on immigration
bullshit. Biden's first acts were to repeal Trump's stringent immigration orders. After 3 and half years with another election looming and seeing the disaster that caused, all of the sudden, his administration wasn't so hot on open borders anymore.
> The "concessions" from Canada and Mexico that they made in order to avoid the tariffs were planned since end of last year.
No they were not. The 10,000 troops to the border is on top of whatever Mexico has already agreed to. And historically, they agree to a lot of things, but don't actually follow through (until forced to the negotiating table)
>> stop letting countries take advantage of us economically
> That's _incredibly_ rich coming from a US citizen.
The US trade imbalance has historically been heavily skewed towards other nations one of the major reasons being we have some of the lowest tariff rates. So when we decide that BS is enough and we'll raise ours like everyone else does, everyone starts whining because we insist on fairness. Same with global security responsibility. Would you like to see a world where the US refused the responsibility to be a deterrence to Russia, China, Iran and their ilk?
< Continuously waging war...
What recent war have we started? And if you think we were responsible for the COVID related economic crisis, think again. (China)
Other nations love to bitch about us, but when it comes time to do things like save Europe from Nazi Germany, counter Russia and China, everyone' happy to let us spend the resources and energy.
> Your administration hasn't however proven that they will do that in any meaningful way so far. I would have started with the 100mio in golf outings or the massive "defense" budget.
It's been two weeks? At this point, you're just being willfully ignorant and biased, which is par for the course for you progressive/liberal types.
> DEI wasteful bullshit" actually manifests
all the government DEI offices and staff that do nothing is a good start.
dgb23 1 hours ago [-]
American households go into massive debt in order to consume/buy way over what they can afford, while real wages are close to stagnant since half a century. Same for the government, astronomical debt but you still cut taxes. The US' fiscally inept behavior is directly responsible for some of the largest financial crisis, including 2008, which lead to a massive wealth transfer from workers to owners.
You have a trade deficit, because you're spending more than you can afford to a degree that you crashed the global economy. And have the audacity to say that your allies are taking advantage of you.
The reason nobody has been calling it out, is because financial institutions are licking their fingers from the massive debt Americans accumulate. But everyone knows that the next crash will happen and everyone knows where it will originate from _again_.
Trump is probably right when he repeatedly said that the US in in decline. But what he's doing is shifting the blame to foreigners instead of pointing the finger to where it hurts.
lunarboy 3 hours ago [-]
It's crazy to me that this is the state of hackernews wow
kuon 7 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
spencerflem 17 hours ago [-]
I wish there was a way to get better options though. A vote for Kamala would have just barely kicked the can down the road
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
Well, we probably wouldnt be in a trade war right now.
kzrdude 10 hours ago [-]
The trade war pales in the long run compared to the power grab by Musk and supporters (accessing the Treasury payment system, shutting down agencies without congressional approval). It's very bad news for American government and democracy, it looks like a coup.
spencerflem 9 hours ago [-]
yeah :c. don't see any way out
i hope they don't end too many species along the way
9 hours ago [-]
spencerflem 16 hours ago [-]
Yeah ik. But the discontent and conditions leading to this sort of moment would still be there at the end of the term was my point
wpm 11 hours ago [-]
They will be with this one too.
None of this shit is going to help the economy.
Eggs are more expensive already and the current admin has admitted they aren’t going to do anything about it.
But the media won’t be hammering on the egg price story, and people won’t feel like it’s as bad.
spencerflem 9 hours ago [-]
im well aware trump is worse and is not solving anything.
Also-
I do wish the gripe wasn't the egg thing - that one in specific is because they're intentionally killing hens to keep us safe from disease. last thing i want is for them to make the egg price go down and everyone gets sick.
when the tarrifs happen we will have plenty of economic disaster to point to.
Also Also-
when the pitch for the two candidates are
"things stay bad"
vs "i promise to change things to make your life better (lie)", it kinda makes sense
i don't agree with trump voters. frankly i hate them. but it's understandable at least
dkdbejwi383 9 hours ago [-]
If Americans won’t vote for centre-right candidates like Harris or Clinton, there’s little hope they will go for any real change.
spencerflem 9 hours ago [-]
I think there's some truth to the idea that they don't go for center right because they promise to do nothing useful for their voters.
My take is its less left/right and more useful/useless. Obama won big because people thought he'd do something.
Trump promised a lot of change and boy he's certainly doing exactly that.
At the end of the day though, I think the time of party politics is over. Whatever Americas gonna be like next its not gonna be this
adastra22 7 hours ago [-]
The left/right divide in American politics is a myth. Clinton and Harris are both establishment candidates. The only establishment candidate to have won a presidential election since George Bush Sr. in 1988 is Biden. And that was only because of Trump's first term, and he was losing his election before bowing out.
The Democratic Party has been putting forward establishment candidates since at least Jimmy Carter, the only exceptions being Bill Clinton and Obama. And notably, they both were, like Trump, a bit of a black swan in party politics.
lostdog 13 hours ago [-]
Politicians look at how people vote to decide how to run and how to govern.
When you vote for Kamala over Trump, you show them your preferences, and they'll run and govern in a more methodical way. The next batch of candidates gets even better.
But Trump winning means the next batch will be even worse.
spencerflem 9 hours ago [-]
1. the message being sent is "you did good enough"
the dems are fighting to give as few boons as possible to the people and as much to their donors and we tell them when the line was crossed.
2. we're not getting another batch lol
sudosysgen 10 hours ago [-]
Kamala did not promise to govern in a methodical way, she promised essentially not to govern, but to keep the system trucking along. The end state of "nothing will fundamentally change" and "I wouldn't have done a single thing differently" is exactly the same as the end state of Trump's accelerationism. It's not clear what other message is going to be sent either way.
lostdog 8 hours ago [-]
> The end state of "nothing will fundamentally change" and "I wouldn't have done a single thing differently" is exactly the same as the end state of Trump's accelerationism.
Pretty wild to suggest that continuing stability, growth, and reindustrialization is the same as tearing everything down.
sudosysgen 4 hours ago [-]
Real wage growth has been negative in the US for the past decades. Stability and growth was there for us, but it wasn't there for the tens of millions in the precariate who were promised stability in the form of a substantial improvement to the welfare net and didn't get it.
From the perspective of tens, if not a hundred million, what that meant is continued decline, increased instability and broken promises, because that's the long term trend they're living and the one they were promised would continue.
barbazoo 18 hours ago [-]
It sounds like you're assuming that if more people had voted, they would have voted for not-Trump. Is there data backing that up? Is there any indication that the result would have been different?
fullshark 17 hours ago [-]
No if anything the data suggests they'd go for trump or it'd be a coin flip
Vote in a democracy. Do things to preserve voting in a democracy.
Vote with your wallet for representative news stories that matter to you and not just indulgent shock material.
Vote with your mind and know what is truly important for you, your happiness, and your loved ones.
failuser 3 hours ago [-]
There will be no new elections. At best we’ll have a Russia-style farce.
yubblegum 15 hours ago [-]
"Apathy"? How about disgust? The choices were Kamala and the Donald. I read that as a 'f.u. either way' from the political class. So yeah, not apathy.
bongodongobob 10 hours ago [-]
Neither side wants to give us affordable healthcare or education. Everything good comes from those two things imo. Voting doesn't matter anymore. Only money. The oligarchs have won (for some time now) and the government is their puppet.
masterclef 17 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
leonewton253 11 hours ago [-]
Im sure as you read this article, they're already dumping TBs of classified documents and storing it on Musk's servers.
sam345 14 hours ago [-]
HN Comments have really deteriorated. Dang is AWOL i guess.
pinkmuffinere 7 hours ago [-]
They really really have deteriorated. I’m not sure that dang’s efforts alone would be enough to hold back the tide though. I worry this is a culture shift :/
nojonestownpls 7 hours ago [-]
Not necessarily a culture shift - assuming you mean IRL culture, not HN culture - but rather a sign of HN's much increased popularity in recent years, outside the thoughtful nerd circle.
pinkmuffinere 7 hours ago [-]
I did mean HN culture, but you make a really good point either way. Maybe I need to find a yet-more-secluded corner, where the rest of the world can’t encroach so easily
th0ma5 34 minutes ago [-]
Nothing to me shouts the absolute failure of AI technology than needing this team and also in some kind of emergency way.
hintymad 19 hours ago [-]
"Bringing in young talent with new skills is literally 'what can be unburdened by what has been' if that's a thing anyone on the left still wants" -- Lulu Cheng Meservey
quantisan 20 hours ago [-]
- Youth-Led Implementation
- Bypassing Traditional Authority Structures
- Loyalty-Based Appointments
- Institutional Disruption
- Limited Oversight
- Information Control
Is anyone surprised? It's not like it was a secret, and a majority of voters still voted this government in.
Maybe most thought it'll be better for inflation and chose to ignore or belittle the crazy. It seems we're getting the crazy now - and not, yet anyway, a single action of inflation.
hansvm 15 hours ago [-]
In Trump's first term he had one of the lowest rates of fulfilling campaign promises of any president. I was caught off-guard by him actually appearing to go through with this.
Amazed at the pushback against an effort to cut waste out of government. There is a ton of it. It's your tax dollars being wasted... let's instead discuss whether things they've identified are keep, toss, or reform and if the wrong call has been made.
a12k 15 hours ago [-]
Setting aside the issue of the public’s PII and PHI in the hands of the most odious individuals, your post is a mischaracterization of what’s going on. They’re not identifying things and creating a report for evaluation; they’re identifying things and using illegal thuggery to shut things they don’t like down. This is illegal and unamerican.
Take8435 14 hours ago [-]
I want to down-vote you, but I seemingly cannot.
This is incredibly dangerous. A select few, having such control over so many millions? Are you nuts?! This is a serious question, as a new member of this community, is this a normal type of comment I can expect on HN?
lunarboy 3 hours ago [-]
I'm almost certain this thread is being targeted by bots. Comments in support are always cookie cutter talking points like "cutting waste and fraud", "what's wrong with executive branch auditing itself", etc
drooby 13 hours ago [-]
You've encountered a rare political thread that the moderators have allowed to stay up.
The physics are different here
crabmusket 13 hours ago [-]
They have made the wrong calls at every step. I posted a link to an article in a sibling comment; have a read of that.
kccoder 13 hours ago [-]
Of course there is. Who says that's what they are trying to do? What specific credentials do these children have that makes them uniquely qualified to handle this task? Why is Elon the appropriate vessel for this activity? The man has more conflicts of interest than nearly anyone else for this task, and has the temperament, self-control, and maturity lesser than those he's hired.
I'm amazed that ANYONE is okay with this nonsense.
bagels 9 hours ago [-]
Yes, there's waste. I'd rather have the waste than a coup.
dontparticipate 15 hours ago [-]
If only there was a group of people that were given the legal rights to make that decision... We could call them like... A Congress and we could like write those processes down. Maybe call that document a Constitution.
emddudley 13 hours ago [-]
You've been fooled.
wetpaws 13 hours ago [-]
[dead]
eutropia 21 hours ago [-]
There are people in this thread claiming that Wired "doxxed" these engineers working for Musk dismantling things they don't understand; however didn't Musk publicly mock individual federal employees on his twitter account, drawing the eyes of millions onto random government functionaries for no other reason than to capriciously taunt them about being fired?
I hope people condemning the former also condemn the latter.
alfalfasprout 17 hours ago [-]
How exactly is this doxxing? When you're backchanneling cabinet-level access to a sizable chunk of the country's personal data (and a nontrivial amount of classified information to boot) you're now essentially operating as a public figure.
This is reporting in the public interest. Nothing they revealed isn't available already as verifiable public information.
johnnyanmac 13 hours ago [-]
It's still doxxing because these are not elected officials.
But then again... these are people outright breaking the law and I sure do want to know who's potentially tampering with my data. If the courts won't do it, someone has to put names and faces to this.
stefap2 12 hours ago [-]
It is legal to make a federal government employee’s name, role, and salary publicly accessible because taxpayer-funded positions fall under the scope of public interest and open-records laws, which promote transparency and accountability in the use of government funds. You can find this information on official databases like the Office of Personnel Management (OPM) website, which routinely publishes data about federal employees’ salaries and positions, as well as on other government websites that provide access to public records.
johnnyanmac 10 hours ago [-]
He's not a public employee though. Well, wasn't when I posted the comment. News moves fast.
I'm still not sure if the kids were actually hired though.
heavyset_go 12 hours ago [-]
> It's still doxxing because these are not elected officials.
They're acting in official capacity. I've lived in towns where the mayor is not elected. They're still public figures.
12 hours ago [-]
shipscode 12 hours ago [-]
What law are they breaking?
johnnyanmac 10 hours ago [-]
IANAL, but at a glance:
U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material
U.S. Code § 371 - Obstructing or Impairing Legitimate Government Activity
Executive Order 14117 of February 28, 2024, “Preventing Access to Americans' Bulk Sensitive Personal Data and United States Government-Related Data by Countries of Concern” (“the Order”) (though this may be rescinded by Trump)
If any of those BS Crypto plans[0] have any weight to them That's a straight out constitutional overstep
Article I, Section 8, Clause 5: "The Congress shall have Power . . . to coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; . . ."
I'm probably only scratching the surface here. I'm not surprised if there's a dozen other laws with legal ledger around this. You don't want any one man messing with the economy.
>Now, as fears emerge Trump’s administration is “dangerously” undermining the U.S. dollar, Musk has confirmed he wants to put the U.S. Treasury on a blockchain, the technology that underpins bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies—including Musk’s pet project dogecoin.
rsoto2 12 hours ago [-]
They're public figures... is it doxxing if I tell everyone the members of One Direction?
unclebucknasty 12 hours ago [-]
>not public officials
They chose this approach. No one is under any obligation to abet and protect them.
nyc_data_geek1 12 hours ago [-]
Elon Musk isn't an elected official either. This shitshow needs to be brought to light, as it is the best disinfectant.
scottoreily 12 hours ago [-]
[dead]
eru 13 hours ago [-]
> This is reporting in the public interest.
This might be true, however...
> Nothing they revealed isn't available already as verifiable public information.
... collating publicly available information and publishing it in one place would still meet my definition of doxxing.
(In this case, the doxxing _might_ be entirely justified and be in the public interest. I don't know.)
tw04 12 hours ago [-]
Whether trump can legally create a whole new government department by executive order is up for debate, but he did it and hired these people into roles within it. By my math they have 0 right to hide from the expected scrutiny of any other public official.
eru 12 hours ago [-]
> By my math they have 0 right to hide from the expected scrutiny of any other public official.
Yes, I explicitly did not challenge that. (Though I have no clue whether I should agree with it, either.)
I challenged the justification of "Nothing they revealed isn't available already as verifiable public information."
Something being a good thing (or true or whatever), doesn't automatically make all arguments in favour of that thing good arguments.
tw04 12 hours ago [-]
What government organization in the US federal government hides the names of their leaders? Can you name one? Even our security agencies make those names publicly known.
eru 10 hours ago [-]
I don't see what that has to do with anything in the discussion so far?
It looks like you can't believe that there are bad arguments for good causes; and instead want to keep arguing that the cause is good, and thus all arguments must be good?
modriano 11 hours ago [-]
Journalists reporting on people abusing government power is good. These people should be deeply scrutinized and shouldn't be able to hide while they destroy the machinery that hundreds of millions of people depend on.
People who work at the highest levels of our government are public figures. It is the job of reporters to report on who they are and what they're up to.
cgannett 20 hours ago [-]
Well if they are working on those systems I think they count then right?
sanderjd 18 hours ago [-]
Yep, that's what I'm saying. They don't get to take these jobs and then complain about being "doxxed". They are public servants now.
liontwist 16 hours ago [-]
Any public servant is open season for doxxing? (Teachers, soldiers, IT feds)
paulgb 15 hours ago [-]
It’s relevant here that “doxxing” here just means “exposing their names and internet posts”, right?
In that case, yes, the OPM already “doxxes” most federal employees, even making their salary data public. It’s seen as a worthwhile tradeoff to give taxpayers transparency into how their money is spent.
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
There is a difference between 5 names in an article and 100k names in a database.
cogman10 14 hours ago [-]
5 names are causing untold damage on the federal government. It isn't "doxxing" that we all know about Fauchi because of COVID.
These aren't low level federal employees doing menial work with the Medicare claims.
qingcharles 14 hours ago [-]
The names of all public employees are public records (unless some exemption to do with say, national security, applies).
LastTrain 13 hours ago [-]
I really hope we can all agree it is an extremely shitty thing to do for the worlds richest person, somehow entrusted to go in and supposedly save the government some money, to publicize random individuals information he stumbles across in the process because he personally doesn't like their job title. Fuck off with whether it is 'legal' or not, that isn't the issue.
14 hours ago [-]
realce 14 hours ago [-]
These 5 people are our employees. We pay them with our tax dollars to assist in delivering services to ourselves and our fellow citizens. Unless secrecy is a distinct function of the service they deliver, I expect their names to be public. Transparency and accountability is owed to the taxpayer, if that's not acceptable to people then they are free to lend their talents to the private sector instead.
matwood 10 hours ago [-]
> These 5 people are our employees.
Part of the problem is we're not sure who is paying them and who ultimately they report to. Are they doing what's best for Musk and his business interests or what's best for the US? Even Altman has called out Musk in a similar fashion.
What's happening now is the exact opposite of transparency and accountability.
sanderjd 15 hours ago [-]
Federal employees working at the level these guys appear to be currently working are always ripe to have their names and photographs in public reporting, yes. This is not "doxxing", it is just reporting on the government. Even if there was an effort to keep this information secret, it would almost certainly be subject to FOIA requests. These aren't spies, they're public servants.
dragonwriter 2 hours ago [-]
Public servants name and position and pay are already generally public; major media have published entire state databases of this.
That's not doxxing, that's accountability of the government to the people. Doxxing is when a person is doing a participant in an online discussion group and information they haven't made public about their real world identity, etc., is made public, it is not when people are performing high level government management functions and their identity is attached to their actions.
andy_xor_andrew 16 hours ago [-]
Essentially yes, because they work for you and me. Why would you expect that people who serve the public could remain unknown to the public ?
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
I actually don’t think 60k workers are public figures to be doxxed. In the same way I do not represent my employer to the media or shareholders.
sanderjd 15 hours ago [-]
Well, you're wrong. The US has a government of by and for its people. It is not the same as your employer.
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
Ok. I look forward to your support when Elon starts tweeting the names of individual employees he wants to cut.
mattnewton 14 hours ago [-]
I think this is a false equivalence. Announcing to the world that you are being fired is different from stating that you work somewhere.
drewbeck 14 hours ago [-]
He’s already done that
liontwist 14 hours ago [-]
And I think that’s bad. This individual thinks it’s holding public servants accountable.
14 hours ago [-]
dghlsakjg 13 hours ago [-]
The issue isn’t whether or not their names are public.
The issue is that Elon Musk is highlighting them specifically in a negative way that will lead to very predictable, very personal, very negative outcomes without any recourse.
sulam 11 hours ago [-]
Is that different when Wired does it?
dghlsakjg 2 hours ago [-]
It depends if you think there's a difference between a self-formed likely illegal group, doing likely illegal things for ideological purposes getting reported on by a reputable news source, and a civil servant who has been doing their assigned job getting picked on personally and publicly by one of the most powerful people in America who owns the media site he is using to attack them.
I see those as different in reality. We can argue that semantically they can get twisted around as the same thing (government employees getting publicly named in a critical way), but that ignores extremely relevant real-world circumstances.
sanderjd 4 hours ago [-]
So, to be clear, I do think "who people in government are and what they do" is appropriately public record.
But yes, there is a difference between media reporting on what high-level government officials are doing and government (or quasi-government) officials singling out low level employees for ridicule. It's the difference between punching up and punching down.
But this is not among the worst things Musk is doing, and if it were a right-wing magazine doing reporting on employees in the federal government rather than someone using their role within the government itself to do it, I might find it distasteful but would have no real qualms about it.
sanderjd 4 hours ago [-]
I mean, I don't want to claim to be an expert on this, but I'm pretty sure who works for the government and what they do is public record.
I do think it's bad to "doxx" people in the sense of sharing their addresses and phone numbers. But that's not what the article we're discussing does.
This article simply strikes me as normal reporting that is no different than "Treasury Secretary Bessent has hired so and so as an undersecretary for such and such, and this is what so and so has done and said in the past". These people seem to be working essentially at that undersecretary level. We always know who such people are, and we should.
knighthack 8 hours ago [-]
You're conflating several things.
- Public figures are public by influence; public servants are employees and can/should have their information revealed when necessary.
- Revelation of information of employees under public pay is not 'doxxing'. Making it seem as if it's 'doxxing' is stretching the definition, like saying someone merely touching you has committed 'violence'. Your intentional use of a more serious concept for a less serious one is misleading.
- Your private employer has no duty to the public, they answer only to the end stakeholders. In contrast, public servants must be accountable and known to the public - it's literally in their name, 'public' and 'servants'. Why you should confuse your status with that of public servants is bewildering.
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
No, just the ones violating the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act like Musk and DOGE employees are doing right now.
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
So if an administrator in a school district allegedly violates policy all their employees are open season? (We are also talking about no trial to determine whether your claims are true)
sanderjd 15 hours ago [-]
It has nothing to do with whether they are doing anything wrong. They're high level federal employees. Hundreds of years before anyone invented the word "doxxing", newspapers would have printed their names and likenesses. They have chosen employment which puts them into the public interest. No more no less.
15 hours ago [-]
15 hours ago [-]
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
What Musk is doing with DOGE is the most unconstitutional power grab any US Citizen has tried is a very long time. The normal rules do not apply anymore.
counters 14 hours ago [-]
Actually, the point is that the normal rules _do_ apply, and the normal rules very much encourage the publication of the names and likenesses of civil servants.
I'm kind of surprised that no one has made the argument that there is something special about these individuals, the work they're doing, or the circumstances of their work. There are, after all, exceptions to the "normal rules." But the fact that no one is making this argument is, at the end of the day, quite telling.
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
> The normal rules do not apply anymore.
Well at least you acknowledge your position is not motivated by law or normal judgment.
UltraSane 14 hours ago [-]
Do I need to remind you that Elon Musk has gained unauthorized and illegal access to the federal payment system? It is very possible he will be arrested for doing this if a democrat gets elected unless Trump pardons him. But then his US citizenship can be revoked.
EDIT: "Wasn’t he authorized by the President, the chief executive?"
The President doesn't have the authority to do that.
epicureanideal 14 hours ago [-]
Wasn’t he authorized by the President, the chief executive?
sanderjd 4 hours ago [-]
In this country, the chief executive does not create the law, but rather has the mandate to see that it is faithfully executed.
ModernMech 13 hours ago [-]
It's an interesting question. The president's powers are supposed to be limited and checked. That was the whole point of the American Revolution.
One of the ways the president is limited is that the he can't authorize people to commit crimes. e.g. he couldn't instruct his AG to open an investigation into his political opponent under false pretenses in order to hurt his electoral chances. If the AG were to do that, it would be a crime. So the question isn't whether the president has authorized Musk to do something, but whether or not the president even has the power to do the thing he delegated.
And what is the power in question? It's control over spending appropriated by Congress. And that's where separation of powers comes in. Congress is supposed to control the purse strings, and the president is supposed to make sure the money is spent on the priorities of the people, taking care of prosecuting fraud and abuse. The point of giving Congress this power is to give the people a mechanism to set their priorities on how their own money is spent. It shouldn't be the case that one guy comes in and then gets to decide how to spend all our money.
But that appears to be what they are trying to do, in claiming that their cuts are all under the guise of reducing fraud and abuse. But really what they're trying to do is do an end-run around Congress. They want all the money, but they don't want to have Congress vote on it, because they don't actually have the votes to implement the agenda they want to, since Congress is so divided. So instead they're just taking the funding they have and allocating it in ways that support only the agenda items they want to see implemented.
thomasjudge 12 hours ago [-]
>>One of the ways the president is limited is that the he can't authorize people to commit crimes. e.g. he couldn't instruct his AG to open an investigation into his political opponent under false pretenses in order to hurt his electoral chances. If the AG were to do that, it would be a crime. So the question isn't whether the president has authorized Musk to do something, but whether or not the president even has the power to do the thing he delegated.
ok, but since the investigative (FBI) and the prosecutorial (US Attorney) apparati are under the control of the executive, if the local USA goes along with Trump and against the law, the remedy is....what exactly?
kemayo 12 hours ago [-]
Impeachment, followed by conviction and removal-from-office, in theory.
In practice this is extremely unlikely because the threshold for the vote in the Senate is high enough that you'd need bipartisan consensus, and the US Constitution wasn't really written expecting the party system to exist.
jart 13 hours ago [-]
The thing that makes revolutions fail or succeed is whether or not they take control of the money. Trump isn't doing that. He appears to just be auditing for fraud and corruption. If he was trying to control the money, then he'd need to march doge into the federal reserve. But he can't because it's not organized under the executive branch. They claim they're not even part of the government.
UltraSane 12 hours ago [-]
" He appears to just be auditing for fraud and corruption."
The constitution gives Congress sole authority to control spending and any payments Musk stops is a extreme violation of the Constitution. I really hope this ends with Musk either in prison for life or with his US citizenship revoked and him deported back to South Africa.
jart 11 hours ago [-]
The way it seems to work is the President makes a budget request and then congress approves it. You can read about it here:
So on page 137 it looks like Biden got congress to approve the executive branch having $86 trillion to spend over the next 10 years.
Trump and Elon want that money. Let them have it. I'd rather see it go towards taking us to Mars rather than whatever Biden was doing.
UltraSane 10 hours ago [-]
If Musk stops any payment that Congress has approved he is breaking the law. and the US Constitution. Considering he is an immigrant he could have his citizenship revoked and be deported.
You still believe the lies that con artist Musk tells you? He isn't ever going to Mars. Tesla is never going to have FSD so good they are willing to take legal liability for accidents the way Waymo does.
10 hours ago [-]
ctrlp 13 hours ago [-]
And yet every president does exactly that. This fantasy of the rule of law is for children. Realpolitik laughs at these debates
sanderjd 3 hours ago [-]
Nah, this is just cynicism.
Two things are true at once:
1. The rule of law is real and important.
2. The rule of law is not a magical thing that enforces itself, and many people seek to undermine it for their own enrichment, so those of us who believe #1 is correct (which is most people in the US) must understand the levers of power and use them to maintain t
it.
Despite the current struggles, I think we have some real advantages in this fight. One of those is actually just capitalism. We have financialized trust in the US government, via the bond market. That trust is not entirely downstream of the rule of law, but it is to a fairly large degree. We have already seen once that an effort by the administration to squelch on its contractual obligations was quickly reversed, which was this basic mechanism at action. The worst things DOGE could do with this (illegal) control over the Treasury would be unworkable for this same reason.
There are still horrible outcomes that aren't subject to this constraint (and in my opinion, we need to reform the pardon power in order to maintain the rule of law moving forward), but it's not true that there are no constraints.
ctrlp 1 hours ago [-]
We added a trillion dollars to the balance sheet a few years back. The USD is not backed by trust, it's backed by power. Power that is enforced through military might and resource control over vassal states like most of Western Europe. If you want to understand how power really works understand that Trudeau just threatened a tariff on maple syrup until one of his wiser advisors pointed out that all Canadian oil pipelines make a pitstop in the good ol' USofA for, checks notes, "refinement". Dunno, sounds important.
Checkmate, Justin.
Meanwhile, in the nursery the rule of law is quietly taking its afternoon nap.
ModernMech 12 hours ago [-]
If every president did exactly this, you wouldn't see the widespread outrage and claims that what the current president is doing is unprecedented.
ctrlp 1 hours ago [-]
If you pay attention to more than what is served up by our media masters then you would know the truth if my claim.
UltraSane 13 hours ago [-]
The power of the purse is the authority of the United States Congress to levy taxes and control government spending. It's a key part of the separation of powers in the Constitution and a check on the executive branch.
What Trump and Musk are doing with DOGE and the federal payment system is in blatant violation of this separation of powers.
nxobject 15 hours ago [-]
Federal salaries are public information.
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
Indeed. One of the highest paid people in my local school district is a librarian who teaches no classes and gets paid 275k. Do you think it would be a good idea to get a wired article published with his name address, and 4 similar teacher profiles?
sanderjd 15 hours ago [-]
Are you suggesting that the article we're discussing is "weird"? Does it list anyone's address? I feel like it just says their names and provides some basic bio info. Seems like pretty normal reporting on an important story at the top levels of the federal government.
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
Yeah I’m not suggesting anything weird either. I just think the community might want to know which teachers are really well paid. They have chosen employment in the public interest. Are you with me?
mint2 14 hours ago [-]
Yo there’s literally articles regularly published on the names and pay of all local city employees in my city with specific call outs to the top paid ones.
While it seems you are implying that is not cool, it’s actually unremarkable and common government transparency.
sanderjd 3 hours ago [-]
Yep. I feel like we should probably be taking more of a "you're one of today's ten thousand!"[0] approach to this thread. I think this person is probably just actually unfamiliar with the history of public interest reporting on government.
Federal pay is already supposed to be public knowledge and is highly regulated based on role https://www.federalpay.org/. Although who knows if that's true anymore. Seems like all precedent is up in the air nowadays
the_arun 14 hours ago [-]
I suspect they read "wired" as "weird".
sanderjd 3 hours ago [-]
I mean, I don't love it because of my political ideology, but it wouldn't strike me as weird if I saw this kind of story in my local paper...
I got all pissed in college when I read a magazine article about how the football coach at the state school I attended was the highest paid state employee that year. There was nothing weird about that article, and I think it's very similar to your hypothetical.
I do, ideologically, think that it's much better for reporters to focus on powerful people near the top, but I don't think it's weird to report on government employees, in general.
spamizbad 12 hours ago [-]
That sounds like a job better suited for your local paper. The scope of national politics is far greater.
But even if Wired did, it still wouldn't be "doxxing", which used to imply publishing not just names but addresses and other PII (like SSNs) for non-public, non-governmental figures.
matwood 9 hours ago [-]
New stories routinely come out about the highest paid people in colleges typically being the head football coaches. The conservative media has been railing on academic administrator salaries for years.
ctrlp 13 hours ago [-]
Wow, I chose the wrong profession. $275k damn.
liontwist 12 hours ago [-]
It’s certainly not typical - he just minmaxed the credentials to get into the top bracket.
Just unfortunate that the resources are going there.
I can look up every single public employee in my area, and find out what they make. It's not hard to find out where they live. It's called government transparency.
matwood 10 hours ago [-]
The hypocrisy of Musk once again in full effect. Anyone who still thinks Musk is out to help anyone but himself, I have a bridge to sell you. It's sitting right next to 'free speech'.
When it comes to these people specifically, they need to be publicly called out. What's happening is unprecedented and possibly illegal. I know most of the press has been bought off or strong-armed to look the other way by the new administration, but at least someone is still doing reporting.
lovich 14 hours ago [-]
>I hope people condemning the former also condemn the latter.
Why? Its ok when our betters engage in such behavior and who could be better than the rich?
When some poors like "journalists" try to do this, they're just upending the system for their own gain. It would really be tolerating corruption if you just tolerated them ripping up our current system of governance just because they preferred a different set of rules. Elections have consequences and its just gauche to ignore the results like this.
epr 14 hours ago [-]
Two wrongs make a right. OK
concordDance 9 hours ago [-]
Anyone have any guesses as to why "Both are quite bad. I expect better from Wired." would be flagged?
Musk was horrid to do that, but it's a different thing.
Cody-99 14 hours ago [-]
Did you seriously just link Asmongold?
MangoCoffee 13 hours ago [-]
is Asmongold wrong? the WhitePeopleTwitter subreddit is now banned for 72 hours.
"This community has been banned
This subreddit has been temporarily banned due to a prevalence of violent content. Inciting and glorifying violence or doxing are against Reddit’s platform-wide Rules. It will reopen in 72 hours, during which Reddit will support moderators and provide resources to keep Reddit a healthy place for discussion and debate."
Musk is committing treason as we speak by gaining illegal access to the US federal payment system. This is the first time anyone has tried to do this in US history and that is because it is EXTREMELY unconstitutional.
dylan604 13 hours ago [-]
there's a whole lot to unpack here, and none of it is good. at the end of the day, you can consider Musk an outside contractor. how exactly is that treason? also, in which part of the constitution does it say anything about the federal payment system? that's not an article I'm familiar
UltraSane 12 hours ago [-]
The power of the purse is the authority of the United States Congress to levy taxes and control government spending. It's a key part of the separation of powers in the Constitution and a check on the executive branch. If Musk actually stops any payment that was authorized by Congress then he is violating the Constitution.
DOGE also has no legitimate need or legal right to access the federal payment system. He is in violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and should be arrested and put on trial along with any other DOGE employee who has accessed the federal payment system.
UltraSane 13 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
eloisius 13 hours ago [-]
Please don’t share with us what Claude has to say. We can all query an LLM ourselves.
UltraSane 12 hours ago [-]
But you wouldn't do so, would you?
plaguuuuuu 12 hours ago [-]
protip for the future: if you need an actual legal opinion do not try to use AI
13 hours ago [-]
enieslobby 12 hours ago [-]
what law is he breaking?
bogomog 12 hours ago [-]
Stopping payments authorized by congress, for one.
speakfreely 12 hours ago [-]
You will need to do some mental gymnastics to find a criminal statute that could be used to prosecute that and it does not appear the US Attorney for DC is at all interested in doing that.
UltraSane 12 hours ago [-]
Musk and DOGE employees could be arrested and tried by the DOJ if a democrat wins the next Presidential election. These are the crimes they have broken.
Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA) - 18 U.S.C. § 1030:
If the employee exceeded authorized access or acted without authorization to manipulate the payment system, they could be charged under the CFAA, which criminalizes unauthorized access to computer systems.
Obstruction of Federal Proceedings or Official Duties - 18 U.S.C. § 1505 or § 1913:
§ 1505: Obstruction of agency proceedings or congressional actions.
§ 1913: Prohibits using appropriated funds to lobby or interfere with government decisions, though applicability may depend on intent.
Interfering with congressionally mandated payments could constitute obstruction of lawful government functions.
Theft or Conversion of Government Funds - 18 U.S.C. § 641:
If the payment was lawfully owed and the employee’s actions deprived the recipient of funds, this could be seen as theft or conversion of government property.
False Statements or Fraud - 18 U.S.C. § 1001:
If the employee falsified records, submitted false information, or lied to justify stopping the payment, they might face charges for making false statements.
Conspiracy - 18 U.S.C. § 371:
If others were involved, conspiracy charges could apply to defraud the U.S. or commit other offenses.
Malfeasance or Misconduct in Office:
While not a specific federal statute, general misconduct or breach of public trust could lead to charges under broader provisions or administrative penalties (e.g., termination, fines).
If the employee exceeded authorized access or acted without authorization to manipulate the payment system, they could be charged under the CFAA, which criminalizes unauthorized access to computer systems.
Obstruction of Federal Proceedings or Official Duties - 18 U.S.C. § 1505 or § 1913:
§ 1505: Obstruction of agency proceedings or congressional actions.
§ 1913: Prohibits using appropriated funds to lobby or interfere with government decisions, though applicability may depend on intent.
Interfering with congressionally mandated payments could constitute obstruction of lawful government functions.
Theft or Conversion of Government Funds - 18 U.S.C. § 641:
If the payment was lawfully owed and the employee’s actions deprived the recipient of funds, this could be seen as theft or conversion of government property.
False Statements or Fraud - 18 U.S.C. § 1001:
If the employee falsified records, submitted false information, or lied to justify stopping the payment, they might face charges for making false statements.
Conspiracy - 18 U.S.C. § 371:
If others were involved, conspiracy charges could apply to defraud the U.S. or commit other offenses.
Malfeasance or Misconduct in Office:
While not a specific federal statute, general misconduct or breach of public trust could lead to charges under broader provisions or administrative penalties (e.g., termination, fines).
ctrlp 12 hours ago [-]
Time to change your handle, "UltraSane"
UltraSane 12 hours ago [-]
Please don't be cryptic. I am definitely saner than Musk right now.
scarab92 14 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
ulbu 14 hours ago [-]
how do you differentiate this from your own rightwards-shifting views?
scarab92 14 hours ago [-]
Widespread defamatory allegations and calls for violence aren’t common everyday life but they are routine on reddit.
Banning users with moderate opinions is not normal in everyday life, but is routine in many subreddits. Including users sharing opinions held by moderate democrats.
hackyhacky 12 hours ago [-]
Have you tried posting a moderate opinion on /r/conservative?
Reddit is not a community, it's a collection of communities. Each may be an echo chamber, but it's an echo chamber in its own way.
scarab92 12 hours ago [-]
It used to be that way, with high diversity of opinions between subreddits.
These days, all the default subs are left leaning, most are far-left leaning, which means most users have a partisan experience. This then impacts the overall makeup of the site’s userbase which cascades this bias through every other subreddit.
Sure, there are a small number of relatively low traffic communities that have held out, but they are now an insignificant proportion of the content on the site.
hackyhacky 12 hours ago [-]
Fortunately, you still have communities like Twitter/X where neo-Nazis can feel at home.
ulbu 14 hours ago [-]
you did not answer the question. did reddit change? or is it you? what’s “moderate”? would you describe yourself “moderate”?
scarab92 13 hours ago [-]
Reddit changed.
It’s a natural artefact of the voting systems it uses for recommending content. These tend to result in echo chambers because political extremism results in more engagement, and thus more extreme users vote more and have a larger influence on what is shown.
This is then amplified by the echo chamber effect, which distills the user base into ever more extreme positions as the moderate users find their opinions outside the evolving fringe of acceptable opinion.
The reason I class it as far-left now, even though I wouldn’t in the past, is two things:
Firstly, it is now plagued with extremist content, including calls to violence, which are tolerated by users and moderates alike.
Secondly, the opinions expressed have a left bias relative to other members of the left. There are plenty of moderate democrats, including people like Obama, who would quickly find themselves banned from many default subreddits for their more moderate tolerant opinions.
Depresst0 14 hours ago [-]
and also moderate Republicans, so don't think the Republicans are all "Holy, Truthful, Angels" of people, because they AREN'T!
fzeroracer 13 hours ago [-]
So what are your thoughts on Trump banning transgender individuals from the military?
ggm 14 hours ago [-]
There is no arbiter for the median set point, as you know. I think the problem latent in both the point you respond to, and your response is the lack of desire amongst us all to agree the position of the left-right needle. It's just much more useful to be able to fling the terms/directions around as a pejorative, than to be particularly factual.
It's a very odd time. The USA is emerging into a combination of a Kleptocracy, a Kakistocracy, Autarky and Technocracy. It's like somebody's dream pivot fractured into every ocracy under the sun.
I don't have to subscribe to a belief in a conspiracy to advantage Russia, to beleive the SITUATION will advantage people who benefit from an unstable US polity.
I also don't have to subscribe to a belief it was "the plan" to believe the super-rich will ride over this wave, and pick the cream off as it floats upward. Thats what they do, all the time. This is just a particularly active milk churn and there's going to be a LOT of cream.
ulbu 13 hours ago [-]
I agree on most parts of your respnse, but I was aiming at precisely at how the commenter I responded to tends to make absolute claims for what, it seems to me, are relative to their position and attempt to instate as more common and common-sense than it really is, and betrays a certain blindness to a simple psychological fact that people usually react more strongly to things that pressure them more (a relative phenomenon) and ascribes to this reaction some political valuation (an absolute).
I myself do not find left-right divide that much useful, at least to describe this melting pot of our time.
ggm 13 hours ago [-]
I enjoyed the question you posed immensely because it goes so strongly to the perceptual bias we bring to the table. I know I look with outrage at how strongly my left wing government has swung right, not for a minute believing I might have got more left wing as I got richer, older, and less exposed to the risks. "Of course I've always been left" I mutter, putting decent french butter on my croissant.
qingcharles 14 hours ago [-]
I've been on Reddit since at least 2007. I've not seen any swing in political views. I think it's just that the sort of people that use Reddit are the sort of people who are typically more left-wing.
I'm just glad we have social networks which are left-wing to bring balance to the system.
terrabiped 14 hours ago [-]
Reddit has been in a state of hysteria for the past couple of weeks. You’re right that the overall leaning hasn’t changed much, but it was never this crazy, even during Trump’s first term.
It’s a nonstop barrage of nazi labels, overblown news, and comments that “hint” at more direct involvement and violence.
It's so weird that I've even started to doubt whether most of those comments are from real people.
qingcharles 8 hours ago [-]
I don't see it as "hysteria," more like passionate, zealous, incensed and outraged.
niceice 2 hours ago [-]
That's an understatement. Death threats aimed at these young DOGE tech nerds flooded Reddit and Bluesky. Reddit even shut down a popular subreddit to stem the tide.
Salgat 14 hours ago [-]
I'm not sure why you're surprised. Reddit has always been left leaning and progressive, and they were making a lot of noise about Trump his first term, especially with the Mueller investigation.
Now you have a huge trade war going on, he keeps threatening the soveriegnty of multiple long time allies, a billionaire has extensive access to government data (the same one that did that nazi salute), along with ICE being ramped up all in the first couple weeks of his term. Our president also ran a crypto scam that made him billions right before his term started. He also keeps joking about running for a third term and is challenging a 150 year constitutional law on birthright citizenship with an executive order. Even you have to admit that this is a lot going on compared to anything we've seen before.
terrabiped 13 hours ago [-]
I think that the issue with what's happening on reddit is that it's hard to know what's real or what's not. I think that there is a lot that this administration could be criticized for but the criticism has to be precise and targeted, such that most of the energy goes to the topics that are important.
A lot of comments and energy were expended there. Everyone talked as if it were the end of NATO and that the U.S. was abandoning Europe. In reality, it was just a 20% reduction in force (which was the first sentence in the linked article).
On the flip side, the trade war with Canada deserved heavy criticism—and luckily, it was well covered (I count that as a win).
From the list you just shared, I don't really have a good sense of the relative severity of each and I think it's because there is no place where these topics could be discussed (even HN isn't immune as you can see from one of the comments below)
scarab92 13 hours ago [-]
If redditors were simply complaining about things like the attempts to stop birthright citizenship, then I would agree that it’s left leaning.
What makes it far-left are the calls for violence all over the place, and the rejection of opinions from more moderate democrats.
When even the hyper sensitive ADL can admit that musk did not do a Nazi salute, but your users cannot, you’ve become a far-left echo chamber.
Salgat 13 hours ago [-]
For some context, the ADL is a pro-israeli organization, which is why they have been praising the current administration recently.
hackyhacky 13 hours ago [-]
Given the circumstances, I think hysteria is the only rational response. I wish the elected opposition party felt as strongly as Reddit does.
terrabiped 12 hours ago [-]
An alternative take on this is that the opposition doesn't really believe that anything extraordinary is happening and hence there is no strong response outside just some press releases.
I personally tried to follow all the news for a week. I tried to read the articles and research what was shared on reddit. Oftentimes my interpretation of these news wasn't nearly as dramatic as what reddit was aligning on. At the end, I figured it's too much work to double check every single piece of news, so I just stopped using reddit for some time.
hackyhacky 12 hours ago [-]
> At the end, I figured it's too much work to double check every single piece of news, so I just stopped using reddit for some time.
Well, remaining uninformed is certainly one way to prevent hysteria.
UltraSane 14 hours ago [-]
I truly despise people who gaslight the way you are right now. Musk did two very blatant Nazi salutes and us right now illegally accessing the US federal payment system. These are unprecedented actions and a strong response to them is hardly "hysteria".
SoftTalker 14 hours ago [-]
Balance? Which mainstream social networks are right wing?
It used to be very libertarian (big on free speech, etc) but has since shifted substantially liberal, including much warmer attitudes towards the use of violence.
So partly orthogonal to the main left-right axis.
scarab92 14 hours ago [-]
> I've not seen any swing in political views
That’s like a frog saying the water isn’t getting warmer.
realce 14 hours ago [-]
So what year was reddit not described as a far-left echo chamber? When was this golden age?
scarab92 14 hours ago [-]
In 2010 Reddit was center-left, with a high degree of variance between subreddits.
Today it is a far-left echo chamber in most large subreddits.
The process of change was gradual. Like all echo chambers it is a result of distillation, with marginal moderate users progressively leaving in response to seeing the shrinking frontier of acceptable discourse.
14 hours ago [-]
Newlaptop 12 hours ago [-]
Early Reddit had a philosophically libertarian majority (or at least, a significant percentage) and a demographic of mostly STEM-oriented, bookish, nerdy dudes from 18-40. Ron Paul was a popular political candidate. "Socially liberal, fiscally conservative" was a common refrain, although in 2008 that usually meant supporting gay marriage and wanting legal marijuana. People were skeptical of big corporations and big government alike, but had genuine belief that technology was changing the status quo in positive ways (remember when Google was a startup and "Don't be evil" felt earnest). The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan were unpopular, but a big chunk of the criticism focused on ways the PATRIOT act invaded individual privacy and the wastefulness of DHS spending. Open source software and filesharing were discussed as philosophical stances and acts of resistance against entrenched powers. Race and gender were rarely discussed as being particularly important.
Writing this made me realize not just how different Reddit was, but also the issues of the time and the ways they were thought of and talked about. It's almost hard to map onto contemporary parties, policies or issues.
ChuckMcM 13 hours ago [-]
I mean "mr free speech absolutist" has already tweeted that anyone complaining about the government would have their account suspended. Kind of on brand for a nazi.
darthrupert 12 hours ago [-]
Suspending an account on a single service has absolutely nothing to do with fascism.
nailer 14 hours ago [-]
There’s a difference between mocking the general function of government employees and specifically calling for violence against individual engineers.
SpicyLemonZest 13 hours ago [-]
These are not "individual engineers". They're government officials with seemingly vast powers which aren't yet fully understood by the public. As the article details, they seem to have the authority to demand access to most if not all of the government's computer systems; we don't yet know which of them have this authority, or what limits there are, or what review processes are in place.
That doesn't mean it's OK to call for violence against them! But Wired isn't doing that. It does mean that news outlets need to report on who they are and what they're doing, even if they fear (even if they know) that third parties might issue death threats.
nailer 2 hours ago [-]
They are individual engineers. They are named individuals, and they are engineers.
bogomog 12 hours ago [-]
Arguably, they aren't government officials, because DOGE isn't a legitimate part of the executive branch.
stefap2 12 hours ago [-]
It's created by renaming U.S. Digital Service that was created in 2014 by President Obama within the Office of Management and Budget. So it's a part of executive branch.
SpicyLemonZest 12 hours ago [-]
I've seen that argument, but I don't understand it. The President has decided that executive agencies should operate according to certain new standards, charged the USDS with enforcing that, and put Musk in charge with a new meme name. Perhaps one or another of those standards is unlawful, but it's hard to see how the entire idea could be. What extra step is required to make DOGE legitimate?
ModernMech 12 hours ago [-]
The president is allowed to set standards for executive agencies. But his job is to faithfully execute the laws, and in doing so, he can't just shut down executive agencies by trying to fire everyone, and take them over with random people he appoints as advisors. Those agencies exist not for him to wield power over, but to implement our priorities as authorized by the Congress.
The way it's supposed to work is the executive sends an aspirational budget to congress that embodies his policy agenda, our representatives vote on the budget, the congress appropriates the money that we send the government to the executive branch, and then the executive branch spends that money, again, faithfully. That's the oath he took. What that means operationally is that he can't just defund things we voted for in the budget that doesn't match his political agenda. Doing so should be impeachable, because it would represent a breach of his oath. It doesn't matter that he has a different agenda, he's the president for everyone.
Since he's not doing it this way, that's why people are pointing it out as unconstitutional, and illegal.
For DOGE to be legal what it needs to operate in just an advisory capacity. It should recommend things to cut, but there has to be reasons, an auditable process, transparency, and meaningful oversight. For starters, Musk has a massive conflict of interest in that he's a recipient of government contracts. So he himself shouldn't even be part of this process without first answering to that. If we keep going down this path, the people advocating for it now will not like being on the receiving end when that level of capriciousness is directed against them.
nailer 7 hours ago [-]
I’m not sure if you’ve ever dealt with the US government, but people that work there are famously unmotivated. This isn’t about replacing people with AI, it’s about people that can be replaced with grep. I’m not sure what you mean by people advocating for reducing government spending being on the “receiving end” of reducing government spending.
Finally, this is not capricious, this is absolutely well considered. If you haven’t realised the government has spent vast quantities of money, printed advanced quantities of money to do it, and caused record in inflation.
rsoto2 12 hours ago [-]
Trump said that musk is a special government employee, so yeah they are officially part of the executive branch.
nailer 7 hours ago [-]
They are absolutely individual engineers. And yes, Wired is targeting them but needs to show some awareness of what the effects of doing so may be.
nojonestownpls 7 hours ago [-]
Imagine if this was a male journalist snooping through newly appointed young, female engineers' histories, e-stalking them the same way and writing an article of his findings. You can justify it as "it's technically still reporting", but it's very creepy that they thought of this and then continued to think this was a good idea throughout the process.
concordDance 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
SauciestGNU 17 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
shipscode 12 hours ago [-]
There’s no reason to look for logical consistency. Some people like the government employees, some people like the kids taking them down.
It’s a fundamental matter of opinion driving the discourse - not the misappropriation of some objectively correct morality.
"They have apparently installed sofa beds in the office of the OPM."
"Government employeees in various agencies report that staffers from DOGE are turning up at this offices, plugging in servers and running "code reviews"."
"What the DOGE people seem most keen on is access to personnel records and as much information as possible about what employees actually do. According to one civil servant interviewed by DOGE personnel, the questions include, "Which of your colleagues are most expendable?""
Sounds like a scene from Office Space.
TrackerFF 2 days ago [-]
If they're engaged in doing illegal stuff, at the federal level, I fully expect Trump to just pardon everyone involved.
Maybe they're too deep in the Yarvin / Thield / Musk (Kool-Aid) sauce, but they should know better. This stuff will follow them for life.
Shekelphile 2 days ago [-]
They're directly attacking government infrastructure, including our intelligence apparatuses.
Even if they escape legal consequences they could become targeted for extrajudicial killings by intelligence agencies of the US and allies.
Vecr 22 hours ago [-]
I assume these are US citizens. The US constitution isn't set up to protect intelligence agencies if they attempt that kind of thing on US soil.
22 hours ago [-]
electriclove 21 hours ago [-]
What attack?? They are working for our government.
ctrlp 22 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
pessimizer 21 hours ago [-]
HN is filled with people who work for intelligence agencies and military contractors. Defending US abuses as well-meant mistakes, or framing any professional consequences or exposure of bad things the US does as treasonous is how they sleep at night.
They may seem nice and thoughtful when discussing other subjects, but when it comes to surveillance, censorship, subverting elections, or misleading the public, they think it's the most heroic possible thing. I get the impression that they think that they're heroically sacrificing their own morality for the greater good, and if you told them they'd go to hell for what they've done, they would be proud. Meanwhile, outside of that mental drama, they're collecting huge checks and have never missed a meal in their lives.
Same vibe you get from people who work in extremely polluting industries who think of themselves as lovers of nature. They're doing what is necessary to save what is possible to save. Also incidentally collecting huge checks.
Terr_ 2 days ago [-]
> to just pardon
More likely Trump continue to fire prosecutors that try to do their jobs upholding the literal law. No prosecution, no pardon needed.
The check on that is for Congress to impeach and remove a corrupt President from office, but that will be difficult with how many Republicans are complicit.
nullocator 2 days ago [-]
Based on what we've seen this past week it seems the next administration would have an obligation to fire them all, in much the way Trump is firing anyone who looked into or investigated him. And extrapolating to the next few months I'd say the next administration will likely have an obligation to attempt to send anyone associated with DOGE to prison for the rest of their lives. At least this appears to be the type of government Donald Trump and his voters believe America should have.
throw0101c 22 hours ago [-]
> And extrapolating to the next few months I'd say the next administration will likely have an obligation to attempt to send anyone associated with DOGE to prison for the rest of their lives.
If they get pre-emptive Presidential pardons, nothing can be done (unless you go with state-level charges).
bagels 9 hours ago [-]
Supreme court has made president king. They can just ignore the pardons.
ModernMech 2 days ago [-]
A lot of people are acting like the end of history is here.
Terr_ 2 days ago [-]
Do you remember when Presidents disclosed their finances and avoided things that could look like gifts/bribes? When they didn't fire prosecutors for getting too close to their business? When trial-balloons about becoming "President For Life" were taboo? When their lawyers didn't argue they had presumptive immunity to literally assassinate the other candidate?
This news item is just one more previously-unthinkable line crossed in an unambiguous trend towards more-crazy.
___________
> "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next."
-- They Thought They Were Free: The Germans The Germans, 1933-45* by Milton Meyer, published 1955.
matwood 9 hours ago [-]
> Do you remember when Presidents disclosed their finances and avoided things that could look like gifts/bribes?
So quaint. Now bribes are out in the open and no one even bats an eye. Trump coin, Trump media, never released anything about tax returns, selling merch, etc... It's comical to me that his followers think he's dismantling the deep state grifters, when he is a deep state grifter.
I have to give some credit to Trump and the media around him for being masters at the narrative. Hillary's emails and Hunter on a board of a company requires investigations and congressional involvement, but Trump and his family casually take 100's of millions if not billions in bribes and no one thinks twice.
throwaway141728 21 hours ago [-]
I want to add here that the Holocaust required a war (the Wannsee conference was in 1942), massive censorship (easy during a war) and misdirection like model concentration camps (Theresienstadt), where international agencies could look around and see how "humane" everyone was treated.
There was no Internet, only official propaganda. Sometimes the truth leaked via the Swedish embassy or railway workers, but it cannot spread far if those who spread it are killed themselves.
But I agree that people all over the world have been docile and compliant since 2020 on all sorts of issues, so the danger is there even if it should be harder today.
varjag 22 hours ago [-]
Quite the opposite, it's a lot of history in the making. But most likely it is the undignified end of Pax Americana.
jauntywundrkind 21 hours ago [-]
*Unmaking. But yes. Some real collapse of the republic scale shit, take over by Orban style autocratic political men. Pax Americana & our influence in the world abroad for sure.
This is potentially falling of the Soviet Union bad. Not that we will dissolve the union (still hopefully a very low chance) but that the system of government collapses & the various business-mafias squabble to claim what they can in the power vacuum that follows; a loss of national integrity.
kccoder 2 days ago [-]
And a lot of people are downplaying the severity of what is currently happening.
zelphirkalt 8 hours ago [-]
And are thereby enabling it, knowingly or unknowingly becoming part of it.
chairmansteve 2 days ago [-]
It is the end of democracy in the United States.
theonething 8 hours ago [-]
yeah, that's what people said about his first administration too. yawn
rbanffy 2 days ago [-]
It seems clear the US turned a page in its history.
throw0101c 22 hours ago [-]
> A lot of people are acting like the end of history is here.
Would you rather:
* 'over react' about the end of history, and be wrong (i.e. things turn out fine), or
* 'under react' and end up with a bunch of thugs in charge?
It's possible this is a situation where you're crying "wolf" when there isn't one, but given Trump's erratic mind, and the stated plans of the political right
And with regards to "over reacting" and nothing happening: a lot of folks said Y2K was an over reaction because nothing happened, but nothing happened because people did a much reacting. That nothing burger was a success, not a sign of over reaction.
Whatarethese 1 days ago [-]
The goalposts will be moved until our country is a husk of its former self. Thats literally how constitutional republics die.
xdennis 18 hours ago [-]
> If they're engaged in doing illegal stuff, at the federal level, I fully expect Trump to just pardon everyone involved.
Not trying to both-sides this, but the fact that Biden did that makes it more likely that Trump will do it too. It's a terrible precedent.
antifa 1 days ago [-]
[flagged]
giraffe_lady 22 hours ago [-]
Why? He's an american citizen. We have a name for the crime of attacking a state to whom one owes allegiance, and normative punishments for it.
antifa 22 hours ago [-]
Would love to see Musk tried for treason.
trallnag 22 hours ago [-]
Would love to float in the dead sea slurping on a pina colada right now.
21 hours ago [-]
thinkcontext 21 hours ago [-]
There is a process to revoke citizenship for people that lied as part of the process. Some are arguing that Musk did lie, his brother publicly said that weren't intending to enroll when they were on student visas.
I hope you don't think that this administration wouldn't deport a citizen. They have said they would deport people that were born here - birthright citizenship which is outlined in the constitution, based on their parents status.
giraffe_lady 21 hours ago [-]
I'm saying we can dream a little bigger here is all.
aswanson 1 days ago [-]
[flagged]
xezzed 7 hours ago [-]
This article appears to be a fictional piece that imagines a scenario where Elon Musk has gained control over certain federal government agencies through a project called the "Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE)." (c) Claude :)
billiam 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
bende511 20 hours ago [-]
No way a 19 year old could be tricked by a pretty woman into giving her secrets and access codes. Real level-headed and clear-eyed age
nickpinkston 19 hours ago [-]
Though is true of a lot of fully grown men - especially in DC.
alfalfasprout 17 hours ago [-]
ah, classic whataboutism
xvector 16 hours ago [-]
No, you are the one that pointed out the "19 year old" bit as if it mattered.
kccoder 13 hours ago [-]
I'd wager that a 19yo is MORE likely than a 29yo, which is also relevant. Also, properly trained individuals are less likely to fall into this trap. How much training have these completely non-vetted children had?
Cthulhu_ 19 hours ago [-]
Yeah I mean Zucc was only 20 when he started Facebook and popularised the adage "work fast and break things", which was a great strategy for Facebook and its burnt out staff (or those that couldn't hack it) so of course it'll work for the biggest economy in the world too, it's basically the same as a startup, right?
asadm 18 hours ago [-]
nations were lead into greatness by 17yo. It's a dumb idea that this can't be done here.
18 hours ago [-]
disqard 20 hours ago [-]
Obviously
tenpies 20 hours ago [-]
The Founding Fathers had 18, 20, 21 and 25 year olds in much more important positions.
And just like DOGE, they were working in a team with older people too, but that sort of rational framing just doesn't get clicks.
I'm no expert in US history but just looking at the signers list, 3/4 of them were >30yo.
jeltz 15 hours ago [-]
Most of the founding fathers were old. Benjamin Franklin was in his 80s. The young ones were the exception.
Cthulhu_ 19 hours ago [-]
The Founding Fathers were responsible for a population of... just under 3 million though, as opposed to the US' current ~350 million.
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
So you would agree with this comment if the US were smaller?
rsoto2 12 hours ago [-]
hahaha you think any part of this is rational? Ignorance must be bliss.
Svoka 20 hours ago [-]
It is very strange idea to equate life experiences gained before 18 of people born in 21st century in 18th century.
Also, as outsider, I would never understand US fascination with "Founding Fathers". Some folks born about 300 years ago and somehow having answers to all the questions for all the times. Back than this country was a backwater colony which barely started industrialization. Overwhelming majority of population lived out of sustenance farming and majority of trade goods were products of slave labour.
I mean, it is what it is, but where this yearning for glorious past which never existed comes from? Like, life in USA became more or less good only several generations ago, after the country became giant economical winner of WW2. And it did it by investing heavily into helping allies, not building isolationist policies.
tines 20 hours ago [-]
> I would never understand US fascination with "Founding Fathers"
Have you read any of their writing? A lot of it is timelessly insightful and they were very intelligent men.
> having answers to all the questions for all the times
This gives away that you haven't read them, because they themselves explicitly denied having answers for all time, and stated that the government needed to evolve with the governed.
rounce 18 hours ago [-]
Perhaps you should read their comment again: they never said the "Founding Fathers" claimed to have eternal answers, rather they pointed out the odd ritualised deference by people today to things written hundreds of years ago by people who (by your own admission) explained that the things they wrote would likely not be entirely applicable to the future.
sobellian 10 hours ago [-]
> Like, life in USA became more or less good only several generations ago, after the country became giant economical winner of WW2.
This judgement of course depends upon the standards of the observer and where in the US you look. Before the attack on Pearl Harbor, many elites in the Empire of Japan had spent time in America and came to view America as spoiled, decadent, and too soft to fight a long war.
ahmeneeroe-v2 20 hours ago [-]
Thank you! I was looking to see if anyone made this point.
You are exactly right. "Inexperience" just means someone younger than you.
(Note I am middle-aged)
medler 2 days ago [-]
I don’t know how this will shake out, but I do worry that these 19-24 year olds, some of whom are known to HN for other achievements, are putting themselves in real legal jeopardy.
Edit: by the way, this post isn’t off-topic. It is about the activities of the US Digital Service (now known as Doge), and the exploits of young hackers who came up through top tech companies. It has implications for information systems security, especially as it relates to Silicon Valley culture.
latexr 22 hours ago [-]
> I do worry that these 19-24 year olds (…) are putting themselves in real legal jeopardy.
On one side you have a handful of arrogant young adults doing the bidding of a couple of wannabe despotic man-babies. On the other you have an entire nation made up of millions of people and with major influence over the rest of the world.
I’m having a hard time understanding why your concern lies with the former.
drysine 19 hours ago [-]
>man-babies
If only other babies could launch and land rockets. Call Musk what you want, but he is not a baby.
tombert 1 hours ago [-]
Did he actually launch or land rockets? Or did he hire a bunch of people who actually did that?
I'm not saying that there isn't skill involved with hiring smart people, but I don't think it's correct to act like he single-handedly invented self-landing rockets.
latexr 6 hours ago [-]
A man-baby is an adult man who acts like a baby, e.g. throwing tantrums when they don’t get their way and being overly petty and vindictive, not a literal baby.
It is incredible that I have to explain this and that that is the part you object to. So you’re fine with despots, but “man-baby” is where you draw the line?
Either way, your objection makes absolutely zero difference to the point.
drysine 4 hours ago [-]
>acts like a baby, e.g. throwing tantrums when they don’t get their way
A man in the emotional state you described wouldn't be able to lead a company like SpaceX -- he would throw a tantrum when a rocket blows up instead of doubling down on perfecting it.
>So you’re fine with despots, but “man-baby” is where you draw the line?
I'm Russian and what's happening in the US government is your problem, we have our own problems. However, I have the respect for a man who has advanced the space industry so much even though it directly hurts my country -- in the end, we all are a part of humanity and the wars will end some day.
latexr 2 hours ago [-]
> A man in the emotional state you described wouldn't be able to lead a company like SpaceX
Clearly you haven’t been following his actions. This isn’t new. See for example when he called a rescuer a pedophile or when he told companies to not advertise on Twitter, or a myriad of other instances. You can literally search for “tantrum” with his name and find more examples than you’ll know what to do with.
> what's happening in the US government is your problem
Don’t assume everyone you talk to on the internet lives in or is a citizen of the USA.
> we have our own problems
Including a despot. Which is unfortunate. You shouldn’t wish it on anyone else.
> we all are a part of humanity and the wars will end some day.
Indeed they will. Probably because we’ll all die.
BLKNSLVR 18 hours ago [-]
I think he's well on the path to reverting to baby status.
Tadpole9181 19 hours ago [-]
Musk doesn't do that. He bought a company and claims all the credit for it, he's just a rich brat using daddy's blood money.
theonething 7 hours ago [-]
> He bought a company and claims all the credit for it
Dude, Musk founded Space X. It's because of these kinds of ridiculous comments that I find it hard to take the Left (at least the ones on the internet) seriously.
nova22033 17 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
minimaxir 2 days ago [-]
From a journalistic standpoint, it's entirely fair to report on these 19-24 year olds, and it is not doxxing to do so. They are quite literally now involved in the US government, and are consenting adults making the rational decision to involve themselves in real legal jeopardy.
JumpCrisscross 22 hours ago [-]
> it's entirely fair to report on these 19-24 year olds
Of course it is. As it will be to go after them through the criminal justice system in years ahead. I believe OP’s point is they don’t realise the jeopardy they’re getting themselves into.
euroderf 22 hours ago [-]
"I was just obeying executive orders."
beefnugs 21 hours ago [-]
The whole thing is sham, doesn't matter how illegal, apparently presidents can, at alarming rates, and completely openly to the public now just pardon anyone for anything.
matthewdgreen 19 hours ago [-]
The danger is that in a system without any meaningful rule of law, people will turn to violence as a means of achieving justice. This is an incredibly dangerous road we're going down.
JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago [-]
> presidents can, at alarming rates, and completely openly to the public now just pardon anyone for anything
It's wild how badly Biden screwed the pooch on this one. Campaigned in 2020 on keeping Trump out of office. Not only failed at that (he's more dangerous than he would have been with a narrow margin in '20) but also blew the precedents he claimed made Trump dangerous.
Alternate history has Biden forcing the Congress and states' hands by issuing a blanket pardon for all federal inmates, effective some time in the future, unless a Constitutional amendment is ratified by X date.
20 hours ago [-]
liontwist 15 hours ago [-]
So are public teachers. But I don’t think you would respond the same way.
bko 22 hours ago [-]
I guess that's good. It's interesting that we're just now learning the names of the people that hope to disrupt these agencies, but we don't know exactly who, or even how many, of these agencies existed.
In other words, there are these critically important agencies that I didn't even know existed, but they're basically the glue that holds together our democracy. Who runs these agencies is not important, what is important is that they continue to run as they have in the past and anyone looking to disrupt that should be thoroughly investigated.
electriclove 21 hours ago [-]
If you believe things have been run well at these agencies (that you didn’t even know existed), that would explain your position.
Imagine someone who believes that things have not been run properly. Now imagine half the country feeling this way.
__loam 21 hours ago [-]
The proper forum for reforms is congress, not steamrolling your way through the federal bureaucracy.
bko 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
jbeam 20 hours ago [-]
>That's another way of saying you don't think there should be reforms. It won't happen.
Because the people's representatives will get in the way? The pesky checks and balances of democracy?
justin66 2 days ago [-]
> I do worry that these 19-24 year olds, some of whom are known to HN for other achievements, are putting themselves in real legal jeopardy.
I worry that the law will not hold them accountable.
archagon 21 hours ago [-]
If not the law, then perhaps social consequences will.
johnnyanmac 2 days ago [-]
> I do worry that these 19-24 year olds, some of whom are known to HN for other achievements, are putting themselves in real legal jeopardy.
They 100% are. This is a full blackhat attack on a nation. Did they take no ethics class? (software or otherwise)?
viccis 21 hours ago [-]
My experience with ethics classes is that they usually just teach you good ways to justify whatever you want.
beAbU 19 hours ago [-]
They are 19-24. They never completed college.
wyager 20 hours ago [-]
If you get your ethics from some class you took in college, you definitely shouldn't be given authority over anything important
aswanson 1 days ago [-]
The one kid just graduated high school. So, unlikely.
zb3 22 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
electriclove 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
__loam 21 hours ago [-]
They are working for Elon Musk.
electriclove 21 hours ago [-]
Who is working for Marco Rubio (Secretary of State) in this case
ty6853 22 hours ago [-]
Lon Horiuchi could not be convicted for literally sniping an unarmed women with a child in her arms, standing in a doorway of her house threatening no one. Supremacy clause for executive federal employees.
They will be fine.
ansmithz42 21 hours ago [-]
They are not executive employees, they are Musk employees, not the same thing.
ty6853 21 hours ago [-]
USDS is doge. Musk is a federal employee. Presumably they are as well, with USDS?
dumah 20 hours ago [-]
Lon Horiuchi couldn't be convicted because the state's prosecutor dropped it.
ty6853 20 hours ago [-]
... The feds invoked supremacy clause to squash the case long enough it was too stale by the time it wound through appeals. The special prosecutor did not at all want to drop it and said as much.
The supremacy clause was what ultimately killed it, by being useful enough to delay cases to the point they're dead.
dumah 16 hours ago [-]
That’s fair.
ninalanyon 8 hours ago [-]
When I was in that age range (five decades ago) everyone I knew of the same age was politically aware and many were politically active. Has that changed so much that they can claim to be naively unaware of what they are doing?
venusenvy47 21 hours ago [-]
I don't see why anyone should worry about the people actually committing crimes and being in legal jeopardy. That's the purpose of the legal system. People need to learn that ignorance of the law is not a defense.
afavour 22 hours ago [-]
I’d go as far as to say that’s the intention here. They’re fall guys and they’re too naive/arrogant to realise it.
People say “oh, Trump will pardon them” but I wouldn’t be so sure, why does he care? Once this is done they’re not of any real use to him so it’s entirely possible he won’t waste the political capital pardoning them. Would be in character for a guy famous for not paying folks who have done work for him.
kelnos 21 hours ago [-]
I really don't worry at all for these people. They're adults, even if young, and they've made their choice. Any consequences they suffer will be well deserved.
I'm sure Trump will preemptively pardon them at the end of his term anyway. My worry is that these people will never be held accountable for what they're doing.
Save your worry for things that actually matter.
nxm 18 hours ago [-]
Same like Biden and his crew of folks he preemtively pardoned
kelnos 17 hours ago [-]
Sure, if you want to play the whataboutism card, go for it.
While I understand why Biden did what he did there, I didn't agree with it. At the very least it sets bad precedent and allows people like you to pretend they have a "gotcha!" argument when they really have nothing.
guelo 1 days ago [-]
Nah theyll have pardons if they ever get into trouble. That was part of the reason trump pardoned the j6ers, to let all his minions know that they have free rein to commit crimes.
euroderf 22 hours ago [-]
That's why they need OPM: So they can run off a giant listing of DOGE-droids and tear it from the dot-matrix printer and stamp every page with a big rubber stamp saying "Pardoned! D.J. Trump"
maxerickson 2 days ago [-]
Yeah, probably. Why does their jeopardy concern you more than the apparent lack of legitimate authority to do what they are doing?
medler 2 days ago [-]
It doesn’t really. Obviously the alleged security breach is egregious and if they’re committing crimes they should be prosecuted. But given that they’re relatively young, part of me wonders if these guys are being exploited by Musk and Thiel and will be scapegoated if the political winds start blowing another way. But that makes no difference to their criminal liability.
sebzim4500 22 hours ago [-]
Trump pardoned the J6 guys for trying to kill the vice president, surely he'll pardon these guys for whatever bureaucratic rules they are breaking.
2 days ago [-]
electriclove 21 hours ago [-]
I thought Marco Rubio is acting director and has given them authority. Is this untrue? Why do you say apparent lack of legitimate authority?
comex 12 hours ago [-]
Some of the key actions taken or threatened by DOGE are at least arguably illegal without permission from Congress, such as dismantling USAID, offering "deferred resignation" firing employees without due process, unilaterally stopping payments to agencies or individuals, and some smaller ones. Beyond that, there is the FACA lawsuit challenging the organization of DOGE itself; the administration has partially mitigated that by making Musk a special government employee, but no word on the rest of DOGE.
2 days ago [-]
alfalfasprout 17 hours ago [-]
Why worry? They signed onto be one of Musk's sycophants are at this point are clearly aware of their actions. You can have accomplishments and still be on the wrong side of history.
Tadpole9181 2 days ago [-]
Why are you concerned? They're adults and know this is blatantly illegal and are serving their lord anyway. They don't even have the pleasure of deniability since the government officials literally stepped in, physically blocked them, and told them they weren't allowed.
Personally, I hope they get what's coming to them.
jjtheblunt 22 hours ago [-]
> blatantly illegal
genuine question, not sarcastic: what specifically is blatantly illegal, violating what law?
afavour 22 hours ago [-]
They are (according to the accounts given) accessing confidential government information they don’t have security credentials for.
bdangubic 21 hours ago [-]
there’s this guy named Donald who just might pardon whoever is committing whatever crimes are being committed…
kelnos 21 hours ago [-]
I'm sure he will. But that doesn't refute the assertion that what they're doing is illegal. It supports it, even.
afavour 21 hours ago [-]
All else aside I wouldn’t assume he’s going to. I doubt Trump cares one way or the other if these kids rot in jail.
There’s a long, long list of people who thought “Trump owes me” would be a guarantee and got a rude awakening.
bdangubic 20 hours ago [-]
I doubt Trump cares one way or the other if these kids rot in jail
they are doing what he is (in)directly ordering - they ain't going to jail following the orders of the POTUS :)
thanks : it's oh so HN that the question got downvoted, and you alone had an answer, much appreciated.
derangedHorse 19 hours ago [-]
Your question was valid and you didn’t deserve to get downvoted. That being said the person who responded to you is wrong. They did have the appropriate security clearance to access the records.
Some people are skeptical on the legitimacy of what some are calling “emergency” security clearances given by executive order[1] but there’s no evidence this is not within the bounds of the president’s power. An expedited clearance could have been granted in 48 hours but presumably the backlog has already lasted longer than that and would hamper plans for the first month in office.
> They did have the appropriate security clearance to access the records.
That EO says:
The White House Counsel to provide the White House Security Office and Acting Chief Security Officer with a list of personnel
Where do you see that the CSO has granted access to those specific individuals? For the record, I'm not saying they are or are not on that list, we just simply don't know. If they have not been granted security clearance then there is in fact a law that makes it illegal to access federal systems and those boys are in for some trouble.
20 hours ago [-]
monero-xmr 22 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
ljsprague 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
cleverwebble 20 hours ago [-]
thats a wild, and dangerous take
_DeadFred_ 2 days ago [-]
[flagged]
justin66 1 days ago [-]
They're not pseudonymously posting on Reddit or something, they're working in the federal government. The concept of "doxxing" does not apply.
_DeadFred_ 23 hours ago [-]
When people are creating lists including who their parents are, their parents jobs, etc. it kind of does in my mind. My bad.
ian-g 22 hours ago [-]
In my mind, there are a number of instances online where people (read: men) are acting like entitled princes, and the one thing that gets them to back off is making their families aware of what's going on.
Considering that these six are almost certainly peak internet people, I can't say I entirely disagree with trying to make sure their families know what they're doing. And so those family members know who to blame if data is leaked, potentially like the bank account details stored in the treasury payments system.
freedomben 22 hours ago [-]
Just to make sure I understand what you're saying and the underlying principle and how it might apply. You support internet mobs (and eventually IRL mobs) harassing innocent people who happen to be related to somebody else?
Do you agree with everything your relatives do? Are you willing to be held to the same standard? If you brother/sister/son/father/uncle/nephew/whatever does something I don't like, can I publish your personal information and get an internet mob to call and threaten your employer?
ian-g 13 hours ago [-]
I work with HR data and other related information
I take its protection very seriously, and if I had done even a fraction of what these folks have, I would expect at minimum to be fired
viccis 21 hours ago [-]
When people can't be legally held accountable, then why are you surprised that there are those trying to hold them accountable via extrajudicial means?
freedomben 19 hours ago [-]
I'm not surprised. In fact, I expected it. Lynching is a long-held tradition in the United States after all. And vigilante Justice is hardly an American invention.
I'm asking if it's what is actually being argued and if people believe that it is right.
By the same logic, it's not hard to get this place: If the sheriff won't hold a black man accountable for whistling at a white woman, then of course the white citizens must take justice into their own hands, right?
username332211 20 hours ago [-]
Let's ignore the ethics of your position just for a second.
How do you think would affairs develop if the policy you defend now continues? Suppose the families of those men are "made aware of their son's actions" (i.e. they are harassed, because that's what's really going to happen).
The administration will make sure that public the has the right to know the name and addresses of the loved ones of opposition politicians and their associates. And, it may come to a surprise to you, but most crazy people with a lot of firearms generally support the administration and ruling party. Those people can harrass families with unprecedented effectiveness. They can also do much worse.
How is what you are suggesting a good idea from a purely tactical standpoint?
derangedHorse 21 hours ago [-]
This is a gross justification of something you know to be wrong. If all the employees who are currently working at the Treasury had their names leaked you wouldn’t think twice about it being a case of doxxing.
Somehow people feel justified in their condemnation because they don’t know what was happening in the department before and assume more was done than actually was by these DOGE employees. Note that the article has no idea of the extent of work done by each of them, the internal processes at DOGE, or the legality of these events.
At this point it’s just fear mongering with words like “coup” being thrown around and baseless accusations about the halting of payments to essential programs like Medicare, Medicaid, social security, etc. None of which have been verbally stated as a target for termination this term
floatrock 22 hours ago [-]
That's what reporting on public figures entails, especially when their public actions are legally murky at best. Or are you proposing they're not actually public figures (in which case why do they have access to the systems they do?)
But really, yeah, lets talk about questionable people creating questionable lists......
_DeadFred_ 21 hours ago [-]
Dude I responded to old boy saying 'I fear what might happen to these guys' with 'somethings happening'. I didn't stake out a moral position.
dbalatero 22 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
ivewonyoung 22 hours ago [-]
Does that include posting their/their parents home addresses? That's what's been happening.
SantalBlush 22 hours ago [-]
That's terrible, because taking someone's private data without permission and misusing it is wrong.
timr 22 hours ago [-]
So the concept of "doxxing" doesn't apply to anyone who works in a government job? We can just publish the private information of any low-level employee?
floatrock 21 hours ago [-]
By their unprecedented and legally-murky access level, they're far from "low-level employee".
And for the important folks, we make a loud cry about even their birth certificates and birth parents, so why not this?
All sense of decorum has been burned down long ago, and hilariously, it's been burned down by the same people now pretending to complain here.
If we're gonna make it to the other side of all this, it's going to take another Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or Roosevelt to restore any of our former dignity. And no, this one's gonna be lucky to have history consider it even a Nixon.
timr 20 hours ago [-]
Right. So, the basic principle is: if you think you're doing something valorious and can rationalize the result, you can ruin the lives of whomever you like.
This doesn't seem to be a huge leap from the rationalization for "doxxing" in any other period.
floatrock 19 hours ago [-]
We're still in the "burn it all down" phase, and the problem about "burn it all down" is you get burned too, especially if you're in there looting while the house is on fire.
We haven't yet found the leaders who will be the ones rebuilding. Maybe we have the ones who will be sitting on a charred throne claiming a burned-out husk of a throneroom in their hard-earned kingdom of ash, but not the ones who will rebuild.
So spare me the feigned morality right now, we all know no one's playing by those rules anymore.
minimaxir 22 hours ago [-]
Access to the Treasury that is normally highly-restricted is the furthest from "low-level employee" that you can get.
KerrAvon 22 hours ago [-]
We make exceptions for fascists. We have to.
euroderf 21 hours ago [-]
Also we make exceptions for ad hoc procedures untested by the courts and not even evaluated by the appropriate government organ (GSA?).
freedomben 21 hours ago [-]
What's the underlying principle here? If you think somebody is a fascist you can attack their family? Do you think there should be any legal process or protection for anybody accused by another random person of being a fascist?
To maintain a tolerant society, a tolerant society must be specifically intolerant of the intolerant.
Fuck the fascists.
20 hours ago [-]
throw16180339 22 hours ago [-]
When you're helping a fascist destroy our government, you've earned everything that happens to you.
20 hours ago [-]
maxerickson 2 days ago [-]
They are identified in the linked Wired article...Good job though, you are keeping on top of things.
_DeadFred_ 23 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
maxerickson 21 hours ago [-]
Yes, the condescending tone was intentional.
I'm pretty sure that the article is widely linked on both sites, so to answer your question, "lots".
_DeadFred_ 11 hours ago [-]
And the entire popular subreddit is now blocked after being invoked by (f)Elon, and a retweet by the Prosecutor from DC.
You can f'off with your condescending bs.
archagon 21 hours ago [-]
I don't necessarily approve of this action, but... a key to a peaceful life is to not piss off too many people at once. If you decide spit on a hundred million people, you're not gonna like it when a fraction of them spit back. Break the social contract at your own peril.
22 hours ago [-]
daxfohl 18 hours ago [-]
I wonder how much of this is "I don't want to sell this Tesla I couldn't afford, so instead I'll change my whole political ideology"
fzliu 22 hours ago [-]
I don't understand why the editors allowed the engineers' names to be made public. What did they hope to gain by doing this other than making them magnets for harassment and possibly threats?
minimaxir 22 hours ago [-]
The identities of the engineers are now unambigiously in the public interest as they now have an impact on the government. These aren't scrappy hackers trolling on internet forums.
rozap 21 hours ago [-]
They're public servants. Most public servants have their name, position, level, salary, etc listed in public datasets. There is no "doxxing" of public servants. This isn't a usenet.
fullshark 21 hours ago [-]
The American people deserve to know what is happening in their government.
tgv 20 hours ago [-]
Isn't it free speech? Yes, that is a comment in style against the guidelines of this forum, but you've got to admire the irony.
In normal circumstances, e.g. as contractors I would agree. However, they are not, as far as I can tell they are operating as federal employees. No federal employee name is private.
I do see this (article) as mostly retaliation though. Maybe deserved or not. Hard to tell at this point. But these people are public employees nevertheless, they never had the option for anonymity.
It seems to me like it really appropriate background...
iamleppert 20 hours ago [-]
The next four years are going to be a test of the US Constitution. But when they are up -- and they will be, and people are more angry at Trump than the last time around the pendulum swings wildly back again, as it always does, what is going to happen to Musk and the rest of them?
vermilingua 20 hours ago [-]
I expect we’ll see more Italian plumbers coming out of the woodwork before 4 years is up.
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
I too am a fan of mario brothers!
fullshark 2 hours ago [-]
OP was making a veiled reference to Luigi Mangione, the man accused of murdering the UHC ceo.
CaptainFever 13 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
DangitBobby 12 hours ago [-]
Apparently predicting violence is now the same thing as encouraging it.
tines 20 hours ago [-]
It's not a test of The Constitution, it's a test of our constitution, and we're being exposed as we speak.
talldayo 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
kelnos 17 hours ago [-]
Maybe you are, but that's not me, and that's not a ton of people in the comments here (I would say easily more than half) reacting negatively to what Musk and Trump are doing.
Stop projecting, and stop making sweeping generalizations about HN posters.
unification_fan 18 hours ago [-]
> we
you. I'm here because I like programming and because I have fun reading the stupid bullshit some people pass for intelligent thought around these parts.
yibg 16 hours ago [-]
This assumes there will be a next time. Sometimes once momentum is allowed to build it's very hard to stop or even slow things down.
louthy 20 hours ago [-]
That assumes this will end.
kappuchino 19 hours ago [-]
From the outside (that is europen view) it looks like they're planning that this change in four years - or even two - will not happen. We'll see.
A good read would be Survival of the Richest: Escape Fantasies of the Tech Billionaires.
duderific 20 hours ago [-]
I think it is going to be much harder to get Trump to leave after these four years than the last time. I imagine there will be an amendment on the table soon to do away with the two-term limit, if there isn't already. Or, he may just say "come and get me" and if the military is on his side, he can just continue to rule as he sees fit.
sirbutters 19 hours ago [-]
Key word here is "cannot be elected more than twice". So as long as there is no official election, he is not technically violating the constitution by remaining in power. I'm playing devil's advocate here.
DanHulton 18 hours ago [-]
Trump is old and is not the leading example of a healthy person. I think there's an entirely reasonable chance that nature takes care of this one for us.
That said, I don't think it matters at all. This isn't a Trump problem. Sure, he's the figurehead, but there are ample figureheads waiting in the wings, just as malleable to the alt-reich's needs. They will be more than happy to step in and allow the current dismantling of the USA to continue, and for Something Very Else to be built in its place.
kelnos 17 hours ago [-]
Yup, exactly. Hell, even if Trump were to die of a heart attack tomorrow, Vance would happily continue the cureent trajectory, and he might even be better at doing so.
sirbutters 16 hours ago [-]
The cult of personality would die though, with a considerable impact to the regime. We've been predicting the death of orange man for years considering his diet, and yes it's a miracle he's lived this long, but an often understated asset of his is that he doesn't drink an once of alcohol. That can help him survive way past his 2nd term, I think.
AnimalMuppet 19 hours ago [-]
I worry more about what will happen to the US then. The backlash is going to be very tempted to fight fire with fire, to fight unconstitutionality with unconstitutionality.
Can we get back to a functioning rule of law and a limited government at the end of this? I'm... hesitant.
kelnos 17 hours ago [-]
The problem is that the optimistic approach requires that there's enough left of the government in order to use legal means to stop the catastrophe. I really really hope there will be, but right now I'm worried that's a losing proposition.
Arubis 19 hours ago [-]
That's a hell of a stain to have on your résumé.
flaque 21 hours ago [-]
This seems broadly good. If you told me a democratic admin had recruited these people, I would think "wow! what a positive signal for the current admin!"
danso 21 hours ago [-]
The Obama admin created the US Digital Service — i.e. the unit that “DOGE” has now reappropriated — which attracted and hired folks like Google’s Matt Cutts [0]. The USDS did not, as far as we know, try to sneak in fresh-out-of-college-grads by bypassing the normal hiring process.
You should probably pay more attention to what people do rather than their credentials as it’s a more powerful signal.
artistic_regard 21 hours ago [-]
[dead]
MeetingsBrowser 21 hours ago [-]
How could you not trust a 19 year old who goes by bigballs?
I for one trust Mr.BigBalls to make smart and effective cuts to get our government back on track!
masterclef 14 hours ago [-]
I trust bigballs as much as i trust deepthroat.
jondwillis 12 hours ago [-]
Accelerationism, everyone. I'm not excited to see this play out.
ayakang31415 12 hours ago [-]
I see things done by DOGE are getting noticed. I vaguely remember that DOGE will be decommissioned around 2026 independence day I believe? I have no confidence in judging what the outcome might be at this point, so I will wait till the last day of DOGE.
trhway 19 hours ago [-]
Well, Cultural Revolutions are almost always done by young and inexperienced.
Btw, i wonder how many of those raiding the government offices are really DOGE people and not say Russian or Chinese agents pretending to be DOGE - if one to believe the news the security let them into the building once they threatened to call Marshals Service (social engineering DOGE style. That clearly shows couple things - 1. DOGE themselves didn't bother to get proper paperwork, clearances, etc., a "promising" start so to speak and 2. that at least the building security part of the government there got totally rotten as it failed to perform their basic duties. And the agencies' (Treasury(!), USAID,...) employees just giving their laptops and access to internal systems to the first schmuck supposedly from some DOGE - and that all after years of trainings of "don't leave your screen unlocked", "don't give sensitive info to the strangers pretending to be your higher-up or a colleague" . Really shows the effectiveness of all those trainings :)
rayiner 7 hours ago [-]
“Inexperienced.” Reflexive deference to credentialism and tenure coming from Wired is wild.
fsckboy 12 hours ago [-]
the dogs bark. but the caravan continues on. -- proverb
witnesser2 18 hours ago [-]
The old experienced are staying home or surviving with aids of non-engineering skills. LOL.
EGreg 15 hours ago [-]
And here I thought they'd actually consider my resume. They didn't even bother looking. When DOGE first called for people to apply, they did it on X and said we can send a message to their account on X.
So I actually got excited about tackling waste, and wrote this cover letter:
Little did I know this admin was going to be shutting down datasets from data.gov and other crap. I really tried to bring something positive into it, but it's just more of the same. They sidelined Vivek too.
a12k 15 hours ago [-]
> Little did I know
You should have, had you done any research. This was long after Elon’s slide into anti-democratic, far right ideology. And as we now know merely weeks before he did multi Nazi salutes on stage.
This feels like people who are surprised that Trump is ticking boxes on Project 2025 despite it being out for multiple years.
There’s a pizza shop in NW DC with a basement you should investigate.
EGreg 15 hours ago [-]
Well, it's refreshing that you're doing an "I told you so" about Musk, rather than getting on my case about my suggestion to use Blockchain to "increase public transparency and accountability", which is what I thought was more likely to happen on HN.
I think there are actually good use cases for blockchain and smart contracts, and DOGE was finally going to be one of them.
a12k 14 hours ago [-]
I didn’t think any of your suggestions were worth evaluating on their merits.
melbourne_mat 14 hours ago [-]
Did you find a legit use case for blockchain? Nice work bro!
gradus_ad 19 hours ago [-]
I applaud these guys and the work they're doing. Any bureaucracy, public or private, with access to a guaranteed income stream will grow like a tumor. The entire federal govt needs to be audited and gutted. The time for committees, reports and similar half measures is over.
rozap 17 hours ago [-]
Even taking your statement at face value, as a non-troll, this makes no sense.
Have you ever optimized a slow program? How do you do that? A popular approach is with a flamegraph. It shows the hot parts of the execution; what is burning CPU cycles. If we profiled federal government, we'd find 4 big areas of spending [1]. Social security, medicare, the military, and debt interest. In our flamegraph, these are big fat sections. If you're profiling a program, would you look at this and say, "oh i'm going to spend my time optimizing this function call which takes up .01% of the execution time?" no, you wouldn't (unless you're an intern).
But that's hard, which is why elon isn't doing it. Nobody wants to cut social security because then a bunch of old people would starve to death. Same with medicare. Defaulting on our national debt would be a bad look. And god forbid we give the military less money. So where does that leave us? Even if you truly believe elon cares about making the government more efficient, the approach doesn't make any sense. In the absolute most charitable reading of it, he's just incompetent and he's doing this for show to get some widely supported easy wins (let's get rid of the penny and save $86M/y!) so people will like him. But the more realistic viewing is that he's gutting programs in order to further his own agendas, which is literally the definition of corruption.
There's a saying "don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence" but you don't become the richest man in the world by being incompetent. You become the richest man in the world through malice.
There is still a sensible positive interpretation. It's possible that the distortionary economic and geopolitical effects of this spending both domestically and abroad has just as severe or worse negative externalities as items with larger budgets. Those externalities could range from inflation, displacing local industries and organic fundraising mechanisms, enabling rent-seeking corruption, overproduction of idle elites, instilling self-crit degrowth ideation, and political polarization/backlash abroad (My Japanese relatives now have a very dim view of Rahm Emanuel and Biden due to their USAID type activities and strings-attached diplomacy of paternalistic progressive cultural imperialism).
A reverse Keynesian effect you could call it - where there are second-order deadweight loss effects from "NGO" grift make-work complex, rather than a synergy.
nxm 18 hours ago [-]
Not sure why this is being down voted. I don't want my tax money being wasted to no end
20 hours ago [-]
adamredwoods 21 hours ago [-]
I'm concerned about my US bonds, as the way to access them is through a government website. Are these people going to block my access and steal my money?
>> “We really have very little eyes on what's going on. Congress has no ability to really intervene and monitor what's happening because these aren't really accountable public officials. So this feels like a hostile takeover of the machinery of governments by the richest man in the world.”
sanderjd 20 hours ago [-]
Investors' faith in US bond and equity markets is, unironically, the most powerful immediate-term check on the current administration. The longer-term check is the midterm elections in 2026. If they really screw things up, as they appear to be doing, that's their deadline for fixing them.
bloopernova 18 hours ago [-]
The republicans purged a lot of people from voter rolls. They're going to do the same in 2026.
If you want to vote, anticipate dozens of hours over several months making sure you weren't removed from the register.
Why are they so against people voting? The number of actual fraudulent vote cases prosecuted was very, very small, but the measures taken against voter fraud have been disproportionate.
yellow_lead 13 hours ago [-]
Is there a source on this? I haven't heard of it and it sounds undemocratic
Just voter ID finally and lets forget this blame game.
ddulaney 9 hours ago [-]
When government IDs are universal, we can require them to vote.
Here's a study from about a year ago: [0].
Upshot is that 21% of Americans 18 and older don't have an ID that matches their name and address. Disenfranchising a fifth of Americans isn't something I'd accept.
Note also that it's 23% of Democrats, 16% of Republicans, and 31% of independents. You can see why Democrats are anti-ID-check while Republicans are pro-ID-check as a general rule.
I'm not from the US, but all the countries I've lived in require some form of ID. As far as I know, US is the only country in the world that doesn't. So, I have an honest question: why would you want people who don't bother to have a valid ID to vote at all? Do you expect them to be responsible people, good members of society? People who pay more in taxes than they receive from the government?
I don't know enough about US to be sure. But in any country I've lived in, the answer would be no.
mkoubaa 7 hours ago [-]
I am totally fine with disenfranchising people who don't have up to date IDs. The cost of a perception of illegal ballot stuffing is high and the benefit of these voters is marginal at best.
sanderjd 18 hours ago [-]
They benefit from more people voting, not fewer. The valance of that issue flipped over the last few cycles.
rtpg 18 hours ago [-]
There's a good amount of evidence that more turnout would help Republicans in general, even before (at least if you applied the "socio-economic voting preference determinism" logic that one tends to apply).
It's good to be against voter suppression because voter suppression is bad, even if in theory it doesn't help "your side". One would hope that doing that work would convince some people you're on "their side", but it's quite nebulous.
sanderjd 15 hours ago [-]
Agreed.
bagels 17 hours ago [-]
There was an effort to purge minorities from rolls in swing states. It matters where the more votes come from.
sanderjd 15 hours ago [-]
I think that's bad, but I also think it is less likely to be an effective strategy for the current regime than a lot of other things.
14 hours ago [-]
kccoder 13 hours ago [-]
Then why did they purge a lot of voters in 2024? And take other actions to suppress voter turnout?
mostertoaster 10 hours ago [-]
Does blocking non citizens from voting count as “suppressing voter turnout”? It’s all just politics and words, and we’ve picked our side and so we use the language that best supports it. Is someone pro-life, or are they anti women’s rights? Is someone pro-choice, or are they pro-baby-murder.
How does one actually convince someone of the “rightness” of their side? It somehow starts with love your enemies, though if I say that to my more right wing friends it means capitulate to whatever the progressives want. All I know is the spirit of the age is evil.
Passing laws to make it harder to vote, and easier to challenge a persons voter registration and ballot, and then running an operative campaign to specifically target voters on the other side of the political spectrum is a bit different than "just politics". Legal, sure. Ethical, moral, fair, absolutely not.
mostertoaster 26 minutes ago [-]
Eh, it’s all politics. I’m sure they are trying to win however they can, don’t sit there and be so naive to think the other side wouldn’t be perfectly happy to let illegal immigrants vote if it benefited them.
I’m all for fairness. For example I think we should weight votes, where everyone gets one vote for each dollar of taxes they pay.
I also want to see all landlords structure rental contracts so that the renter pays the property taxes, if rent was 2k a month but there are $500 in property taxes a month, rent would become $1500 plus $500 property taxes. That way the immediate effects of voting for tax increases is felt acutely and their blame can go on themselves instead of their “greedy landlord”.
qqqwerty 1 minutes ago [-]
> I’m all for fairness. For example I think we should weight votes, where everyone gets one vote for each dollar of taxes they pay.
You are joking right? Honest, question, what life experiences have you had that make you think that this would be a good idea. It would effectively mean a handful of billionaires would control the country.
> I also want to see all landlords structure rental contracts so that the renter pays the property taxes
It is a free market. Outside of a handful of places with rent control, nothing is stopping them from doing that. And if you think splitting out property taxes as a separate line item will somehow make tenants think that landlords, the vast majority of whom increase their rents to the absolute maximum that the market will bear, are somehow not greedy, I think you have a pretty bad handle on what it is like to be in the renter class.
Hikikomori 7 hours ago [-]
Non citizens cannot vote for presidents.
mostertoaster 34 minutes ago [-]
Oh but they have tried. And if you listen to the progressive left, if we try to make sure that remains true, then we are suppressing the vote.
JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago [-]
> why did they purge a lot of voters in 2024?
Because the GOP isn't a monolith. Lots of them are still operating under a playbook 2024 proved obsolete. Race is no longer an almost-perfect proxy for partisan affiliation [1].
Imagine if the US misses bond payments and defaults because of bureaucracy problems (not lack of money). It would completely explode the interest rates of any loans they have and completely tank the US government for years.
bagels 17 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
mostertoaster 10 hours ago [-]
It’s all in the eye of the beholder.
It appears to me that Trump is doing phenomenal, and my I didn’t like the other side vote for him, is turning into I kind of like him and would more actively support him. He seems like a strong president, especially compared to his predecessor, and the promise to “make America great again”, seems like it might becoming more of a reality.
If he can negotiate an end to the Ukraine war, in a relatively soonish timeframe, I will be very happy. But it’s kind of a game of chicken, a high risk high reward type gamble, that could be very dangerous and lead to worse things, so I’ll just have to wait and see.
Ultimately I read comments here and I think the “other side” is blind, which they likely think of me.
eCa 8 hours ago [-]
Well, I’m on the other side of the Atlantic, so probably not the other side you meant so take it for what it’s worth.
Your president has threatened war on Denmark, a close ally to my country (think your relationship with Canada until he started threatening them with war too). If I knew nothing else about him that would be enough.
I’ve been using American web hosts since the ’90s. I’m currently in the process of moving away from Digital Ocean
to a European host. I’m cancelling as many other services (Netflix, Strava, etc) as possible. Not much, about $300-400 less per month from me to the US.
I’m happy I got to visit New York a few years ago.
RealityVoid 6 hours ago [-]
Saw a big deal with a US supplier recently fall through because of US instability. It's all insane.
mostertoaster 21 minutes ago [-]
Yeah I don’t get the Greenland thing. I think it is all grandstanding.
But I appreciate dictator Trump. If they wanted to go to war with Denmark they would just crush them openly, rather than as they do today with countries who disagree with them, where we covertly undermine them to get what we want.
Though maybe I’m a bit of an enigma, I don’t think the US should’ve declared independence from Britain, and wish we still had a monarchy. Problem is kings need to be noble, which none of our politicians, including Trump, seem to be.
Oh well. Peace to you on the other side of the pond.
sanderjd 4 hours ago [-]
The rule of law is more important than your specific policy preferences. If leaders you like can do whatever they want without following the law, leaders you don't like can do the same thing. We have a solution to that problem in this country. We have a legislature that passes the laws that everyone is subject to. Whatever you like in the current administration is less important than their lawlessness.
mostertoaster 17 minutes ago [-]
Laws they’re subject to unless the president pardons them.
Mostly we pass as many laws as possible, then only enforce them when it is politically expedient.
The government in passing so many laws has made the law a joke. Maybe the right wing are the progressives now and they’re just going to tear everything down?
I’m enjoying the show. Can’t wait to see what Musk digs up.
aetch 9 hours ago [-]
This has to be a joke
Lerc 8 hours ago [-]
Because you found a person with opinions different to your own?
I think most of what Trump is attempting will work out poorly, for America, Trump, and the world in general. I can't prove that and there are so many presumptions in my world view, my estimation might be incorrect.
Trump was elected. I think a lot of that support came from people who had been voting for either Kang or Kodos for years and knew the outcome of that wasn't going to be what they wanted. I believe those people know exactly what kind of person Trump is, but that Trump acting in his own self interest might cause government action that is at least not-as-bad as the alternative of a perpetual status quo.
I don't think that is the case, but I think it would be unreasonable to declare that someone who believes something different is wrong simply because I think my opinion objectively carries more weight.
RealityVoid 6 hours ago [-]
Disclaimer: not an US citizen.
I appreciate your post, and I think there is some truth to what you're saying. The problem is that... It's hard bordering on impossible for me to process what these people see good in what he's doing. I've tried, mind you, I've really truly tried. But this whole thing sounds insane to me. There is no way for me to erase the bigger picture from my mind that I get to the point... "yeah, he's doing a good job."
The second point is I feel a lot of these people are NOT arguing in good faith. If someone is not arguing in good faith, being "understanding" would just embolden them.
Honestly, this whole thing makes my head explode.
mostertoaster 7 minutes ago [-]
I have a hard time expressing why I like what Trump is doing. It might just be to see those squirm who put us through Covid lockdown hell, or just someone who is so willing to do whatever openly.
An example I like: they deport a bunch of Colombians here illegally, Socialist Colombian President refuses to let the plane land, Trump immediately says we are going to hammer them with tariffs and other things, Colombian President apologizes and says they won’t get in the way.
He is just exerting American dominance openly. He took us out of the WHO, ends the dumb climate accord. The idea that we should put our own people first.
Now it all might blow up in our face as the world gets sick of the American bully, and that will crush our empire, but I’m also ok with that, because it might be the only thing that will allow us to rebuild from the ground up.
chasely 20 hours ago [-]
I'm trying to download my 1099 forms from TreasuryDirect and it's coming back as unavailable. Probably unrelated to everything going on now, but the fact I thought that it could be related for a second is crazy.
>>> TreasuryDirect is unavailable.
>>> We apologize for the inconvenience and ask that you try again later.
11 hours ago [-]
adamsb6 17 hours ago [-]
I don't think Treasury Direct could get much worse without just being completely broken.
At least they don't force you to login with a virtual keyboard any longer.
justin66 20 hours ago [-]
They are going to make it easier to get your money by making it available via X!
hedora 15 hours ago [-]
They'll steal it via inflation. Trump's already announced a few programs that involve him siphoning federal dollars into the pockets of his cronies (including the tariff revenue).
Blocking your access to any sort of "sell my bond back" button while they do it seems prudent.
fastball 14 hours ago [-]
The last two admins already "stole" it via inflation. Do you have any idea how many dollars were printed in the last 5 years?
Cutting federal spending is obviously not the thing that will lead to more inflation (though tariffs certainly might, but that is not really the subject of the current discussion).
bongodongobob 10 hours ago [-]
And what caused that inflation? I seem to remember some sort of worldwide health issue.
fastball 5 hours ago [-]
The existence of a pandemic does not require printing an unprecendented amount of currency.
jaimex2 9 hours ago [-]
Yeah man, theyre using them to buy weed as we speak. Sorry.
jayshah5696 17 hours ago [-]
Do people know age of founding fathers or USA?
jeltz 15 hours ago [-]
Between 26 and 81.
jeffbee 17 hours ago [-]
If your point is that Elon Musk is overthrowing the government and these are his pals, then this statement makes sense. If you were trying to make any other point then this makes zero sense.
qwertox 10 hours ago [-]
How high are the chances of these young engineers getting highly lucrative offers from China and Russia just to tell them what they saw? They are set for life, and Elon Musk does not recognize that he enabled this.
zfg 8 hours ago [-]
Save America: don't buy Tesla.
tjpnz 8 hours ago [-]
Would be fucking terrified knowing that my personal employment records were in reach of these children. Who's the responsible adult in the room stopping them from "losing" a backup they've made or maintaining the non-compliant equipment they'll have brought in.
breadwinner 2 days ago [-]
> So this feels like a hostile takeover of the machinery of governments by the richest man in the world.
... and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Checks and balances have been neutralized.
TrackerFF 2 days ago [-]
Checks and balances were never tried in the first place. There must have been some assumption of decorum and decency, so strong that whatever loopholes are, have been left wide open.
Without a competent or impartial FBI and AG, there's literally zero chance these people will be investigated.
With a house and senate that fears the president, there will be no impeachment.
And even if they successfully manage to impeach the president, I'm 100% sure Trump will challenge it.
Yeah, buckle up and enjoy the ride. Gonna be 4 very, very long years.
breadwinner 2 days ago [-]
4 years? Trump has been talking about a third term.
I didn't think he would live this long, but he certainly couldn't survive another 8 years, right?... right?
breadwinner 19 hours ago [-]
So basically we are down to relying on the cycle of life as the ultimate check and balance. Hopefully he won't appoint one of his sons as his successor like in North Korea.
nailer 21 hours ago [-]
> Checks and balances have been neutralized.
That seems somewhat inverted - the elected government is creating checks and balances on unelected bureaucrats.
justin66 20 hours ago [-]
"Checks and balances" is a phrase that applies to the ability of the three coequal branches of government to hold one another in check.
triceratops 20 hours ago [-]
By sending in their own unelected bureaucrats
vixen99 9 hours ago [-]
You're in the wrong place for a comment like that. Don't even bother.
9283409232 21 hours ago [-]
Elon Musk was elected? News to me.
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
A radical improvement in the national debt at the hands of the world's most competent entrepeneur? I think many people were voting specifically for this. Things are going exactly as advertised.
maxerickson 15 hours ago [-]
You are conflating debt and deficit. Cutting the deficit by a few hundred billion dollars will barely impact the rate of growth of the debt, it's not a "radical improvement in the national debt", it's a modest reduction in spending.
amanaplanacanal 19 hours ago [-]
You are assuming that there will be a radical improvement. That is yet to be seen. I personally doubt it.
nailer 18 hours ago [-]
They're already projected to save hundreds of billions through the voluntary redundancy scheme implemented last week.
9283409232 17 hours ago [-]
This sounds like a number pulled out of Musk's ass.
nailer 15 hours ago [-]
It’s wages per year with IIRC 8% of the workers taking the deal.
binary_slinger 20 hours ago [-]
Trump was elected, and Elon was appointed by Trump?
breadwinner 20 hours ago [-]
Given the unprecedented power he is wielding he should have been confirmed by congress.
binary_slinger 19 hours ago [-]
This is proof that people will downvote to silence things they don't like. This is a gross abuse of the spirit of HN. The statement above was factual.
9283409232 20 hours ago [-]
So Musk is one of those unelected bureaucrats you're railing against?
xivzgrev 22 hours ago [-]
of course Musk recruits young ambitious kiddos - they work hard, for not much money, and don't question authority (because they're blinded by their ambition)
it's only when you get older that you see how rife this is for abuse. as a simple example, if DOGE knows influential Treasury recipients, then they could find ways to extort them. help us and you'll get your money on time. oppose us, and...
heck, I'm a treasury recipient (albeit a very small one), so if I take to X and start criticizing Trump or Musk, is my money at risk? Maybe not today but maybe within his term. Scary times.
dbbk 17 hours ago [-]
They're already being abused. They're being made to sleep at work.
llsf 21 hours ago [-]
Everyone likes to throw the "1st amendment" in the conversation, when it suites them... but I agree given the recent retaliatory tendencies, it is difficult to criticize the current administration, and effectively leaving it in its own echo chamber.
I am wondering if that partially explains how Musk radicalized himself lately. While I like the idea of absolute free speech, it kinda falls when the powerful are retaliatory... and kinda loose with the rule of law.
While I get the idea of "the bureaucracy" having its own life sometimes getting in a way of change, and the President willing to get more done, faster. But the fact that the bureaucrats do not carring on sometimes is because they follow a due process.
Now with those young men taking the control of the $6T/yr, this is a tremendous power. Even unintentionally, a mistake could have dire consequences.
rqtwteye 21 hours ago [-]
Dictators always liked to exploit the idealism of young people. The Nazis had the Hitler youth, China had the Red Guards, most prison guards for the Khmer Rogue were teenagers. They happily did the dirty work and could be discarded easily once not useful anymore.
I would all be for scrutinizing what government does but you can't just go around and cut everything you don't understand within 15 minutes. And I bet they will keep the moon and Mars programs going.
thrance 21 hours ago [-]
For sure, Musk and his friends will keep their billions of dollars government contracts. No inefficiency there, surprisingly.
juujian 22 hours ago [-]
Who knows. If you happen to mention any words that are on the CDC's new forbidden words list, maybe you will fall victim to the next Ctrl+f search these guys run.
ctrlp 22 hours ago [-]
It's also only when you get older that you see how rife the existing system is for "abuse" (if you want to call it that). Maybe the young upstarts have other motives for dismantling the existing system than simply blind ambition, especially if the existing system is set up with entrenched patronage networks that are basically inaccessible to the "young ambition kiddos".
Your example is pretty unpersuasive. It is already that case that "influential Treasury recipients" are called upon to "help" those in power. How else can you explain the various volte face moves by seemingly apolitical economic actors. I think the kiddos might finally be getting wise to how the game is played and how it is rigged.
__loam 21 hours ago [-]
These "kiddos" are committing crimes.
bdangubic 21 hours ago [-]
so were some folk that did some bad things on Jan 6… :)
ctrlp 21 hours ago [-]
That's so naive. "Show me the man, I'll show you the crime."
hoseja 10 hours ago [-]
Advance Publications needs to be stopped.
jimkleiber 11 hours ago [-]
Can we please call it DGE so as not to pump the crypto coin?
If they are accessing TS/SCI information and places like SCIFs have they filled out their SF-86? Are any of them dual nationals and do they have any ties or vulnerabilities to hostile foreign states?
Basic questions given the enormous access they are being given, far beyond frankly any handful of people have generally had in US government history.
Also, they have apparently plugged in their own private server at OPM. Has this already been compromised by Chinese/ Russian agents? Has the NSA had a look?
throw0101c 21 hours ago [-]
> If they are accessing TS/SCI information and places like SCIFs have they filled out their SF-86?
Did the Mar-a-Lago workers who moved boxes fill out those forms?
There are class action lawsuits being organized on behalf of federal workers against this egregious data breach and let's hope to god they succeed.
ansmithz42 21 hours ago [-]
Simple answer: No.
yesco 20 hours ago [-]
Would contractors need to do any of this? Is DOGE using federal funds?
I'm not exactly clear on the situation but if they are just doing this for free and don't have access to confidential information, I could see that potentially being the key loophole here.
affinepplan 21 hours ago [-]
“Keep calm, they said on television. Everything is under control.
I was stunned. Everyone was, I know that. It was hard to believe. The entire government, just like that. How did they get in, how did it happen?
That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary. There wasn’t even any rioting in the streets. People stayed home at night, watching television, looking for some direction. There wasn’t even an enemy you could put your finger on…”
- The Handmaid's Tale
energy123 16 hours ago [-]
"Gradually and then suddenly" is how it always happens, whether that's the collapse of democracy or the collapse of dictatorship. You can't take it for granted just because it hasn't happened yet. And that 'suddenly' almost did happen on January 6th 2021 if not for the moral courage of Mike Pence. That same moral courage will be absent this time around given the lesson they learned on that day. Appoint loyalists.
zzzeek 20 hours ago [-]
Fortunately we have an enemy this time, Elon Musk. He's it. He's also really bad at hiding what he's doing.
18 hours ago [-]
18 hours ago [-]
morkalork 17 hours ago [-]
I don't think he cares? Seems like he's happy to fill the role publicly. It appears to be on purpose like a wrestler turning heel or a gamer drawing aggro on a mob. Society of the spectacle indeed.
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
I think he is very bored an finds this very exciting.
niceice 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
Trasmatta 17 hours ago [-]
This is such a bizzare post. You trust him to be transparent because he Tweets a lot and holds Twitter spaces? Is the bar really that low?
turtlesdown11 4 hours ago [-]
these posters have mastered doublespeak
bobsmooth 16 hours ago [-]
I trust him to be transparent because of his transparency? Yes.
ihumanable 16 hours ago [-]
Did you know that someone can tell lots of lies all the time. Telling a lot of lies all the time would look identical to transparency. Hell even just talking a lot about things that are true but are not at all important or your priorities would look like transparency.
Just because someone won't shut up doesn't mean they are telling you their true intentions.
I-M-S 13 hours ago [-]
Western politics deteriorated to a point at which liars who don't pretend they are anything else seem like an attractive choice.
Trasmatta 14 hours ago [-]
You trust him to be transparent because he says he's being transparent?
trealira 2 hours ago [-]
No, but they can't say that. You cannot trust them to choose rule of law over each other. They hate liberals that much.
courseofaction 15 hours ago [-]
The man lies about being good at video games. On twitter. The bar is very very low.
lynndotpy 18 hours ago [-]
Twitter requires an account to use, and when you sign up, you agree not to sue Twitter. In the United States, arbitration clauses are generally airtight. Even if you what Musk says is truthful and the whole truth -- and it's not -- those conditions alone are bad enough. That's not transparency.
TheAlchemist 17 hours ago [-]
Transparent ? He's just playing the same game that Trump - all smokes and mirrors.
He mastered the art of news manipulation and took it to the 21 century. And people are falling for it (I did too at some point). Tesla is one of the most secretive companies out there, and for a good reason. Musk is regularly saying outrageous lies, without any consequence. The FSD game has been going for 10 years. 10 YEARS.
Lookup Montana Sceptic case - the guy was exposing that Tesla was close to bankrupcy at the time (which Musk later confirmed). Musk, in all his transparency went after him, including threatening his boss.
The reality is that none of his companies are really profitable (yes I know, Tesla made some money in the past 3 years. They are valued as if they made 100x what they did), and all would be dead without government subsides.
zzzeek 17 hours ago [-]
He's regularly tweeting that he's cutting off funds that were congressionally approved by simply pressing "delete" on checks that are to be sent, which would be an extreme violation of federal law. It also contradicts everything else we're told where it's said that he has only "read only" access to the computer systems.
so if by "transparent" you mean "tweets all day about crimes he is committing, but we actually dont know if hes just bullshitting", then OK, overall, not that helpful!
UltraSane 15 hours ago [-]
Elon Musk has lied constantly about many things over the last 10 years and he is absolutely not trustworthy to unilaterally decide what is or isn't "government waste"
pietrrrek 19 hours ago [-]
I don't think that Elon Musk can be singled out as the source of these changes, he's didn't just magically appear lur of nowhere and start doing what he's doing.
Trasmatta 17 hours ago [-]
He bought the election and then gave himself an unelected role with extensive and unchecked power.
unification_fan 18 hours ago [-]
But he literally did
19 hours ago [-]
19 hours ago [-]
ActorNightly 18 hours ago [-]
>How did they get in, how did it happen?
Over half of US was apathetic and didn't vote.
You can blame the MAGA for everything that is happening, but they literally said this is what they were gonna do. Over half of the US, implicitly said, "Given all of that, and Kamala, it really doesn't matter who is the president".
Which is worse than MAGA IMO
eps 18 hours ago [-]
> Over half of US was apathetic and didn't vote.
Not true. Voter turnout was between 59% and 64%.
UltraSane 16 hours ago [-]
That is still terrible.
plandis 15 hours ago [-]
This is part of the strategy. The GOP has continually been disenfranchising voters.
Both parties engage in gerrymandering.
fastball 14 hours ago [-]
> The GOP has been....
> Both parties engage...
Seems weird to blame the GOP and then immediately point out that this is done by everyone.
tzs 10 hours ago [-]
They are talking about two different things.
One is gerrymandering, which is drawing district boundaries to build in an advantage for your party. Both parties do that.
The other is trying to disenfranchise people. The GOP have been the ones doing most of that.
fastball 5 hours ago [-]
How has the GOP been disenfranchising voters beyond gerrymandering?
And please don't say voter ID, nobody is disenfranchised by voter ID.
Reducing the number of polling places in districts that tend to not vote Republican causing very long lines for voting. When it takes hours standing in line, often outdoors in bad weather, it discourages voting. Add to that laws in many states that criminalize providing food or water to people in such lines and it is even more discouraging.
Prosecuting people for innocent mistakes while voting. E.g., Crystal Mason [1]. Or Hervis Rogers [2].
In the Rogers case he was convicted of burglary in 1995 and was in prison until being paroled in 2004. His parole ended in June 2020. He didn't know that he was ineligible to vote, and voted in the Democratic primary in March 2020. The Texas legislature did pass a bill in 2007 that required the Department of Criminal Justice to notify people who had been in custody of their voting rights situation, but Governor Perry vetoed it.
Texas attorney general Paxton had him arrested and prosecuted. Bail was set at $100000. Eventually the case was thrown out because the attorney general does not have the authority to unilaterally prosecute voter cases. He has to get approval from local country prosecutors.
In nearly all these cases the prosecutors are very disproportionately prosecuting minorities and women.
Same with processes to restore voting rights for felons. See Rick Scott's handling of petitions to restore voting rights in Florida [3].
> And please don't say voter ID, nobody is disenfranchised by voter ID.
There are in fact a lot of US adults without an ID that works for their state's voter ID laws and would have a hard time getting such an ID because of cost (monetary and/or time). Here's a relatively recent report on the number who lack ID [4].
Yes, I know that most state voter ID laws require there to be no cost or fee to obtain the ID from the state but there are often significant costs to obtain the documents required to apply for the ID. Furthermore the offices that can process the application are often far away from where the people without ID live, and only accept applications during limited weekday hours. That can mean having to take unpaid time off from work and finding a way to get to that office. In reality that all can add up to over a $100.
If it was actually about election security and not intended to disenfranchise legal voters the voter ID laws would include provisions to make it easy to obtain ID without those burdens described above.
Here's a link to a comment that contains a dozen links with a lot more detail [5].
Voter turnout hasn't significantly changed in 100 years, how is that the cause to point to?
PartiallyTyped 18 hours ago [-]
let us not forget all the attempts at disenfranchisement, destruction of ballots by MAGA, voter intimidation, and all that.
hn_throwaway_99 16 hours ago [-]
This is the part I'm curious about. Trump may be many things, but lacking transparency around his motives and actions is not one of them. As you say, he is doing basically exactly what he said he would.
So what I'm curious about is whether anyone who voted for Trump, and especially not the hard core MAGA folks but more the "The Dems suck, prices are too high" folks that shifted toward Trump in 2024 vs previous elections, are surprised/angered/scared by his actions. If so, what was their thought process?
I'm especially curious how they feel about Musk's role in all this. I just can't wrap my head around people that were "drain the swamp" nativists are cool with an unelected foreign-born billionaire having free reign, essentially unaccountably, to do whatever he wants to any federal department. If somebody told me in 2010 that this would happen in 2025 I would tell tell them that they are nuts. If the Dems had done anything 1/10th as egregious, Republicans would be apoplectic, and rightfully so.
lunarboy 3 hours ago [-]
There's no point in wondering this. Soros is swamp but Musk is not? There's just no rational, two neurons connecting there. It's just their side bad, my side good brainwashing.
skulk 15 hours ago [-]
> I just can't wrap my head around people that were "drain the swamp" nativists are cool with an unelected foreign-born billionaire having free reign, essentially unaccountably, to do whatever he wants to any federal department.
Go on Twitter or any other site that doesn't ban a certain flavor of discourse. Observe how much glee is being expressed towards negative emotions of others (such as "libs" or marginalized people). That's the point.
hn_throwaway_99 15 hours ago [-]
Again, I don't think that's really the whole story. For the 35-40% of the electorate that is hard core MAGA, sure, and for the smaller percentage of "terminally online" Twitter people, moreso. But for the folks who really were just unsatisfied with the direction of the country, didn't like the Dems, wanted to send a protest vote over Gaza, etc. - what are those people thinking/feeling?
14 hours ago [-]
bbqfog 2 hours ago [-]
I'm thinking the same thing that I was thinking when Biden was president, that Israel has corrupted our entire government. Nothing that's happening here even approaches what we've been enabling in Gaza, so if you weren't upset about that, it seems strange to be up in arms about what Trump is doing. I'd say it's a double standard that places way more value on the lives of Americans than those outside our borders.
Aachen 14 hours ago [-]
> Go on Twitter or any other site that doesn't ban a certain flavor of discourse.
I just don't understand where people even get this idea. Is it the repetition and perpetuation of it that makes so many people believe it? We are and have always been allowed to have whatever opinions we wanted on any of the regular platforms, so long as it doesn't affect the rights of others (so there's a line at racism, calling for violence, and advertising for scams for example). There has never been a "flavor ban" unless one's flavor is KKK
hn_throwaway_99 11 hours ago [-]
> We are and have always been allowed to have whatever opinions we wanted on any of the regular platforms, so long as it doesn't affect the rights of others
If only it were that simple, because that's demonstrably not true. I'll give you a perfect example that was made clear by recent events.
Before last month, it was against Meta's rules to say that being LGBT was a mental illness. Similarly, you couldn't say people had a mental illness due to their religion.
But by this point I think it should be pretty clear that, in many respects, what we define as a "mental illness" is not some hard and fast rule, it's largely what we see as beyond the norm of socially acceptable boundaries at any given time.
I am gay. For someone else to have an opinion that being gay is a mental illness is a perfectly valid opinion, and it doesn't infringe on my rights (as long as they're not advocating for locking me up or whatever). I literally see no need to prohibit people from expressing the valid opinion that my being gay is a mental illness (I may think you're an asshole, but being a jerk certainly isn't banned on the Internet).
So when Meta announced their policy change to allow more "free speech", at first I was like "Ok, cool". I only became livid when I read the policy and saw that it's still against their rules to say people in "protected groups" have a mental illness except for a specific carve out for gay and trans people. F that. So I have to pretend all of the completely absurd religious nonsense about believing some sky fairy is out there and randomly does things like performing miracles (but for some reason never obvious enough to actually be miraculous) is not a sign of mental illness, but being gay is? Yeah, free speech my ass.
Point being, in your comment you have basically made an arbitrary division between what "whatever opinions" are valid, and what counts as e.g. racism, and pretend that it's a clear line.
skulk 14 hours ago [-]
> advertising for scams
> racism
these are examples of flavors I'm talking about. I should have said "flavors" instead of flavor.
tempestn 9 hours ago [-]
It basically comes down to ignorance. Most people don't have the time, inclination, and/or capacity to evaluate political platforms or the competence of individual politicians. They just decide based on heuristics or "vibes". Trump seems confident and strong. Harris doesn't seem to stand for anything much besides the status quo. They don't like that there was inflation under Biden, and Trump is the opposite of Biden. They don't necessarily like Trump's attitude, but figure they don't have to like him as long as he gets the job done. That's roughly the level of thinking that's happening, in the cases where there's much thinking at all, and people aren't just voting the way their friends, family, and neighbors all vote.
Basically this is a fundamental flaw of democracy, that you leave the most important decision in the hands of the median citizen, who has no particular aptitude for making it. Of course, other systems of government have their own flaws. Like Churchill said, democracy's the worst form of government, except for all the others. (Though I would argue that the particular structure of the American democratic system is especially flawed.)
Aachen 15 hours ago [-]
> Trump may be many things, but lacking transparency around his motives and actions is not one of them.
That's not the perception I have. Between changing opinions 180° for no discernible reason (besides reports/speculation of money changing hands, but it's not given as the reason so that's hardly transparent) and most actions being in the short-term interest only of himself, it doesn't strike me as though everyone is aware that voting for him is going to make their future worse (exceptions may include some of the ultra rich affected by the same short term gains as himself). What I hear on this side of the pond is that he also e.g. denies knowing the people who wrote project 2025 and the plan being ridiculous, then (I checked Wikipedia to see what came of it) "nominated several of the plan's architects and supporters to positions in his administration" and it was found that "nearly two-thirds of his executive actions 'mirror or partially mirror' proposals from Project 2025." (Wikipedia, last paragraph of article lede on project 2025)
I'm curious how you see it, since you might be more into USA politics than me (most people are). Doesn't he change opinion most of the time and am I just hearing of the exceptions? Are his denials regarding project 2025 seen as obvious lies and thus deemed transparent that this open-secretly is the plan known to everyone? Or do you see it this way for another reason?
hn_throwaway_99 2 hours ago [-]
Sure, Trump flip flops all the time (in his previous term he negotiated the most recent trade agreement with Canada and Mexico that replaced NAFTA, touted it as a uniquely awesome trade deal, https://trumpwhitehouse.archives.gov/briefings-statements/pr..., and now is the one ripping it up), and he lies every other word.
But my point is that behavior is completely predictable at this point, and if anyone is shocked by what he's done so far, they haven't been paying attention. Stuff like:
1. His extreme narcissism, and the fact that loyalty is a one-way street with him.
2. His desire for revenge
3. 0 respect for any governmental norms
4. His ability to bend (or break) the law to suit his needs. Since the Supreme Court granted him complete immunity for any official acts, and since it's so obvious that Congress are completely feckless at this point, he is essentially unconstrained by law.
When you ask "Are his denials regarding project 2025 seen as obvious lies and thus deemed transparent" I would say absolutely. But of course, when people are angry about the direction of things, they tend to want to believe the stuff they want to believe ("Trump will get in there and shake things up!") and minimize the things they don't ("Trump will shut down programs and departments I depend upon").
bbqfog 16 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
remich 16 hours ago [-]
Cool. Hope you enjoy everything you helped bring about.
bbqfog 2 hours ago [-]
I'm not in the Democratic party and had no role in defining their platform. What we are experiencing is 1/100th the pain the Democrats inflicted on Palestinians.
behnamoh 16 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
jzb 15 hours ago [-]
This is such a toxic load of crap. Kamala actually would take the oath of office seriously and wouldn't be busy dismantling the government for her own gain.
affinepplan 15 hours ago [-]
this is just propaganda. did you ever listen to her speak? or are you repeating what you read on Breitbart
behnamoh 14 hours ago [-]
I did, and tbh, I found her bland and void of any new ideas that weren't already tried in the past 4 years.
Thorentis 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
nozzlegear 19 hours ago [-]
I struggle to remember the last time that anyone who wasn't made of straw said to trust the mainstream media.
l0t0b0r0s 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
ihumanable 16 hours ago [-]
The handmaid's tale is a book, a work of fiction about politics.
Many works of fiction provide political commentary.
There's no actual invisible hand of the free market either, just some pop-culture metaphor by some Scottish guy.
niceice 19 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
nooyurrsdey 16 hours ago [-]
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not trolling.
3 reasons come to mind -
1. There's a vast and profound difference between trimming inefficiencies ("cutting waste") and eliminating a valuable function. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
2. This entire administration and its main actors have given zero reason to assume what they are doing is in good faith. In fact, quite the opposite they have incited worry that their motivations are not honest.
3. They are doing this with a shocking lack of oversight, on their own terms.
fastball 14 hours ago [-]
1. The baby in this analogy is not defined objectively. Both sides disagree about which is the baby and which is the bathwater. I can see both sides here. For example, I think USAID is doing a lot of good work all over the world, but I also don't think a country with such a huge deficit should be spending money like that. Put on your own oxygen mask before you help those around you.
2. What type of actions/behaviors would lead you to believe this is being done in good faith? That seems somewhat hard to demonstrate when the other side almost universally assumes you never do anything in good faith.
3. This is the fault of our government structure since always and specifically our Congress over the last many decades, which has ceded more and more of the actual running of government to unelected civil servants who technically fall under the umbrella of the Executive branch. If we wanted to prevent things like this from being done, we should've had an actual civil service ala the UK, which although it falls under their Executive branch, it is not unilaterally controlled by it (e.g. the Civil Service Commission prevents the PM from just doing whatever he wants).
As a secondary note, oversight in this case seems somewhat hard to achieve, given the usual problem of "who watches the watchers?" If you think some part of the government is performing poorly and that this is systemic, who do you trust to provide oversight that might not themselves have ulterior motives to preserve the status quo?
a_puppy 10 hours ago [-]
Everyone deserves a presumption of good faith by default. But Trump has a long history of dishonesty and lawbreaking, culminating in an attempted self-coup in 2020. At some point, he doesn't deserve a presumption of good faith anymore. And he passed that point a long, long time ago.
This is perhaps the single biggest disconnect I see between Democrats and Republicans right now. To Democrats, Trump is "the man who attempted a self-coup", and everything he does is viewed in that light. Whereas Republicans seem to think that it just wasn't a big deal that Trump tried to overturn the 2020 election.
fastball 5 hours ago [-]
How exactly did Trump attempt a self-coup? What words or actions (on his part) would you say qualify for that description?
There were all sorts of bad intentions on the part of the rioters/coupers/whatever on January 6th, but AFAIK there is very little evidence to indicate these people were directed by Trump in any meaningful way.
sapphicsnail 18 hours ago [-]
What makes you think that's what they're actually doing?
UltraSane 16 hours ago [-]
Because that is just a lie to give cover for their real goals. Which is nothing less than a coup. Musk and DOGE have absolutely no legal authority to stop payments authorized by congers and no right to access the federal payment system.
15 hours ago [-]
a_puppy 10 hours ago [-]
Because of Trump's history. Trump attempted a self-coup in 2020 by trying to overturn the election. This attempt was foiled because many judges, public officials, etc. resisted it, including many Republicans. Now Trump is back in power, and Democrats are very nervous about anything that looks like "Trump packing the government with loyalists" or "Trump trying to gain more power over public officials", because that would make it easier for Trump to attempt a future self-coup.
In short: Framing this as "cutting waste, fraud, and abuse" is assuming good faith, but given Trump's history, he doesn't deserve a presumption of good faith.
(Secondary to that: There's a difference between "cutting waste, fraud, and abuse" versus "shutting down entire functions of government without a replacement". Look at Musk trying to shut down USAID, for example. If Musk wanted to "cut waste, fraud, and abuse", that would mean "reforming USAID to achieve the same outcomes while spending less money". Instead, Musk is proposing to eliminate USAID entirely. Even if not for the self-coup angle, that's clearly not just "cutting waste, fraud, and abuse". Foreign aid is established by Congress, and only Congress has the constitutional authority to eliminate that aid.)
pavlov 18 hours ago [-]
Because it’s happening outside of any legal oversight. One man is telling you “this is waste and fraud and abuse”, and you’re just supposed to believe it.
There also happens to be lots of historical precedent to this kind of aggressive purges that aim to install loyalists in government, not least Germany in 1933.
(Nazis also made a big deal out of stopping “sexual deviants.” Studies of trans people and their history were the first books they burned. And now the CDC in USA is removing that information everywhere they can. A strange coincidence.)
davidmurdoch 15 hours ago [-]
IMO, I think they're really just glorified accountants being propped up by a mix of Musk's ego and the left's seething hatred of Musk and anything trump touches:
“Glorified accountant” is essentially how Adolf Eichmann described himself.
It’s not a get-out-of-jail card if you’re just crunching some numbers while following illegal orders.
davidmurdoch 5 hours ago [-]
Why do you think what DOGE is doing isn't legal?
18 hours ago [-]
18 hours ago [-]
oblio 18 hours ago [-]
Because the current cuts are basically like that joke about the person looking for their lost keys where the light is better instead of where they lost the keys.
educasean 15 hours ago [-]
If Biden created a branch of the government called "Freedom, Liberty, and Happiness for America" with enormous funding and filled it with his allies and sycophants with dubious goals, would you say its critics are "against freedom and liberty"? Why would anyone be opposed unless you hate America?
6 hours ago [-]
jmyeet 18 hours ago [-]
If you believe there's any cutting of waste, you are woefully misinformed. This is a kleptocracy. The only thing that will happen here is mass looting of the public purse by the wealthiest and the elimination of any form of progressive taxation or wealth redistribution to those that aren't wealthy.
If we were really concerned about waste, the first and only place to look is the $1T+ we spend every year on the military.
niceice 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
ActorNightly 18 hours ago [-]
>It has been a kleptocracy for decades and they've been looting all of us with no resistence or accountability.
And yet, the average life in US has gotten better and better under democratic rule, while worse under republican rule.
The problem with people like you is that you are so bought into a narrative of "government bad" that any sort of mistake or non optimal that the government does is seen by you as corruption.
And then when you have people like Musk, Rogan, Hotz, and other prophet wannabes that amplify that messaging, it solidifies that in your mind and you move become farther and farther from reality, until you are solidly in MAGA land where anything liberal is automatically bad, even if your side does the exact same thing.
There is a shitload of government bloat and inefficiencies, but these things need to be trimmed over a long period of time, not by Musk style of breaking things without giving a fuck about what he breaks.
niceice 18 hours ago [-]
Most of the metrics that matter have gotten worse over the past decades. Under both democrats and republicans. Education, physical and mental health, cost of living, healthcare costs, wealth inequality, I could go on.
When you see all the smart people like Musk, Hotz, Andreesen, Ackman, getting involved and changing their minds, maybe it's time to reconsider your priors too.
hansvm 16 hours ago [-]
People like Musk and Andreesen getting involved are evidence that you're about to see fraud and overreach that concentrates power and resources in their hands instead of the American people. No matter what you think about Trump and whether he's actually trying to do a good thing, those people getting on board are not a good sign.
turtlesdown11 4 hours ago [-]
> smart people like Musk, Hotz, Andreesen, Ackman
this line got me to laugh aloud, congrats
hedora 15 hours ago [-]
Go read Trump's sovereign wealth fund announcement from today. The plan is to take all the money from the tariffs (and other unspecified actions he takes, probably including the stuff DOGE does), and then spend it on private investments of his choosing.
So, he's already announced you'll be paying 10-25% tax on all imported goods moving forward, and that he'll personally loot the revenue.
piva00 18 hours ago [-]
You're too far gone...
almostgotcaught 18 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
kenjackson 18 hours ago [-]
They just create new accounts. But anyone who thinks sending home all the inspector generals is cutting waste/fraud is clearly arguing in bad faith. Unfortunately, I've argued this was the case well before the election -- but everyone told me, "only Trump seems to know this is about grocery prices!".
> It’s impossible to make a point with people like you
What a coincidence! I think exactly the same about you!
latency-guy2 10 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
camillomiller 9 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
bobsmooth 16 hours ago [-]
Now that the Bad Guys™ are in power everything they do is evil in the most villainous way.
cookszn 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
affinepplan 20 hours ago [-]
life imitates art
vosper 20 hours ago [-]
Which art? The one that's cherry-picked? I read Harry Potter but I haven't seen too many wizards or dragons around lately.
Cthulhu_ 20 hours ago [-]
The Handmaid's Tale, a good book, you should read it sometime. Harry Potter is also interesting in that it tells a lot about its author and her world view.
What are you trying to argue anyway?
vosper 17 hours ago [-]
> The Handmaid's Tale, a good book, you should read it sometime.
Yes, I've read it, excellent book.
> What are you trying to argue anyway?
That "life imitates art" is not a generally true statement.
skyyler 20 hours ago [-]
What a fascinating conversation we're having here.
Are you unaware that Harry Potter is about a Facist takeover of the wizarding world by people who insist on genetic purity and believe that mixed breeds and non-wizards should be wiped out, and done primarily by a nonviolent coup of the governing body of the wizarding world?
courseofaction 15 hours ago [-]
Hilariously naive? Are you aware that fiction writers are usually demonstrating something about the real world? Have you ever read a thought experiment? Do you discount blueprints because they're not made from concrete and steel? Get outta here.
freddi333 19 hours ago [-]
This is like a Christian quoting scripture to an atheist, there are real world parallels of current events to draw from which carry substantially more weight.
netbioserror 19 hours ago [-]
Vacuous cliches this painfully stupid need to stay in high school theatre clubs where they belong.
megous 15 hours ago [-]
What naive person does anything voluntary for the richest man on Earth?
Jiro 3 hours ago [-]
Naming these people this way is a blatant invitation for harassment by signal-boosting their identities, even if technically their names are already known. This is one step away from doxing and we should not support it.
mythrwy 20 hours ago [-]
Good. These guys, in addition to obviously being very smart, are young and don't have a lot of baggage in government or industry.
I think they are perfect for tracing down what has been going on and finding where inefficiencies and/or corruption has been occurring. Anyone who has issue with rooting out corruption and inefficiency isn't in the right.
Of course what is done with what they find will not be in their hands.
TrackerFF 8 hours ago [-]
How would they know?
I've worked on billion dollar defense projects, and have supervised plenty of smart junior consultants from top consulting firms (McKinsey, etc.) - guiding them through processes, while they're digging through data.
Believe it or not, but you don't know what you don't know, and domain expertise is absolutely crucial. Slashing things you think are inefficiencies can lead to some serious footguns.
And I fully expect Musk to value speed over precision.
tombert 16 hours ago [-]
I think part of the concern is that Elon Musk is still the CEO of or has strong financial interest in a lot of companies, some of which get government contracts (e.g. SpaceX).
Finding out corruption and inefficiency is fine, but I think a lot of people are skeptical that that's the actual goal of this "advisory board". How likely is it that Elon is going to find anything inefficient about SpaceX? Tesla? What's to stop him from using this data to haggle better deals from the government paying for his projects?
It's entirely possible that SpaceX is efficient enough, but it's still a conflict of interest. I don't think a guy who owns and runs a company that competes on government contracts should be in charge of determining which parts of the government is efficient.
mythrwy 15 hours ago [-]
Ok, but what does that have to do with the nature of the young guys charged with the analysis?
I read through your past comments. It's obvious to me what you believe. And I don't agree with your worldview but not sure that matters. If you don't like Musk and don't like Trump, fine, I get it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like either of them in person either, and, they both have vested interests on that we can agree. You know who else has vested interests? The people benefiting from waste, fraud and abuse. The people who have been directing public funds into propaganda and a black hole. I'd like to see western civilization persist. If you feel differently that's a value judgement and it's fine. But hearing kveltching and ridiculous statements from liberal midwits on every single policy article is getting really really old and it's shitting up this site. This is what is going to happen. And it's long overdue.
tombert 13 hours ago [-]
Ok, so you acknowledge that there's a conflict of interest, and you still think that Elon Musk is the only human who can possibly find government inefficiency?
I have some less polite ways of saying this so I'll keep to myself, but that seems like a profoundly ignorant viewpoint. There are 330 million Americans, and the only person that could possibly find government inefficiency is a guy with extremely clear and obvious conflicts of interest? Ridiculous, I do not believe that you actually believe that.
I personally think that it is extraordinarily stupid to get someone who routinely gets government contracts to be in charge of determining what is "efficient". I personally wouldn't choose any active CEO, but even if you believe that somehow a businessman is going to be better, couldn't you choose a CEO that doesn't have federal contracts? Even if it was a conservative, even if it were someone who I absolutely despised, it would still be a better choice than Elon Musk. I genuinely cannot think of a worse choice for this project than Elon, honestly.
My distaste for Trump and Musk has nothing to do with whether I'd "like them in person". I already dislike most people and I am quite confident I would not like any politician if I met them in person. I do not make my political decisions based on "how much I would like hanging out with them".
I think Trump and Elon are profoundly stupid people, and they're kind of a match made in heaven, which I find very dangerous.
"Western Civilization persisting" shouldn't start with an dubiously-legal "department" with clear conflicts of interest. This shouldn't be controversial.
ModernMech 15 hours ago [-]
> Ok, but what does that have to do with the nature of the young guys charged with the analysis?
Because the only reason they are doing it is because they don't know enough about their legal exposure to know they should not. They aren't qualified to handle this data. I thought the whole thing was we were going to have a meritocracy.
mythrwy 14 hours ago [-]
And we do! Also, I don't think the court scam will work this time. Even Marc Elias realizes the implications at this point.
a_puppy 9 hours ago [-]
I think it would be great for the federal government to be more efficient and less corrupt. For example, let's talk about USAID. It would be great if DOGE could make USAID more efficient, to accomplish the most possible good with the money allocated by Congress.
So far, that's not what DOGE appears to be doing. Rather than "rooting out corruption and inefficiency", DOGE appears to be cutting government spending that Musk disagrees with.
And that's unconstitutional! The executive branch doesn't have the constitutional authority to unilaterally cut a program established by Congress. If Congress allocated $X billion for foreign aid to country Y, the executive branch must disburse that aid.
Furthermore, speaking of corruption: Both Trump and Musk have major conflicts of interest. Prior to Trump, presidents were expected to divest business interests and put their assets in a blind trust; but Trump refused to do so. And SpaceX is a major federal contractor; if the head of a major federal contractor is _also_ the biggest supporter of the incoming president, the conflict of interest is obvious.
As you said, anyone who has an issue with rooting out corruption isn't in the right. So surely you're alarmed by these conflicts of interest, right? Don't you agree that Musk should either fully divest from SpaceX, or step away from politics?
SubiculumCode 20 hours ago [-]
Are they the cause of the rumored fire in a NIH server room?
ck2 2 days ago [-]
Musk could not get US Security Clearance
He cannot enter certain facilities or meetings at SpaceX because of that.
Yet now he is bypassing that requirement.
None of these people are elected or confirmed by the Senate and they are doing extremely sensitive things to the government
That's not how any of this is supposed to work by law.
rbanffy 2 days ago [-]
National secrets shouldn’t have been kept in a bathroom in Mar-a-Lago and, yet, here we are.
logifail 22 hours ago [-]
Q: Why are there (still) classified documents at USAID?
"U.S.A.I.D. was created in 1961 to help the United States win the “hearts and minds” of citizens in poor countries through civic action, economic aid and humanitarian assistance. As a cold war policy tool, the agency was, at times, used as a front for C.I.A. operations and operatives. Among the most infamous examples was the Office of Public Safety, a U.S.A.I.D. police training program in the Southern Cone that also trained torturers."
> The information about USAID’s development and humanitarian assistance programs is intentionally open and public; to perform the agency’s mission, USAID employees work directly with non-government organizations, contractors, United Nations organizations and host country governments. However, in order for USAID employees to effectively and efficiently carry out the agency’s programs, they often must have access to sensitive and sometimes classified information provided by other federal departments and agencies. Such information may pertain to U.S. foreign policy and relations as well as security conditions and threat data.
readthenotes1 22 hours ago [-]
Nor in a garage, nor in unsecured university offices
albroland 14 hours ago [-]
musk holds TS clearance but not SCI
TrackerFF 8 hours ago [-]
Musk holding any level security clearance is farcical. It's the type of DEI that they're fighting so hard.
littlestymaar 21 hours ago [-]
Given how useful USAID has been for the CIA, if the “deep state” was a real thing, Elon would have at best a few more days to live.
sangnoir 20 hours ago [-]
> if the “deep state” was a real thing
If it wasn't, he made it real. Elon is the deep state. An unelected individual who has set up a no-oversight machinery with hands on the levers of state power, and using them to his own ends, independent of public benefit. Every accusation is a confession.
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
tombert 17 hours ago [-]
He's not "openly posting" about it, he's trying to spin it in his favor. There's a difference.
tines 20 hours ago [-]
And how much did you pay for the bridges?
spaceman_2020 21 hours ago [-]
As someone from the developing world where USAID regularly funded organizations that were often divisive and insidiously subversive, can’t say that I’ll be unhappy to see this thing dismantled.
lukev 21 hours ago [-]
But that has to be an act of congress. Congress creates and funds government departments. The president can't just dismantle them by fiat.
That he's (apparently) tasking people to do so who don't even have the requisite experience or clearances is just adding insult to injury.
19 hours ago [-]
ljsprague 20 hours ago [-]
But don't you get it? From his point of view, the Constitution is upholding bad things; he couldn't care less about it.
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
The constitution is not meant to uphold the citizens of foreign nations. Dont you get it?
cjbgkagh 21 hours ago [-]
It seems more like a CIA civil war to me, CIA cut outs on both sides.
karmakurtisaani 20 hours ago [-]
The recent events should finally put to rest all the JFK conspiracies. Messing up with the government at this scale should indeed put you into some 3-letter agency hitlist.
jaimex2 9 hours ago [-]
Oh this sounds like it'll be a balanced, well researched article based on merits.
I'll then leave a comment here about a guy that knew a guy that heard from another guy that Elon almost ruined a company his aunt worked at.
"between 19 and 24" - that would mean not even college educated?
JFC, I was a complete dumbass in my 20s.
kccoder 13 hours ago [-]
As is very nearly every person, including these children.
fullshark 17 hours ago [-]
Watch some leftist billionaire now cut them blank checks to get them away from DOGE. The Cyberpunk future is here.
Whatarethese 1 days ago [-]
They are adults. They work for the federal government. They deserve no privacy protections.
electriclove 21 hours ago [-]
I keep seeing a contradiction that I’m having a hard time explaining. On one hand, there are numerous comments saying that what these individuals are doing is illegal. On the other hand, there are comments saying they work for the federal government and so doxxing them is fair game.
If they work for the government, how is what they are doing illegal?
lostdog 13 hours ago [-]
Being an employee of the federal government doesn't give you access to everything. There are laws, passed by Congress, about who is allowed to do what.
kelnos 21 hours ago [-]
They don't actually work for the federal government. That's a big part of the problem. Trump has just given them access.
electriclove 21 hours ago [-]
I don’t doubt what you are saying about Trump giving them access. Do we know how he did that? I guess I’d like to understand how we know if it was legal or not.
kelnos 20 hours ago [-]
It's the other way around. It's not legal unless these people are under an executive branch department or agency, with department heads appointed by the president, and confirmed by the Senate.
These people have not all been vetted, hired, and granted security clearances appropriate to the level of access they've obtained.
All of this is illegal.
kragen 13 hours ago [-]
Interesting note:
> On Sunday, CNN reported that DOGE personnel attempted to improperly access classified information and security systems at the US Agency for International Development (USAID), and that top USAID security officials who thwarted the attempt were subsequently put on leave. The AP reported that DOGE personnel had indeed accessed classified material.
It's attracted a lot of attention that killing USAID has been such a high priority for these guys despite only being 1% of the budget and having a seemingly innocent humanitarian mission. But what's USAID doing that involves classified data? Distributing humanitarian aid shouldn't require any information whose disclosure would seriously disclose national security, should it? Presumably this means USAID has been used as cover for covert operations around the globe.
> William Blum has said that in the 1960s and early 1970s USAID has maintained "a close working relationship with the CIA, and Agency officers often operated abroad under USAID cover. (...) From 2010 to 2012, the agency operated ZunZuneo,[199] a social media site similar to Twitter in an attempt to instigate uprisings against the Cuban government. Its involvement was concealed in order to ensure mission success. The plan was to draw in users with non-controversial content until a critical mass is reached, after which more political messaging would be introduced. At its peak, more than 40,000 unsuspecting Cubans interacted on the platform.[199]
(There's a lot more there. Check it out if you haven't heard of this.)
So, if it's been a key part of the US's overseas covert operations for decades, why did it go into the wood chipper in a weekend? Did Elon Musk just fail to realize its importance to the US's worldwide influence?
With no evidence beyond the above, I think USAID was targeted because it's been a nucleus of the Intelligence Community's resistance to Trump consolidating his power.
etchalon 15 hours ago [-]
It is deeply telling that DOGE is relying on inexperienced anyone.
varsketiz 20 hours ago [-]
Curious european here. Do you think we will see some serious mass protests in big USA cities if this continues? By this I mean "reckless" action by Musk and Trump.
Night_Thastus 20 hours ago [-]
The vast majority of Americans either voted for this, or don't care.
Will there be some protests? Sure. Nothing will come of it, though. The only thing that will enact any real change is if big corporations start losing any profits due to all this upheaval, in which case they may put pressure to get things settled down.
accrual 18 hours ago [-]
A lot of voters didn't turn out, so it's not accurate to say most Americans voted for this. There's also the issue of Trump saying Musk helped him win two key states during his inauguration speech, which some consider just short of an admission to rigging the election.
Only something like 3% of the population needs to actively strike and protest to start affecting corporations.
kelnos 17 hours ago [-]
Abstaining from voting means "I am ok with whatever the rest of you decide". While that's not an active vote in favor, it's close enough.
I don't care about non-voters. If they don't care enough to vote, they're not worth considering when we try to assign "blame" for the current situation.
The American public voted for this, full stop.
fullshark 17 hours ago [-]
No one cares about protests even if they happen. Remember all the women's march / pussy hat protests? What a great instagram opportunity that was. They are chances for people to cosplay as "members of the resistance" as they live their day to day lives as urban PMC drones.
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
I marched in NYC against the war in Iraq; they didnt care then either.
int_19h 19 hours ago [-]
Maybe. The first test will be on February, 5, when there are scheduled protests in all state capitols. There's also https://generalstrikeus.com.
barbazoo 17 hours ago [-]
I'm a pessimist sometimes so I can't imagine any real uprising coming out of this. At the end of the day, people in the US have to pay the bills, people live beyond their means whether they know it or not, no one can afford to sacrifice any of their time to a real revolution save for a small minority.
krainboltgreene 17 hours ago [-]
Oh sweet, we're at the honeypot general strike stage of a Trump presidency. Glad we're just hoping trade union consciousness springs forth from the lowest union rate in american history.
anigbrowl 13 hours ago [-]
Yes. Lots of people in this thread have collective amnesia about 2020.
energy123 19 hours ago [-]
Only if there's inflation. If there's no inflation then people won't do anything. Most people don't know what's going on because they get their information from social media echo chambers. Truly a dystopia in the making.
wyager 20 hours ago [-]
This is exactly the type of thing that Trump said he wanted to do. Who is protesting that who wouldn't be unconditionally protesting Trump anyway? Plus, with the federal NGO money spigot cut off, a lot of the NGOs that organize protests are probably having operational problems.
whalesalad 20 hours ago [-]
"move fast and break things"
just imagine how insecure and fucked up their solutions will be? waiting for the S3 bucket that has global read permissions on a literal "select * from usa_citizens" dump of data.
UltraSane 16 hours ago [-]
Elon Musk and all of these DOGE employees should be arrested and charged with multiple violations of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. They have no need or right to access the federal payments system and no authority whatsoever to stop payments congress has approved.
malthaus 10 hours ago [-]
so musk re-invented mckinsey?
adamrezich 17 hours ago [-]
Man, these are some seriously impressive motherfuckers—my resume looks absolutely shameful compared to any one of them, and I'm over a decade older than they are.
pessimizer 18 hours ago [-]
There doesn't seem to be anything interesting in this article, it's simply a Red Channels style blacklist against young people who are auditing a government program. The only reason this was published is because Wired is an intelligence outlet (and has always been.) Otherwise, the publishing of random government auditors' uninteresting resumes would obviously be considered harassment (if not doxxing, like Musk barked.)
Really, all this article says is that if you are an auditor for the commission appointed by the president, we will make sure that this comes up in an aggressively negative way when somebody who you want to work for googles you. It's pure intimidation, masquerading as journalism. It's somehow worse than Bill Ackman hiring trucks with the names of college students protesting a genocide being blasted as antisemites. At least Bill Ackman isn't pretending to be a journalist.
edit: every single article by this "disinformation expert" has been an anti-Trump or anti-Musk article. She has no other beat.
talldayo 13 hours ago [-]
> if you are an auditor for the commission appointed by the president, we will make sure that this comes up in an aggressively negative way when somebody who you want to work for googles you.
You just archeologically unearthed the dictionary definition of accountability. If the people doing the auditing are a goon squad from corporate, what reasonable person should accept their results?
tyrrvk 22 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
dang 21 hours ago [-]
Please don't cross into personal attacks on Hacker News.
euroderf 22 hours ago [-]
Speaking of which, do these DOGE-drones go thru drug testing ? Does Elon ?
ctrlp 22 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
dang 21 hours ago [-]
Please don't respond to a bad comment by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse.
This is ridiculous. Any disagreement gets flagged and downvotes. Get control of your site, dang.
dang 12 hours ago [-]
That's not close to true, but even if it were, it doesn't make it ok for you to break the site guidelines. Commenters here need to stick to those regardless of what anyone else is doing. Otherwise, we just end up in a downward spiral, since everyone always feels like the other side started it and is doing it worse.
ctrlp 1 hours ago [-]
HN has fallen. It's infested with operatives and shills. Waving the site guidelines at me for offering a modicum of balance is the wrong way. Either ban all political commentary or let 'em cook. Putting me in a timeout for mild snark? It wasn't always like this.
jonnycomputer 2 days ago [-]
Can't believe this is flagged.
bathtub365 2 days ago [-]
It looks like there are people flagging literally every story related to DOGE.
johnnyanmac 2 days ago [-]
I'm not. Pretty sure at this point that anything about Musk that doesn't involve Tesla or SpaceX is just being impulsed flagged.
ddalex 1 days ago [-]
Time to flag SpaceX and Tesla too...
latexr 22 hours ago [-]
Not sure that’s necessary. I don’t recall the last Tesla story I saw that was positive.
imp0cat 12 hours ago [-]
Well, they brought the turn signal stalks back. That should count as a positive change.
johnnyanmac 1 days ago [-]
SpaceX would be a shame, but it's not like any tesla news these days makes did productive discussion.
relaxing 2 days ago [-]
Honest question: how do things get unflagged? Do users at some level gain vouch privileges?
johnnyanmac 2 days ago [-]
They 99.99999% of the time don't. I think only dang has that ability and he won't really step in unless there are some truly rouge actors.
dang 22 hours ago [-]
> unless there are some truly rouge actors
It's more a question of the article. What we're looking for includes: is the article not too repetitive of recent discussions? does it contain significant new information? is there a reasonable chance that it could support a substantive, thoughtful discussion, or is it too flamebaity/provocative? that kind of thing.
If anyone has a question that isn't answered at those links, I'd be happy to take a crack at it.
archagon 21 hours ago [-]
Can you tell if there's a concerted effort to flag Musk and DOGE related threads? I've seen threads go from nothing to [flagged][dead] in the course of 30 seconds after being up for 40 minutes, suggesting very spiky flagging behavior. This has come up a few times recently, for example: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42904148
(Of course, I could just be misunderstanding how flagging works on the site... maybe the state machine has to transition in order from regular -> [flagged][dead] -> [flagged] after vouching?)
dang 20 hours ago [-]
I haven't looked specifically at DOGE stories but from my general perspective, this is the same as what we see with all the hottest/most divisive topics—that is, it's the same with Musk in general, Trump in general, and Israel/Gaza, to name perhaps the 3 most in-that-category topics.
m2024 13 hours ago [-]
[dead]
minimaxir 1 days ago [-]
If a post is flagged-but-you-can-still-comment, then it can't be vouched.
If a post is flagkilled w/ comments disabled, then you can typically vouch.
dredmorbius 21 hours ago [-]
It's possible to vouch for stories and comments.
You can also email moderators at hn@ycombintor.com to request unflagging. I do that occasionally, with mixed results. (I've come to know which are long shots, and typically concede the point, but at least make the attempt.)
justin66 2 days ago [-]
If you use the vouch feature much, eventually they take it away from you. Same with upvoting and downvoting, but it all happens silently so most people don't notice.
relaxing 1 days ago [-]
That’s funny, I thought at one point I saw vouch link for comments, but no longer. I doubt I used it more than once. Does that mean it got taken away?
justin66 1 days ago [-]
I couldn't say for sure but... I think so? It's the same for me, I used to have it and now I don't.
I didn't see much misuse of vouching in your recent history so I've removed that penalty from your account now. But please make sure that the comments you're vouching for are respecting the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
zfg 20 hours ago [-]
Why don't you make such things transparent and clear on a user's account so they can see what you've done?
You're keen on reviewing a user's recent history, but provide no corresponding transparency to the user on what you've done.
dang 11 hours ago [-]
Because I'm scared of how much extra work it would create, and because it's the sort of frog-boiling bureaucratism that it is in the spirit of this site to avoid. I call it frog-boiling because it's easy for me to imagine that one day I would wake up and be horrified by the systems we had inadvertently let spring up around ourselves.
HN works best with informal systems, not formal ones. The informal contract around transparency is: people are welcome to ask questions and we always answer them, but we don't formally publish a moderation log or anything like that (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).
11 hours ago [-]
zfg 10 hours ago [-]
> I call it frog-boiling because it's easy for me to imagine that one day I would wake up and be horrified by the systems we had inadvertently let spring up around ourselves.
You're already removing the ability of users to vouch. That frog is boiled.
I'm saying tell them on their user page. Include a line that only they can see which says "can no longer vouch" or similar. That way they know what's happened instead of having to guess what's happened.
dang 22 hours ago [-]
It didn't get taken away. Not sure why you didn't see it where you expected to but there's no issue with your account.
relaxing 16 hours ago [-]
Thank you.
I didn’t realize the vouch link doesn’t show up in the main threads.
mostlysimilar 1 days ago [-]
I have been trying to bring Musk and DOGE topics to light all week and have lost the ability to vouch as a consequence.
dang 22 hours ago [-]
You haven't lost the ability to vouch.
freedomben 21 hours ago [-]
Meta note, but seriously thank you for being so transparent about this! It's a big part of why I love and trust HN
unsnap_biceps 22 hours ago [-]
You have to go to the specific comment (click on the timestamp) and vouch is available there.
22 hours ago [-]
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
Pure political posts are usually flagged. Go to Reddit.
anigbrowl 13 hours ago [-]
You just got here last year. This place has always been political.
It's in the guidelines that politics is not on topic here
nailer 21 hours ago [-]
Why? The article is provably false - these are demonstrably not inexperienced engineers.
andyg_blog 20 hours ago [-]
Please elaborate? I define experience in terms of mostly "time" spent on something. And I consider any engineer with less than 5 yrs of experience as "inexperienced" regardless of whether they are talented or not. I've met many talented, but inexperienced engineers who still needed redirecting.
segasaturn 22 hours ago [-]
Of course it's flagged, this site is an altar to worship at the feet of the American oligarchy. It's as rotten as the rest of Silicon Valley.
As JWZ put it:
"A venture capital company's fan club, finance-obsessed manchildren making the world worse"
I turned the flags off on this story 24 minutes before you posted this.
Care to revise your view?
segasaturn 21 hours ago [-]
Thanks for unflagging it Dang, I wish I could have seen it yesterday.
dang 21 hours ago [-]
I didn't see it yesterday either, otherwise I would have turned the flags off sooner.
But thanks for the kind reply—I confess I was expecting something else!
Edit: incidentally, (and not directing this at you personally!), if even one of the commenters spending their time complaining about flags on HN had let us know about this submission at hn@ycombinator.com, this would probably have happened earlier. I say "probably" because I haven't processed all the emails from the last 12 hours yet.
dredmorbius 21 hours ago [-]
For those sending emails:
- Include the post item in your subject line. That would be "42922647" for this particular story.
- Include some idea of what the problem is. For example, for a flagged story I'd have "vouch" as the first word of my subject, followed by the article title.
- I typically include the full article link (in body) and title (in subject) as insurance against my own fat-finger-fumbling.
- A brief description of the problem. E.g., "I'd like to vouch for this article".
My own typical emails are for titles (frequent), link indirection, preferred sources, and occasional mentions of flagrant violations of HN comment guidelines (flagging tends to pick those up most of the time).
For the latter, you can use the "replies" endpoint to see if a mod has previously responded to a given userID, e.g.:
(Yes, there's an admonishment in there if you dig back far enough, and I remember it.)
dredmorbius 14 hours ago [-]
Addition: Comments also have IDs (and are essentially the same as posts), and if you're referencing a specific comment or thread, that should similarly be highlighted in the email subject.
AnimalMuppet 21 hours ago [-]
dang, for my clarification, why are you so clearly in favor of this being unflagged?
I haven't been flagging these topics, but I have defended those who do, on the grounds of "not politics" and "leads to flamewar discussions". On the politics front, you have deliberately allowed more politics recently (or at least that's my perception) when you thought it was of general interest, or of tech interest. But the discussions are, perhaps less flame-full than expected, still somewhat incindiary (not least the discussions around flagging, with accusations up to being full-on fascists aimed at those who just don't want HN to be overrun by this).
So: What made it clear to you that this was something that should not be flagged?
dredmorbius 14 hours ago [-]
HN's guidance is that most but not all politics is off-topic:
It may have come to your attention that 1) there's been a fair bit of political activity of late 2) with impacts on YC, startups, and many of HN's readers, and 3) involving some notable individuals within the tech world.
Much of that argues to facilitate some discussion of at least a sampling of these stories. And this particular item has garnered a large number of both votes and comments. Slightly over the "flamewar" threshold (> 40 votes, comments > votes), but not in the extreme. The flamewar-detector heuristic is surprisingly accurate (I've gone through much of HN's front-page archive a couple of years ago), but not perfect. High-profile political discussions are among the more notable exceptions. Self-discussion of HN is the other (and AFAIR the most highly-ratioed high-placed story was one such item early in HN's life).
dang 11 hours ago [-]
I turned off the flags on this one because there hadn't been a thread specifically about DOGE personnel and there is a clear overlap between the people in the article and the interests of HN. I mostly mean the type of people, not the specific individuals, but at least one of them (the Vesuvius prizewinner) did work which was the subject of major threads here.
Personally I would rather the article had been more neutral and more informative, but beggars can't be choosers.
Btw, you do realize that not all politics is off topic on HN, yes? I'm pretty sure you must have seen some of my explanations about this over the years, but if not, please take a look at some of https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so....
All of the following can be (indeed are) true at once: (1) most political stories are off topic here; (2) we don't want the frontpage to be dominated by politics; (3) some political stories are on topic; (4) significant and interesting things are going on right now, even though it's hard for most people to stay curious about them.
Have I clarified sufficiently?
AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago [-]
Yes.
That is, for the moment. You're trying to walk a balance, and I tend to drift, over time, off on one side or the other.
nailer 2 hours ago [-]
Heya! You had some excellent points earlier:
> What we're looking for includes: is the article not too repetitive of recent discussions? does it contain significant new information? is there a reasonable chance that it could support a substantive, thoughtful discussion, or is it too flamebaity/provocative?
This article is a personal attack on individual engineers that are evidently very talented.
There's now a bunch of people using HN for personal insults in the comments.
I think the flags were warranted and turning them off was unnecessary.
fragmede 21 hours ago [-]
that's not gonna salve their persecution complex,
unfortunately
segasaturn 21 hours ago [-]
Was anything in my comment untrue?
fragmede 21 hours ago [-]
was anything in mine untrue?
segasaturn 21 hours ago [-]
No, you might even be right that I have a "victim complex", given that my country is currently being victimized by the current US administration's pointless desire for a trade war. I'm especially hot under the collar at the moment.
But I would still maintain that this site's culture reflects the Silicon Valley finance culture it came from, and it's not a pretty culture.
dredmorbius 21 hours ago [-]
Flags are applied by users in virtually all cases, not mods.
Contentious topics, regardless of how merited a discussion might be, tend to draw flags inordinately. But again, you generally can't blame mods for this.
(HN does systemically penalise, or outright ban, numerous sites. I strongly doubt Wired is in either category, though if you want to know for certain, you can email mods. For a number of fairly evident reasons the full list isn't publicly disclosed, though pg provided some lists and extracts early in HN's histoyry, notably <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=499044> and <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4984095>. There were 38,719 banned sites as of the end of 2012, a number which has doubtless increased.)
segasaturn 21 hours ago [-]
I didn't even mention mods in my (admittedly flamey) comment, I actually don't think the moderation of HN is a problem as much as the larger culture that comes with being tied to a SV finance company. But thanks for the info.
dredmorbius 14 hours ago [-]
Fair enough. The topic engenders much confusion.
dredmorbius 15 hours ago [-]
Follow-up: There were 67,000 banned sites as of August 2023:
All stories about Musk’s coup are. Disgusting. Where is dang?
Tadpole9181 1 days ago [-]
[flagged]
ryandrake 22 hours ago [-]
He's just one guy, presumably doing his best to keep up. My guess is that HN's flagging system was designed with good faith actors in mind and is vulnerable to organized brigades using it as a mega-downvote to bury stories critical of Musk.
HumblyTossed 21 hours ago [-]
We are watching a coup in real time.
There's no two ways about it.
Sigh...
racktash 20 hours ago [-]
I would love just one year of this decade to be uneventful / boring...
I used to think people were over-doing it in their criticism of Trump – I thought he was dreadful, but ultimately a contained / containable force. I was even a little optimistic that he might be a disruptive force (inadvertent) that would make other politicians return their focus to everyday, working class concerns.
I was naive and stupid. And many people are kidding themselves even now about what's going on. There's nothing normal or business as usual about what's happening in America right now. I'm not qualified to predict where this all ends, but I don't think any of it's good and I don't think this ends after Donald Trump's second term.
To the people thinking DOGE is about cutting "wasteful spending", I can only shake my head. What will it take for people to see clearly what's right before them?
HumblyTossed 17 hours ago [-]
> I was naive and stupid.
No, you weren't. People on every angle of this are tired of the government not working. It's easy to have that glimmer of hope that maybe he really will make a good change. The problem is, he's a salesman - a grifter. His art is to latch onto that glimmer of hope and sell you on it while never delivering on it.
nxm 18 hours ago [-]
Tell me exactly how I will miss USAID and the billions wasted to foreign governments? Be specific please.
tines 16 hours ago [-]
Tell me exactly how I will miss your right arm and the thousands wasted on feeding you. Be specific please.
As the saying goes, "I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."
drysine 8 hours ago [-]
How can someone miss things like forced sterilization of indigenous women[0]?
I have never seen a genuine person end a request like this. It's always to bait someone.
MathMonkeyMan 19 hours ago [-]
Each of us feels that we belong to some tribe. If your tribe supports what you see going on, you won't be alarmed by it. Reality is less important than the discourse's impact on your tribe.
Besides, maybe everything is fine and the Muskovites are right.
racktash 19 hours ago [-]
One has to take in the broader picture. The DOGE events are one piece of the puzzle. It was only last week that far-right thugs were pardoned unconditionally by the President.
Some people hold conservative views, some liberal and others a mix. People have "tribes", but that's not what this is about.
What is happening is not good if you view rule of law and liberal democracy as being good things.
bobsmooth 16 hours ago [-]
Are you going to do anything about it?
masterclef 15 hours ago [-]
Shitposting on HN like the rest of the crowd.
HumblyTossed 13 hours ago [-]
Yes
21 hours ago [-]
Dig1t 21 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
ChicagoDave 21 hours ago [-]
Because they aren’t following the constitution or our laws. Congress has abdicated it’s responsibilities, but all of this is still illegal.
rbetts 21 hours ago [-]
Voting a new president into office doesn't grant that person extra-constitutional powers. What they say during an election doesn't create those new powers, either.
HumblyTossed 21 hours ago [-]
As others have said, this is not constitutional.
tj-teej 21 hours ago [-]
Because the US has a constitution. Congress (not the Executive branch) allocates funding and the Executive Branch (in this case a Billionaire who's friendly with the President) cannot decide not to spend the money Congress has already decided to spend.
Dig1t 21 hours ago [-]
How exactly is it not constitutional? All of this seems like well established precedent. He's advising the president and the president is taking actions.
Isn't that well established precedent that's been going on for a long time?
Also if you believe it's not constitutional it still doesn't make sense how it can be a "coup".
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
HumblyTossed 20 hours ago [-]
Oh, no, that's not it. This is a coup. Full stop.
indoordin0saur 20 hours ago [-]
Why? A majority of voters asked for this. It was pretty explicit they were going to do some serious trimming of the fat. The campaign promises were no secret. Now, if Trump tried to fire him but he somehow still maintained his power within the government then that would be a coup.
HumblyTossed 20 hours ago [-]
A majority did not. And the ones who voted for Trump didn't ask for someone to illegally access the systems that Elon has access to. This is the kind of stuff they voted to fix.
> Now, if Trump tried to fire him but he somehow still maintained his power within the government then that would be a coup.
I still think this is what will happen.
tines 20 hours ago [-]
> I still think this is what will happen.
Agreed, but we won't hear about it, a failure of that kind would never make it to the public's awareness.
indoordin0saur 19 hours ago [-]
Trump isn't exactly subtle when he expresses his disappointment in one of his hires. We'll definitely hear about it if it happens. The idea that Musk is somehow acting against Trump's direction is ridiculous though.
nico 2 days ago [-]
This is like crypto, or rewriting the whole code from scratch. Re-learning all the lessons
ericjmorey 2 days ago [-]
They're not going to learn anything. They're subverting the system for personal gain at the expense of everyone else.
twen_ty 1 days ago [-]
Why is this flagged?
twochillin 2 days ago [-]
why was this flagged?
rbanffy 2 days ago [-]
Having the word “Elon” seems to bring out the worst in us. I still believe we can have civil discussions about topics that might be considered taboo.
Tadpole9181 2 days ago [-]
[flagged]
dang 21 hours ago [-]
You can cherry-pick any two data points like that to make any point you want, all equally unfounded, so the only thing a comment like this actually does is restate your existing preference.
Edit: or perhaps one could say restate-and-reinforce. I think that's (edit: well, might be) largely the function of adding snark and indignation to internet comments.
hipadev23 21 hours ago [-]
I think you need to admit HN is failing due to how easy it is to manipulate what content and comments are shown. Allows a single determined group to literally control the narrative. Eliminate upvotes/downvotes. Keep flagging but make it public record. And revoke privileges for those who abuse it.
dang 21 hours ago [-]
That's not an accurate description of what's happening, and we're not going to redesign the site in response to political winds, gale-force though they are right now. Actually that would be the worst moment to do that.
wswope 20 hours ago [-]
I think many users would be willing to hear a long-form version of your take on the subject (maybe in a fresh meta thread for visibility?), but your comment as-is feels like a shallow dismissal of legitimate concerns.
You’re not really offering any insight into why or how you reached the conclusion that you posted. As a user on the outside, it sure looks like the site structure has begun to buckle in the wind.
dang 20 hours ago [-]
Sorry - I spent hours yesterday writing about this at length, so in my mind I've already done that, but you're right, of course. Let me dig up the links for you...
That’s entirely understandable - I’ll dive into your profile to read those thoughts.
I second the suggestion to have some sort of metathread, stickied comment on hot political threads, or other consolidated way to present your collected thoughts so that a larger number of users see it and can benefit. Like you said, the winds are blowing hard, and you might go a long way to quelling the moderatorial waters by addressing the whole site as a collective.
dang 20 hours ago [-]
Past efforts to do that kind of thing haven't worked, so I'm a bit down on the idea. What ends up happening is (1) the meta communication stirs up a flurry of objections, some relevant and many not; as well as people passionately restating what they feel about current affairs and/or how much they dislike what some other comment said; and at the same time (2) most people still don't see it, so it ends up not having the desired effect and just taking a ton of time.
Somehow, no matter how often we repeat something, the set of users who hear it always has measure zero (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25787443). That's why I mostly stick to answering specific comments with detailed explanations, and hope that at least some other users will see it.
tptacek 19 hours ago [-]
There's something a little interesting in the measure zero observation; we've run into it in a couple places too. For instance: we now do voice calls ahead of our last hiring exercise (it's a little bit counterintuitive and needs some prep) because no matter how carefully we wrote about it, even with highly motivated candidates (many of whom we statistically end up hiring!) nothing we write seems to sink in. We have an API quirk that works the same way, too.
There should be a name for the effect.
hipadev23 21 hours ago [-]
It 100% absolutely is, you're just too deep to recognize it.
It's what's happened across Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook over the past decade. You've all built platforms intended for social discourse but instead built extremely brittle systems subject to gamified manipulation by showing people which opinions reward and punish them. And those are then manipulated at-large by outside groups responsible for elevating a particular way of thinking about a given topic.
Conversations do not need a algorithmic popularity mechanism.
dang 20 hours ago [-]
That's just not an accurate description of HN based on what I know, but of course it's indeed possible that I'm too embedded to see clearly.
Edit: some of these points can be refuted by data though (albeit not public data, which means people have to take our word for it, which many are understandably reluctant to do). For example, flaggers of these stories are by and large longstanding community members who have participated for years on HN in lots of threads about lots of topics, etc. That doesn't prove they're not flagging at the behest of outside groups, but it does make it unlikely.
hipadev23 19 hours ago [-]
Make it public. Upvotes/downvotes/flagging should have usernames attached to it.
tptacek 19 hours ago [-]
That would be a disaster of epic proportions. Every thread, no matter how innocuous the topic, would devolve into perpetual feuds about which kinds of people were upvoting and downvoting which other kinds. These sorts of shitstorms were pretty common on HN, in the long-long-ago, and even then all we were revealing were comment scores, not voting attribution.
hipadev23 16 hours ago [-]
Then we remove upvotes and downvote entirely. Web2.0 online discourse (visibility is controlled by recommendation algos keyed on upvotes/downvotes) is fundamentally broken.
tptacek 16 hours ago [-]
That would create a different forum. HN is an experiment in how long this kind of forum can ward off gravitational collapse. There are things fundamentally wrong with these kinds of forums, but that's true of every kind of forum.
hipadev23 16 hours ago [-]
Very well then. I’m going to create a better product to accelerate that gravitational collapse.
See some of you on the other side but it won’t be here. I’m out.
tptacek 15 hours ago [-]
That's exactly what you should do! Psyched to see whatever you come up with.
dang 11 hours ago [-]
Not to pile on what tptacek has already nicely said, but I agree and still think there is plenty of room for new forums. The vast majority of possible permutations have not been tried yet, and I wish more people would.
These aren't "political winds". This is all a bit too much "we're all looking for the guy who did this", when it comes to Y Combinator and "tech bros" in general.
> Balaji then revealed his shocking ideas for a tech-governed city where citizens loyal to tech companies would form a new political tribe clad in gray t-shirts. “And if you see another Gray on the street … you do the nod,” he said, during a four-hour talk on the Moment of Zen podcast. “You’re a fellow Gray.”
> The Grays’ shirts would feature “Bitcoin or Elon or other kinds of logos … Y Combinator is a good one for the city of San Francisco in particular.” Grays would also receive special ID cards providing access to exclusive, Gray-controlled sectors of the city. In addition, the Grays would make an alliance with the police department, funding weekly “policeman’s banquets” to win them over.
That HN is for stuff not discussed in the news is basically disproven daily. The other thing I keep hearing that "if we allow this, the front page would be only about politics", I don't believe it anymore. It's like the stone that keeps tigers away. People may genuinely believe in that stone and that they're guarding the village, but I think it's bull and having to entertain this superstition takes up more resources than the occasional tiger attack would.
I know disabling flags is probably not feasible, since real spam does get posted. but we have "showdead" for comments, why can't we simply have the same option for threads? Then those who want to discuss these things can do it, at the price of also having to wade through actual spam. Anybody else would be unaffected. If the goal is not to suppress awareness and discussion, that can be very easily proven with such a feature, and the best time to implement it would have been a long time ago IMO.
dang 11 hours ago [-]
I haven't read that article but those bits you've quoted strike me as mad, and certainly have nothing to do with how we run Hacker News.
computerthings 10 hours ago [-]
To be honest, it's such a long article I couldn't find a good passage that summarizes it, so I went for the most stark bit. Because it's really quite mad.
But it wasn't my intent to claim you run HN like this either way; but I'm making the educated guess that people who think the above isn't mad, but quite exciting, would be both likely to use this site, and prone to abuse flagging to suppress discussion, and/or awareness of the article that would be discussed.
dang 9 hours ago [-]
Ah I see, and yes that's a mistake I make rather often (assuming that a comment is about moderation when it's actually about the community). But tbh I don't have this impression of the HN community. I don't think we have that many users who feel that way, and certainly we have many more users who would strongly disagree.
computerthings 3 hours ago [-]
I don't know what "many" would be here, but it's obviously too many, since the flagging of these topics is really constant. And that flags are used by people because they are "annoyed by" or "don't care" about these things is stated by people all the time, who never followed up when I challenge them. So that doesn't give me the impression of good faith. If the reasons are benign and not to suppress awareness and discussion -- in short, not people thinking themselves the lords of others -- then nobody would have a problem with people opting out with something like "ignore thread flags" option.
hipadev23 16 hours ago [-]
Votes are a far bigger problem than flagging because it takes a pavlovian approach to what ideas are allowed. Flagging is important to remove spam and wholly inappropriate content. And if you revoke the ability of users who flag content based on a personal disagreement, that user simply loses that ability.
computerthings 15 hours ago [-]
I suggested to add the ability of users to have their view of HN unaffected by these flags. Without that, HN simply has no ability to defend itself against abuse of users who take it upon themselves to play censor.
medler 2 days ago [-]
[flagged]
AnimalMuppet 2 days ago [-]
[flagged]
LastTrain 2 days ago [-]
Given who is involved this is as relevant as it gets here.
computerthings 1 days ago [-]
> Some of us are sick of politics all over HN all the time.
That was never the situation.
> how many Musk stories do we need in one day? However many the number is, we're past it.
So the number is zero. Having one story for each major separate event is one story too many. This is still what it is. The longer the rationalizations for it get, the more sad it gets.
johnnyanmac 2 days ago [-]
> Yeah, we know, tech is bleeding over into politics, but... how many Musk stories do we need in one day?
You should Ask Musk to cool down then. We didn't vote him in. We didn't ask him to break the law and compromise american security. We didn't grant him access to the US treasury. "We" voted this in. Those who didn't want this are 3 months too late.
And I see this excuse on every platform. I see a story I don't want to engage with... I just move on. Maybe you browse new, but I've never seen politics be "the dominant topic on HN".
chairmansteve 2 days ago [-]
And yet..... almost all your recent are related to Musk...
AnimalMuppet 2 days ago [-]
If you look at only one page of my posting history, that's likely true.
amitrip 9 hours ago [-]
[dead]
dapf 8 hours ago [-]
[dead]
22 hours ago [-]
2 days ago [-]
m2024 17 hours ago [-]
[dead]
Hatchback7599 20 hours ago [-]
[dead]
6stringmerc 2 days ago [-]
My experience working for Tyler Technologies in the Courts and Justice division opened my eyes to the absolutely arrogant and basically consequence-free mismanagement of public data in the hands of private enterprise. The fiasco with JudyRecords.com is absolutely important to keep in mind. If anything, I find stressing "efficiency" in government is simply a cover for "gutting functionality" because anytime something doesn't fit in "the model" of services then it simply gets dismissed.
Is this a technology equivalent to burning the libraries of old? Once the data is gone, come on, do you think any reasonable efforts will be made to restore it? Frankly speaking, is the course DOGE taking a mandate by the people to be enacted by representatives in the government or is it vice-versa, that "we are changing your society whether you like it or not" is the fundamental principle.
Then again, I just got out of jail after a year on a made-up Terroristic Threat charge politically motivated, so my perspective is likely skewed regarding motives and actions of those who have unchecked power at their disposal.
kittikitti 22 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
afavour 21 hours ago [-]
Ageism is refusing to hire someone who meets all the qualifications for the job because of their age. Refusing to hire someone whose inexperience makes them unqualified for the job is not the same as ageism.
To make the objections folks have here plain: these employees literally do not have the security clearance required to access the data they’re looking at. What they are doing is illegal.
archagon 21 hours ago [-]
We can and should yell at young people for knowingly doing illegal shit and raiding our government, though. Like, that’s my money they’ve unilaterally and extracongressionally decided to reappropriate with a smirk on their faces. Fuck that.
freedomben 21 hours ago [-]
> We can and should yell at young people for knowingly doing illegal shit and raiding our government, though.
Why just young people? If an old person does it then it's ok? I think GP is wrong about this, but you're inadvertently proving GP's point and making me wonder if maybe there is some ageism going on...
I would hope that most people recognize that different standards for people by age are not ok, but that isn't the same as different standards for different levels of experience and qualification.
minimaxir 21 hours ago [-]
You can yell at both young people and old people.
freedomben 19 hours ago [-]
Agreed! But you shouldn't be yelling at them about their age
21 hours ago [-]
wtcactus 18 hours ago [-]
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jeffbee 17 hours ago [-]
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chjj 16 hours ago [-]
Your post is the most pathetic attempt of a lie I've ever seen.
We all lived through it. We experienced it. It happened. Go gaslight somewhere else.
HPMOR 1 days ago [-]
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gsibble 18 hours ago [-]
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m2024 17 hours ago [-]
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nailer 21 hours ago [-]
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watwut 21 hours ago [-]
And have low interest in legality of what you are doing and it's impact.
nailer 21 hours ago [-]
There's no suggestion DOGE is doing anything illegal. Regarding the impact, reducing the size of government is uncontroversial for most people.
reaperducer 21 hours ago [-]
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nailer 21 hours ago [-]
It is inappropriate. It has negative educational value.
This submission was submitted and flagged yesterday: the fact that it's on the front page (for now) means it was rescued from death and implies that opposite of your observation.
redcobra762 22 hours ago [-]
It implies neither, as everything that's happened to this submission could be done by users (flagging and vouching are tools available to some users).
I don't think history shows that the young are harder to corrupt. I'll grant you idealism but might that be a consequence of naivete and inexperience?
At any rate ISTM that "Wild in the Streets" and "Logan's Run" weren't instruction films.
hintymad 19 hours ago [-]
> I'll grant you idealism but might that be a consequence of naivete and inexperience?
Very possible too. I'll add that young people have less to lose, or so in their mind. In contrast, a grown-up will have family, kids, and their own pride to take care of. Tons to lose.
As for history, I'm sure there were many counter examples. It's just that I couldn't think of any. The examples I had in mind were Aung San Suu Kyi, Wang Ching-wei, and Thabo Mbeki. Wang's story is particularly interesting. In his youth, he showed remarkable courage when he attempted to assassinate a Qing's royal prince, facing death with heroic resolve. Before his expected execution, he even composed a famous farewell poem. However, in his later years, he underwent a dramatic transformation, becoming a puppet leader for the Japanese invaders. He steadfastly maintained that Japan would emerge victorious and that China's resistance was futile.
howard941 19 hours ago [-]
Thank you for the interesting referral to Wang Ching-wei. I'd not been aware of him.
stronglikedan 19 hours ago [-]
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whoknowsidont 19 hours ago [-]
Besides causing chaos, they haven't done anything objectively or qualitatively for you to claim "great work."
Buddy, get real.
srid 19 hours ago [-]
I had to scroll a lot to get to the first positive comment! And it is heavily downvoted.
USAID was created by Congress. To get rid of it, Congress must pass a bill doing so and the president must sign it. That’s how this country’s fundamental institutions work. Don’t like it? Try to amend the Constitution. That’s what the rule of law means.
tines 18 hours ago [-]
Can you detail exactly how the OPM, GSA, and USAid are working against my interests?
a12k 18 hours ago [-]
GSA houses 18F which created Direct File, which lets people file their taxes for free. This takes money out of the pockets of companies like Intuit, in which my portfolio is heavily invested. Although their stock is up 50% since the introduction of Direct File, I believe it would have been up even more without Direct File. This is taking alpha out of my portfolio and thus food out of my children’s mouths.
tines 18 hours ago [-]
Ah, excellent, my mistake. Carry on.
---
I actually just looked up the arguments against Direct File, and the Republicans who oppose it argue that the IRS has no incentive to make sure that you pay the least taxes possible, while third parties do (in order to win your business). I believe this relies on the assumption that the tax code is so complicated that not even the IRS knows what you owe, what with all the special exemptions, tax discounts, etc. and therefore it takes a market to incentivize doing the work to navigate the tax code to get the biggest discount possible.
My reply to that would be that what this really means is that the tax code is too complicated, and keeping the market involved is killing the incentive to simplify it. If it were too simple, TurboTax et al. would go out of business. If Direct File were instituted and people found that they were charged more than they should owe, then this is a pressure to simplify the tax code so that the IRS can definitively tell you the minimum taxes you should pay.
What's your take on it?
a12k 18 hours ago [-]
I have personally found that when the government wants more of your money through taxes, they tend to raise taxes or lower credits or do something to incentivize behavior. They don’t tend to try to confuse people into not knowing what they owe and thus only private companies can get me the lowest taxes. So I don’t find that argument persuasive.
I do think the tax code is too complicated, but don’t think that’s a conscious choice by some government official or office. It’s a result of small changes by many generations of people over long periods of time. It does seem like it could be simplified, yet the IRS also seems to know how much most people owe because it’s reflected in forms like W-2s and 1099s and such. So maybe they should just send most people a transmission telling them how much the IRS thinks they owe, and provide the refund or a bill accordingly, and whoever disagrees with the assessment can file.
test6554 17 hours ago [-]
If Direct File takes away too much revenue from Intuit by handling all of the simple cases, then people with more complex taxes will have to pay quite a bit for their tax software. It might not even make sense to continue producing it. Or at least that could be what Intuit lobbyists are furiously telling republican congressmen.
krainboltgreene 17 hours ago [-]
I don't agree with any of this, but USAID has been involved in many global attempts at colonization and ethnic cleansing. One specific one you could look into is the colonization of Eelam Tamil.
tines 16 hours ago [-]
Can you provide a source for that? I can't find anything in a casual Google search.
> One underlying motive of the settlement pattern was to change the demographics of the Eastern Province, and it was clearly UNP policy laid down by JR and energetically implemented by Gamini. In Systems H and C 90% of the settlers were Sinhala and 10% Muslim – there were no Tamils although the land was in the Eastern Province, a majority Tamil province.
It's one of the many dark parts of our history.
lawn 16 hours ago [-]
Colonization? Like the rethoric around Panama, Greenland, and Canada?
krainboltgreene 16 hours ago [-]
What? No I mean actual colonization. You can look up the Mahaweli Development programme, it was specifically designed (under the guise of creating fertile land/pastures) to colonize more of the Sri Lankan region. "Somehow" there ended up being cities that were 94% Sinhalese and only Sinhalese-language was used in USAID made documents/guides/brochures, despite being the least used language among 3.
JohnHaugeland 15 hours ago [-]
USAid wasn’t even in existence for six months after the program you’re talking about. That had nothing to do with us.
By this point you could have just googled this yourself, I’m left to wonder why you’re making me do it for you. It’s not a secret.
apersona 18 hours ago [-]
Ah yes, USAID, the agency that provides foreign aid (disaster relief, combatting poverty, providing technical advice) to create a strong, positive impression of the US is "working against your interests".
Please tell me what you have against USAID.
kelnos 17 hours ago [-]
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gadders 20 hours ago [-]
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barbazoo 17 hours ago [-]
What does that have to do with "left"?
gadders 9 hours ago [-]
You think it could be rogue Republicans wanting to kill DOGE employees?
PartiallyTyped 17 hours ago [-]
They are public servants the moment they took the job for DOGE.
yapyap 21 hours ago [-]
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droptablemain 22 hours ago [-]
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achandlerwhite 22 hours ago [-]
What’s your take on the role of government at the federal level?
leptons 22 hours ago [-]
America is the most successful country in the world, and you want to stop all that to tear it down? So that the richest man in the world can get even richer by directing the US government to his liking? Or what? I really don't understand how you think a failed businessman reality Tv host and a "dark gothic maga" troll are going to be good for America.
dekhn 21 hours ago [-]
So, uh, when you tear it down, before you rebuild, who is going to manage the military? How do we stay competitive in science? Does it seem likely we will recover from a full tear-down quickly enough to stave off permanent damage to our economy and mental health?
The idea that a bunch of yokels working for lulz could tear down and rebuild a system better is daft.
hotguysixpack 22 hours ago [-]
nobody:
every junior engineer talking to a senior when the code is mildly complex:
droptablemain 22 hours ago [-]
The code is not mildly complex, it's criminal.
giraffe_lady 22 hours ago [-]
Why?
Fauntleroy 22 hours ago [-]
We can't exactly stop the government for a rebuild, you know.
yearzeroagain 11 hours ago [-]
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EcommerceFlow 21 hours ago [-]
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szundi 19 hours ago [-]
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emagdnim2100 21 hours ago [-]
disappointing to see so many “hacker” news comments complaining about lack of credentials or system-specific expertise.
yes, existing government systems are insanely complex - that’s part of the problem! the essential complexity is not higher than that of a brain-computer interface, or an interplanetary rocket.
we don’t even know what these kids’ mandate is (also disappointing). but if your general premise is “smart outsiders who are good at engineering are always the wrong people to rework complex, inefficient systems,” i’d like to think you’re on the wrong site.
whoknowsidont 21 hours ago [-]
The problem with these types of comments is your filtering reality through some sort of weird hero-complex you're clinging to. It's not realistic and it's harmful.
The people involved in this are not qualified or capable in _any_ manner to be doing what they're doing. They are sycophants.
Worse, it's putting an entire nation in jeopardy.
This isn't "smart, young spirits defy all odds and save the day!" it's really "hitler youth comes in and starts thrashing about until daddy gets his way."
alfalfasprout 17 hours ago [-]
Yep. You can move fast and break things in a SAAS startup or some dumb LLM as a service startup.
But the stakes are much higher in what they're touching. And the way they're being brought in is selecting for loyal sycophants, nothing else. If they disagree musk will axe them in seconds.
zelphirkalt 20 hours ago [-]
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vzqx 21 hours ago [-]
I'm open to outsiders improving inefficiencies. The concern is that these are kids, barely out of college. They don't have the domain-specific knowledge required to rework these complex systems, no matter how smart they are. Plus, given Musk's track record, they were likely chosen more for their loyalty to Musk than for their technical acumen.
lm28469 20 hours ago [-]
> yes, existing government systems are insanely complex - that’s part of the problem! the essential complexity is not higher than that of a brain-computer interface, or an interplanetary rocket.
Yeah, and why don't we build concentration camps again? They're super efficient in term of work per unit of food. Colonies are also super nice, lots of free stuff!
Some people should open history books, life isn't about refactoring everything, making things as simple as possible, &c. It would be comical if it wasn't the very first thing you learn as an engineer
If you think a rocket is more complex than hundreds of years of infinitely complex people making decisions and compromises through democracy you're completely out of touch with reality, and if you genuinely think we can just burn it all down because some nerd unilaterally thinks he found a better way to do it you're just plain dumb.
tgv 20 hours ago [-]
> the essential complexity is not higher than that of a brain-computer interface, or an interplanetary rocket.
Sorry, but that's such an absurd comment. These kids don't even know anything about rocket building, let alone they're able to build a rocket from first principles. Second, the US government is much more complex than a rocket; it cannot be understood by a single person. Third, you can waste rockets, but a whole nation depends on one goverment. You can't just experiment with it. Fourth, there are lives at stake. It's not just a payload, or one or two astronauts who know what they signed up for, that are at their mercy.
kelnos 17 hours ago [-]
"Smart" isn't enough when dealing with systems like these. I want smart and experienced.
jeffbee 17 hours ago [-]
There is zero evidence that any of these guys are even average.
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
Thank you!
drawkward 16 hours ago [-]
Disappointing seeing so many "smart" people on this site thinking that a government shoild be run like a business.
bagels 9 hours ago [-]
Qualified or not, it's crimes, unconstitutional, and fascist.
mynameyeff 19 hours ago [-]
I mean, these "kids" are rockstars. Why are they being juvenilized by the Wired writer?
masterclef 15 hours ago [-]
Jealousy.
lif 21 hours ago [-]
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jazz9k 19 hours ago [-]
How is this different than any other private company?
gunian 17 hours ago [-]
ngl when they said trump 2024 musk 2028 in 2022 i thought it was far fetched but now i'm kinda curious to see what happens
tonymet 19 hours ago [-]
Young people should be happy to see more representation in the federal govt. Among roles of authority it's probably 65+ . They're spending your & your grandkid's prosperity every minute.
People under 55 should be happy about this situation.
pinoy420 10 hours ago [-]
If you have ever spoken to a 16-20yo you will understand just how good these people are.
windowshopping 10 hours ago [-]
What? Unclear whether you're trying to say they are very good or not very good.
pinoy420 4 hours ago [-]
Very good. Able to absorb information so much quicker than people their senior. Also incredibly eager to learn and please.
shipscode 12 hours ago [-]
The moral arguments against what the left or right do are exactly the same.
Suddenly the left is all concerned about doxxing or unelected bureaucrats in government.
Truthfully politics in America is not about any moral compass - it’s about individual preference to see certain political ideas win or lose.
Instead of pretending politics is based on a set of moral issues, just accept that it’s a set of opinions. Some simply like certain causes, people, or businesses more than others do.
> Most governments don’t want USAID funds flowing into their countries because they understand where much of that money actually ends up.
> While marketed as support for development, democracy, and human rights, the majority of these funds are funneled into opposition groups, NGOs with political agendas, and destabilizing movements.
> At best, maybe 10% of the money reaches real projects that help people in need (there are such cases), but the rest is used to fuel dissent, finance protests, and undermine administrations that refuse to align with the globalist agenda.
> Cutting this so-called aid isn’t just beneficial for the United States; it’s also a big win for the rest of the world.
Their funding has been hard for Congress to vet, and it seems like they do some shady things. Kudos to Elon and his team for cutting us more than $1b/day so far!
medler 17 hours ago [-]
It’s not Elon Musk’s place to make spending allocation decisions for the US government. The Constitution assigns that power to Congress. It is not hyperbolic to say that if Elon/Doge can arbitrarily cut spending, then Congress has effectively been abolished, and the US Constitutional order is over.
Now, if Elon wanted to review spending allocations and recommend cuts to Congress, that would be fine. I would be in favor of that, provided he accessed the data in a legal and privacy-respecting way.
stainablesteel 8 minutes ago [-]
if it's not Elon's place even though Trump literally ran on Elon doing this, and they not only won the electoral college but also the popular vote too, then it's not USAID's place to do so either
the money they give away tends to fund extremism and terrorism, and never goes to where it's needed
- Haiti: Post-2010 earthquake, $1.14 billion was spent on a port and power plant project promoted by President Bill Clinton. The project never built anything.
- Cuba: A 2006 audit showed $74 million in “democracy promotion” funds vanished without oversight.
- Afghanistan: Millions squandered on health scams; hospitals never built.
- Nigeria: Chemonics, a major USAID contractor, was linked to a subcontractor's overbilling scandal. Hundreds of millions lost.
- COVID 19 Funding: USAID sent over $40MILLION in taxpayer money to a scientist located in Wuhan to do gain of function mutations. This directly led to the creation and release of COVID-19
- $2.5 MILLION to DEI in Serbia
- $70,000 onan Irish DEI musical
- $47,000 on transgender operas in Colombia
- $32,000 on a trans comic book in Peru
- Iraq: $20M for an Iraqi version of Sesame Street to promote LGBTQ Agenda
- Egypt & Tunisia: $56M for “tourism”
- Jordan: $40M for “schools”
- Vietnam: $11M to fight “trash burning”
- Central America: $27M for deportee gift bags.
- Trump Lawfare: $27M to fund left wing prosecutions of populist political opponents around the globe, including Donald Trump. Patently illegal.
anon7000 17 hours ago [-]
No, not kudos!
Before destroying an entire organization, it’s important to know their true impact and how much it’ll hurt to have them gone. So far, I’ve seen zero evidence that deep thought or analysis went into these decisions. In other words, it’s objectively a careless decision. If it’s not careless, then Elon should be sharing evidence, lengthy discussions on his decisions, etc. Plus, there should be a public comment period because Elon sure as SHIT doesn’t have enough context to understand the full impact.
I, for one, do not like the fact that the richest man in the world, who still owns multiple companies in conflict with our government, gets to unilaterally make these decisions with no input from the public. Not only is it undemocratic, it’s objectively corrupt! You know, that thing where we expect our federal decision makers to not have severe conflicts of interests?
So no, don’t fucking give kudos for shit like this. And a single tweet from one president isn’t enough to justify decisions of this magnitude.
If those allegations are true, sure, reform or shutter the department. But do it democratically. Move fast and break shit is not the correct problem solving model to apply to geopolitics or even federal policy, and it’s absurd that this isn’t self evident.
OsrsNeedsf2P 15 hours ago [-]
> Before destroying an entire organization, it’s important to know their true impact and how much it’ll hurt to have them gone
I have to prove my impact every 6 months as an engineer. I expect an entire organization can do the same - the fact there is not a clear impact people can point to speaks volumes.
lostdog 13 hours ago [-]
They release a yearly impact report.
Every right-wing comment on this page is just asserting stuff. There's no information in any of them. No attempts to educate or inform. No breakdown or analysis of what USAID does and the cost-benefit of shutting them down.
Try doing a little research and writing a paragraph on what USAID does and the pros and cons of shutting them down. It would be good for you.
stainablesteel 5 minutes ago [-]
Nope. There's lots of information both on this page and throughout the internet.
You can't reform an institution that's filled with your political opponents when they aim to sabotage you. Many federal employees worked to sabotage Trump in his first term, and how that he has such a strong mandate from the voters he's going after the people who sabotaged him so that the country doesn't destroy itself in a debt spiral.
kansface 15 hours ago [-]
USAID is reputedly the tool of the CIA.
solidasparagus 16 hours ago [-]
This is just blatantly false. The 10% number is ridiculous which anyone involved with foreign aid knows. But you can easily tell that the countries want the money from the cases where the US threatens to take away aid over some disagreement and then the foreign countries capitulates. You know these are sovereign nations that can say no to the aid if they don't want it right? You don't just show up without a visa and hand out money without the approval of the foreign government.
megous 14 hours ago [-]
This is a very simplistic take.
zb3 17 hours ago [-]
This was basically Open Society Foundations but using taxpayer funds.. of course leftist groups will complain, this is expected.
arionhardison 19 hours ago [-]
This is where we are, we need to stop complaining and deal with things as the actually exist. I am doing this in my own way, my fear is Elon and Co. hitting Medicare/Medicaid so I am making my own: https://medicare.dev. I think this is going to become more and more common as fed become less and less stable/reliable.
DanHulton 18 hours ago [-]
This is a prime example of a social problem that does not have a technical solution.
Re-think your approach.
arionhardison 17 hours ago [-]
I don't understand what you mean? Healthcare process efficiency is a "social" problem?
arionhardison 15 hours ago [-]
Are you referring to Moral Hazard?
dbbk 17 hours ago [-]
How come your website doesn't even explain what it is?
arionhardison 16 hours ago [-]
Apologies, I am at the "embarrassed" by how early I am phase. I will update ASAP, but here is an example: https://www.youtube.com/@CodifyHQ
It's pretty much what the name indicates. A new medicare.
cod1r 11 hours ago [-]
I fully support young folks being put in those high pressure situations. Lets them learn and showcase what young people can do.
I think there are huge benefits when you put together a team of people that usually don't have distractions like kids, intimate relationships, health problems etc that can hinder productivity.
Even more beneficial to a team when you combine the wisdom and experience of older folks with the passion and energy of the youth.
tnt128 11 hours ago [-]
or young folks are passionate, idealistic, lack real-world experience, and idolize heroes, which makes them perfect foot soldiers for carrying out tasks without questions.
WillyWonkaJr 11 hours ago [-]
This is exactly what happened when Obama was elected, btw. Cult of personality is a dangerous thing from either end of the political spectrum.
pixxel 10 hours ago [-]
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bagels 9 hours ago [-]
Let them create some startups, not coup the government.
11 hours ago [-]
babycheetahbite 1 hours ago [-]
Gosh, many of the folks at HN seem to be deeply invested in things remaining status quo with the administrative state.
Rendered at 17:39:12 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
Our current gerontocracy is ahistorical.
Perhaps one reason startups work so well is they are one of the few places that still let young people exert agency.
The average age of NASA’s mission control team during the Apollo era was 27— they put humans on the moon. Young people bring a force of curiosity and creativity that can disrupt the status quo. If we’re serious about cutting waste in gov spending, let’s not turn away new minds.
The guys featured in this gross and irresponsible hit piece by Wired, by all accounts, are brilliant engineers. Top 1%.
- one decoded the Herculaneum Papyrii at the age of 20, winning the Vesuvius Challenge
- another built a startup funded by OpenAI
- one interned at SpaceX and got a Thiel Fellowship
- another was a top engineer at a major AI firm
This is who they are bullying and putting a target on. The best of us nerds. https://x.com/anothercohen/status/1886480470185001025
Startups as a whole produce a lot of innovation because there is this extreme Darwinian process where the vast majority fail and a few succeed but you have a huge amount of risk-taking in parallel in a very compressed time frame.
Government generally doesn’t have the luxury of failure because the consequences for people’s lives are too extreme. So by definition government is going to be slower-moving and more risk-averse. They are essentially paying to reduce the standard deviation of possible outcomes because they can’t afford the risk of the extreme negative tail.
Education, physical and mental health, cost of living, healthcare, wealth inequality. They've all gotten worse the past few decades, would you agree?
The NYT just reported that the federal government lost $236 billion to apparent fraud ("improper payments") in 2023 alone.
The US GAO says "2018-2022 Data Show Federal Government Loses an Estimated $233 Billion to $521 Billion Annually to Fraud"
USAID literally set up fake AIDS prevention workshops to topple foreign governments https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/08/0...
This is a small sample of the extreme waste, fraud and abuse, while we have very serious issues here on the ground that are systematically ignored. For DECADES. Unaddressed.
Fixing this is what the majority of voters voted for and are rightfully thrilled to see these brilliant young tech nerds untangle the beurocratic leviathon. There will be, and have been, mistakes, things deleted that shouldn't have been. Anything important and that the people actually want, will be added back in. DOGE was upfront about this process.
Furthermore, why should i trust a billionaire who has spouted lies more and more times?
What about data protection? We're giving billionaires and their team access to federal workers data. Project 2025 emphatizes replacing federal workers for loyal one, why shouldn't an american feel threatened by this? https://www.muskwatch.com/p/musk-associates-given-unfettered
And why should i care about saving all these money if the middle class is gonna get screwed with higher taxes?
Im guessing they will eventually discover why bureaucracy even exists. That is to move slow enough to ensure big mistakes become impossible and provide stability for newer things to happen at their own pace.
Im guessing any chaos inside bureaucracy for as little as a decade could cause a lost century to a country. The cost of stabilising, course correcting, recovering and then going on upwards could take decades.
But more importantly, the real issue is regardless of how old they are an unelected individual is doling out hyper-privileged access to sensitive data to folks without any kind of oversight. It's a total mess.
It's hyperbolic to the n-th degree to call these "the best of nerds" as well.
And there's that one guy whose entire work history is as a summer camp counselor.
https://directfile.irs.gov/
Because I guarantee Elon will throw them first under the bus if anything happens
During the WW2 german occupation of France, there were some french people who opted to enthusiastically work to support the german side, and they certainly benefitted short term from the goodwill earned
At the end of the occupation, a lot of them were shot or hanged by the resistance
10/10 no notes
Email me.
When the shit inevitably hits the fan from the massive amount of orgs they are dismantling, Musk and the DOGE will be used as a political scapegoat by Trump, that's how politics work.
And then from that, taking responsibility has never been Musk strongest point either, he'll push back the blame further to DOGE workers.
Anything to flame Elon another day innit?
His management style is best described as humiliation and abuse.
Or to put it another way, you can build a lot of pyramids when you use disposable slaves.
The Treasury has been taken over and barricaded, but please enlighten us Garry with fables of their 10x brilliance.
There is no control-z in physical systems, especially ones that rely on human constructs and tradition
You have it backwards.
Pack it up boys.
Any score over 100 means no discernable difference in intelligence. https://medium.com/incerto/iq-is-largely-a-pseudoscientific-...
I've met plenty of people in the private sector who I could easily describe as "the worst kind of bureaucrats". You really don't know what you're talking about.
Think what you will about who came before or after, but everyone involved here should have experience or training in how to handle and secure sensitive information.
Here are the ages of the senior scientists: Oppenheimer: 38 Teller: 34 Lawrence: 41 Rabi: 44 Szilard: 44 Ulam: 33 Bethe: 36 Fuchs: 31 von Neumann: 39
So the younger people would have had plenty of supervision.
Oppenheimer was smart, no doubt, but did he have the life experience to warrant 'senior'-level decision making? I feel like the history books show it's emphatically indecisive.
> …we know that unilaterally closing USAID is illegal.
[0]: https://www.democrats.senate.gov/newsroom/press-releases/lea...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_the_purse#United_Stat...
In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 (the Appropriations Clause) and Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 (the Taxing and Spending Clause).
The power of the purse plays a critical role in the relationship of the United States Congress and the President of the United States, and has been the main historic tool by which Congress has limited executive power.
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/not-confident-trump-...
Not confident Trump will prevail: Scholar on his attempts to take Congress' power of the purse Professor Deborah Pearlstein joins Morning Joe to discuss her column for the NYT outlining some of Trump’s actions implemented in his first few days in office and why she says Trump is hardly the first president to claim broad executive power, but the difference is not just the enormity of his claims, it's that the administration mostly doesn't try to craft legal justifications for its actions.
https://www.marketplace.org/2025/02/04/congress-president-tr...
How Congress — and not the president — controls how taxpayer money is spent
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/01/trump-e...
‘It’s an Illegal Executive Order. And It’s Stealing.’
But they're not spending; they're kind of doing the opposite of spending. And reducing waste is a previously known (for a long time) goal of theirs.
Second, as I’m sure you know, and are being deliberately obtuse about, the separation of powers doctrine, which has been upheld by SCOTUS; one example [0] is Youngstown Sheet & Tube Co. v. Sawyer. USAID is codified by law, regardless of its genesis, and as such, only Congress is able to revoke the law.
[0]: https://tile.loc.gov/storage-services/service/ll/usrep/usrep...
That of course means drawing upon experience, work and ongoing contributions of people who are around for long. Obviously they would be old.
Getting old is a part of life no? Unless of course some one is planning on dying early.
DOGE and the Treasury Department are both part of the Executive Branch and derive powers from its head, aka the President.
This is essentially President Trump telling President Trump to hand President Trump the keys to the payment system so that President Trump can check WTF President Trump is spending money on.
In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 (the Appropriations Clause) and Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 (the Taxing and Spending Clause).
The power of the purse plays a critical role in the relationship of the United States Congress and the President of the United States, and has been the main historic tool by which Congress has limited executive power.
Congress as the Legislative Branch has no authority to Execute.
It does not. In fact, limiting this benefit of the doubt has been a major goal of the conservative legal movement in recent years. If what you say was true then Biden would have had no trouble forgiving student loan debt and requiring generation shifting.
Maybe you see the inherent problem with the setup where President Trump is in charge of checking up on what President Trump is spending money on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_the_purse#United_Stat...
In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 (the Appropriations Clause) and Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 (the Taxing and Spending Clause).
The power of the purse plays a critical role in the relationship of the United States Congress and the President of the United States, and has been the main historic tool by which Congress has limited executive power.
https://www.marketplace.org/2025/02/04/congress-president-tr...
How Congress — and not the president — controls how taxpayer money is spent
Also, a later act of Congress (The Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act of 1998, 22 U.S.C. 6501 et seq.) established USAID as its own agency.[1]
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impoundment_of_appropriated_...
[1] https://www.justsecurity.org/107267/can-president-dissolve-u...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_of_the_purse#United_Stat...
In the federal government of the United States, the power of the purse is vested in the Congress as laid down in the Constitution of the United States, Article I, Section 9, Clause 7 (the Appropriations Clause) and Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 (the Taxing and Spending Clause).
The power of the purse plays a critical role in the relationship of the United States Congress and the President of the United States, and has been the main historic tool by which Congress has limited executive power.
https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/not-confident-trump-...
Not confident Trump will prevail: Scholar on his attempts to take Congress' power of the purse Professor Deborah Pearlstein joins Morning Joe to discuss her column for the NYT outlining some of Trump’s actions implemented in his first few days in office and why she says Trump is hardly the first president to claim broad executive power, but the difference is not just the enormity of his claims, it's that the administration mostly doesn't try to craft legal justifications for its actions.
https://www.marketplace.org/2025/02/04/congress-president-tr...
How Congress — and not the president — controls how taxpayer money is spent
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/01/trump-e...
‘It’s an Illegal Executive Order. And It’s Stealing.’
If you knew a country wanted to build a weapon to cripple your own country, and you had the necessary skills to build that weapon, would you feel come compulsion to try and build it first in order to protect your family and friends? To protect yourself?
That’s obviously arguable. Did the weapon and its usage cause more or fewer deaths and destruction than without it?
They also have gone through the military chain of command...
I didn't see Musk's confirmation hearing. OMB's head needs to be Senat confirmed, Musk is giving OMB orders and took over their e-mail addresses. Where's the hearing? Where's the confirmation?
Plus that project in particular was more about destroying things exponentially faster, than it actually was about building things somewhat faster.
The faster building process was achieved in a relatively linear way at best, and the only thing built was a tool for destruction, no comparable efforts were made toward building things of lasting value which would need to more than compensate or the tech effort is a net loss.
Or, after destruction is induced, a recovery can not be made since the time required for building has the time it took for destruction in the denominator.
To my knowledge the Chief of Staff does not have the power to coerce other people to do things directly. Any "actual" coercion would have to go through someone like the President, right?
And my dumb thought is if DOGE is going around telling OMB and Treasury what to do (and seemingly is willing to call the US Marshalls on people who stand in their way) and the head of the OMB requires senate confirmation... well what are we doing here?
There's a bunch of nuance you can play at a micro level (for example, Musk messaging Trump to do a thing and Trump giving an OK), though in that case that's also newsworthy and important, because it properly associates who is responsible for what is going on!
Right now we have somebody who seems to be running rampant doing whatever he wants, and this lack of explicit association with the rest of the executive make it unclear who is actually calling the shots here. And if Trump isn't calling the shots... again, where's the confirmation?
The chief of staff can relay orders from the president to cabinet members and department heads, but cannot make decisions of this scope.
I don't really know how any of that is relevant, though. Musk is not Trump's chief of staff, and as far as we can tell, is not even employed by the federal government. He is not empowered to give (for example) orders to the head (confirmed or acting) of the OMB.
Wheres the evidence of their brilliance? A few projects in GitHub isn’t impressive.
Seriously if they’re brilliant this is the perfect PR opportunity to highlight the highly talented people making a difference. But instead we have secrecy.
I suspect the real reason for these choices is they needed people who are young and naive, will not ask too many questions, easy to manipulate, and coerced to work long for little pay.
Or, instead, we could stop tinkering around the edges as a nation and think about the structural reasons why current spending on pensions and the healthcare safety net in the US isn’t sustainable, despite providing less to citizens than other comparable countries.
- the Social Security Administration, in the first MONTH of 2025, has outlaid $395 billion of spending. - the Department of Defense, in the first MONTH of 2025, has outlaid $250 billion of spending. - USAID's annual budget is $38 billion annually, so we could realistically estimate that, if they've outlaid $3 billion this year thus far, they've spent 0.4% of what those other two departments have.
Let's call this like it is: USAID is a bogeyman to Trump and Musk and is a threat to the administration's efforts toward becoming a "hard power" country. If they really cared about spending, they would have gone elsewhere first.
Source: https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...
Also please point to the last federal employee in IT sector who were highlighted for their "Talent and Brilliance".
For the next eight years he did groundbreaking work in developing rockets. In 1945 he and his youthful engineering team were actively recruited to continue their work for another country with great ambitions in space. A tremendous success for his personal career, even though the party he served fell a bit short of their goals.
He was clearly "the best of us nerds". Never mind that his genius was built on slave labor and oppression. He disrupted some governments, made good money and got to work on awesome rockets! That’s what counts in life.
That's not my department, " says Wernher von Braun.
Tom Lehrer - Wernher von Braun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEJ9HrZq7Ro
What I'm hearing from my friends - many of whom have helped build and scale some of the most successful tech companies on the planet - is that no engineer is an exceptional one without a modicum of ethics and wisdom.
These seem to be in short supply at DOGE.
Inexperienced people imposing disruptions due to lack of experience is why young people may succeed at startups but fail at establishing companies. Likewise, government is not a startup and you really don’t want government to fail.
The NYT just reported that the federal government lost $236 billion to apparent fraud ("improper payments") in 2023 alone.
The US GAO says "2018-2022 Data Show Federal Government Loses an Estimated $233 Billion to $521 Billion Annually to Fraud"
What Musk is doing is what the majority voted for. To finally put an end the unbelievable waste, fraud and abuse. This is exactly what he said he would do and most Americans are relieved and see hope for the first time in a long time.
They can easily be both. They're definitely the latter
bingo, take developing minds with high risk tolerance to do the illegal work someone older and wiser would refuse.
My understanding is this is DOGE getting some analysis software in place so they can find out where the money goes and start their cuts, which I understand there is an executive order for. And my understanding is that the executive does have the power to do that sort of audit.
Where has my understanding gone wrong?
DOGE is not a department authorized by Congress to exist. Elon's appointment at the head of it was not confirmed by Congress, usurping its right to 'advise and consent' to the executive. All government employees have strict rules they have to follow about conflicts of interest, which Elon's companies many government contracts would put him in violation of. Congress dictates what and how the government spends its money, and the Executive is tasked with carrying that out; Elon has placed himself in the middle of that, and has been saying he will now be the one that chooses how that money is spent. There are many laws in place on how the government is to handle personal information, and there is no indication or oversight of DOGE to verify those laws are being followed. Elon was locking employees out of their workplace, despite having that authority (since he was not confirmed to Congress to be in charge of that department).
There are probably quite a lot of other ones too. A lot of the strategy seems to be moving faster than the courts can keep up.
The cuts are already preceding the actual analysis, and once the authority of the executive to do whatever they have done is decided in court, the damage will have been done. It is the “stop me if you can, I’ll be done before the Supreme Court stops me” approach that is terrifying.
My understanding from online reading (... but we know how that goes ...) is that that executive order cannot be given without approval and that approval was not given. But would love to hear someone with more knowledge to chime in as all the left-ish to even moderate right media are shouting all of this is illegal and overstepping.
If Biden creates a new program by executive order and puts a non elected person in charge, republicans will cry. If Trump does the same, democrats will yell.
It’s just the polarisation of the debate that is higher than before.
Their youth and technical ability isn't the problem. What are problems are their inexperience and recklessness and evident lack of awareness. Government and the administrative state are serious undertakings. Move Fast and Break Things is extraordinarily dangerous in this context.
As a veteran of startups, this puzzles me. I assume it's a perception that successful startups are the majority of startups. (They are not.)
When dealing with organizing and managing a great number of people or resources, I have never seen a young inexperienced human performing adequately, even remotely.
Old age and presumed experience is not at all a guarantee that someone would be good in such roles, but from what I have seen, young age and the associated lack of relevant experience pretty much guarantees failure in such cases.
(While I'm at it, there's nothing special about age here. Plenty of 25 year olds are actually doing productive things for humanity. But many 40 year olds are doing it too. The difference is that they are competent and empathetic, not random guys who Elon happens to like.)
Wilfully choosing to work for DOGE/ current Musk certainly isn't "the best of us".
Naming and shaming them is good. No one forced them to take this job. With the skills you list they could have done any number of good or neutral things instead.
Young people tend to be more ideological and ready to fight for what they care. The older you get, the more problems you have (bills, health, children, etc) the less you care imho.
Since when do startups "work well"? Some startups work well, but famously >90% of them fail. Imagine if 9 out of every 10 fires was just left alone because the fire brigade was replaced by a startup, or if 9 out 10 bridges fell down within a few years. Startups are just one of many models of running things, but they are not appropriate for everything.
The danger of the vision is the power of the vision, fix what’s broken in the bureaucracy, it’s not being fascist it’s just easier to ask forgiveness than permission!
We’ll see!
So, who's the VC that will fund the 4-9 failed governments we'll have to go through until we get a unicorn?
It feels a bit like that famous Joel on Software post - when faced with an existing code base - it looks over complex and you can't understand it - so you decide to re-write - only to discover during the process why it's so complex in the first place.
https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-...
Sure it's important to challenge the status quo - but it's really important to approach it with humility and to seek to understand why things are the way they are, not just to assume you know it all.
People around here love to talk about the Dunning–Kruger effect, but seem to be of the mistaken belief that it is about smart vs dumb people rather than people with domain expertise vs people without.
This over arrogance of us techies thinking because we're good with computers we're the best at everything is what people are annoyed and, justifiably critical of.
You're going to be responsible to assess and dismantle a government agency with thousands of employees and billions in budget being in your twenties with ZERO gov experience is indeed a huge red flag and not merely putting a target because they're young.
We've all met incredibly accomplished people who are not to be trusted with sharp objects. Expertise in one area does not translate to another easily.
Counterpoint - they don't have the wisdom and experience in the domain they are working in that older, wiser heads do. I've seen a LOT of stuff from both 'tech bros' and programmers who are new to a domain where it's clear they are 100% confident they are right, despite consensus to the contrary. And when their plans are implemented, all the things they didn't think about come into play - such as Tesla service which is terrible.
These people may all be brilliant engineers. But not all problems are engineering problems, and while these people may be able to engineer a system to reduce costs drastically, they may not understand where to cut costs and where efficiency can actually be achieved.
Don't forget that most of the new tech economy that people harp on about (Uber, Amazon, Tesla spring to mind) is built on the erosion of workers' rights and lowest-common-denominator treatment wherever possible.
Maybe that had something to do with why they were chosen?
Such rhyme. Much knowledge. Wow.
These guys are the modern equivalent of name any destructive revolutionary group looking for stuff they don't agree with.
I don't however refute that you can be a brilliant mind and active contributor at any age. Just that these guys aren't anywhere close to the same page as our greatest minds.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_10:_Rules_for_Dev...
Do you understand that this is just a constitutional crisis? I reckon musk ended up appointing kids because they also did not understand the political and ethical implications of all this.
Also, that was during WW2 which would likely skew those #s (though I would actually expect to much older, as in not most-fit-military age)
The age of modern quantum mechanics started in 1925. Heisenberg received the Nobel Prize for his 1927 work on the uncertainty principle in 1932 at the age of 31. 10 years later the Manhattan Project started.
There just weren’t that many older scientists with training in the field. Young PhDs were only a few years removed from the first discoveries that enabled nuclear physics to leap forward.
> Despite this leavening of older men (Oppenheimer was thirty-eight), the group's average age was only twenty-four.
As some one who just turned 40. This does make sense. Perhaps the biggest deal about aging especially in the downswing is the countdown to death keeps getting closer as you go. You do tend to care less about things around you.
Im beyond the point I would take offence on anything, but Im also beyond the point I would do something to impress somebody. There is no trying twice from here. Things either work with something/somebody or you move on to something/somebody that does/do.
I definitely was more tenacious as a young man, with projects and relationships. I'd move heavens to make something work. Now they have work or something new is sought. As an aging person I care more about less noise, bullshit and more stability. Guys like me are needed for continuity of life. Whereas younger men are needed to bring about big leap frog changes.
The world needs the young and old for both progress and sanity.
I’m some sort of off-brand late comer Scots Canadian so my opinion is essentially alien and invalid to people like you but I’ve got to ask:
Why does the incestuous name dropping qualify anyone especially?
Peter Thiel is expressly trying to (and vocally so) speed run everything into the apocolypse and is very worried about the anti christ (apparently). He’s also running a massive surveillance dragnet and wants power and money above all. Again, his words.
How in the global fuck does working for or being awarded by a person with those ambitions qualify anyone for anything?
You may as well have said they attend church every sunday as their qualification.
If you said, well he has spent 10 years developing high availability systems and invented novel algorithms or implementations for managing high volume data flows or something then maybe there would be something to talk about.
But I’ve seen baby faced juniors elevated to senior and management roles and bungle them SO badly that it alienated all the actual engineering talent again and again because they were little more than virtual blood boys.
It sounds more like this latter scenario is the most likely.
Its just all goddamned hype men and their blood boys up and down this grotesque beast of what was once an industry.
With those words you don’t work in an industry, you serve a new segment of technolords and their only goal is to eat everything.
Among numerous other laws listed in
https://www.citizen.org/wp-content/uploads/1-Complaint-7.pdf
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_Act_of_1974
You're making things up.
FTFY
It's a shame Wired is behaving this way.
Getting named and shamed as hard as possible is the least that should happen to them
I used to scoff when people said “TDS” was a real thing, but having observed the same with Elon over the years and then listening to hours long talks between him and others, I realised “EDS” is clearly also a thing. And lo and behold: Listening to full long-form talks with Trump revealed a person wholly different to what media portrays.
And as a disclaimer, no I don’t agree with everything they do or say. But they’re not the monsters the monsters in the media machinery spin them up to be either.
The real monsters are those that purposefully trim and clip and stitch together falsehoods out of context, and then believe their own lies until they’re willing to throw other citizens under a figurative bus just because they work with or for “those people”.
I mean… Yeah I’m not even going to bother.
But apparently in this country, you have to be either pro government waste or pro DOGE. No middle ground or common sense allowed.
> But apparently in this country, you have to be either pro government waste or pro DOGE. No middle ground or common sense allowed.
Take a close look at who is creating two sides. Perhaps there is more nuance to the points being made by the people who do not seem to be pro DOGE.
There are quite some admiration for CCP from the american new right like moldbug and musk, It seems either they took a page from CCP, or happen to think alike.
In my experience, youth has little to do with honesty or corruptibility.
Oh definitely. They often don't have the experience to question what they're told or see the holes and deceptions in it. For instance: they'd be more easily fooled by a fake deadline. Or in this case, they may trust and follow their leader like a little zealot, even when he's wrong and doing bad things.
They won't do graft. They will follow orders. Even and especially when the orders are corrupt.
If you're the king of a nation, anyone trying to convince your knights to overthrow you is a corrupting force. But at the same time you could be a brutal ruler corrupted by power, and it is the knights that are trying to upturn the corrupt system.
I honestly believe, cheating is a primal trait. Age has little to do with it. In fact young cheats are likely to cheat with more enthusiasm and energy than elder cheats.
Safe enough to say, age has nothing to do with this.
It has a lot to do with naivete and not having the confidence to stand up when needed.
There's a lot of easily indoctrinated, exploitable idealistic youth out there. A lot of organizations run on them.
Young grads from big urban usually don’t do well with local mid aged bureaucrats. That type of human nature tension is what’s being leveraged here.
Of course it is easy to imagine that the people they are removing are those who made principled stands rather than the corrupt who keep their heads down. As in they are removing the people who thought their job was to serve the public rather than line their own pockets?
It is not clear if that is the effect the chiefs want or not.
The only one would be for the grads to take bribes from the local gov officials, but if the central government sent enough grads it would be too many to bribe.
[1]:https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/31/economy/china-local-governmen...
They are going through a real estate crash and their demographic situation bodes a very bleak long term future.
They also like economics and finance people. Premier Li Keqiang has a PhD in Economics from Peking University. Zhu Rongji, a former premier, had a strong economics and mathematics background.
I am not a fan of American techno-libertarianism nor the Chinese CCP but Europe needs more engineers and economists (from math heavy programs) in politics.
[1]: https://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/world/asia/xi-jinping-of-...
[2]:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaW49Ygxo4A
Bonus point if said child is using his mother political ties to organise an international drug smuggling ring.
Fuck, am I glad that I live in Europe and not that corrupt shithole USA.
Too young to have the experience to know what's a good idea and what's a bad idea. Too young to question what they're doing. Too young to push back when things are going wrong. Too young to have life experience and so are far easier to shape and indoctrinate.
Musk pledged his commitment to China's core socialist values: https://www.mediaite.com/news/elon-musk-signs-letter-pledgin...
Musk advocated for the submission of Taiwan to China: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/oct/08/elon-musk...
Musk thinks China rocks: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/31/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-china-ro...
This drive for uber efficiency can 1) make government more fragile (see toilet paper supply issues during the pandemic) and 2) be a slippery slope to dehumanization (see paper clip maximizing problem).
If we removed much of the executive branch's power, it wouldn't be "less efficient". The government just wouldn't do anything.
Some people (current GOP) seems to think this would be a good thing.
The list can go on and on.
There's probably some theory about power being like the conservation of energy, in that it doesn't get destroyed, just transformed or moved. Take power away from the government and that power doesn't just make people more free, it just goes somewhere else. Clearly the intent is to move that power from the government (which is at least nominally meant to protect citizens) to companies/the rich.
If they see themselves first as Members of Congress, then they should try to seek more power for Congress, not for their parties.
Your average supermarket has limited shelf space and stocks to the level that it will reliably clear shelves before new supply turns up, or things spoil.
If a whole much of people just buy one extra pack that week, this can easily empty the shelves... Which then gets posted to social media to imply a supply problem, which then prompts people to increase their buying rate.
There's no solution to this other then education: there was no supply issue, and never was. Any "solution" would be concluding that a supermarket should devote an absurd amount of shelf space to toilet paper, just in case misinformation goes viral again.
What I read at the time also said that it's very hard for a plant to shift from making commercial to residential toilet paper, that the margins are paper thin (pun intended) and so it would take a lot of time and money to retool.
But that wasn't the cause of the problem: the cause of the problem was people thinking "oh I'm not sure about a shortage, better buy an extra pack" (I know we did) for just one week...and then someone posts an "empty store shelves!!!" image on social media...which in turn prompts another group of people to do the same at another store, and then the idiot-brigade scalpers get involved. There's still no actual shortage though! The amount of toilet paper being produced is the same, the consumption rate is the same, people have just changed their stockpiling preference and the rate at which they do is spreading faster then any conceivable supply chain adjustment. But the actual consumption rate hasn't changed at all.
The idiot-brigade scalpers are worth commenting on because IMO there's a second factor which usually turns up: it's kind of fun to "buy out the supermarket" of some good. Like there's a child-like glee of going "I'll totally buy all of it" but most people don't consider that you can do this for any one item in the supermarket for like, $300 on the spot. It's just there's no reason too - partly because it's the most expensive possible way to buy almost anything.
You seem to have entirely missed the point of the comment you’re replying to. The consumption rate of residential toilet paper increased. Have you seen actual commercial toilet paper and considered its texture and, more critically, the size and shape of the rolls? While it’s possible for someone to awkwardly wipe using a monster roll of commercial paper at home, the commercial roll is not really a desirable substitute for residential TP.
Feels like Chesterton fences are getting torn up left and right by people too young and incurious to possibly understand why those fences might be there.
With the debt ceiling ever increasing, approaching a trillion dollars in interest per year, nearing $6k/year per working individual, I would say the correct time to put any effort, whatsoever, into reducing spending, was 20 years ago.
I think the fundamental problem is we lack adversarial systems within the government: it doesn't like to hurt itself. Trying to cut jobs/waste/find fraud is political/career suicide for anyone in government. Accountability requires a true adversary/"outsider". Should that be DOGE, or its current implementation? Probably not. Should the adversarial concept of DOGE exist? I would enjoy seeing arguments against the concept. It seems like it's severely needed.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/GFDEGDQ188S
Go high enough, interest payments consume the entire federal budget. There is no way out except revenue growth (infeasible without breakthrough productivity improvements), taxation, and printing money (equivalent to taxation). Before that point, other bad things happen such as creditors losing faith in the government, making debt more expensive and destabilizing the dollar's position as global reserve currency.
Over the last few decades, debt has continued to rise as a percentage of the federal budget, and appears that trend will continue without drastic action.
At the end of the day, the Japanese market is huge and people want access to it. Same thing goes for the US.
If the private market doesn’t want bonds, the central bank can purchase them. That’s not inflationary. What is inflationary is how the government then spends that money, but that’s true for any government spending, regardless of how it was financed. Either way, the debt ratios is literally meaningless.
1. Nobody is losing confidence in the US over debt ratios. Japan’s debt ratio is over 300%, and they’ve had no issues with financing their spending or capital flight. This is a myth that has been proven false.
2. If the private market doesn’t want to purchase bonds, the central bank can do it. Either way, there is never a need to default on debt owed in your sovereign currency. This will never happen. The risk here is inflation, but that risk is always present, regardless of how spending is financed.
1. Japan is a net creditor nation, meaning it owns more foreign assets than it owes in debt. The U.S., on the other hand, is a net debtor nation, meaning it relies heavily on foreign investors to finance its deficits. Japan also has a high domestic savings rate, and a large portion of its debt is held by its own citizens and institutions. This reduces capital flight risks compared to the U.S., which depends more on foreign investors (e.g., China, Japan, and others buying U.S. Treasuries). The U.S. dollar is the world’s reserve currency, which gives the U.S. unique advantages, but also means its debt is held globally. A loss of confidence in U.S. debt could have larger consequences compared to Japan.
2. U.S. benefits from strong global demand for the dollar, but this is not guaranteed forever. If the Federal Reserve were to absorb all bond issuance ( basically monetizing the debt), inflation expectations would rise sharply, leading to a currency crisis or higher interest rates. Zimbabwe and Weimar Germany are extreme examples of this.
U.S. essentially "exports" its debt due to its persistent trade deficits. U.S. runs large trade deficits, meaning it imports more goods than it exports. Other countries (like China and Japan) accept U.S. dollars in exchange for their goods, and then reinvest those dollars into U.S. assets, primarily Treasury bonds. This has helped finance U.S. debt at low interest rates for decades. If global confidence in U.S. debt declines, foreign demand for Treasuries could drop, leading to a weaker dollar, higher interest rates, and inflationary pressures.
All of your comments in this thread are misleading.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_international_investment_p...
What do you think happens if the debt goes up? Do you think the government is gonna go bankrupt? That’s literally not how it works.
Do you think inflation is gonna happen? Again, literally not how it works. In fact, too low public spending means you get deflation which is even worse than inflation.
I will admit that I don't understand economics, but infinite free money hacks seem too good to be true.
The government wants the economy to operate at close to full capacity, so it creates money and spends it into the private sector.
Eventually that money makes it to individuals, who want to save some of that money. There’s also foreign agents that might want to hold on to your currency, and trade happening that means some of your money leaves your country.
If the government maintains steady spending, this money supply slowly dwindles, which leads to a shrinking economy.
So governments issue debt to offset that dwindling money supply. The catch is that spending that doesn’t create real resources is inflationary, so you have to spend money on things that eventually earn you more money.
At the end of the day, that’s the idea of macro economics. Spend enough to get your economy growing, while making sure inflation doesn’t go up too much. Which is why people that complain about debt have no idea what they’re talking about.
But all of this has nothing to do with the debt.
You're the one that has no idea what hes talking about.
Debt uncontrollably going up without something to balance it means exactly that. If the debt exceeds the GDP, which is where the US is clearly going, we are looking at a collapse of the US dollar and its global influence. Theres no telling what will happen after that because its unfathomable
This is also why the techbros are staging a coup on the US, so the US doesnt come for the billions when it goes bankrupts
> means you get deflation which is even worse than inflation
2. People regularly come up with this theory that prices dropping is a terrible thing. An extraordinary claim for which I've never seen an argument I accepted and the evidence is as thin as a rake. Typically the countries that experience the horrors of deflation go on to be unusually wealthy and prosperous - I'd like to see more of it. But it is easy to see why the governments would believe deflation is bad that since they are typically enormous debtors and inflation favours debtors.
Frankly I suspect that if prices go down all else equal most people will be better off and able to afford more stuff. Wild take, I know.
Especially given that "prices always up"="good" is counter-intuitive and I can't find anyone with a clear argument in favour of inflation. There is lots of gobbledegook and occasionally people who make arguments equivalent to holidays being bad because they reduce economic output. Which is an argument but not very persuasive, I'd prefer to optimise towards an end state where I get to live out a permanent comfortable holiday; even if the economic metrics go down. I like comfort.
EU - Still to see the long term consequences, but it isn't obvious the deflation was the bad thing in the story.
Hong Kong - Jewel of Asia.
Ireland - Very high HDI and GDP ppp per capita.
Japan - Economic success story.
UK - Can't argue that they're a success! But their problems after WWI wasn't the deflation.
US - Some good some bad, lots to debate, but the latest episode (Great depression in the 1930s) set them up to conquer the world and establish the Not-An-Empire they have now. If that is a bad outcome I fear the good ones.
I'm not seeing the Zimbabwe equivalent. In fact it looks a lot like deflation is associated with - if not a precursor to - long term economic success and prosperity.
'prices dropping' often includes labor as well, since currency is primarily a medium of exchange.
If you go through the arguments, inflation/deflation are both mostly neutral because people just adjust their expectations by whatever they think the rate will be. In practice though inflation policy is typically masking money printing projects or policies that destroy wealth. And by reversing that, deflation is usually positive but only because it suggests that the political leadership at the time was interested in honest market signals rather than seizing an opportunity to conduct handouts.
> 'prices dropping' often includes labor as well, since currency is primarily a medium of exchange.
Inflation or deflation, by definition, doesn't impact how much someone can buy in real terms. Because wages and goods are theoretically changing at the same rate.
From your earlier post: > Frankly I suspect that if prices go down all else equal most people will be better off and able to afford more stuff. Wild take, I know.
As you mention above, this isn't likely to actually be that different.
But:
>In practice though inflation policy is typically masking money printing projects or policies that destroy wealth
Inflation rewards moving money into goods, and deflation rewards moving money out of goods. Generally, an economy where money moves around is better than one where it sits idle. Yes, it does penalize saving cash (), which offends many puritan mindsets (including mine), but it rewards risk-taking and committing your currency towards capital, both of which tend to make the economy more productive.
() - So, if your 'wealth' is in currency, then inflation does devalue your wealth. But if your wealth is in capital, that capital should fluctuate with the currency, and inflation doesn't devalue that.
If you’re arguing a fringe point of view please make that clear up front. If I knew you think deflation is good I wouldn’t have ever replied.
And by the way, you say Japan is an economic success story because of deflation, but I guess you never bothered looking up their 300% debt ratio that they have been running for decades, exactly because they didn’t want deflation to ruin their economy.
Well, this comment is off to a bad start. What about a very small economy of 1 widget that can be produced and sold for $2 per unit time, then a technological change that causes the equilibrium to move to 2x widgets for $1 apiece in over the same time? The real production of the economy has doubled, and experienced 50% price deflation. The same basic scenario can be developed at any economic size and complexity. No unemployment. No standard of living drop. Just people affording more stuff.
Deflation, in fact, is literally not the economy shrinking. It is a systemic reduction in prices.
> And by the way, you say Japan is an economic success story because of deflation, but I guess you never bothered looking up their 300% debt ratio that they have been running for decades, exactly because they didn’t want deflation to ruin their economy.
This is pretty typical of anti-deflation comments in my experience - what are you trying to say here? Countries manage to overwhelm themselves with high debts with inflationary monetary policy too; the problem - if there is one - is the borrowing of money. It is hard to end up in debt without borrowing money and investing it unproductively. That decision is independent of monetary policy.
And I didn't say Japan was an economic success because of deflation. There wasn't a "because".
US debt as a percentage of GDP doesn't demonstrate the continued ability to pay off the debt, since the ability to pay off the debt is dependent on that debt's interest. The issue with the debt in the current environment is that it is going to start rolling over into higher interest rates. If the debt is structured to pay higher interest then that lessens the ability to pay off the debt even if the debt as a percentage of GDP stays the same.
I don't think going from "we" to "they" would be appropriate although in hindsight it might have been a better choice.
The problem is EM and DOGE are equating “fraud and waste” to “I think it’s wasteful”, which is a judgement the adversarial auditor should not be allowed to make.
Top 1%: 40.4%
Top 5%: 61%
Top 10%: 72%
Top 25%: 87.2%
Top 50%: 97%
Bottom 50%: 3%
That hardly looks regressive. Is there some other standard by which you are judging whether tax policy is sufficiently graduated enough?
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/latest-federal-in...
I know you're making a good faith argument, but you're twisting the definition of regressive. For example, if a country has one citizen with an income of 1 trillion, and one hundred thousand citizens with an income of $10,000 each, the trillionaire would still pay over 99% of taxes even if taxes were proportional.
The point is that with severe income inequality, it is fair that the super rich pay a very, very high proportion of taxes. The 40.4% seems high for the "top 1%" of the population, but if you replace "top 1%" with their actual average income, the comparison is less misleading.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/sarahhansen/2021/06/08/richest-...
the 25 richest Americans (by Forbes’ tally) paid a “true tax rate” of just 3.4% on wealth growth of $401 billion between 2014 and 2018.
It is not a legit source for progressive tax policy.
The Congressional Budget Office has been the most reputable source for tax policy data. The current director was appointed by Trump 2019 and was retained through Biden's presidency.
The CBO is very wonky and so far as withstood partisan meddling by presidents.
Now let's see control of assets.
The national debt increased because we increased the amount of the federal government does, it the income tax.
More than 100% of the net improvement is from tech and medical R&D, not the bloated military-welfare apparatus.
Hell, we were borrowing before we had states.
In 1960 the top tax rate was 91%. In 1980 it was 70%. Reagan dropped it to 35% and it's stayed below 40% since. Then add in that corporations and the wealthy have moved away from having normal income that isn't taxed (loans backed by assets) and you've lost half the tax revenue that paid for cheap housing, nearly free healthcare and public college and you have a healthy society and middle class.
But then to screw the pooch even more, Bush printed 5 trillion for his wars and two tax cuts. Trump printed money for his tax cuts too. (these expenses were never in the annual budget - they just printed the money)
Tesla, one of the richest corporations in our country just reported 0% tax in three years.
Our national debt has nothing to do with the annual budget and expenses, including USAID and helping Ukraine.
It is 100% because of tax policy.
So what actually is driving the national debt higher? The never popular answer is entitlement spending (Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid) + interest, which is exasperated by an aging population. In fact, almost all future debt growth is driven by these programs. The rest of the budget is expected to balance out. Tax revenue is expected to increase, and discretionary spending is expected to fall as a % of GDP.
Replace Medicare and Medicaid with a socialised 1 payer system as it would be much cheaper. The numbers I saw was that the current system costs 48t and 1 payer system would be 32t. And negotiate down costs and all materials and drugs on top of that.
Simple - the payroll tax doesn't raise enough funds to cover the full cost of the program. Even if it did raise 100% of the needed funds, that's still money Congress cannot tax a second time. At the end of the day, the government has two buckets: income and expenses. It doesn't matter whether some of that income is called "payroll tax", and some of it is called "income tax". Every cent raised through a payroll tax, is a cent that cannot be raised through an income tax, and visa-versa.
>Replace Medicare and Medicaid with a socialised 1 payer system as it would be much cheaper.
Yet...none of the advocates of a socialized healthcare system have ever put forward a real bill that can be rated by the Congressional Budget Office. Instead, they put forward shell bills which importantly lack any funding mechanisms.
> The numbers I saw was that the current system costs 48t and 1 payer system would be 32t.
The current system is divided between public and private spending. Even if you could reduce the overall cost to 32T, that's still a net cost increase on the public side. How will the government raise that money? The advocates for social healthcare never say.
If it's removed and replaced with nothing do you just let old people die in the streets? Or did you want to keep the tax but stop paying out? I don't see how the outcome is different then.
Increase income tax on the wealthy? It's not hard, you used to do it.
The government "borrowed" from the SS fund. That's why it's endangered. The money was there and it should still be there.
The government also screwed the postal service by taking their profits (one of the few things in government that actually makes one) and then yells at them for not making enough income.
We need a flat corporate and billionaire tax that has no loopholes.
Also doesn't help if you borrow against the money put in. The US is not alone in taking money from the baby's/old peoples fund unfortunately, same happened here but worse the money was just taken. Although it was mostly spend on education and construction so there is that at least.
How many times does this need to be debunked?
What I think should happen is that the vast majority of legislators (Senators/Representatives) should be furious that the Executive branch is disregarding laws that they wrote themselves. And the justices should be furious that the Executive branch is disbeying their interpretation of the law.
Indiscriminately firing federal workers whose salaries will collectively make up maybe one tenth of one percent of the budget is not at all about reducing debt, that's just the thin justification they are using the destroy any independence and competence within the government that might get in the way of their looting and corruption.
Anyone who thinks that Trump and Musk are serious about reducing the federal debt at this point aren't likely to be swayed by anything I say. But for anyone who genuinely believes that I hope you will look at what the national debt and deficit are right now, and then to check on them in a few years when both are dramatically worse. You will find that two of the most prominent bullshitters in the world are in fact bullshitting on this topic as well.
[*]: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/57444
[%]: https://www.cbo.gov/publication/60557
A socialised medical system would be much cheaper than Medicare.
This. Right. Here.
Also, make all black budget projects that involve underground alien bases public and move it all private, so Elon and other people can just directly invest in those instead of coming out of our taxes through the DOD.
On the policy side they would push for port automation. They would get rid of the Jones act. They could standardize and simplify the tax code (& get rid of loopholes like stepped up basis)
Instead they are breaking random government websites, blocking & politicizing USAID (< 1% of budget), mass firing with seemingly no plan for running various orgs, trying to increase mass incarceration (?) and reinforcing captured markets (like TurboTax).
Aren't other countries adversarial enough?
I think these are made up concerns. By and large the US is dominant in the real world, and always will be given its size, location and cultural foundations. And that translates to being able to print and spent a large amount of money, which could be used to solve real world problems, such as:
- climate change and the need to transition energy, transportation over time with some urgency
- chronic housing shortage
- education costs
Instead they're focusing on fake problems and solutions that will make the real problems worse.
Not really. There is a political strategy Republicans have engaged during this time known as "Two Santas" which can explain it:
0 - http://www.milwaukeeindependent.com/thom-hartmann/two-santas...The opposite of that play is:
Voted-in Conservatives: we are the party of fiscal responsibility. We shall reduce govt spending by running services into the ground.
Voted-in Libs: We were voted in to undo all this f*kery... gotta spend those $$$
Conservatives: Didn't we say you can't trust those libs with the $$$?
For the record - I think society needs both parties alternating in power to function properly. Either one in power forever is a mistake
> Voted-in Conservatives: we are the party of fiscal responsibility.
Conservatives are provably not. See[0].
> Voted-in Libs: We were voted in to undo all this f*kery... gotta spend those $$$
This is a common misperception, fostered in large part by the effectivity of the "Two Santas" political strategy.
0 - https://www.investopedia.com/us-national-debt-by-year-749929...
Both private and public dept have been rising rapidly since the 70/80's and the introduction of neoliberal policies. Real wages have stagnated, so Americans go into debt. Tax cuts for the rich, so the US has to borrow.
Alternatively, it's possible to increase revenue.
https://www.americanprogress.org/article/tax-cuts-are-primar...
https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-tax/the-2017-trump-tax...
https://www.propublica.org/article/national-debt-trump
https://www.budget.senate.gov/chairman/newsroom/press/extend...
He campaigned (first time) to reduce the national debt and instead exploded it by giving massive tax cuts to corporations and the wealthiest of the wealthy.
https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/trump-plan-boosts-bud...
Something something promises something kept?
US Government Accountability Office already existed to do this, without it being career suicide for those involved (at least until Trump began attempting to end it despite being nonpartisan)
https://usafacts.org/answers/how-much-does-the-us-federal-go...
You would have to cut entitlements if you're relying on cuts alone, and those require Congressional action to change. It's absolutely wild people actually believed Musk without spending a few minutes understanding the issue.
$250 - $500 billion are lost to fraud, every year[1]. That's near 40% of social security spending.
[1] https://www.gao.gov/products/gao-24-105833#:~:text=GAO%20est...
A Russian puppet candidate could not do more damage to this country than what the Trump administration is doing right now.
Nothing being done fights the large causes of fraud/waste/abuse. Nothing being done helps the cost of housing or the cost of healthcare or college or fuel.
The so called successes of the tariff wars so far have been done at the expense of our long term credibility as a nation.
Find me a Republican president who did not increase the national debt.
Addressing the DOD's accounting failures is a first step -- famously admitted to by Don Rumsfeld:
Rumsfeld says, “Our financial systems are decades old. According to some estimates, we cannot track 2.3 trillion dollars in transactions. We cannot share information from floor to floor in this building. Because it's stored on dozens of different technological systems that are inaccessible or incompatible.”
There's zero incentive to cut waste -- in fact the opposite. At the end of the fiscal year it's SOP to spend every last penny in the budget on anything they can, just to ensure their budget isn't cut.
Afghanistan and Iraq cost the US ~$6T and we got nothing to show for it.
There's got to be a reasonable center between "God bless the US Military" and "Shut it all down".
He now has significant influence over all of those things. Official government communications are only being released on X, incentivizing people to use it. The next NASA contract is going to be awarded by people who know their boss’ boss’ boss’ boss’ boss owes his political career to the owner of one of the bidders. Last quarter, a quarter of Tesla’s net income was unrealized Bitcoin profits – and he’s pushing the government to subsidize Bitcoin so it can get the kind of adoption it hasn’t been able to achieve on merit!
This is why government ethics rules exist, and why high-level officials have public confirmation hearings. Even if he was incredibly scrupulous about not making decisions based on his own interests, it reeks of corruption and provides many avenues for potential abuse (e.g. what if China threatened to seize his factories unless he helped them get a better deal?). The federal employees he’s attacked have annual training reminding them that they can’t accept gifts over $20/year – and really shouldn’t even then – with consequences up to going to jail for a long time.
Yes Tesla benefits from credits caused by other companies not meeting co2 targets set by the government but that wouldn't have been enough to save them from three near bankruptcies. And yes, they are still quite a ways away from being a leader in overall quality and consistency but yhey are executing extremly well in their R&D compared to other US car companies only to be outdone by the Chinese, certainly not any US company.
[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNWYk4DdT_E
As someone solidly on the left, this has really frustrated me to no end with the typical lefist sources I watch. In 2025 Facts really matter but all I see are facts being omitted to push a narrative (ie. Elon wasn't the founder of Tesla, Tesla/SpaceX is just alive because of the government subsidizes, Elon does not know anything about how to make a car/rocket).
They cite his bad behavior or screwups in reforming Twitter but unless you have followed everything that Elon has accomplished/failed at you are lying by omission. This is especially dangerous now because by dismissing him as dumber than he really is, you are setting him up for surprise successes because people let their guard down.
This is what I see on /r/fednews at how shocked they are over how fast he is moving at his slash and burn.
You would have known this had you followed the whole Twitter saga very closely, the early days of Tesla where they ousted the original CEO for deliberately lying to the board, and the three near bankruptcies of the company where Elon pulled out hail mary after hail mary to save the company.
Tesla is getting cooked by Chinese carmakers and only tariffs or outright bans can help. In EU their sales are falling quickly due to his salute.
When Elon runs his companies, he is beholden to shareholders to use the company's resources effectively to generate and maintain value.
Who is Elon beholden to when managing public funding and programs as an unelected non-official? Who will vote him out when he wasn't voted in? Who will revoke his confirmation when he was never confirmed?
What is happening in DC (currently) has broad public support.
Things have been moving quite quickly, so this seems like a premature judgement. Can you cite a survey that shows that levels of support for disbanding USAID, for example; or taking over the treasury system; or "deleting" DirectFile?
I am responding to a specific comment about public support. Besides surveys, what method would you suggest for accurately determining public support for particular policies? And leave your self-satisfied partisan snark out of it.
I’m ecstatic about everything that’s being done to make the country better right now. We’re again moving in the right direction. That’s what matters to me.
Then why are you responding to my objection to a post asserting the alleged popularity of current actions? Are you just interesting in spreading snark and bitterness without any thought or substance?
> I’m ecstatic about everything that’s being done to make the country better right now. We’re again moving in the right direction. That’s what matters to me.
Oh, sorry, I didn't realize that you're dumb. What's happening right now is vandalism of the government.
After the election he’s not. Only has to appease a handful of congress critters and a few wealthy people.
- Safety checks are dismantled
- Decisions are made at the whim of an executive
- Executives surround themselves with sycophants
We have electric vehicles (something that would not have happened without TSLA)
On the other side, the corruption is obvious with billions spent on 8 EV chargers.
https://x.com/SecretaryPete/status/1861214037435900357
TSLA doubled in value in the month after the election, despite the financials of the company going down. The only reason for the increase in share price is because the market expects Musk to benefit from Trump's corruption, in the form of less oversight and more government subsidies.
One thing that seems worth think through more is whether the stated outcomes of those agencies is what's actually be optimized for, or whether those are suborned for personal gain by a few parties.
Of the approximately 70,000 Tesla employees in the US, fewer than 2,000 are H-1B workers. The rest are US citizens or permanent residents. Tesla's manufacturing is much more vertically integrated than other auto manufacturers, so they rely almost entirely on their US factories to produce the cars they sell in the US. Other auto makers tend to do more manufacturing overseas to save on labor/safety/environmental costs, then do final assembly in the US to avoid tariffs.
Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy.
usually at the cost of the workers, environment, etc.
> Bureaucratic agencies are optimized for more bureaucracy
they are designed for continuity because people die when they suddenly stop functioning.
And his buddy the president is happily sending the currency and stock markets up and down with his every idiotic tariff announcement. I wonder if the top man at DOGE is on the list of people who Trump tips off?
Musk, Trump and half this administration are off-the-charts corrupt.
If treasury money is diverted to his private interests, that is waste and perhaps fraud. But to him it achieves the same end (personal profit) as capital efficiency of orgs under his own ownership, not just his control
The first country to pull out has the chance to make like $100 billion by creating the next TikTok competitor that never takes down content for violating anyone's copyright. It'll be like Edison moving to Hollywood all over again! Let the gold rush begin!
We haven't declared war since WWII, but we've waged a number of them.
The Congressional budget process is fundamentally broken and increasingly nondemocratic - the leadership of both parties get "continuing resolutions" passed while they draft a mountainous "omnibus" bill that includes all their pork and graft, then they whip the members of the majority party to pass it without reading it.
The Congressional oversight committees are usually captured by the industries and/or agencies they oversee.
Congressional hearings are not used to inform Congress or the people; they're nakedly partisan acting gigs for committee members.
Congress has unconstitutionally delegated much of its authority to a bureaucracy run by the executive branch, intending to have it operate independently of the president. Now we have a president who is choosing to exercise his authority over the executive branch.
Of course, it is illegal and unconstitutional for the president to eliminate programs that are established by law. But remember the executive branch bureaucracy ONLY exists to allow the president to implement the laws passed by Congress. If the laws aren't explicit or delegate to an executive branch agency HOW they law/program will be implemented, then the president has enormous authority over how to implement it, and there is nothing Constitutionally wrong with that. So if the president says "we don't need 10000 people to implement CFR 1.2.3 section 4, we only need 10", and he can implement the law/program as passed by Congress with 10 people, then he's allowed to do that.
The big problem is that Congress MUST depend on the executive branch to, er, execute. Whatever is required to implement the law, that isn't specified in the law, is up to the executive branch, and the President is the head of that branch.
And all this BS about "classification" again only exists to enable the president to do his job. If the president says someone can have access to something, that is non-negotiable, as two USAID folks found out over the weekend. The bureaucracy has for decades used classification to make a currency out of secrets and to try to avoid oversight. Looks like that ride has ended.
Where did you go? I am in a position to leave, but not sure where to go.
If you move anywhere else, you risk making it worse for yourself.
One option is Taiwan which gives gold cards to people with impressive GitHubs.
Ummm... yeah, I think that could easily end up in the category of "making it worse for yourself" given the geopolitical risk.
What generation was raised to respect those institutions? Because the boomers were against them and their policies, and Gen X was cynical about them...
As we Millenials have gotten older, we too have seen through the veil and realized the system isn't perfect. More importantly, perhaps, we've seen the wide range of ways people react to this imperfect system. Some have chosen to undermine its very foundations to get their way, leaving many to wonder what we're left with if -- to loosely quote Whose Line Is It Anyway -- the rules are made up and the points don't matter.
Much as we like to kvetch about Clinton (and I've certainly done my share of it, and certainly much of the criticism has merit), if there was a "golden age" of America in recent memory, the Clinton era was it.
As far as the article, Musk is a mixed bag. On the one hand, I think it is a good idea to have an entity concern itself with improving the efficiency and reducing the bloat of the bureaucracy of the federal government and Musk is not a dummy, he is the richest person in the world and runs some quite high-profile companies. On the other hand, it is hard to deny Musk is a little bit of a buffoon: fighting with Asmongold on X over his clear lies about video games is sort of unbelievable, telling Americans to "F [themselves] in the FACE" if they don't want all high-skilled jobs in this country to go to H-1Bs, and various other sort of juvenile things. Having these kids that Musk has hired to run-around the federal government is probably not the best thing but I think this doomsday stuff is completely silly.
He also just pardoned a bunch of criminals who physically assaulted police, desecrated Congress, because… they were on his side? That’s simply unprecedented. I don’t need a “party leader” to tell me that’s wrong.
Their goal seems to be to dismantle the federal government and buy up assets and land. Then form micro countries like above with themselves as king/CEO.
https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no
Which Congress authorized and funded.
Congress, historically, has made formal declarations of war only at the request of the President. No President has asked for one in decades nor are they required to make war.
Furthemore, the Constitution's Article I, Section 8, Clause 11 specifically enumerates declaring war as a power of Congress:
>> [The Congress shall have Power] To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/article-1/section-8...
The precedent is well understood. The President may ask for authorization for any extended war and for a formal declaration, if desired. Then, and only then, will Congress act. Congress will not issue a declaration absent being asked by Commander of the military, for obvious reasons.
This idea that Congress is somehow not doing its job because it's not issuing a formal declaration that were not requested nor required, is simply nonsense.
Frankly, if requesting authorization was the same thing as requesting a declaration, then one could just as easily argue Congressional approval of funding for a war is a declaration.
And the president doesn't have the authority to declare war on his or her own accord, full stop, because the constitution explicitly gives that right to Congress (and no other branch).
Any convoluted timelines around requests are immaterial to those facts.
If the president uses the military to attack an enemy of the state, without Congressional approval, that's outside of his or her authority.
So good luck relying on rule of law.
You can't, though. It's ossified too much. The constitution was always meant to be a living document, but now it's a sacred text for which new amendments are practically inconceivable.
Unfortunately, the speedrun to an autocracy won't be, the market's fine with that one.
We desperately need term limits. Age limits might make sense too but term limits would mostly take care of that.
"So Sue them"
It will take a long time to go through the courts, the courts may not care, and even if they do, you can usually appeal and drag your feet long enough that it doesn't matter. Oh, and bonus here, if you become president again you get another reset. It's illegal, but there's no recourse for action.
It's a DDoS on the legal system and he's got all three branches by the balls. The courts can intervene in some of the cases some of the time, but it won't intervene in all of the cases all of the time.
The only way forward here is if everybody in the federal government either does the same thing, or that they become so ineffective and unreliable at _their_ jobs that everything is slowed down enough for the courts to intervene.
... right up until they pretend they're not and never were when the political winds shift again. Though, maybe the winds no longer shift in these parts ...
much of congress is actually just too afraid to say anything because they'll get labelled as RINOs and voted out.
So far he has more or less adhered to the plans he and the rest of the crew that coalesced around his campaign over the summer and undoubtedly led to his election said they would do. I would argue that the campaign’s plans were the most accessible of any campaign so far - dozens of hours of discussion on podcasts and the like by him and potential cabinet members, and video addresses for specific policy plans on the agenda 47 website.
For example, Musk made it very clear that the intention with DOGE was to move fast and break things, saying (perhaps ignorantly) that if it turns out something was necessary, you just put it back.
Judging by some of the surprised Pikachu responses from his voters I'm seeing, I think people took him at his word when he said he had nothing to do with it and never read it. Because he lied about his intentions to voters, you can't not say he has a mandate.
Edit: not only that, but they didn't close USAID entirely: they just closed the USAID headquarters, and installed Marco Rubio as the new head of USAID. While this may or may not be desirable, I don't see how this is actually illegal. The specific organization of USAID was established by executive order; this is one of the many consequences of the Republicans winning control of the executive branch of government.
That was true in 1961, but not in the 63 years since then. The Foreign Assistance Act has been amended many times with specific requirements since written for the by then already existing United States Agency for International Development[1]
[1] https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-1071/pdf/COMPS-107...
This framing seems disingenuous given the already far reaching effects of the frozen funding, the layoffs, the shut down of communications, the shuttered offices, and, apparently, giving non government employees unfettered access to its computer systems.
But yes, shutting down the USAID or trying to muddy the waters by saying it'll totally still exist, they'll just somehow run it out of the state department and not fund anything should indeed not be possible without an act of congress.
1: https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:22%20section:...
> Not later than 60 days after October 21, 1998
I’m pretty sure it’s now 2025, which is more than 60 days after Oct 21, 1998. Therefore, the president does not have power to abolish USAID. Please try again.
>> Memorandum of President of the United States, Mar. 31, 1999, 64 F.R. 17079, provided...
(It was actually delegating power to revise the USAID reorganization plan—which was not a abolition—and to set the effective date of then part of the reorg that was not transfer of mandatory functions to the Secretary of State.)
Regardless, the agency is a party to contracts which it is currently breaking. The actions of DOGE are causing the US to break contracts, which is illegal.
I’m suspicious, but I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised we’ve hit the “one simple trick” era of governing.
1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Aeronautics_and_Space...
2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Agency_for_Inter...
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?hl=false&edition=prelim&...
Unless abolished pursuant to the reorganization plan submitted under section 6601 of this title, and except as provided in section 6562 of this title, there is within the Executive branch of Government the United States Agency for International Development as an entity described in section 104 of title 5. [1]
And here's the text of section 6601, which explains how to abolish USAID:
(a) Submission of plan and report Not later than 60 days after October 21, 1998, the President shall transmit to the appropriate congressional committees a reorganization plan and report regarding-
(1) the abolition of the United States Arms Control and Disarmament Agency, the United States Information Agency, and the United States International Development Cooperation Agency in accordance with this chapter;
(2) with respect to the Agency for International Development, the consolidation and streamlining of the Agency and the transfer of certain functions of the Agency to the Department in accordance with section 6581 of this title;
(3) the termination of functions of each covered agency as may be necessary to effectuate the reorganization under this chapter, and the termination of the affairs of each agency abolished under this chapter;
(4) the transfer to the Department of the functions and personnel of each covered agency consistent with the provisions of this chapter; and
(5) the consolidation, reorganization, and streamlining of the Department in connection with the transfer of such functions and personnel in order to carry out such functions.
The President can abolish USAID, or can streamline it, or terminate functions within it, according to your own provided links, and only has to submit a report about it.
1: https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?hl=false&edition=prelim&...
2: https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:22%20section:...
“Not later than 60 days after October 21, 1998”
That provision expired 26 years ago.
Article I, Section 8, Clause 1:
> The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States
Edit: Daww, no sense of humor?
Hell, the guy is able to re-run and win the elected office again after being impeached a few times during his previous administration. Congress needs to affirm his impeachment to force him out of office and that requires a supermajority, which will never happen. Trump could kill someone on national TV and he would maybe get impeached, but he'd have enough friends in congress defending his actions that he would still be president. I mean he's already a convicted criminal.
That's why he just doesn't care anymore and is going crazy as if no laws exist. Laws mean nothing to him. At worst they are an annoyance or noise to him, but he already proved that nothing can stop him.
Now are there any cracks in this system? Probably. But we dont have a president with unlimited power than can only be checked by congress at this point.
US Doomers are expecting something similar to the Civil War movie in the next few years, the reality will be more similar to "The Lives Of Others".
"The rest of the world" will not carry on unscathed if the worse end of the range of possible outcomes for the US happen.
(I'm deeply curious about how fiveeyes intelligence operations with Canada are going right now.)
And I say that as a fellow US citizen that has born witness to the abuses of the current bureaucracy.
Good luck with that.
By flagrantly violating the laws and constitution they are doing more than dismantle the bureaucracy. They are removing the very protections that exist to protect you from the petty bureaucrats that you disdain. A government as large as ours cannot function without a bureaucracy, and there is no guarantee the current one's replacement will be as free from corruption, sycophancy, and pettiness as our current one (despite its flaws).
In fact there is ample evidence the new bureaucracy they are creating has just one goal - to do whatever their dear leader asks of them. Try to criticize Nazi rhetoric on X and see how long you last. Now imagine the apparatus of government with the same bent. Only when governments "ban" you they have ways of making you disappear.
You think yourself safe. But everyone is guilty of something. And under a government unrestrained by the rule of law there is nothing to protect you should someone in power take offense. And someone will take offense eventually. Maybe you cut some official's ex-wife's former roommate's cousin in traffic. Or maybe you just say something one day that contradicts what the dear leader says the next.
So I say to you,
Good luck with that.
This is a direct escalation and weaponization against "people whose only crime was to disagree with the party in power," is it not?
Or have you been so "abused" by the pronoun mafia you can no longer see straight?
As a bisexual queer lefty computer programmer I wish I shared that confidence, as does ever queer or trans person I know.
I see lots of changes to the extent that we will no longer “celebrate” or subsidize LGTBQ+ or DEI issues with public funds. That seems fair to me, I don’t expect public funds to be used to celebrate my lifestyle and sexual preferences. I think that flying an LGTBQ flag over an US Embassy in another country where the citizens overwhelmingly oppose such ideas, does not further any American interest. It just makes working with such countries more difficult.
I also don’t believe in equity in the sense of discriminating against people now for wrongs of the past. I believe strongly in equality and in merit based opportunity that is not in any way tied to immutable characteristics.
I do not see any action that the government has taken as endangering anyone. I would vocally oppose any policy that I thought would harm someone (except I don’t think ending a benefit is a harm in this context).
I’m curious how you view the executive order that moves transgender women into men’s prisons. To me those prisoners are now in a danger they were not previously.
I don't agree with the framing of the question. Men's prisons are typically more violent than women's prisons. So from that perspective, statistically the person is in more danger. However if we only look at that, we would transfer everyone to women's prisons.
You are implying but not stating that there is some extraordinary targeting of trans women by prisoners in men's prisons. I don't know if that is true or not but it seems plausible. My argument is that since prisoners are intentionally kept in a defenseless state, that it is the job and moral duty of prison staff to keep prisoners safe from each other, regardless of who the prisoner is. If a specific prisoner is at unusual risk of violence (like a convicted police officer, for example), then I expect that prisons have processes in place for that.
If this is something you didn't know, Google it. Don't take my word for it.
But you are implying that because that might happen, the transgender woman should be left in the women's prison. But that carries its own risks[2] which ALWAYS get left out of these discussions. I do not automatically believe in the sincerity of men, especially those with a history of violence against women, when they arrive at prison and only afterwards declare that they are trans.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_ride_(police_brutality)
[2] https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-tran...
End the child tax credit and extra tax exemptions for being (straight) married then or shut the fuck up because the amount of money going to subsidizing that is much, much, MUCH more than what is spent on LGBTQ+/"woke"/DEI stuff. If you care about the deficit, go for those first.
It might be amusing when you are personally comfortable and do not consider the people and processes involved, but basic digging reveals this stuff. I happen to work with people like doctors, first-responders, cyber teams, military, scientists, etc whose communities are in a tailspin. It's quite vivid, and I am confused how this is even a question. The ability of people to get life-saving care is literally being removed as perishable supplies are running out and staff are working pro-bono.
A top misinformation tactic is asymmetric trolling: Ask a simple question to force the responder to spend all their time. It's hard to tell if your question is from naivete, privilege, apathy, a broken media diet, trolling, or what.
I was not trolling; I sincerely believe what I wrote.
I do not believe that anything the federal government does that is time sensitive (social security payments, etc) is being affected.
I believe that termination of programs will require Congressional action.
However I believe that there is a lot that the President is Constitutionally authorized to do, that will limit what agencies do and control how they do it, and that the courts will not be shy to step in if the administration even has the appearance of acting unconstitutionally.
I do not think that we are in any way at risk of dictatorship; I think we are quickly moving away from that since Biden left office.
I respect your opinion, but I disagree in good faith, and my disagreement is neither trolling nor uninformed parroting of social media; it’s informed by my understanding of the Constitution and the structure of government it created.
I hope I am right in my predictions and you are wrong, because I don’t want the outcome that you fear may happen.
Also, you’re going to have to be more specific about what hospital care was affected and how it was affected.
If a hospital happens to have a research wing and processing a grant proposal for researchers associated with the hospital takes a little longer than usual, I hardly consider that a crisis.
RE:Hospitals, https://www.propublica.org/article/trump-state-department-us...
The Head Start schools are pretty hard to miss as having been on blast in the media around notifying layoff notices, closures, etc being only paused last minute due to court orders
A lot of basic domestic + intl'l social programs & safety nets run on state + federal grants, and ironically, that is especially true of the Republican/MAGA preferences of non-gov religious, community chartered, etc independent charities & non-profits. A lot are on shoestring budgets - stressing these further is a terrible idea.
RE:Telework, core operational areas like cybersecurity, especially with the COVID flip 4 years ago, is now telework, and those contracts are canceled. Likewise, more qualified positions are often by special renewing appointments, so those are now failing to renew too. Most American families cannot handle multiple missing payperiods, and thus cannot afford to play chicken with the rich or apathetic on this: they're told they're fired, so even if they haven't resigned, they have to interview. With the purse strings coming into the control of those who the courts are disagreeing with, rent wins: that's part of the point. It's already hard to staff these positions given they're underpaid to beginwith, especially when regional, so this is another self-inflicted wound.
This stuff is not hard to search. Systems are more fragile then they may seem from a comfortable techie background in affluent and otherwise self-sufficient regions. I think it's a fair position to want the US to have little power in the international stage, not use its wealth to save lives, etc, and that's something to vote etc on. But rugpulling essential services in illegal ways and unilaterally breaking society is a different thing, and again, not seeing that is pretty terrible and worth calling out.
My 'deja vu' here is when COVID broke out, and while my extended network was working long hours in labs trying to sequence the virus... others were encouraging people to go to restaurants. I'm actually disinterested in the politics. I just want society to avoid breaking from stupid unforced errors. Pulling the cord on people and processes en masse sounds fun if you do not understand operations and sociopathic if you do.
Let there be no mistake about this — if my hard earned money is being stolen from me and distributed to others, I want that to stop. I don’t care what happens to the people who they are being given to.
On the other hand, most people accept that taxes are necessary in order for the government to provide services. The disagreement is fundamentally over which services are necessary. In considering this, know that keeping other Americans able to work, live, get health care, life in safety, etc, is beneficial for everyone, even you.
I should only move to another country in the same capacity as you for being upset about the size of the government being reduced right now. We all have our political opinions and “you should just move” is a lazy and stupid non-argument to make.
No, these are not the same, because your position is untenable. I disagree with decisions being made right now; my preferred policy solutions can be accomplished with moderate taxes and legislative solutions.
On the other hand, your preferred solution involves no taxes at all, because you believe that tax is theft, so you want to eliminate all taxes, and that's not how countries work. My response to your unrealistic preferences is an unrealistic proposal; that seems entirely fair to me.
It is, instead, your naive ideas about how to run the government that are lazy and stupid; it's like you haven't studied history or government at all and are clinging to some 13 year old Ayn Rand fan's ideas of libertarian utopia.
All the best to you, a person who tries to maintain a facade of rationality and objectivity in HN political discussions. That facade crumbled easily.
But sure, enjoy your performative intellectual superiority. I'm sure lots of people are impressed.
Next: People don't know what they are destroying and what other damage that will cause. Operations are fragile even without mass rug pulling. So that is another level of sociopathy to accept.
These come back to either being unaware or apathetic, which get back to social norms and ostracism.
But I will not ostracize you for having a different opinion than me, nor will I downvote you, nor will I attempt to dox you, nor will I demand your posts be censored as “misinformation”, no matter how much I disagree.
I might screenshot something you say and make a meme out of it though :-) And you are free to do the same.
Yes the reality of the situation is bleak. But to give up on impeachment would cede even more power to the executive branch.
As the economy crashes, proletariat sentiments will change. If trump is unable to get a war going, or it doesn't develop how he expects, the economy will be the obvious narrative. And if they get trump out before midterms, his endorsement isn't the same thing.
You're assuming that the founders were actually correct about a power rivalry between the branches producing a system of checks and balances between them.
As it turns out, when the whole team is rowing in the same direction, congress doesn't actually care that they've abdicated power or all responsibility to check the executive. Their personal comfort is not threatened by it, and this particular congress doesn't care about governing well.
Sure, the republic will be destroyed, but in the meantime, they'll extract a lot of value for their paymasters.
Congressmen that had a spine, and refused to do that all got primaried out.
That's not true, most just relied on him being a former president at the time of impeachment.
McConnell:
> “Former President Trump’s actions that preceded the riot were a disgraceful, disgraceful dereliction of duty…There’s no question — none — that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day… There is no limiting principle in the constitutional text that would empower the Senate to convict and disqualify former officers that would not also let them convict and disqualify any private citizen. ...The Senate’s decision today does not condone anything that happened on or before that terrible day.”
More quotes with sources:
https://www.justsecurity.org/74725/in-their-own-words-the-43...
All they would really need to do is take the existing Trump "speeches" and present them as the.word salad they are too prove him incapable of serving. That story would viewership so the media would be all over it 24-7. That's one reason Trump is rubber-stamping everything Elon says or does - he knows they have him by the balls.
Impeachment and removing him from office means the dems will need to control congress. Which can’t happen until 2027. Then, those dems will need convince at least a double digit count of GOP senators to vote to remove him and not care about facing the wrath of the MAGA base…just to get him out a couple of years before term limits do?
I kinda imagine the next 4 years will work hard towards the singular goal of eliminating those. Or he might just ignore them with a whole lot more preparation than the badly organized insurrection of last time.
Why wouldn't Pelosi want the National Guard there?
Kent State. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
Putting a bunch of moderately trained military in a chaotic situation with angry civilians is a recipe for disaster.
And if they'd opened fire on the crowd? Do you really think Trump and the Republicans would have backed that use for force?
After how they treated the United States Capitol Police officer who shot Ashli Babbitt for climbing through a broken window into the Speaker's lobby, after ignoring multiple orders to stop?
He’s out in January 2029 without a doubt.
Of course, that'll be a moot point if he continues to just ignore the constitution as he has been so far this entire term, and the other two branches continue to just let him.
We are still working on approving the equal rights amendment. That’s one that started 102 years ago, and we have been trying to get the 3/4 state’s agreement for it for only 53 years.
So no, I seriously doubt with a 50/50 divided electorate in this country that we will repeal the 22nd amendment in the less than 4 years that the US would have to do it before Trump could run again.
I grew up in a "democracy" with rigged elections and decades of one president. From TV we thought "Oh, America is such a better place, the politicians are clean, the cops are honest and can't be bought...". Hah, fucking Hollywood fairytales.
Martin Bormann's son: "What is National Socialism?"
Bormann: National Socialism is whatever the Fuhrer says it is.
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archi...
Not only that, but the impeachment first needs to make it past the House Judiciary Committee, which is controlled by Republicans and chaired by Jim Jordan. Democrats have no tools to impeach. Their best bet is to focus on the midterms.
Elections have consequences.
Democrats can’t force an impeachment, but they can try to find a handful of Republicans who still care about the rule of law. They can continue to make the case all day, every day.
Assuming that a policy can only be achieved if you can ram it down opponents throats is a sad commentary on just how authoritarian the US has become.
there simply are none
Making a noise today about impeachment would be similar. It would play into a strategy for winning the midterms. It’d generate more headlines about the blatant illegality occurring under our noses, it’d be a stick to beat rivals with come election season. No, there would be no hope of it actually resulting in an impeachment, but that would be beside the point.
From afar, it's grotesque seeing what's happening over there. Perhaps you're too close to see it.
Democrats were warning that he was lying about his intentions, and that he would in fact implement Project 2025, but that is not equivalent to him campaigning on Project 2025. I think this is an important distinction.
E.g. 'Trump was coopted by the deep state, and that's why I couldn't get it done.'
Also convenient once Trump is (a) term limited and more importantly (b) too old to be politically useful anymore.
Nobody ever votes for the President's cabinet or anyone else they bring in.
They have been doing that. The issue is that people just look at it all and think "its all political theater"
The only way anything will change is if the ~200m americans who didn't vote actually start to realize that voting matters. Texas could turn blue if all the people in the liberal areas actually voted, which would basically win the election for Democrats.
They have no power. They can't set the agenda; they can't get legislation to the floor; they can't call investigations. They certainly can't arrest lawbreakers. All they can do is make a case against the ruling party. And if they do it quietly and politely, no one will hear it. So really, it is political malfeasance for them not to be theatrical.
All they can do is make Republicans pay some price for the destruction they are bringing to the country and the world. And this requires theatrics. They have no other levers they can pull.
It's to consolidate power for the foreseeable future for a bunch of elites, so they can even more freely exploit people like you and make tons more money.
But hey, seems like people like to bend over and get MAGAed harder...
Remember you said this if/when it's your life on the line.
I have a feeling that, when that time comes, a lot of people will be changing their tune. "I always knew he'd fuck people over, I just didn't think I'd be one of them!"
"Gödel told Morgenstern about the flaw in the constitution, which, he said, would allow the United States to legally become a fascist state." [1] Unfortunately Morgenstern never completely specified what this flaw was. As pointed out in the wikipedia article speculation is that "The loophole is that Article V's procedures can be applied to Article V itself. It can therefore be altered in a "downward" direction, making it easier to alter the article again in the future." But given how difficult it is to amend the constitution it doesn't seem like the problem lies there.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_Loophole
Interestingly after 50 years and 2.5 coups, the kind of people they pushed out are the ones running the country for the past 20 years and they're stronger than ever. I take it as a signal that the problem wasn't specific individuals and parties, but they were merely symptoms of deeper problems with the Turkish people.
Maybe it's the same for US as well.
Also, it was their job to keep Congress safe, and there are a lot of people that take their job and their honor seriously. Maybe they don't make the podcasts, but they are out there keeping our society safe.
That'd be a major change in the US.
Not that it couldn't happen, but military peers would feel some kind of way about their superiors who did that.
Pray for us in this hour of our stupidity. In truth, there have been many other hours of stupidity, but the suffering begins now.
Real. This bunch is going to tear the US apart, Vagabundo
Think something should be illegal? It's probably in there somewhere. Want to do it anyway? It's probably allowed somewhere else. Want to know if you can or can't do something? Well, good luck figuring that out. With enough time spent in lines talking to civil service workers you can get an answer that may be correct. Or maybe not. Probably best to hire a lawyer at hundreds of dollars an hour to tell you whether you can or not. (The lawyer will say "no", because if he says "yes" and is wrong, now he's in trouble, and nobody wants that.)
The system has grown and changed and mutated, and now it's a behemoth that nobody really understands. It's such a mess that people are genuinely hopeful that an AI will ride in and help us all untangle all that we humans did.
And the people that we've put in charge of doing all of this are collectively the most unaccountable folks ever. They routinely skirt, side-step, or ignore the rule of law as they see fit, and they still enjoy a 90%+ re-election rate and an incredibly high barrier to entry for reformers.
“And if I did, you deserved it.”
In the narcissist's prayer in your approved overthrow of our government.
And of course, the executive branch has everyone from the FBI on down, you're not going to win a shooting (or shoving) war with them.
https://bsky.app/profile/newsguy.bsky.social/post/3lhcadi7oy...
> If there are no consequences, the law is immaterial.
That is exactly what I mean by "growth in executive power".
Edit: DOJ Says Administration Doesnt Have to Follow Court Order Halting Funding Freeze - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42923302
So much for checks and balances I suppose.
Understatement of (this) century at least.
I'm in agreement. These people are softer than tissue paper. Where's the energy South Korean representatives had when their President declared martial law?
How long until Elon dismisses Trump? Let that sink in...
He will be cast aside and scapegoated in less than 6months.
He might end up in jail in 2-4 years.
Exactly this. And he doesn't even see it. There will be no "Elon dismisses Trump". Elon is not a natural born US citizen, Trump is. Trump wins, because if one has been paying attention, the people who put Trump in office don't like immigrants all that much.
The one thing even the richest can't avoid is time.
I'd bet on Musk as he has better connections among the Silicon Valley elite that are propping up this administration. Plus, the way that Trump is rubber-stamping everything Musk does as soon as he hears about it seems to suggest which one is actually in charge.
The MAGA mobs may only care about a few cherry picked bits from the Constitution, but the requirement of being a natural born citizen (usually meant as born on US soil with 2 US parents, but generally, either one is accepted) is definitely one of them. And he won't be getting meaningful support from anywhere along the other end of the scale anytime soon, so I left them out
You think the Trump administration is going to prosecute the wealthiest person on earth? Attention and wealth are the currencies of Trumpian politics, and I would be shocked to see Trump try to fight someone with such a massive ability to direct attention (via control over twitter and through having hundreds of billions of dollars).
[Citation Needed]. Seriously. Heck, even a cursory read of the Wikipedia article would tell you they are controlled by the Legislative branch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Capitol_Police
> The United States Capitol Police (USCP) is a federal law enforcement agency in the United States with nationwide jurisdiction charged with protecting the United States Congress within the District of Columbia and throughout the United States and its territories. It answers to the Capitol Police Board and is the only full-service federal law enforcement agency appointed by the legislative branch of the federal government of the United States.
Misinformation is infectious.
Capturing the courts is the first step in a fascist takeover. The Republican controlled legislature isn't going to send the sergeant at arms and arrest him.
There is nothing in the way now. "It could happen here."
Impeach. Subpoena. Then arrest if subpoena ignored. Pass laws (supermajority to bypass veto). Cut funding to executive office. Then go nuclear with things like amendment putting the armed forces under legislative control. Lots options. All require a united front.
So in other words "no options" because we will never have a unified front in the legislative branch.
Which requires Republicans to honor their oath to uphold the Constitution. So it's a non-starter.
What did Parliament do during the English Civil War?
Even a Democrat landslide in two years wouldn't change it, because almost all Democratic politicians are unwilling to cause a fuss (or they are secretly happy with what the other branches are doing).
But the people are getting what they voted for, so is it really ethical to intervene in that?
Knowing people in democratic politics, this isn’t true. The root of the problem is that they don’t understand or prioritize power.
They have overwhelming support for every major issue: abortion, gun control, corporate taxes, HNI taxes, healthcare, social security, climate, gay rights. All of them. And yet they lose. Minority on the Supreme Court, house, senate, presidency.
Think about Obama’s first presidency. Sixty senators. What happens if they:
1. Make DC a state. That’s two senators. I don’t think they could get Puerto Rico.
2. Make Election Day a federal holiday. That spikes turnout, which benefits democrats (see: advantage in every major issue.)
That’s the type of thinking that gives and maintains power. But they don’t think that way until it’s panic time and already over.
The problem is for a lot of these this only becomes apparent when pollsters remove all context and political baggage. For instance, ask people if they like Obamacare/ACA and results are mixed. But go down the line and ask about the constituent pieces of it all and you'll see positive support.
The Democrats have completely and utterly failed at packaging these things up with a message that resonates with the people. Instead they've allowed their opponents to demonize their stances. And that's how we wind up with people holding signs that say things like "Keep government out of Medicare"
The Repubs found an infinite money/PR glitch.
1) They create an issue at Fox. 2) Sell it breathlessly 3) congress person brings it up in the legislature, points to news reports as proof 4) pass a new bill, or stall another 5) Refer to these actions on Fox, showing it as proof. 6) go to the polls after creating the arena you want to fight in.
Add in the internet and the media advertising incentives, and you have escalating sensationalism and extremism.
Post watergate, the Republican strategists decided to win at all costs. There is no messaging that is “nice”, and if dems are aggressive they get penalized for it. Because many people didn’t believe this was true. It was too outlandish.
They need to come up with a solution that'll actually work. Instead they seem to keep punching themselves in the face.
Are we sure? Them keeping quiet while fascists run rampage gives me the feeling of "not saying anything means you're consenting". A gruesome analogy that doesn't fit, because it's the nation getting raped (or since it's Trump, do we want to call it sexual assault), and it seems the Dems were supposed to be another guardian of the nation...
But I hope someone smarter than I figures out a better path.
This is the other magic trick that happens in America that I can’t figure out fully.
I’ve had the chance to talk to people across stripes in America, including people with significant seniority. I’ve made this point in more refiner points for YEARS now, well before Trump.
It’s not a point that people like to acknowledge. Like here ! It’s a massive issue, one that deserves its own conversation, and it’s reduced to a “whining about it”.
Step up for gods sake.
Here! this is a simple way to move forward, this is how I started to resolve it - why does free speech matter? In layman’s terms, it matters because it’s in support of a market place of ideas. In that case is it ok if you have a market place which has a monopoly? What happens if it’s ok for say… junk food and cigarettes to be sold by the same people who certify it as healthy?
How do you address the issue of advertising incentives that drive part of the escalation in rhetoric.
What do you do to throw a spanner in the free money glitch? Here, and everywhere in the world that is learning to replicate this?
We’re originally meant to be on Hacker news. It’s become VC unicorn hopeful land. Asking these questions, and finding an interest in providing if it’s wrong, or right is part of the most basic flame wars we indulge in.
Creation is harder than destruction.
Obviously not, or they wouldn’t have lost.
From a purely power-based standpoint, Obama probably should have pushed more in 2008. But that’s the only time he could have done it - even passing ACA got the Democrats severely punished in the 2010 Congressional elections.
That doesn't follow. It would be true if everyone voted on a correct and comprehensive understanding of the issues and where candidates actually stood on issues, but a massive proportion of the population just votes on vibes and is completely ignorant of actual policies or issues. Trump is objectively more responsible for the overturning of Roe v Wade than any other person, but ask a swing voter and it's pretty likely they won't know how Trump has anything to do with Roe v Wade and think he's pretty tolerant of abortion.
People don't vote on actual policy. They vote on vibes and other heuristics.
I'm in that camp, I'm extremely tolerant of abortion but the Supreme Court overturning Roe v. Wade was good jurisprudence. Probably not well advised, if they're going to burn political capital there are more important issues.
Climate change might not even be a major issue any more, people are cooling to it.
[0] https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2024/09/09/issues-and-t...
Also, think game-theoretically (or practically). If you don't dedicate at least some effort to gain and retain power, you will be displaced by those who do. The first priority of a pilot is to stay in the air, the second is flying in the right direction.
The dems spent this last election cycle distancing, downplaying, and reversing each of these issues. Is it any wonder why they are losing? Rather than play to their strengths and party positions they endlessly and relentlessly try and shift right.
Do dems actually support abortion rights? Kamala didn't really campaign on that. How about gun control? Kamala was all too happy to talk about how she's a proud gun owner.
The Kamala/Biden campaign took painstaking measures to try and quash every single one of these issues rather than centering it in the discussion. Instead, they wasted an entire campaign talking about how much Liz Cheney loves them.
Even now, Schumer is saying "let's just sit back and let people watch what's happening" rather than pressing his advantage and Jeffries is saying "It's not great, but God is in control".
Dems desperately hate their base. That's why they lose. They simply transparent in the fact that the only thing that matters is corporate campaign contributions.
On the contrary, abortion was one of the main issues the Democrats campaigned on. I live in California, and while I didn’t get presidential campaign ads for obvious reasons, down ballot Democrats campaigned hard on a pro-choice message, despite the fact that California is about the last place where pro-choice is under threat. (Gun control a little less, but I still saw it sometimes.)
The issue is that Democrats successfully passed a lot of pro-choice ballot measures in 2022 after Dobbs. In 2024 they couldn’t use this issue much, since the states with heavy abortion restrictions after 2022 are much less sympathetic to the pro-choice cause, particularly because Democrat party messaging has moved a long way from “safe, legal, and rare”. Also, Trump distanced himself from the pro-life cause during the 2024 election, even removing the strongest pro-life language from the Republican party platform.
Without the pro-choice vote that delivered the midterms, and combined with the general incompetence of the Kamala campaign, Democrats really had little to offer, especially since they’re associated with unpopular policies like DEI, open borders, trans advocacy, inflation, etc.
Unfortunately, they then moved on when there is a lot that the federal government (the FDA, for example) can still do to effectively limit access.
And state constitutions can’t override a federal ban that’s supported by a Supreme Court that upholds it.
On the contrary, they very much want to “control” guns out of existence. But they know during election season they have to tone down the rhetoric in the hopes that people forget everything they’ve said about guns during the last three years.
1. Most US media (especially radio) being conservative allowed Republicans to define Democrats in their terms. Consequently, the "Democrats are all trans rights and DEI" was a Republican choice.
2. The Democrats certainly didn't make it hard for (1) to happen.
I'm no Trump fan, but losing to Trump required some serious efforts :-(
But the public dissemination of these positions is very conservative media driven.
Counterfactual: if progressive media had been as dominant as conservative media is, everyone would have spent the last 4 years hearing about government infrastructure spending and Project 2025.
In reality, you instead heard a relentless drumbeat of easily attackable Democratic positions, with nary a peep about Republican extremes.
So, yes, Democrat fault for having those positions in the first place. But the de facto situation is mostly created by conservative-dominated media being able to repeatedly broadcast those to an uninformed public.
This may not occur to you, you assume other people are like yourself. That they work in an office and perform a similar job as your own. Given that scenario, if the turnout of Democrats is lower than you expect, the only reasonable conclusion is that some bosses are less reasonable than your own, and ducking out for 40 minutes to go vote at 2pm just isn't allowed! And therefor if it was a federal holiday, their office jobs would just call it off for that whole day, they'd vote, and the Republicans would never win an election ever again.
However, the people who would vote for Democrats don't have such jobs. The jobs they have are menial, they are working all hours of the day and night, someone has to cover that shift on election day, and if somehow one or another of them does have an office job, there's no guarantee that it will be a paid holiday at that employer. My own employer ignores several federal holidays and instead gives us off days for Easter (Good Friday) and some other Christian holidays.
Your political opponents would hoof it through a warzone to cast their ballot. Having to vote early (or late, or apply for a mail-in) isn't why your numbers are down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_purpose_of_a_system_is_wha...
the Dem leadership has done nothing substantial about their supposedly spotlight issues for 50 years.
there is a reason for this
"51" senators (when at least two aren't even democrats and one routinely votes against the party for his literal coal lobbyist cronies) isn't Power.
The one time Democrats held some power for about FIFTY DAYS, we got the ACA. We could have gotten medicare for all but a "Democratic" senator refused. Medicare for all has been on and off the Democrat platform since before RFK got got.
That so many "liberals" and "leftists" insist the democratic party hasn't done anything despite fifty years of being explicitly voted away from the reigns of power is part of the problem.
Go look at the coalition FDR had if you want to know what it takes to push Progressive policy in the US system.
No electoral mandate (and the argument for a clear mandate for all of this is thin or nonexistent) makes unconstitutional/illegal action suddenly legal or constitutional.
Whether anyone with the relevant power chooses to punish these violations, is a different matter. The choice since January 2020 has been to repeatedly do nothing in the face of illegal action, but winning elections doesn't make criminal action magically non-criminal.
Playing devil's advocate - but the people asked for this, right? Isn't it time to amend the constitution then?
The will of people is the ultimate judge, isn't it?
There's a process for amending the constitution. If they want to amend the constitution, follow the process. Even if they only follow it once to change the constitutional requirements and reduce the threshold going forward.
We are (theoretically) a nation that is governed by laws, with equal protection for all under those laws. This creates stability and predictability, which encourages commerce and development.
When you go all Calvinball with government, you destroy that stability and predictability, and investment drops.
This is the predictable outcome of the last 50 years of US politics, of the subversion of the rule of law and decency. The southern strategy, the 1994 Newt Gingrich legislative session, the failure of the supreme court to allow recounts in Bush V Gore, the teaparty, september 11th. All of it has only served to entrench and reward conservative opposition to the rule of law.
I used to think that people really just weren’t paying attention to the sort of precedents they’re setting when they do certain things. But the older I get, the more I’m convinced that it’s intentional. Take the dreaded “filibuster” that supposedly prevents congress from anything (except apparently banning Tik Tok). The filibuster in general, and its current form specifically are entirely products of congresses own rules. At any time, congress can decide by simple majority to change the rules of their proceedings and they could do anything from requiring that you actually get on the floor and speak instead of just declaring “filibuster” like some Magic: the Gathering spell. Or they could reduce the vote requirements to override a filibuster. Or they could abolish the thing completely and declare all their laws pass with a simple majority vote. So there must be some reason why they don’t do this, why it’s not the number one agenda item the moment the Democrats get any major it in congress. And the only logical conclusion is the current state of affairs benefits the congressional reps and that’s more important to them than the overall functioning of the system.
No, not by sufficient margin.
Even assuming every state would decide this direct question the same way as they did the Presidency this past election, a Constitutional amendment requires ratification by 38 states.
> The will of people is the ultimate judge, isn't it?
Ultimately it has to be, but not always in the moment. The bar to Constitutional amendment is high for a reason.
Honest question: would the margin have been sufficient if the outcome was reversed? Would you be understanding of their position if Republicans had the same feelings and ideas of resistance if roles were reversed?
On the grounds that I'm, y'know, human I will grant that I'd probably find myself filling in the details of where exactly the constitutional lines are drawn somewhat differently in line with my policy preferences, but the question wasn't whether this is within bounds of the Constitution, but whether we ought to (morally) consider the Constitution amended anyway because of the electoral victory. My answer to that will always be no - both because of the numbers and also because the election conflates a bunch of questions where ratification asks just the one question directly.
I don't really envision a Democratic administration making a similar illegal and unconstitutional flurry of bullshit, but if they did, I would absolutely call them out on it.
So this discussion is pretty confusing to me, because the Trump administration objectively does not have the level of support you seem to think they do. Are you saying the incoming administration should get a little amendment as a treat? Are you just not aware of the procedure? Where’s the disconnect here?
But they can’t, because that support doesn’t exist. You’re starting from the presupposition that this is “the people’s will”, but voter turnout was less than 2/3 and Trump only won a plurality of that. That’s not to say that he didn’t win, but you’re talking about whether we should amend the Constitution to satisfy less than a third of eligible voters.
> Playing devil's advocate - but the people asked for this, right? Isn't it time to amend the constitution then?
> The will of people is the ultimate judge, isn't it?
2. 49.8% of the popular vote is enough to elect an executive, but not enough to overturn the constitution, which places clear limits on the power of that executive. The more radical the change, the larger the consensus that it requires. In order for the executive to legally receive this power, you need a supermajority of states.
But in a world where the courts and the cops are on your side, nothing needs to be legal anymore.
Yes, but - if you want to review your arguments, it might be still useful.
> But in a world where the courts and the cops are on your side, nothing needs to be legal anymore.
Maybe not legal - but effective it could be. As a recent example, Syria changed the people at power disregarding laws - cops and courts weren't enough to prevent it.
There US state is also far more internally secure than the Syrian state ever was.
There are still laws. But you make a case for "might is right"
Frankly we haven't had any real rule of law for a long time, and that's finally filtered through to the general populace. The law has been selectively enforced for decades (the famous "three felonies a day"). Of course the people don't respect the law any more, why would they?
I think that’s extremely debatable. Last I checked “unauthorized access to confidential taxpayer information” was not an election topic.
This is true on all sides of course, folks who voted for Obama didn’t vote for drone strikes against US citizens either. Winning a presidential election does not mean four years of dictatorship and silencing of criticism.
Power Wars by Charlie Savage covers this rhetorical zig zag.
Whether most of the people doing so were smart enough to understand it is a good question, but the fact is we put a Perón-like figure into office, and only age will likely make him leave.
Gee, I'm shocked, shocked, that a guy who stole large numbers of classified documents on his way out the door and stuffed them in unused bathrooms in his house(s) would fail to safeguard confidential taxpayer information.
You're right, it wasn't an election topic. Nobody who had any power cared to make it one, nobody who cared had the power... and nobody else was paying attention.
Obama didn't run on drone strikes, but everything Trump is doing has been a part of the Trumpist or Republican fringe platform for years. The Republicans have wanted to defund and destroy government ever since Grover Norquist said he wanted government to be small enough to drown in a bathtub. Purging academia of DEI and "woke," aggressive anti-immigration policies, tariffs, rule through executive order, none of it is new, all of it is established, boilerplate Trump-era Republican doctrine.
Trump ran on "draining the swamp." This is what "draining the swamp" means.
The only real exception to the norm seems to be Trump's sudden hard-on for invading Greenland and Canada.But even then you can look back at his infamous comments on not wanting immigration from "shithole countries" like Haiti versus places like Norway, or his comments on Mexico sending rapists over the border, and see how he might want to forcibly annex a few million white people to balance out the scales of white replacement or whatever racist paranoid shit goes on in his head.
I don't know. But let's please stop pretending no one who voted for Trump knew who he was or what he was about, or that what's happening now is not in effect what many Trump supporters wanted.
Did people vote for this? I thought people were voting on the price of eggs. Trump dishonestly disavowed the Heritage Foundation's Project 2025 ghostbuster containment system of horrible policies when people started becoming aware of the horrors that were in there. Sure, Trump is releasing those demons on us now, but a lot of voters claimed to believe Trump's dishonest disavowals.
Trump wouldn't have won if he had been honest about what he would do. Voters didn't choose *this*.
For all the fetishization of the constitution popular media has led me to believe Americans engage in, when push comes to shove it doesn’t seem to be worth the paper it’s written on.
If they do not disperse the money as directed by Congress to specific causes by the end of the fiscal year then there is a problem, but not until September 30th
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/COMPS-1071/uslm/COMPS-10...
That means that the President can’t wipe it out as an independent agency unilaterally. He could go to the members of his party in the legislature and ask them to create a bill rechartering the agency but then it would get public debate and they’d have to own what they’re doing, so he took the path of daring anyone to enforce the law. It’s like hot-wiring your buddy’s car because you don’t want to ask if you can borrow it, except that it’s disrupting millions of lives.
However, disagreeing about the interpretation of the constitution when it is not actually that "plainly" clear, it has been supported by precedent is not the same as ignoring the constitution. In fact, it sets up a challenge for the Court to decide and it will almost certainly find in favor of this kind of citizenship.
Many presidents, including Obama, have put forth orders and supported legislation that was ultimately found to be unconstitutional; it does not mean they were running a monarchy or whatever the left is implying.
Besides all of that, there is the danger that if Democrats try to play the 14th card against him, Trump will declare the immigrants enemy combatants. At which point they are no longer under the jurisdiction of the United States at all, and he can do more than simply deport them. The left has been out-maneuvered at every step here, it's unlikely that this is the point at which they start winning.
The text of the 14th amendment follows:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
For better or for worse, the amendment does not make any exceptions for denying citizenship to persons born of late term pregnant women who just arrived on the shores.
Marking lawful citizens as enemy combatants for simply being born in the US sounds like a very bad idea to me, and should be to you too. Why would I not be a potential enemy combatant for making this comment on hacker news right now?
"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" could easily be read to exclude those who are born to people present unlawfully and/or in violation of their visa. I think it's pretty plausible that the Supreme Court might overturn Wong Kim Ark.
> Marking lawful citizens as enemy combatants for simply being born in the US sounds like a very bad idea to me, and should be to you too. Why would I not be a potential enemy combatant for making this comment on hacker news right now?
Welcome to how it's always been for anyone who didn't have citizenship. The "enemy combatant" concept is some tinpot dictator bullshit, but at this point it's been well established in the US and supported by both sides of the aisle, the Dems wouldn't have a leg to stand on in campaigning against it. Talking about applying it to "lawful citizens" is purely circular logic - Trump will take the position that they aren't and were never lawful citizens.
Indeed, one of the Senators (Cowan) against the amendment feared millions of invaders who settle as trespassers leading to a loss of control over immigration due to the amendment.
It is simply impossible to read the debate and argue that Congress' understanding of the amendment didn't include exactly the group people today are trying to exclude.
https://www.justfacts.com/document/1866_birthright_citizensh...
A criminal is very much "subject to the jurisdiction of" the US, far more so than an illegal immigrant who if caught will likely not be imprisoned or even tried, but simply deported.
> It is simply impossible to read the debate and argue that Congress' understanding of the amendment didn't include exactly the group people today are trying to exclude.
What Congress believed at the time is not binding on today's courts if they don't want it to be, as the history of interpretation of many other parts of the constitution shows.
Deported using......jurisdiction?
You think if they do some big crime the US is going to ignore it and do nothing but give a referral because oops no jurisdiction?
This argument doesn't work.
If you were being reasonable, you might realize that short of those crimes deserving the death penalty, our country is better off just deporting. I don't want to spend $50,000/year (and up) on sequestering someone from our population, when deportation accomplishes that same result. Just make sure the deportation is successful. Send them with a crate of evidence for local prosecutors (who, in theory, should want to prosecute them... unless they really were sending them here to destablize our country with sabotage and rape).
This would remain true for me, even if it had no impact on citizenship of their children.
No, just deported. When the Navy shoots at Somali pirates they don't worry about jurisdiction. The left has been at pains to point out that illegal entry is not a crime and border patrol is not law enforcement, but that cuts both ways.
> You think if they do some big crime the US is going to ignore it and do nothing but give a referral because oops no jurisdiction?
If they do a medium-sized crime the US ignores it and just deports them, that much happens all the time already, no-one wants more people in prison.
If they do a big enough crime then I'm sure the US would find some way to charge them, but that's no different from what they do for full-on foreigners who never come anywhere near the US. E.g. if they kill a US citizen on US soil then the US would claim jurisdiction on that basis, even if the perpetrator stayed on the other side of the border the whole time.
> Mr. Cowan: I am really desirous to have a legal definition of “citizenship of the United States.” What does it mean? ... Is the child of the Chinese immigrant in California a citizen? Is the child of a Gypsy born in Pennsylvania a citizen? ... If the mere fact of being born in the country confers that right, then they will have it; and I think it will be mischievous. ...
> Mr. Conness: If my friend from Pennsylvania, who professes to know all about Gypsies and little about Chinese, knew as much of the Chinese and their habits as he professes to do of the Gypsies ... he would not be alarmed in our behalf because of the operation of the [proposed amendment] ... so far as it involves the Chinese and us. The proposition before us ... relates simply in that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens.
It is very hard to look at the debates and argue it was just done for ex-slaves and has no other effect given they very clearly debate the effect.
But that's not true. Only their offspring gains US citizenship, not them.
But I suspect that isn't the limit anti-14th-amendment people's ambitions.
It is extremely common in the Americas though. I think only Colombia and a few island countries don't have birthright citizenship here. I think it is a good concept for us, the US has historically been a nation of immigrants and our country has a culture that is shaped (and IMO strengthened) by people from all over the world.
It means that even if your citizenship never gets worked out, your descendants will be handled.
Having it so extreme as to be "anyone born on the soil (except diplomat kids)" is a novelty. Not necessarily a bad one, but also not obviously what the 14th was attempting.
> It'd be interesting to find out why people think moving the USAID organization under the Secretary of State is unconstitutional.
If there are no existing laws to prevent this, then it probably is legal. Given the voluminous laws in existence, I would not be surprised if there was one out there which is relevant.
> If they do not disperse the money as directed by Congress to specific causes by the end of the fiscal year then there is a problem, but not until September 30th
While this might be a "strict letter of the law" kind of thing (again IANAL), violating the spirit of a law is still illegal. Disbursement schedules are a real thing, with real-world impact when they are not adhered to, and can cause very real problems.
I remember you pushing this idea (that the independence of independent executive agencies are unconstitutional, or unaccountable, or similar) heavily in a thread a couple days ago. Where is it coming from? AFAIK virtually everyone on both sides has agreed that the independence of these agencies was a Really Good Thing for the last hundred years.
Given that, they've operated on a consensus model for so long, it's hard to say that the current admin is doing something illegal by changing (as long as the money is spent by end of fiscal year, due to impoundment laws). This may be a "constitutional crisis" in the parliamentary sense, but hardly in the American sense.
>virtually everyone on both sides has agreed
This is something I've talked about elsewhere, but the electorate that put Trump in office did it specifically in rejection of the Dem & GOP cooperation of the last several decades which led to the same things happening regardless of who was in charge.
From that perspective (and without saying anything about legality or wisdom, etc) Trump is doing exactly what the people who put him in office asked him to do.
So it's not like there isn't precedent for this, it's just that the consensus was as you said, the independent (some would say unelected) bureaucracy running things. But that was only ever a convention.
I don't think anyone's claiming that they're "unsavory" - just that they are creatures of the executive that were created by the executive and may be abolished by the executive as well.
And I don't think it's a new position either? The Ron Paul types have been complaining about them for literally decades.
I challenge you to find 1 in 30 Trump voters who could say what USAID stands for or its intended purpose or any of its effects on global politics.
So I dont know about "exactly"...
In some constitutional democracies there is a court that sits above the apex court, and they rule on constitutional matters only. I feel this is is an effective check/balance, as it makes the interpretation of the constitution completely unambiguous.
Some more recent constitutions have established a separate court that only rules on constitutional issues, but the US doesn't have that.
What does it even mean to say that the state department is by definition political? There are political appointees, but the overwhelming majority of the state department is career foreign service or career civil service, which are apolitical. The same is true for USAID.
None of what you're saying makes any sense or has any relation to reality.
Marco Rubio (head of the state department) stated that they refused to audited. So did other congressmen. https://x.com/cspan/status/1886473339201360210
Do you disagree with what he says in the above video? They denied to be audited. The US in USAID stands for United States. Can we not ask what they spend the money on?
USAID was not created by congress. It was created by executive order 10973 by JFK. It can be undone by executive order. It's function can be rolled into the state department.
Also, Congress codified it as an independent agency in 1998. So.. that last part isn't true either. This stuff isn't hard to look up.
This stuff isn't hard to look up, but feel free to send an explicit link explaining why they can spend money and never have to answer any questions about what they are spending it on. Some of the alleged things that they spent the money on are ridiculous (not going to repeat them here).
This same court invented prisidential immunity out of thin air. They invented "history and tradition" doctrine out of thin air (and then selectively applied it). They invented "major questsions" doctrine to allow them to act as all three branches whenever they want to.
There is absolutely no opposition to any of this. There are only the perpetrators and the controlled opposition who are 100% complicit with what's going on.
Nobody is coming to save you and certainly not the courts.
No one is stopping the people at the top of the US Government from doing what they want. In fact, there is a whole apparatus in place, at this point, to protect their ability to continue to operate unchecked.
Irrespective of whether our system of checks and balances is working (it isn’t) it’s still worth pointing out exactly what rules and norms are being broken.
At this point, who cares? The democrats in power have proven themselves wholly incapable of doing anything for many years now.
If the goal is reorganization then it could be argued that the president has the power to do so provided it still meets the requirements of the legislation passed by Congress.
If the goal is to simply delete the agency with no replacement and let the funding stop indefinitely, that is not so clearly within the president's power and has precedent against it.
That’s an absolutely absurd response. Even if your argument were correct (it isn’t) there is no executive order shutting down USAID. It isn’t “specious” to want actions like the shutting down of entire government agencies to be done legally.
Of course process matters.
That 1998 law does not permit the President to abolish it or name a different organization:
> Unless abolished pursuant to the reorganization plan submitted under section 6601 of this title, and except as provided in section 6562 of this title, there is within the Executive branch of Government the United States Agency for International Development as an entity described in section 104 of title 5.
- 22 U.S.C. §6563
Congress explicitly forbade downsizing of US AID without prior consultation.
> Sec. 7063. (a) Prior Consultation and Notification.--Funds appropriated ... may not be used to implement a reorganization, redesign, or other plan described in subsection (b) by ... the United States Agency for International Development ... without prior consultation ... with the appropriate congressional committees.
> (b) ... a reorganization, redesign, or other plan shall include any action to
> (1) expand, eliminate, consolidate, or downsize covered departments, agencies ...
> (2) expand, eliminate, consolidate, or downsize the United States official presence overseas ...
> (3) expand or reduce the size of the permanent Civil Service, Foreign Service, eligible family member, and locally employed staff workforce of the Department of State and USAID from the staffing levels previously justified to the Committees on Appropriations for fiscal year 2024.
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/2882...
The President is bound by law in that role, and most of thr federal civilian workforce is covered by civil service laws that govern hiring and firing, they are not at-will employees serving at the pleasure of the President? And those laws create a legal property interest which means that no one in government can fire them without due process, and that to do so is a violation of not only the statute itself but the 5th Amendment as well. This has been litigated fairly extensively, as one might expect given the size of the federal workforce and the inevitability of disputes over thr legitimacy of adverse workplace actions.
Who is making specious arguments? Your comment was about process, while omitting congress’s role in that process, and people are responding accordingly.
https://www.crisesnotes.com/elon-musk-wants-to-get-operation...
And can incite people against anything he chooses on X, like:
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1885964969335808217
and he can certainly act quicker than any checks and ballances. We'll see how the system works to get rid of the chaos monkey on the inside.
This is a problem for the left and for neo-cons; they flouted the constitution for so long, that now that someone else (Trump) is doing it to them, the left/neocons don't really have a base that responds well to cries of "Unconstitutional!".
The first amendment says congress can't abridge freedom of speech OR freedom of the press. So obviously you don't need one to exercise the other.
The second amendment has much worse wording.
This source apparently talks about it, https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-14359253/joni-ernst...
Occams razor would instead suggest that either a recession or some other form of social instability is not an externality but an objective.
It makes me scared for what the ultimate aim is, but I think at this point it's beyond giving him the benefit of the doubt.
15 of those days are national defense.
9 of those days are what Elon hopes to cut in half.
https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...
The deficit is a huge problem. I don't know how to fix it. But, what DOGE has done so far is exactly the opposite of what makes sense.
But, the demographic crisis means that moving forward our growth in entitlement spending for the growing population of seniors is far outpacing our growth in GDP from our slowing population of workers.
We can't tax or cut out way out of this. Elon's cuts are going to be performative at best. Real cuts would put tens of millions of seniors, vets and disabled people into destitution. Taxing the billionaires more would be nice. But, taxing them to zero would only paper over a few years of the problem.
The only way out I see is through massive investment to increase per-capita GDP long term. As a super duper liberal, I'm gung ho on "Bring manufacturing back!" in the form of
1. Re-prioritize trade schools and trade skills so we can actually perform high-skill work in factories if/when we build them. 2. Do everything we can to catch up with China making locally-built green energy tech dirt-cheap and highly effective. 3. Figure out how to incentivize the market to local build the interconnected web of advanced manufacturing capabilities needed to produce high tech goods fast and cheap.
I see the work of https://www.hadrian.co/ as an example of what I'm talking about. I'm starting to see some senators act like they need to stop talking about it and actually do something about it. But, the "best" I've heard from Trump is "Drill, baby. Drill!" and "Tariffs are magic."
If Trump laid out a plan for how to target tariffs surgically and use those proceeds to build up manufacturing, I'd be on board. But, he hasn't. Instead, he has made it clear his only plan is to create chaos, achieve performative concessions, and declare personal triumph while netting great harm for everyone in the end.
My point is that a lot of people seem to be in an "ends justify the means" mindset here where it's OK to rubber-stamp over laws, security, any sort of requirements for competence, or even basic understanding of what's being destroyed because in the end, this is chaos is going to have such a tremendous impact.
But, it's not. It mathematically can't. Even if it all turns out amazing it will be a small dent in the problem it's claiming to solve.
So, in the end, all of this is actually just chaos for sake of chaos. In the process, a whole lot of real people will be hurt in real ways. It's not bad at the same scale that "Turn off Medicare until we understand how it works" would be. But, it's nonsensically destructive in exactly the same way.
Exactly my point. This is (one of the reasons) why Trump is cutting these small programs. People would really flip out if he cut social programs for Americans
Turning off the entire flow of money is unnecessary, even counter-productive, to understanding how the money is flowing. Even if half of the money is waste, turning off the other half is causing tremendous real harm for no reason.
It is completely unnecessary and horrific to rubber stamp around national security protocol for something as incomprehensibly impactful as the federal payments system.
And, in the end, what are we going to get out of all of it? What I'm seeing out of Elon is propaganda about programs like "studying shrimp on treadmills" which was an microscopic piece of a very sensible study on marine safety and security. That's exactly the kind of work the government is supposed to be doing. But, if you frame it badly enough, you can destroy it for everyone and claim it as a victory.
I mostly agree with you, except I would add that the waste is causing real harm as well, as it could be better spent.
https://www.google.com/search?&q=trump+tax+cuts+defecit
it isn’t good when a group of people tries to destroy the entity that’s making those investments. These shitheads are basically corporate raiders coming in to tear things apart for personal gain.
Ironically, it is the “fiscally responsible”, “WhY nOt RuN gOvErNmEnT lIkE a BuSiNeSs” gang who want to destroy any fiscally responsible investment.
If they want to reduce spending meaningfully, they need to cut defense, social security, and Medicare. They won’t, because it’s political suicide.
https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/pete-buttigieg-did-not-sp...
The most charitable interpretation is 243 Chargers.
According to the AP[0] it's 214
[0] https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-electric-vehicle-charg...
It’s a decade long project, with phases and 50 different state governments doing the actual contracting. The Fed side is mostly funding and establishing the Tesla charger as the national standard - which required quite a bit of diplomacy to get all the car manufacturers onboard.
Jan 1942: Roosevelt authorizes the atomic bomb
Jul 1945 (55 months later): Trinity
Aug 1945 (56 months later): Little Boy
By comparison:
Nov 2021: IRA becomes law
Feb 2025 (40 months later): <250 charging points
But this would take 120 months to complete. What an interesting comparison.
Zero bombs in early 1945. What a waste of money!
They invented a novel weapon in half the time your heroes dreamed of building a charging station.
It's a plan to build tens of thousands of charging stations, by 2030.
In all 50 states, with the states and local administrations being responsible for contracting, permiting, buying land, utility work, etc. Most of the work is not on the Feds here.
It should not be at all surprising that 10k+ little building projects take some time to get going. Even from the folks who credulously believed the President could end the Ukraine war in 24 hours.
Oh hang on, I can do better. I have a plan to build 3 billion teleportation machines by 2045. This makes for a great mad libs set.
> There are currently 214 operational chargers in 12 states that have been funded through the law, with 24,800 projects underway across the country, according to the Federal Highway Administration.
I can see why you omitted the context.
Any "fact" it claims which is bad for it's case, you can believe with > 90% probability
Any "fact" it uses to support it's case should be taken with a tablespoon of sodium.
For example in this case: 24,800 projects underway. I assume if many were mostly built then they would say "10,000 chargers expected to be operational by March".
If they were under construction at all, they would probably say "under construction" This is a statement from the Federal Highway Administration! it's PR! (as it should be, nothing wrong with tooting your own horn) and the most they claim is "underway".
Of course we won't get an investigative story about this, but I'd wager the vast majority is in the earliest possible stage (before even permits to build)
So, the criticism of Buttigieg is well founded, and the "misinformation" is more directionally correct then the "fact check"
Hint: it's not China, the UK or any other foreign government.
It's us silly. We owe ourselves. :)
The only potential problem here is that "we owe ourselves" simplifies things given that some individuals are owed much more than others, i.e. there's inequality. Other than that? The whole debt charade is just political groups weaponizing (and perpetuating) the lack of fairly basic macro-economic understanding in the population.
Turns out that having a 100% guaranteed return is attractive to a lot of large-scale investors, even if the yields don't make the money machine go brrr.
This is one thing that worries me about the current administration. A lot of trust is built on the fact that the US gov't has never defaulted on a debt in its history. I feel like some people don't place enough weight into what that really means for both ourselves and the world.
That 100% return is guaranteed by the whip that the government so willingly cracks over the backs of productive young people. Why would it be in the interest of the non-entitled to have a government which keeps swinging that whip? To guarantee the investments of the elderly who only have bottomless hate towards the young?
Being rich in a first world countries is very neat, even great. Being rich in a third world country is like thirteen levels above that. For you and for your family.
People like to bring up places like Argentina and Venezuela, but their debts weren't denominated in their own currencies, so they had to collect dollars in order to repay debts in dollars. As a currency issuer, since we create dollars, we can never run out of them. Nor do we have to round up dollars and take them back from currency holders before we can repay a debt. Doing so just takes those dollars away from the non-government so that the issuer can zero out a ledger somewhere. The interest is interest we choose to pay, for some reason. The only way we could default on our debt is if we decide to. The only way to "pay off" the "debt" is to take all the dollars away from the non-government, which is _us_.
> The interest is interest we choose to pay, for some reason.
Perhaps this is the best point to talk about, because the precise way in which it's untrue is very concrete. The US government doesn't choose how much interest it feels like paying; it sells securities which promise a specific payout schedule according to an auction-set interest rate. If investors want to buy at a high interest rate, there's no mechanism for the government to demand they accept a lower one.
I think the popular misunderstanding is more harmful than some of the misunderstandings you point out (which some people may indeed have) because it leads to people pushing austerity because of their monetarist dogma.
Nobody ever asks who's going to pay for stuff when it's so-called "defense" spending. But if we want health care or education then it's all apoplectic "debt, hyperinflation, enslavement of future generations, where's the money going to come from!?"
Just look at Panama this very week. They were threatened to be invaded if they didn't give up economic deals with China and go back to being a servant colony of the US.
The odds of citizens cashing in and demanding all their money at once is pretty slim. The odds of countries that hold US debt doing it are better. But there's a strong deterrent for countries doing that. And it's the reality that the US has no issue with invading, and they've done it countless times this past century to the applause of the voters.
It's looking like this was at least larping as a 40+ billion dollar slush fund. There may have been some legitimate (useful) spending, and they will find out after auditing the system, but it also looks like there was lots of waste and once-removed (one degree of separation) self-dealing.
If the dollar falls further from being the global reserve currency (something which both administrations did their best to ensure it will happen) that will be an even worse blow.
That there are people in bubbles believing it's all fine, or they never been better, is also a contributing factor to all this.
The US maintains monopoly on this free money cheat through goodwill driven manufactured consent, diplomacy, financial bullying and military might. Each subsequent tool being more heavy handed & less preferred than the last. Heavy handed tools while effective, break more than they fix. This prudence sustains Pax Americana.
In 2025 America, good will is at an all-time-low. Mechanisms for classical diplomacy are being actively dismantled by Elon-Trump. Financial bullying is now the cudgel of choice. Pax Americana is under threat.
Post-WW2 peace is among mankind's most remarkable civilizational achievements. It isn't self-evident and it definitely isn't the historic norm. How long until nations start questioning the deal ? How many decades of work is being dismantled within days ?
May be hyperbole, but the locks on Chesterton-Pandora's box are being opened. It might work out, but Elon's aggressiveness seems so unnecessary at a time when the American economy is doing exceedingly well.
I don't know how anyone isn't.
In which parallel reality do you live? Some metrics:
- U.S. share of global GDP (nominal). 40% in 1960 to around 24% nowadays.
- Share of global exports from the peak of 17% in 1963, to around 8.5% today (China is 14%).
- Global R&D expending from the 1960 peak of 69% to 30% today with China closing the gap currently at 23%.
- Reserve currency status of the Dollar dropped from 71% to 59%.
- Share of outward Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) 47% in 1960 vs 22% in 2022.
Even the strongest selling point of the american economy of being the largest consumer economy is strongly dependent on high levels of consumer debt as well as the ability to sustain gigantic trade deficits based on the global appetite for the dollar and US bonds.
And then we have some other points of concern: In 1950, manufacturing represented 28% of GDP, while FIRE was 10%. Today, manufacturing is 10%, and FIRE is 20%. FIRE’s dominance reflects financialization — prioritizing short-term profit through financial engineering over productive, long-term investment. It encourages Rent-Seeking vs Productive Activity, for example, in Finance, much of the sector’s growth comes from fees, interest, and speculative trading (e.g., derivatives, high-frequency trading) rather than financing innovation or infrastructure. In Real Estate Rising prices often reflect speculation rather than new construction or improved living standards. This leads to inequality amplification, FIRE disproportionately benefits high-income earners (e.g., Wall Street, landlords). The top 1% owns 53% of stocks and 40% of real estate wealth (Fed data), which exacerbates wealth gaps without broadly improving household economic security. Real Estate alone now accounts for ~60% of corporate profits, something that create obvious systemic risks.
The US is still the richest and most powerful country in the world, but it is far from being as economically dominant as it was in the past, exactly the contrary of what you said.
I understand that after the gains we all had in the stock market in recent times, we might be tempted to consider this as a measure of the health of American Economy and considering market capitalizations, its global dominance. But that is a mistake. Stock Prices reflect investor sentiment, not fundamentals, they are driven by factors like speculation, liquidity and future expectations, not direct economic performance. Also, a handful of mega-cap companies dominate indexes, which introduces a lag that could mask broader economic issues. For example, the "Magnificent Seven" drove around 75% of the S&P 2023 gains, while small-cap stocks lagged. Also, tech and finance dominate markets, but they are not labor intensive, and thus they can't contribute as much to employment. Also, as the top 10% of the households own almost 90% of stocks, rising markets enrich the wealthy but don't reflect wage growth or living standards.
Also, a lot of the stock market exhuberance has been driven by things like stock buybacks, inflating share prices at the expense of investment and wages.
Rather than make any specific point, I'd recommend acoup's detailed post about the US's overwhelming dominance across a huge swath of areas:
https://acoup.blog/2022/07/08/collections-is-the-united-stat...
I think he makes a good case there, even if you are right and by some measurements the US did better in the past.
The US watched the rest of the world burn itself down during WW1 (partially) and during WW2 (almost completely).
There were basically 0 industrialized countries doing better in 1945 than they were in 1928.
The US reached those insane peaks because of a total aberration. It was never going to last.
China and India, for example, have been between 1/3 and 1/2 of the world economy for multiple millennia.
After the Age of Discovery Europe as a whole took over at least 1/3 itself.
The US would do well to adjust to this new reality, but I guess the temptation to make America great again is too strong.
Sleep deprivation, stress and overwork, controlling the lives of participants, targeting at risk populations, etc. are cult programming techniques.
So you're saying they hired a bunch of undistinguished Berkeley drop-outs just because they're libertarians? A sort of affirmative action for libertarians?
It's always projection with these guys.
That may be true if you look at the US in isolation, they're much richer now compared to 1950, but they've never had a strong a contender as China is right now. The Soviets were matching them militarily back in the Cold War years but they were never close to surpass them economically, like China is now in the process of doing.
Where do you base that on? China’s GDP is huge. It overtook the whole EU’s GDP.
Whether that fear is justified is a totally different topic
Why not compare the Allies with the Axis next? The US was segregated, right, so... hey, same difference! /s
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...
A surprising number of people don't seem to know the first thing about China. Hey, it might not help that China doesn't allow a fifth of the world to learn the history of China.
But let's talk again in four years. The way things are going in America, I may agree with you guys by then :(
USA has also rescued hundreds of millions of people (including China!) from bloody conquerers, as in WW II.
(it's not like the US is innocent; we have made a huge number of terrible mistakes attempting to maintain the Pax Americana. I fully acknowledge while being fairly sure that China could and would do far, far worse than the US)
Also, China did try it only a few decades ago. Murder, starvation, horrific torture, reeducation camps, brainwashed children denouncing their parents... impressively evil. Not that Tiananmen Square or Uyghur ethnic cleansing or kidnappings of expat dissidents are so much better.
For sure this country has its own flawed history with slavery and treatment of Native Americans, but China is absolutely on its own level with Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.
And there's nothing the US can do. Cutting government spending and starting trade wars with neighbours is not going to stop it. Building up a totalitarian state with deep government influence into businesses is not going to work and will be actively resisted, since Big Government is so against the principles of the current regime's voters - and China has been working on this for decades now. Free market won't work either, as it's already very free in the US itself - but the aggression of US companies in their sales practices, tax dodging, and privacy violations have caused their foreign customers like Europe to raise the defenses.
TL;DR, while I can see how totalitarianism can in theory create a strong economy, it isn't going to fly / work in the US.
Inflation was because of pandemic and wars. Rest is absolute nonsense.
Instead, The biggest oil pipeline in the US was shutdown on day one and increased regulations led to our current situation with inflation.
The democrats are also war mongers and want to have perpetual wars to line their pockets.
It's telling when there isn't one negative story about Biden/the democrats (especially when we found out they were colluding with big tech to suppress the speech of average citizens) in 4 years, and we immedialy get slop hit piece articles about Trump and Musk.
Judging from his last term, at some point Trump is likely to get tired of Musk, kick him out of the administration, declare he always thought Musk was a bad guy, and pretend like he never listened to him. If Musk tries to stay in after that, it could be a coup.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup
For a recent example see the events in South Korea with President Yoon.
It’s certainly debatable, but shutting down agencies created and authorized by Congress and refusing to distribute funding legislated by Congress seems to be an overstep of executive power, and therefore an undermining of Congress’s power.
My main point was that ousting an incumbent or defying an election is not a requirement for something to be a coup, as the previous comment was suggesting. A legitimately elected official seizing more power than they are legally entitled to is a form of coup.
It's been less clear to me whether federal agencies are obligated to spend money that congress has authorized.
> A sudden appropriation of leadership or power; a takeover.
Yes, it's well-known for taking leadership, but any kind of appropriation of power like this is a coup.
Until Congress grows a spine and starts legislating again, the executive will continue to run rampant.
Republican's STATED OBJECTIVE for decades has been obstructionism, entirely so they can go on the news and say "Look how ineffective the government is". Go look at how debates happened on the floor of congress 40 years ago. Go look at the AMOUNT of work done by a functioning congress. Compare it to how little republicans have done in congress since.
Then go ask republican voters and they will tell you that they explicitly prefer a congress that does nothing.
They want a king.
Democracy becomes non democracy by illegal acta, typically.
He can't just delegate power to an unelected civilian like this.
To invoke Godwin's law, Hitler was democratically elected, Austria democratically voted to join the Reich, the people of the UK voted in favor of leaving Europe. Just because it doesn't technically meet your definition of a coup, doesn't mean it's a hostile takeover of the country's government and systems. But if you'd rather argue semantics that's fine too. If this keeps up, the US government will shut down by March and people will die - or, more will, as there's a link between the plane crashes and the Trump admin's cutting down on already understaffed air control staff.
He was legally placed in the role by the democratically available processes in place after his party won significant seats in several elections.
If you have an informed reference that helped you achieve such clarity, I'm very interested. Unfortunately, my armchair has a broken leg, so I'm unable to use it at the moment. And, search engines are completely failing me.
most lawyers aren't constitutional scholars either. do you really think an expertise in personal injury law in Rhode Island makes one more qualified to recognize that an unelected billionaire shutting down organizations without any Congressional approval or appointment is illegal?
So congress, for example, cannot delegate making laws to some other entity. The courts, for example, cannot give their judicial power to others.
Similarly, the president can't delegate significant executive authority to others.
Where are the limits of this?
It's usually about delegating significant amounts of power or functions that the constitution explicit calls out as being owned.
But the limits are not tested often, so not tons of cases.
In the case of agencies, the executive branch also has no power in the first place to either set up, or disband, agencies. This is a power that congress owns. They can't, per above, delegate it, even if they wanted to.
I asked ChatGPT and it said many other agencies were established by EOs (e.g. FEMA, NSA, NASA, EPA). Quote from ChatGPT: "Many agencies later received congressional authorization, but their initial formation or restructuring was often directed by executive orders." So it seems like the last paragraph is incorrect.
If you mean "any organized entity that contains federal employees", by that definition, sure lots of "agencies" exist that are created by the different branches.
If you mean "something that can create binding regulations that interpret or implement law" - no, those have to be authorized by congress in some fashion. Even if they are run by the executive later, which is also somewhat muddy.
etc
Traditionally, they agencies are the things that have officers who are nominated by the president and approved by the senate, and have useful power as a result :)
I'll also point out - even the ones that are entirely created by other branches (executive, judicial) have to be funded by congress one way or the other.
This includes all the ones you listed.
They cannot legally spend money otherwise - ""no money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by law".
Sometimes they are created with a small, more general emergency appropriation or something, but again, if they want to spend money, that also requires them to be authorized and appropriated by congress.
Some of the more interesting questions that we have thankfully never had to answer for real (outside of blustering) is around various branches using their power to deliberately interfere with the basic functioning of other branches (except as authorized by the constitution, which, for example, says congress can set the jurisdiction of courts except for the supreme court. Where we've come close to it has mostly been around appropriations designed to force another branch to do or not do a certain thing. We may come a lot closer the next few years depending on what happens.
The constitutional limit is easy (none of them is more powerful than the other, and may not interfere with the basic sovereignty of each other), but the lines are not.
So the thing about appropriations is - they actually have to spend them unless it says something else.
It's not like a budget. It's an order to spend money a certain way. That's why generally congress is said to have the power of the purse - they give the directions on how money is spent.
So appropriations come with directions, time frames, etc.
The executive branch must spend them as directed, and they must be applied to the specific purpose as directed.
This is also why you will sometimes find federal agencies or the military spending infinite money towards the end of the fiscal year, because they are just making sure they spent all the money they were supposed to. Again, sometimes the appropriation says "spend up to", etc. But whatever it says, they have to do it.
So if they say "you have to spend 1 billion on USAID", they must in fact, spend 1 billion on USAID.
Let's take the agencies that are specifically authorized or created by congress out of the picture - they literally can't disband these (and i don't believe they've tried yet). These are usually the things created or later authorized by bills that say something like "their shall be an office of the xyz" or something similar.
So for example, CPFB is here: https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=(title:12%20section:...
(I just picked a random one, the establishment language is fairly standard, the rest i have no opinion on :P)
Given it is created and provided for by law, it must be disbanded in the same manner - legislation that removes it.
So if we are sticking to the other ones - it basically comes down to whether an appropriations bill allows it in some fashion.
Does it say "1 billion must be spent on USAID" or does it say "1 billion must be spent on giving aid to ukraine" or does it say ....
That is what in practice, enables or prevents an EO from disbanding an agency that is not specifically provided for by congress.
At least, as far as money/etc goes. There may be other reasons they can or can't disband an agency.
For example, Congress has a congressional research service that provides it with information. It is basic to the functioning of congress (or just slightly above basic). Whether established by law or not, it's unlikely to be constitutional for the executive to disband an agency that another branch depends on, since they are supposed to be coequal branches. This has rarely, if ever, been tested in practice though.
Even when different branches have hated each other with a passion in the past, the degree to which they would test the limits of constitutional power while pissing on each other was fairly restrained.
There are a few exceptions, but they are definitely the exception and not the rule.
Also keep in mind - while the president has some special powers, the general purpose of the executive branch is simple - to faithfully execute the laws. The only discretion in even doing that comes from the laws themselves and the constitution's description of the executive's discretion.
EO's (no matter who makes them) were not intended to be a path for the executive to do whatever it wants, and use power not granted to the executive
I say this not offering a view on the legality or not or wisdom or not, just trying to make sure i answer your question completely.
But this is standard practice, no? The US system is rather unusual compared to Parliamentary systems in that Congress delegates precisely this power to the executive all the time.
A great example of that are with various toxins and pollutants, there's no system in which we can go through the whole process of making a new law every time we discover that some miracle chemical is giving people giga-cancer. Instead Congress tasks an agency full of experts to decide what safe levels of the giga-cancer causing chemical is and makes sure we only ingest slightly below the LD50 of that so we can statistically live.
And then there's also plenty of cases where the constitution is just ignored without consequence. The CDC unilaterally announced payments to landlords were suspended during COVID, something it had no power to do. It didn't cause much of a fuss.
The CDC case seems to make the opposite point: they took a broad interpretation of the public health act, and it was rejected in the courts as exceeding what Congress had intended:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/05/us/politics/eviction-mora...
The CDC has pretty vast powers in a public health emergency and IMO the ability to forcibly quarantine people is a power far beyond the ability to pause evictions and is maybe even a necessary part of the former. (Can't really quarantine someone if their landlord can just throw them out right?)
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/esta...
The President can hire him and Congress could direct him to do what he’s doing, but that step has been skipped.
That’s why this is massively illegal
Trump's delegated Musk as a Special Government Operative and signed executive orders granting him and all his recommended employees security clearances w/o the requisite background checks that normally would be required.
So they are acting within the government, they are employees, and they've been granted special waivers by Trump to do all this craziness.
I think its going to come down more to the courts looking at whether these 'newly appointed employees' are breaking all kinds of laws passed by congress.
Critics at the time warned this Act would give the president too much power.
The only way we prevent the worst case scenario is to stand up to authoritarian power.
Keep shining the light on these bad actors. Let's send them home.
Trump is not king. Musk has no authority. DOGE is a hacker crew without a legal mandate.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Department_of_Government_Effic...
It's not a legal Department.
Trump's team is claiming that anything computerized falls under USDS purview, hence the parasitic hijacking of the US Digital Service.
1. USAID Employees Have Legal Employment Protections
USAID employees—both civil servants and Foreign Service officers—are protected by federal employment laws. A presidential aide cannot simply tell them to stop working without a legal order, such as an official reorganization approved by Congress or a government shutdown following a funding lapse.
Under Title 5 of the U.S. Code, federal employees cannot be arbitrarily removed or prevented from performing their duties. The Anti-Deficiency Act (31 U.S.C. § 1341) prohibits government officials from unilaterally stopping agency operations without congressional authorization.
2. Locking USAID Buildings Would Violate Security & Property Laws
Physically locking the doors to prevent USAID employees from entering their offices would likely violate:
18 U.S.C. § 371 (Conspiracy to defraud the U.S. Government) if it were done to obstruct lawful government operations. 18 U.S.C. § 1361 (Willful injury of government property) if it involved unlawful restriction of access to a federal facility. Federal Continuity Directives require that government agencies maintain essential functions even in emergencies.
3. Presidential Authority Has Limits
The President does not have unilateral authority to suspend an entire federal agency’s operations without following proper legal processes.
Only Congress can permanently dissolve an agency like USAID by repealing its statutory mandate.
Even if a president wanted to reorganize or defund USAID, they would need to work through legal channels—such as submitting a restructuring plan to Congress.
What Could Happen If Someone Tried This?
If an aide illegally ordered staffers to stop working and locked the doors, several things could happen:
Congressional & Legal Challenges – USAID officials or Congress could sue, arguing the action was unlawful. Federal Court Intervention – A court could issue an injunction blocking the order.
Potential Criminal Charges – Any official involved in obstructing a federal agency’s work could face legal consequences.
Historical Precedents
Trump’s 2018-2019 Government Shutdown: While federal agencies, including USAID, were partially shut down due to funding lapses, career employees were still required to follow proper procedures.
Nixon’s Attempt to Defund Agencies: President Nixon tried to defund programs by impounding funds, but Congress passed the Congressional Budget and Impoundment Control Act of 1974, limiting executive control over funding.
Bottom Line
Simply ordering USAID employees to stop working and locking the doors would be blatantly illegal and would likely lead to immediate legal challenges, congressional intervention, and possible criminal liability for those involved.
It's only matter of time until one of these clowns starts "accidentally" touching data like the 2020 census individual response data.
To me, that's the red line: If they can touch that and suffer no consequence, then there is no law or process can exist to ensure accountability of the government.
https://www.census.gov/about/history/bureau-history/agency-h...
https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/how-...
Are you suggesting the rule of law doesn't apply anymore? If so, why are you bothering to read Hacker News? Run!
But of course, that’s exactly what would be oligarchs want.
Elon is the definition of Dunning-Kruger. He seems smart (maybe) when he's talking about something you know nothing about but as soon as he talks about something you do know about, the illusion quickly shatters. Many here learned this after the Twitter takeover when he started talking about software and technical infrastructure.
The only thing going on here is some performative cuts to mollify the base and make some headlines. The real goal here is looting the public purse for the (further) benefit of the ultra-wealthy.
Welcome to the kleptocracy.
Who do you consider to be the founding fathers? Franklin was 70 in 1776. Washington was 44. Adams was 40. Jefferson was 36.
Also, you consider Aaron Burr one of America's greatest leaders? He literally committed treason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burr_conspiracy
In any case, viewing Burr as one of the "greatest leaders" of America is absurdly out of step with historical consensus.
All of them were at some point in their lives, but generally not when they were “America’s greatest leaders”.
(And none of the guys in your first linked X post were in charge of the revolution, even remotely, in 1776—Hamilton, for instance, was doing some of the heroics as a young captain that got him noticed and on the fast track that ended up in top leadership positions, but that's a far cry from being a top leader.)
Haha what? https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/signers-factsheet.
https://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/PPPSH@WEO/EU/CHN/USA
In not too long, China's GDP will eclipse ours and their cooperative foreign policy as opposed to our full spectrum dominance policy will yield major benefits. Dedollarization is proceeding apace, and it accelerates with each sanction and aggressive and arbitrary move by the US. Other countries used to have no choice, but now choices are opening up. The end of dollar dominance ends the most powerful tool of U.S. hegemony and turns us into a mere great power, not the lord of the world.
https://www.jpmorgan.com/insights/global-research/currencies...
Trump's policy is about corruption yes, but also likely about wringing more efficiency out of American industry by reducing worker protections and reducing middle management positions. They are trying different methods to juice growth. I don't think it will work for very long.
- https://freebeacon.com/national-security/panama-wont-renew-b...
- https://ground.news/article/panama-pledges-to-exit-chinas-be...
The US tried tariffs during Japan's rise as an automobile powerhouse. Look where that's left the American auto industry.
Sanctions have their place as a carrot and stick mechanism. But Trump offers no carrots. Only stick.
You can bet your ass he still voted for Trump. "I don't even like the guy" he insists.
The farmers that voted for Trump in droves in 2016 got FUCKED by his tariffs and retaliation from China. Trump had to sign off billions of dollars to offset their losses. They still voted for him in droves. Vibes don't care about the very clear data on the spreadsheet.
A huge portion of my state's lobster industry goes to China, because there literally is not a big enough market here in the states. Selling to China took the industry from barely staying afloat and selling lobster for cheaper than beef half the time, to being a healthy industry that didn't have to worry about oversupply. They will be fucked if China notices. They still voted for Trump.
All these people have FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE with how much Trump hurts our economy. They don't care. "immigrants" or some bullshit. Funny, the guys up north growing potatoes sure love the immigrants come harvest time, especially when they were paid under the table. Of course, these dumbasses in NORTHERN MAINE insist on flying confederate flags to honor their "heritage". They are from NORTHERN MAINE, their heritage is: Being harassed and assaulted by the KKK for daring to be catholic, freezing to death in ice storms, being mistaken for Canadians, and murdering the hell out of confederate slavers for the glory of the Union
They're outright racists is what I'm saying. My brother has bitched and moaned about "affirmative action" for decades. The horror that a black person might be somewhere they don't "deserve" is their only concern. It's funny to blame anything on affirmative action when you come from a town with single digit black people, and without affirmative action in the past, you would be just like the rest of the white trash.
These politicians who do not provide results and are just confidently talking nonsense still get voted. By the people.
People are indeed just tribal unga bunga monkes which learned to walk, talk and do stupid shit. Some more than others.
Yes, the US is the biggest economy. This doesn’t mean its ability to pay liabilities is infinite. Every amount of income has a particular amount of debt and interest that it is able to pay.
Take the largest company. It would not be able to service infinite debt. Apple could not service $5 trillion in debt, just like the US could not service 300 trillion.
I get why some people are concerned about the US’s liabilities and its global police status.
Also stopping giving many other countries billions of dollars a year after might be drastic. But I see why some people may not like this. Individuals can give to charities instead if this is really such a problem for them.
Now cutting research and other things is really dumb. Glad they reversed that quickly. Also needlessly licking fights with our neighbors is also really dumb.
Now only if we can reduce our military spending as well.
now look at the deficits.
It’d be a problem if we had to pay it all off tomorrow, but we don’t.
have a look at this: https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/interest-payments...
it is like borrowing at higher rate than the rate at which are are growing our income.
You can argue whether the chosen approach is right, but no matter what, a drastically different course is needed as 'business as usual' is a sure way to disaster.
I for one hope the US get their act together at home rather than dragging the world into WWIII.
Now, the problem is - what to do about how badly informed you and millions of Americans are. That you cheer for the destruction of valuable and painfully built state capacity for completely spurious reasons. It’s almost funny, except for all the innocent people who get hurt along the way.
As I see it that debt counter is compounding fast, and with BRICS gaining steam your abilities to keep shoving it onto the rest of the planet are diminishing.
I can’t even begin to tell you how far the US is from hyperinflation or any major debt issues - the only real risk the US faces is internal stupidity (I don’t only mean the current situation, idiocies like the ongoing debt ceiling nonsense apply too).
Look, prudence is not a bad thing, and it’s worthwhile to have sensible management. But talk of hyperinflation is either severe mis-calibration of risks, deep misunderstanding of how economies work, or intentional propaganda.
If the US has a problem, it'll look like some fairly substantial hit (eg, external forces closing their current account deficit) and a longish period of being economically weakened due to a lack of investment in productive capital. Maybe some riots since the pain will probably not be spread evenly.
It is a catastrophe, but mainly a catastrophe of opportunity costs. We've had a counterfactual running in China over the last 20 years of what could have been happening in the US economy if they hadn't mucked up their overall strategy (particularly energy policy and banking regulation) so badly. Plus there is an impression forming that they are actually a lot weaker militarily than had been assumed to date, I wouldn't put money on Taiwan's long term independence right now. The US doesn't have the funds to handle all the military problems if overseas nations stop picking up the tab.
What do you think is more likely, that you’re an economic genius and you can see an impending crisis that 50 years worth of economists couldn’t, and that somehow that crisis is going to happen in the next few years? Or maybe you don’t actually understand how macro economics works and have been manipulated into thinking this way by your inherent dislike of government spending?
They did already and are planning to again add trillions to our deficit. Go look at it, it's laid out very clearly.
There is no good faith here, these actions are a plundering of the state.
Why is USAID needed most in times when the US is very "economically dominant"?
Look at how that turned out for Bismark's Germany after he was gone. His successors were high on their own supply, and in pursuit of short-term wins, destroyed the careful network of relationships and alliances that he curated.
Beijing is, no doubt, finding this entire folly amusing.
Is that why you made that statement in the context of everything that was built on that hard power being demolished?
The world should read "less carrot, more stick" from the Trump admin.
USAID also has a fairly sketchy record in funding regime change efforts, so countries cooperate with it on a purely transactional basis, "trust" is zero.
there where two major wars during that time which mattered for the formation of germany, (the franco prussian war and the austro-prussian war, which was an extent of the politicals about who should form the german state).
I was asking specifically about how US economic dominance is a factor. Why is USAID more important when US economic dominance is high.
In general, it's also better to have friends in the world rather than going around being loud-mouthed jerks that no one likes.
It's also a tiny amount of the budget.
I was specifically wondering about that particular part of the comment by the original poster, it just seems quite interesting to me what the connection there is.
Non crazy conspiratorial source for these huge allegations?
I might be able to find you a Fox News link if that would be more to your liking.
If these programs are so small, why aren’t they going after the real grift? It’s too hard? Why the small, more relevant to citizens programs get cut first?
Because its easy to avoid the military spending and the black box that represents.
First, these are symbolic, it is very hard to concretely argue that these programs are good for Americans, since even proponents of these programs say it's about "soft power". Corollary to this is that cutting something like social security is seen as cutting benefits to Americans (ditto with Defense)
Second, these programs are seen as funding "professional democrats" in a way that social security or defense are not. So this is also about cutting out their opponents support structures.
If these programs are so small, why do you care so much?
Because they help starving children?
> First, these are symbolic
Are we talking about how USAID worked against apartheid in South Africa now?
The people who put Trump in office want the US Gov to focus on American children
That's not remotely universally true, but that's also not what you asked about
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=trump+t...
343,025 first time users in the last 30 minutes, with GSA Advantage, USPS Tracking Results, NIST, CEAC Visa Status Check, and Federal Student Aid being some of the biggest sources. Had no idea this was available.
[1] https://github.com/18F
[2] https://analytics.usa.gov/
According to that tweet they were apparently “far left” because they also worked on Direct File, which sought to cut out the middleman (TurboTax et al.) and let Americans file taxes directly. Regardless of where you stand on the political spectrum, unless you're in bed with Intuit, this seems pretty hard to argue against!
Removing consumer protection would be something hard to argue against too, but yet, here we are: https://news.bloomberglaw.com/banking-law/bessent-pauses-cfp...
"Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent has shut down a wide variety of operations inside the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau in his new role as acting director."
Nothing of this makes sense in that all these actions don't seem to make life easier or better for citizens in particular or the world in general.
Source?
I'm only finding a Guardian article about Congressional Republicans planning a CRA action [1].
[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/feb/03/republicans-...
A major difference between the US and EU is what the TikTok nonsense proved: the US is happy for a US company, aligned to Trump's authority, to track, influence and commodify its users at will; whereas the EU doesn't want any company to have that power regardless of location.
But in case anyone thinks this is a dunk on the EU: this is still not as invasive as the US law enforcement's powers of warrantless surveillance which have repeatedly blown up the EU-US frameworks for data sharing (Privacy Shield and its other iterations, which Mr Schrems seems to have personally made a sport of shooting down faster than they get implemented). It's also not entirely contradictory as the focus here is on protecting the rights of people against corporations while still providing means for the state to violate those rights when necessary (similarly to how the state can violate your right to free movement through incarceration or your right to bodily autonomy by shooting you, neither of which seem to upset the people who'd think this one is a gotcha).
Considering the EU's main function is being a transnational economic region (if you ignore all the fluff about shared values and history and instead follow the definition of "a system's function is what it does"), it's absolutely true that the EU is remarkably restrictive on what corporations can do compared to the US - even before Trump.
EDIT: The two sibling comments prove my point: while EU member states have been pushing for legislation like providing backdoors to encrypted communication, this is neither unique to the EU nor a contradiction and the US already has far wider reaching measures in place.
Consider for example the Switzerland-based CIA and BND (Germany) shell company that distributed backdoored encryption to hostile nations which Germany backed out of when the CIA defended distributing the same technology to friendlies without informing them or their intelligence agencies. Or literally any of the Snowden leaks, which described not only mass surveillance of US citizens but also espionage against US allies (infamously including wiretapping then-chancellor Angela Merkel's mobile phone) to a degree none of the EU member states have ever done anything comparable to - and which those mostly didn't act on because of the importance of maintaining good terms with the US. Or the post-9/11 legislation which not only allowed warrantless surveillance with gag orders (which is why "canaries" became popular in cryptography communities) but even literally killing or abducting and indefinitely incarcerating US citizens without a trial - not to mention torture.
You can criticize the EU for state overreach. You can't do so by using the US for grounds of moral superiority - not even moral equivalence. You can argue about different attitudes to free speech, gun ownership or the right to self-defense (e.g. castle doctrine), sure. All of these are valid grounds for debate. But the US government can (according to its own jurisdiction) legally do so many more things to both its own citizens and non-citizens both within and outside its borders that trying to use it for a libertarian "win" against the EU seems farcical at best.
It's an ongoing war.
Europol + most major euro police forces + a number of european deputees want to have access to backdoors to spy on citizens, other european deputees do not. The battle is here.
I mean that feels right. But, they have more money than they can spend. They can make their lives better by stopping being so greedy... it's not about better.
It's greed. It's the number on their total net worth, or some other bullshit number.
It's exactly like Musk paying others to play games to get him the best apparent player character. He pays others to earn money to make him look, to himself, like the best fascist-capitalist oligarch, or whatever he's going for.
In reality, their lust for boosting some vanity metric is most closely aligned with "make life worse for the poor". Because whilst they do pay some top employees well, the whole pyramid sits on the exploitation of many millions more poor people who, through their greed, the capitalists push down further into the bloody, stinking, fetid soup below.
Oh, and the capitalists rape the planet too... just to make sure no lining thing escapes the accretion zone of their self-destructive insecurity.
They're on the same side
When it launched, employees were told that we'd soon be able to receive a portion of our salaries in Libra. Every practical feature of the system was effectively a Facebook bank account where the unit of currency was tied to a basket of major currencies. The rest was smoke and mirrors.
So yeah, Zuck feigning surprise about being dragged in front of CFPB was just an act (like most of what he does in public).
LOL, crypto-company scrip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_scrip) coupled with a touch of pump (and possibly dump).
Oh, ok.
Hopefully it's obvious at this point: Musk and friends not there to do anything but enrich themselves, and destroy.
I suspect 18F would have been adopted by USDS, if it had been less overtly partisan in its hiring practices.
People with that kind of wealth have transcended humanity. Not towards greatness but towards total indifference.
18F might also be "far-left" cause it was created by Obama folks. I also wonder if it is also bad in his mind cause conflicts with taken over Digital Service.
>Obama folks
Obama was not in any way "far left"
Though of course, that is by modern standards quite a conservative right position to take. (And incidentally not one I’d consider reasonable to take; though I’m obviously biased by being directly affected)
I am begging people on the left to stop slandering "we will enforce the law" as a right-wing position. It is not, shouldn't be, and the right doesn't deserve to get credit for it.
Kamala wasn't "Trump-lite" any more than AOC is "Stalin-lite". The differences between the two are fucking categorical.
But it's not lying to point out that she was for that in 2019. The fact that the video was made into a campaign ad doesn't make it false.
Separately, your unprovoked personal attack on me is contrary to site policy.
Core leftism is about wealth distribution and unbounded solidarity. Being only pro-LGBTQ imo does not make you a leftist and yet, look around in this thread, what is brought up to proove left leaning tendencies.
The labeling/propaganda unfortunately worked and we devolve into tribal identity politics. Thats why some people think we just passed a far-left decade.
The same would apply to the right too, except that the right tends to shut down agencies, not create them.
The big hubbub on X was about the Slack bot that recommends inclusive language. https://github.com/18F/charlie/blob/main/CHANGELOG.inclusion...
There is a hit piece article not worth linking that calls out some of the devs who worked there. The comment section of that page is very hateful. As an American it’s shameful to see that level of hate for anything to do with policies of inclusiveness.
The company looks like they hire regular people of all types. A few of the adults are trans or identify as queer and they are acknowledged as equal coworkers. Fairly representative of the tech industry I’d say. What is so bad about that? They seem to write some excellent code and have a good company culture akin to a lot of SV tech companies.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/19/us/alabama-senate-roy-jon...
That's just plain stupid. Taxes are already annoying enough.
In New Zealand the government makes it really really simple to pay your taxes (automated tax returns for the majority). You can call our tax department on the phone and they answer and they are helpful and they don't seem to screw you. The idea is to make it simple for people and businesses to pay their taxes so that they pay. The IRD is run like a smart business.
It's not taxes that are the problem per se it's fuckwits like Boris Johnson's cronies that think taxes are theirs to garnish and use any chance, even a global pandemic, to steal every dime they can lay their hands on.
No, but paying an exorbitant amount, but seeing few things being improved around you, but endless wars funded and cronies getting richer, and useless bureucracy enlarged and making your life or business more difficult, is.
Or it would be happening absent the recent chaos.
You need to be (a) able to walk and drive, (b) in driving distance to a post office and (c) able to work around the post office's opening hours and (d) willing to waste the time to drive/line up etc.
Or you can spend less than a minute to upload a photo of your passport.
Bit of a stretch to call them a low cost outsourcer. They seem pretty legitimate.
And given the frosty working relationship between federal and state agencies I am sympathetic to the idea that a private company would be able to deliver a better solution.
Is that $1.8B of revenue? Of profit? $1.8B of total funding in the last six months? In the last ten years?
Here’s $100M of funding for a 6% stake, four years ago:
https://siliconangle.com/2021/03/22/digital-identity-network...
Last year: a liquidity event for early investors and employees, none of which helps the ongoing business but instead lets the founders and C-suite buy a private island / holiday home / mobile home / home:
https://thepaypers.com/digital-identity-security-online-frau...
A $275M loan — not an investment, though you get a good deal if they default! — to keep them afloat?:
https://www.investing.com/news/stock-market-news/idme-secure...
The only rung deeper into the hype pit would be valuing them as a unicorn based on a too-big-to-fail government bailout.
A loan is a form of debt, which is one of the two main forms of capital - the other main one being equity. Debt is less expensive than equity, so companies prefer to issue to raise capital via debt than equity.
Montenegro.
The biggest mistake the dems can make is to come in and do clean up. This would be paying the bills of the abusive member in a relationship.
It’s a statement on the fact that the children are being held hostage, and that this is how the pattern will be made to continue.
You have to decide whether you are ok with this pattern continuing. If it’s possible to do it without harming the children, then that is what must be done.
If it’s better to let this pattern continue, then thats also an ok choice. But at least the costs must be articulated and accepted. People can know what role they are playing in this relationship; the tradeoffs they found unacceptable.
The Democratic Party is the conservative one.
It still might happen that there won't be any further elections in which anyone but trumpists can actually win.
He doesn't.
This is the same guy that nearly tanked PayPal because he was obsessed with rewriting their entire system for Windows.
His PR makes him sound like a founder but he was not.
I’m sure individual usage will vary, but I would call him a cofounder.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.com_(bank)
I've been named co-founder once but as soon as its usefulness ran out it got removed from the website (nothing else changed).
Edit; needed to be response to parent, sorry.
Assuming you meant X.com (formerly known as Twitter) - in no universe is there a Twitter cofounded by Musk.
It seems almost like corruption.
Of course, right now it seems even the existing amendments are not safe. Our government is a non-functioning, dishonest imperial oligarchy, and we just keep paying our tithing out of fear, telling ourselves it's all going to schools and highways.
In Sweden we have gotten a paper from the tax office saying "we believe your taxes should be like this" and then you can change parts you disagree with (and risk punishment if you are wrong).
Direct file seems great.
In the US, when we elected mediocre actor Ronald Reagan, I think. His trickle-down economics nonsense turned out to be a just and early example of catering to the rich in broad daylight instead of behind closed doors. And the people, for the most part, bought it, so now we have legal scams like 401ks that the average citizen thinks are there to help them.
The point has always been to seize control of the money while removing all accountability and they are finally succeeding because liberals handed them the election over Gaza, which is no longer in even in our news cycle.
It all makes my stomach turn, to be honest.
If you are politically motivated to minimize the tax burden, it makes sense to be skeptical of direct filing (even if you are not bribed by Intuit).
I don’t know if there is any quid pro quo but that’s why we have ethics laws because otherwise you have to constantly ask whether something is good for the country or just the guy making the decision.
The reasons are unimportant. The important thing is that you trust Uncle Don and Uncle Elon, our grand leaders, who always have your best interests at heart.
> In December, however, Kelly and 28 House Republican colleagues wrote to President-elect Donald Trump to ask him to end the program: “We write to urge you to take immediate action, including but not limited to a day-one executive order, to end the Internal Revenue Service’s (IRS) unauthorized and wasteful Direct File pilot program. The program’s creation and ongoing expansion pose a threat to taxpayers’ freedom from government overreach, and its rollout and structural flaws have already come at a steep price.”
So even taken charitably I think they are wrong. But I do believe it is simply just corrupt and malicious.
A tweet about IRS Direct File, a group that replicates the basic automatic taxation program of other advanced economies?
Over a fear that the Government would take over deciding what taxes people pay, despite a fact that such a program doesn’t necessarily block you from manually filing your own taxes (don’t know if the American implementation has that, but the UK one certainly allows you to override PAYE).
Yes HN commenters, this is the genius behind Government reform.
EDIT: Jesus Christ someone is going to convince him FedNow is a conspiracy and kill another basic system other countries have easily managed.
The circle of Elon, Thiel, Andersson, etc conceptually orbit Balaji. Balaji, The Network State author, explicitly advocates for a techno-libertarian exit because they perceive the US and especially "team blue" as getting in the way and slowing down their vision.
They share a belief that "change from within"[democracy] is impossible and that "exiting" is the only other option. This extends to governance models where people are encouraged to vote for their governance by packing up and moving (digitally and/or physically) rather than attempting change from within.
I also didn't make any claims which groups should exist, solely based on the name of the group.
You're the one who made an argument along those lines. Not me. As if, a group named for efficiency couldn't possibly be inefficient. Or, that 2 groups working for efficiency would somehow be automatically better than 1 group.
But what is the goal? Maybe what goal to they think they're pursuing? This is hacker news, so I'm asking for an answer without political rhetoric.
The entire stock market is premised on the stability of the US government. Without it all their wealth would disappear overnight. All the luxuries they love would cease being produced. They wouldn't be able to fly their private jets anywhere.
In the past the rich could stockpile easily-tradable goods like gold in order to maintain a luxurious life even if their government collapsed. When it comes to billionaires that's not possible. The logistics of keeping and moving that much physical currency/gold/etc don't work out in their favor.
If they keep this up they're going to lose almost all of their wealth as the world destabilizes. They're also setting themselves and their families up to be assassination targets for the rest of their lives (far, far beyond what they are already). There's people everywhere that will be severely impacted by their actions. There will be nowhere for them to go because the US really is the pillar of the world's economies.
All they need is a way to send messages to their "useful idiot" new college grad minions.
True, instigating a global collapse might eventually get to them, but AFAICT, they just want to personally profit from US dysfunction. Plus, it seems like the rest of the world will simply bypass the US and say "you're not dependable any more, so we're just gonna pretend you don't exist". Ostracism (of the US) seems more likely than the entire world destabilizing.
History sure does have an uncanny way of rhyming if not actually repeating.
Something that greatly galls me is that the livelihood of tens of millions of families depend on the whims of people who think only in terms of profit. Government is not supposed to make a damned profit! The government's primary role should be to care for everyone, from entrepreneurs to people with disabilities. I'm not saying "handouts for all", I'm saying that the government needs to provide stability, a level foundation for all to build upon.
It's like Venkman in Ghostbusters, in the ballroom: he yanks away the tablecloth sending everything flying except "the flowers are still standing!". The rich are the flowers, secure on their own foundation, calm with the knowledge that the guy pulling the tablecloth can't affect them. In other words, the new administration should be carefully enacting new policies not causing chaos by doing everything too quickly.
Unless their goal is to destroy the USA, in which case US citizens will need to decide what country they want to live in and whether republicans are capable of delivering that.
> Unless their goal is to destroy the USA
I have indeed heard this, even in his first term -- that people were so fed up of politics-as-usual, that they decided to "send a wrecking ball into the White House".
After having seen the damage that wrecking ball did the first time around... to send it back must mean that these folks really want to demolish the very ground they're standing on.
And thank you :)
My understanding from both reading a lot online and conversations with Americans in person is that a significant number of them would consider the above statement to be “socialism” which is something they’ve been taught to hate, no matter what.
I can’t say I understand it. To me, it’s the most basic raison d’etre for government. I’m not sure what the anti-socialism types in the USA think that the government’s purpose is
Sometimes they put their finger on the scale a bit, too. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot
The goal is to go after waste, fraud and abuse.
Why do you believe this? Because Elon Musk said so? Elon says a lot of outright false shit. So does Trump.
To him, government efficiency means that the government is out of the way and no longer interfering with his efficiency. Might as well just do away with it entirely.
For some people, that seems to be fine. They work at SpaceX and Tesla and his other companies. For many of us, life is the journey and the quality of it matters, not the Martian destination, and he can fuck right off.
Companies are not democracies, Musk says "get rid of the supercharger team" and no one gets a vote, they just get rid of them. We should all be worried about what goals he efficiently wants to achieve, if you or I were in the way, would he care.
The danger is in the unchecked nature of this power, even if someone likes Elon Musk and thinks he's a brilliant genius, what gives him the right to supplant the will of the people with his own.
Elon has shown time and again that he will prioritize what HE wants, and if that means some people don't have jobs, well that's just fine. If that means that people should have to sleep on the factory floor and wake up and make cars he can profit off of and then back to sleep on the factory floor, that's also just fine. If that means that USAID doesn't feed the hungry, that's also just fine.
And maybe to anyone reading this that's happy with what he's done, you are just fine with it too. But what happens when he decides something you do care about is alright to destroy too to meet his goals, he's just fine with it. What do you do then? How confident are you that your goals and his will stay aligned, forever, that the ax of "efficiency" won't come for you and yours someday. And if that day comes, what will you say to the people that tell you "he's a brilliant genius and he's fine with it so so am I"
Also trust is earned. Do I have to remind you of the hundreds or thousands of lies, many of them very recent, of these people?
Especially without oversight or any kind of accountability. Especially when he's flaunting federal law to do so.
Sometimes you need to get into good trouble, necessary trouble.
> then steer government contracts to themselves.
Provide proof.
How many engineers have walked into a legacy project and their first instinct is to rebuild? Of course this is sometimes warranted, but almost always costs way more than anyone expects and doesn’t necessarily lead to a better outcome.
Edit: I’ll also add that this mentality is more common in younger / junior folks, which fits the context here.
It is not exclusively found in young people, as one can plainly see with the plutocrats in charge today.
FWIW, even when it is justified in a software context, we understand that there will be a (usually large) business cost.
When implementing this in a political context, there's no way to skim over the fact that there will be a huge human cost. But here we are anyway.
[Political bias report: I'm a liberal who has read Rand and who does not agree with The Republican Party's views in the vast majority of cases. I have been listening to Musk and Ramaswamy talking about DOGE on X. I also follow conservative meme sites to keep up to date with the way they are thinking about things.]
But that's not what's happening.
It's clear to me their goal is to dismantle as many "leftist" agencies as possible, like environmental protection, labor rights protection, securities laws enforcement, humanitarian aid, etc., and replace them with people who will enrich their friends and families and allow corporations to run roughshod over the rights of regular people.
It is bizarre to me that anyone could lack the critical thinking skills such that they'd accept DOGE's stated goals at face value.
They assume, as rightfully a lot of us do, that this all happened under the watch of these same individuals, and that they're arguably biased (we can't assume they're non-partisan). The problem is that the government is in a state of auto-pilot, and that's what led us here because we're not paying attention. In order to get out of it, we need to try something different and get (arguably) impartial or fresh pairs of eyes on the problem.
That's frankly ridiculous. I'm glad Elon is doing what he's doing. It's time to cut through the BS and ship it.
Here's an idea, we let the voters decide. Oh right, they did.
But it’s absurd think that the representative government shouldn’t be involved in protecting citizens from companies.
Fact: most companies have only one incentive. To make more profit. Everything else is secondary. Companies have a very, very, very strong incentive to cut costs and hurt people if it helps their short-term bottom line. In fact, making more money is their only incentive. And there are thousands of examples of abuse, from tech getting shittier, to energy companies massively polluting certain regions, to poor safety records, to ballooning health care costs.
That’s a non-partisan fact — abuse from companies hurts everyone.
Your opinion is, apparently, that the free market and these companies themselves are better equipped to protect people. Even though there is absolutely ZERO incentive in capitalism for them to do anything that would protect people if it costs money and doesn’t help their bottom line.
As an analogy, what's happening feels like this:
* Somebody (let's call them "X") has embarked upon a mission to de-bloat the ancient-but-working family desktop PC. * X's first actions appear to be to desolder various things from the motherboard, while the computer is on. * Anyone who sees what X is doing, is somewhere on a spectrum between "scratching their head" <----> "wow, they're trying their best to destroy the PC".
To those defending this particular way of "fixing" things, would you yourself replace a large, working legacy software system in this manner?
Something I didn’t expect from this was to see the main complainers scramble to define what’s really important to them, thus implicitly justifying many of the cuts made.
Though if you do that with hardware, you might irreversibly break/short a component -- so you unplug, then figure out you actually needed that part, but plugging it back in now won't get the system working again.
I think "running a country" has more hardware-like characteristics than a pure software system.
You do not "do a thorough accounting" by deciding in advance what programs and operations to terminate based on specific ideological viewpoints. I don't doubt for a second that this is "the way they are thinking about things" – but it's hopelessly, irredeemably naive to think that's what's being done.
they don't care about fraud either. Both are fraudsters themselves, both will enrich themselves and their families. They both surround themselves with fraudsters.
What I give to Musk is that the staggering nepotism you see with Trump is not there as much.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-musk-usaid-c0c7799be0b2fa7c...
Does the Republican Party have any humans with brains left, or is it all slime molds now??
We don't have to pretend naivity.
https://www.state.gov/emergency-humanitarian-waiver-to-forei...
Hiring a bunch of guys who work at companies he or Thiel owns definitely counts as nepotism.
They might care about other things more than that though...
(I'm not saying that every dollar deployed by USAID succeeds in having a large impact on indirectly helping Americans. But the net effect is surely positive.)
Lets be clear, that is not the goal - that is what they say the goal is and reality shows it is not. The goal is grift and theft adn destruction. Properly naming things is going to continue to matter more and more. Because no matter your bias or perspective, repeating propaganda is an act of propaganda.
> Maybe what goal do they think they're pursuing?
and I was answering that to the best of my ability. I'm not just repeating propaganda, I'm distilling down the intent of the actors to the best of my understanding. No one can ever know someone's true intent, but I've done the best I can with the information I have.
It's fine if you don't want to do this, you're under no obligations here, but I just don't think "I've done the best I can with the information I have" is accurate.
For example multiple people here are making broad claims like Consumer Protections is completely shutting down, when all that’s been announced is a temporary freeze on operations as the new lead takes over (which happened in multiple agencies). Likewise the stated plan for USAID is to trim down foreign grants and merge the rest with the state department, so we don’t know what functions will continue there or if the Executive branch even has the authority to do that. Courts have already blocked last week’s freeze on federal grants and a few other things. The Mexican tariffs are already paused too and Canada probably isn’t far behind given the large risk to US markets and prices.
As dumb as plenty of this stuff is, it’s easier to get worked up and believe every dire headline you read than maintain a sober look at what tangible things have actually changed or can change that fast.
But, I think a lot of the thread is more informed by things that have already happened over much longer periods of time in the recent past than it is by the things that have happened in the last couple weeks. Specifically, there is a large amount of information available on the behavior of the current president during his last administration, and on the actions of the person behind the DOGE efforts.
Nobody is under any obligation to maintain a veil of ignorance about who these people have shown themselves to be. They have not earned any benefit of any doubt.
Almost the entire modern history of the US government (including his last term) showed that not much at all changes. And it definitely doesn’t change quickly. Even stuff like tax rates have barely had any meaningful change considering US tax revenue has only increased exponentially since the 1980s along with the GDP. On paper very little changes in gov when you look more than skin deep.
This might be a new precedent where politicians actually do what they say and work hard to change the government but I’m highly skeptical.
Sounds like a lot of noisy broad stroke announcements and highly reactive social media headlines that will turn out to be minor IRL outcomes or get smacked down in court.
The people currently arrogating unaccountable power, illegally, have given us no reason whatsoever to trust them to use it for the public good rather than their own enrichment.
And what has been the lasting tangible effects of his last administration? Was it the end of democracy and the rise of fascism the Left loves to get hysterical about? Nope. And it won't be the case in this administration either. We can check back in four years to see who's right.
I can't see how that is a good thing either, even if you are somehow credulous enough to believe their claims.
You literally are, though
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=1...
> I'm asking for an answer without political rhetoric
You need to start caring about politics real fast if you care at all.
From here in Canada it looks a lot like the fascist takeovers I’ve read about since middle school. The playbook is bizarrely tight to Hitler, Mussolini, hints of Stalin, etc. I didn’t expect this in my lifetime. Or rather, I imaged I’d see it coming sooner.
It’s worth adding here too that Musk’s own purported ambitions are entirely political. He has even gone so far as to claim he has given up on democracy. Ironically, he also claimed this election was crucial. DOGE is a politically motivated program.
This is all worthy of intense scrutiny and concern
Is there? I feel like there are many cases where this is not true. Supporting disenfranchised groups for one. If you are funding protection for a group of people you don't need to be funding their attackers as well to make it "fair", the funding of the disenfranchised groups is literally you putting your thumb on the scale to try and even things out.
"one side of the political spectrum" is pretty loaded and it can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. If we are talking about "funding democrats" then sure, that's not good but if we are talking about "funding women's health" then no, I'm not going to play "both sides" games. The sad thing is we live in a country where a large number of people think that "funding women's health" _is_ "serving only one side of the political spectrum".
I'm a bit confused because the stated goals, either the "digestible" ones or the ones they've stated outside of mainstream media, are all political in nature.
How could you get an answer about the motivation and goals of this behavior that isn't "political"?
Sadly, based on the comments here and elsewhere, HN is not immune to political rhetoric.
Watch the whole video (posted months ago predicting all these actions), but here is the relevant section: https://youtu.be/5RpPTRcz1no?t=1201
NYT interview: https://www.nytimes.com/video/podcasts/100000009910862/curti...
Gil Duran did a lot of the reporting on this. https://www.thenerdreich.com/the-network-state-coup-is-happe...
https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2008/11/patchwork-2...
It's fascinating that people still wonder what kind of goals they may be pursuing.
The President launched a meme coin 48 hours before being sworn in !!! Even crypto scammers were outraged at the audacity of the scam.
1. They think that the civil service has become not just openly hostile but outright dangerous to any form of Republican government, and therefore that taking direct control of the civil service infrastructure at high speed is essential to avoid being kneecapped by rogue federal employees again. They think that this happened during Trump's first term, and that if they don't get this problem under control then America has effectively become a Democrat dictatorship that does whatever the left wants regardless of who wins elections. They have a good reasons to believe this is a real problem they need to solve and fast, see Sherk for some egregious examples [1] but there are many more you could cite.
2. A genuine belief that the government is very inefficient and in particular that a lot of the waste is basically just funding the Democrats via various 'laundered' routes like allied NGOs that pretend to be politically neutral charities but aren't. Doing something about that is a good way to get libertarians like Musk and his allies on board. Everyone is in favour of government efficiency in principle so letting the libertarian types go cut waste is an easy way to build that coalition even if the other parts don't care about fiscal efficiency much itself.
These two are interlocked. Poor performance and efficiency improvements are one of the legal justifications for laying off civil servants, so it's much easier to get the civil service under control if #resistance results in being one of the ones "optimized out" of a job. That's doubly true if the sort of NGOs that would hire them if they were fired are being defunded simultaneously.
[1] https://americafirstpolicy.com/assets/uploads/files/Tales_fr...
LMAO. That's like going to Reddit and asking for relationship advice.
Second is the dismantling of the deep state. The deep state exists, but it's not a conscious effort in general. Instead, it's the typical aspects of institutional inertia, multiplied by the fact that the kinds of people wanting to work in government favor inertia more than in most private businesses. Of course the low level government bureaucrat at your local post office or whatever is going to want to slow-roll things and keep things from changing as much as possible; that's just the kind of person that typically looks for a government job and gets hired. Of course they're going to resist rapid changes from people that want things to be fixed yesterday. If your conception of the government is as an agent to execute orders, rather than as an agent to steadily administer regulations, then you're going to resent the people who don't respond instantly to the executive's desires
FWIW I voted for Kamela because I think that the process of governance is just as important as the governance itself, and did not want Trump to remove the existing processes in this way. I can definitely see why people would want to change processes, and given the historical ineffectual attempts at changed processes I can see why people would vote for someone who promised to tear it all down, but I don't think tearing it all down is the best option. Although, I didn't vote for Harris as much as I voted for the most effective way to prevent Trump, but given the American first-past-the-post voting system that was the best I could do. https://ncase.me/ballot/
Why does an alcoholic crash their car and ruin all their personal relationships?
Why does someone with impulse control problems make a self destructive statement?
Why does a tech billionaire who is clearly intoxicated by his own power and a cocktail of legal and illegal drugs behaving erratically?
The GAO doesn't even audit in the intuitive sense. They audit that spending is being recorded properly, and for many agencies even that low bar isn't met. In other words GAO is okay with you dumping money into a hole as long as you count how much.
DOGE is doing a practical audit of the spending. i.e. taking high-level spending principals from trump and identifying specific budget items to eliminate.
The fact that they're going for the payment system and not for contract/orders analysis is exactly the red flag people are and should be concerned about.
This is politics. All parties are presenting messaging that supports their goals.
DOGE's unique approach is to use the Treasury as the "chokepoint" for telemetry so they can cluster and classify all of the transactions .
Imagine a massive microservices platform with 10k services and you want to know which ones are viable ( cost/benefit). Rather than survey all 10k, you would surveil a router or LB chokepoint to measure the input & output of all 10k services. That seems to be their approach with the treasury.
Of course to do that would require actual coalition building, hard choices that upset voters, and congressional approval. Instead they'll going to disrupt some of the highest ROI small-money grants like food or medicine to impoverished countries because they don't have any representation.
It won't meaningfully reduce the deficit and means we we're signing up for warlords and global instability in the near future.
When I got hit by a car in Italy, a CAT scan was a standard part of the triage process. Then I went to the ortho in the US and she was flabbergasted - apparently the bar is much higher to get one here.
(EDIT: Nothing to do with medicare or fraudulent billing. Just pushing back on the "for fun" point. I can fall asleep in those things.)
Of course, to play devil's advocate, using an MRI because you have it might lead to acquiring more MRI machines because of the high usage of the existing ones, I guess.
One time, I got curious, and did some back-of-the-envelope math on how much they cost. In NYC, an MRI machine drew as much energy in 20 minutes, as my apartment did in a month.
Between electricity, keeping a superconductor cool, and personnel costs, it cost ~$100/hr in a medical facility, 20 years ago.
I found this page here with some info about costs: https://info.atlantisworldwide.com/blog/the-cost-of-an-mri-w...
Even though they name cost of operation, energy use, cost of spare parts, maintenance and repair as expenses for running an MRI. It looks to me like the biggest cost by far is going to be the acquisition and installation. So if you've invested in an MRI machine you probably want it to be in use as much as possible in order to recoup the cost of the machine.
Getting an MRI for body composition is like using industrial high precision equipment to measure the length of a hotdog
There's also an IT angle (relevant for HN!): medical systems don't always talk to each other. Which means that maybe the patient got an MRI last month, in a different health system... but I don't have access to it in my health system, so I order a redundant one.
https://prospect.org/economy/2025-01-27-we-found-the-2-trill...
Most of what's been discussed so far is culture war dog whistling which won't save any money- or just cutting entitlements and hang the consequences.
*Though of course actually doing so very quickly would cause a recession
Well, not without fascist criminality anyway.
I can free up a lot of budget by sacking the entire armed forces and selling the jets to Ukraine and Saudi Arabia. "freeing up a significant fraction of the budget" is not consequence free. If he forces the health insurance industry to reform and extract a sane profit margin above cost of service, he deserves a medal. If he wipes out USAID and stops his competitors being funded for battery car programmes he secured for himself in times past.. Less such.
"waste" is a very emotive term for government spending. Many economists laugh at the belief spending less money is net advantageous as a thing in itself: money makes the world go round. Sometimes you want it spent more than you want it saved.
I want to run the heater so my kids aren't cold but cant afford it. Meanwhile my mayor is using my tax dollars to buy 200 home depot sheds for 800k each from a donor.
Yes, the point is spending money, just by the people who earned it.
I do not believe paying less tax will fix the kind of cynical systematic corrupt behaviour of your mayor, and other tiers of government.
Fundamentally, the urge to eliminate taxes and reduce the size of the government is a vote of no confidence. Not just now,but permanently. It's not a vote for reform. I don't think the government leadership has my best interests at heart. I think it would happily take everything I have and leave me to starve in the street if it could.
A huge chunk of government spending is a horrendous waste/scam and you will likely never understand this unless you take the initiative to look at the spending breakdowns or actually spend a bit of time at a government contractor.
And for-profit companies have your best interest at heart? With government services you can at least optimize for goals other than profit.
The goal should be providing the service I want for the least tax dollars possible.
The government is horrendous at doing this. There is no performance or competitive incentive.
I don't need to be funding $50M worth of condoms to be sent to Gaza. That's a "them" problem, and while there might be second order effects to a population explosion there, I honestly don't care.
Thing is, I checked my twitter feed for the first time in a month, and was recommended Alex Jones, so I can predict how well DOGE is going to work out pretty accurately.
Though he absolutely, literally is. The executive branch taking control over finances is unconstitutional, and there are likely a bevy of other things involving laws for conflicts of interest and laws for security clearances.
The only question is what'll happen in response when the criminals control so much of the infrastructure.
As a bonus, Musk is currently breaking the First Amendment as well, as he is both wearing a government hat and actively censoring people discussing what he's doing.
Even if he does manage to find his $2T to cut (which I think is pretty unlikely), he will fail at the above metrics.
But sure, it would be cool to be proven wrong on that. I really hope I'm wrong. Otherwise he'll have hurt a ton of people (that he doesn't care about) and will have set the US back on the world stage decades. Not to mention... hello recession... or worse.
Freeing up money is not actually that hard. Doing it in a constructive way is a lot more difficult. I could go in and completely defund roads, airports, social security, public schools, the courts, the military, and save a ton of money.
Then what. What's the big plan? What are we going to do with all this money that will give us a better ROI?
That money was paying for stuff. Some stuff runs smoothly we enough that we take it for granted. Is everything perfect? No, but I'd like to see a little more care when screwing around with important infrastructure and services.
This reminds me of people that join a legacy software project and start proposing that you do a completely rewrite of the system without really understanding why certain decisions were made. It's almost always a total disaster and then someone else needs to come up and clean up after them.
But how would the words "it's not about the budget, but ideology" but refuted by budget cuts, anyway? I can give you candy in my van, and the candy can be real, but that still doesn't make it about the candy. And freeing up a significant fraction of the budget is hardly saying anything. You can save money by throwing people on the streets and letting them starve. You can make money by letting drug dealers go free and making them give the government a cut of the profits. Maybe not enough to offset the tax cuts to the super rich, or the costs incurred by just setting everything on fire to consolidate wealth for a few sociopaths, but probably "significant". So? That's supposed to be an argument for waving firing prosecutors for political reasons through?
The remaining 27% is split 50/50 between defense and everything else. Musk will not be given access to the DOD. The remaining half of discretionary includes things like transportation, R&D/science funding , education, NASA/SpaceX, climate/energy, etc… essentially a lot of high value investments for our future that slashing would be like shooting ourselves in the foot.
https://www.pgpf.org/federal-budget-guide/
Big rowdy protests on all matter of topics are fine. I actually used to work across from an embassy and they had huge street-closing protests every year. I'd walk straight through them to go grab a sandwich, I never felt unsafe.
This was something else. They stormed the fences, smashed windows, broke into the Capital building, they trashed the place, they beat the shit out of the cops. People died. DC Metro Police officers—let's be clear, they deal with real crime—described this as the most brutal hand to hand combat they'd ever experienced.
I'm not sure what you've heard about America. If you ever have a chance to visit DC, do it, it's a very cool city.
This does not happen here.
It was a protest that got out of hand. Those who committed violence deserved custodial sentences, but the rest who were mere trespassers never should have seen the inside of a jail cell.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/proud-boys-leader-sentenced-2...
"To prepare for the attack on the Capitol, Tarrio and the other leaders of the Ministry of Self Defense established a chain of command, chose a time and place for their attack, and intentionally recruited others who would follow their top-down leadership and who were prepared to engage in physical violence if necessary."
It’s totally a normal part of the past half century plus of the peaceful transition of power.
People get together on DC to help the outgoing president threaten and scare congress, to see if they change the way the election is called.
It’s just one of those things that people do to see if America is actually strong, and if congress folds, well you know you need a new congress.
Its tradition! Its like a hazing!
I mean, there was a whole plan around certifying the results of the election and it's not entirely clear how many people would have gone along with it if things had gone just a little bit different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_fake_electors_plot
I agree that Jan 6 was not that big a deal. However, Jan 6 was just one part of a larger, nearly successful conspiracy to overturn the election. The conspiracy included pressuring the Vice President to exceed his authority; fraudulent electors; and extorting false claims of fraud from states.
As on-the-nose as the Democrats are, I don't think that would have been possible if the public thought he orchestrated a serious attempt at a coup.
In the immediate aftermath of Jan 6, even his fellow republicans called it a coup, until they changed their minds for political expediency.
This is exactly how public perception will instantly normalize things if Trump ever gets the power to throw political enemies out of windows. "Oh this stuff happens all the time. Politicians have always been killing their enemies. Look up Seth Rich and Whitewater. Don't be so naive."
It will happen in the blink of an eye. And then it really is over.
Most of the Jan 6 trespassers got off pretty easy, especially if they settled. Most of them who made it into the rotunda stood around gaping with dumb looks on their faces, like the proverbial dog that catches the car. They didn’t know what to do and they sensed they shouldn’t be there. Many of them then listened to Capitol police offers in the building and exited.
But many didn’t exit and they formed a tense, violent, and scary mob, in the seat of our government, to disrupt the Constitutional transfer of power. It is amazing that more people didn’t die (a SWAT team quickly dispersed the mob outside the Speaker’s lobby right after the lone shooting) and there were many acts of heroism and smart policing to distract, disorient, and delay the mob, buying more time for evacuation of Members of Congress and for law enforcement to regroup in force. Many in the mob had weapons, which is a couple of felony counts right off the bat (possessing weapons in the Capitol, which is looser than you may think, and possessing weapons in the Secret Service restricted area around POTUS and VPOTUS, which is a felony that doesn’t mess around).
The felonies and misdemeanors at issue in the case I was on were pretty clear and the jury reached its verdict thoughtfully, carefully, and quickly (we all quietly read through the many pages of the counts and judge’s instructions before opening discussion; it was an excellent group of people).
January 6 was an insurrection. Most members of the mob were sad sack idiots, and I can feel sympathy for them as individuals. But if anything, the government did not treat them harshly enough, nor quickly enough.
I am a bit worried about my own safety now, with all the insurrectionists having been pardoned. Fun times.
If it was an insurrection, why didn’t they use them?
Or was it the peaceful kind?
1. They got lost. 2. When they got to the House, Cap Police was there, and distracted/delayed them for a few minutes. 3. Officers with guns drawn were on other side of doors. 4. Ashley Bobbitt was shot as soon as she started to climb through the Speaker’s lobby doorway, stopping and upsetting the mob. 5. The Capitol police SWAT came up the stairs into that area a minute or two later and cleared them out. 6. And finally I can’t emphasize this enough: these people were morons.
I don’t really want to argue online with a redpilled HN idiot about Jan 6. If you think Jan 6 wasn’t bad, then you, too, have likely been mislead because you, too, are likely a moron. Or if you’re not a moron, then you’ve just turned heel for the lulz, a moldbug wannabe.
it mentions exactly 7 people that carried guns:
Garret Miller
Christopher Kuehne
Guy Reffitt
Jerod Thomas Bargar
Mark Andre Mazza
Lonnie Leroy Coffman
Joe Biggs
also, Alex Kirk Harkrider brought a tomahawk axe
not much of an insurrection, we could say a mostly peaceful one
I find it odd that you’re ok with peaceful insurrections. It’s not ok for a small mob to attempt to overthrow the government, whether they go about it violently or not. (Ironically, the fictional election fraud that was being protested would itself be a peaceful insurrection, so one wonders what supporters of peaceful insurrections would have found to complain about in Biden’s victory!)
You can read the rest of the report if you are still inclined to view this disgraceful episode in US history as a ‘mostly peaceful’ one.
The fact that this failed doesn't really mean that the underlying intention was just "protesting".
Do they involve a crowd smashing through doors and windows specifically to reach or at least terrorize human victims inside?
Rioters were shining high power military-grade lasers at peace officers, assaulting cops. They sieged government buildings and destroyed and burned much of their own city. Nothing happened to most of them.
A young boy was shot and killed in Seattle (where a few blocks of the city 'seceded' from the US) and I watched some LARPing teenager dressed like a dollar-store ninja hit a cop in the head with a baseball bat (the ninja turned out to be a local politician's son so I can imagine the punishment levied). The mayor went on TV and described all this madness as a "summer of love".
The behaviour I observed was abhorrent and eclipsed anything that transpired on Jan 6.
Yet it was all conveniently forgotten.
Smashing some doors and windows was child's play in comparison, and the melodrama surrounding 1/6 was over the top. I actually heard someone describe it as "worse than 9/11". They were serious, too.
And you want me to believe the guy on 1/6 with the buffalo horns is somehow comparable to the cowards blinding people with industrial lasers? The Portland riots to this day is some of the most insane footage I've ever seen and the lack of punishment and length of time it was allowed to go on is unbelievable.
Most of the Portland rioters should still be in jail but most got off with a slap on the wrist if they got any punishment at all.
It's an inconvenient truth for some because I remember even middle aged Google engineers were arrested for acting like fools. You would think educated people would know better.
There is a 100% chance some posters on this very website were at the Portland or Seattle riots and somehow have justified that their participation was righteous.
I imagine the 1/6 folks felt the same way.
(Many of those arrested were let off because of insufficient evidence. I think that requiring evidence to convict someone is a good thing.)
I know what I saw, it was repugnant behaviour, don't try and split hairs. The fact that the madness was contained to only 10 blocks is, on the whole, irrelevant.
Good luck with your future riots.
I know what I saw: between 2020 and 2024 I worked at PSU and took a bus that went over the Hawthorne Bridge, went past the Justice Center, and dropped me off near City Hall. Once in a while I went to Pioneer Square to eat lunch. I worked late nights, and on the way back home after midnight I either walked back on Broadway or 4th, to City Hall, and took the same bus back. Those are the "10 blocks" you're talking about. The fact that they were all standing, not burnt, and were in use during business hours is fairly relevant to the conversation.
The worst I saw was the glass broken in the fancy glass entrance to the Oregon Historical Society. The best I saw was murals painted on the boards Apple had put up to protect their store in Pioneer Square.
So: what did you see?
Jan 6 was not overblown. Rioters rushed the building, smashed windows, and broke into the offices of Congresspeople and staffers. People were injured and hospitalized. Capitol Police were understaffed and lost control of the situation, and were physically attacked.
Those convicted of crimes due to their part in Jan 6 deserved what they got. It is a disgusting miscarriage of justice that nearly all of them have been pardoned.
"Mr. Redcap, you tried to shove him off a cliff."
Huh? American here. Can you point to any examples? I can't think of a single one.
I'm not seeing much in a quick search... unless you mean people who arrive normally and then are removed for heckling, which is totally different.
"Secret Service agents rushed President Donald Trump to a White House bunker on Friday night as hundreds of protesters gathered outside the executive mansion, some of them throwing rocks and tugging at police barricades.
"Trump spent nearly an hour in the bunker, which was designed for use in emergencies like terrorist attacks, according to a Republican close to the White House who was not authorized to publicly discuss private matters and spoke on condition of anonymity. The account was confirmed by an administration official who also spoke on condition of anonymity.
"The abrupt decision by the agents underscored the rattled mood inside the White House, where the chants from protesters in Lafayette Park could be heard all weekend and Secret Service agents and law enforcement officers struggled to contain the crowds."
As near as I can find, some 6 people were arrested for this violent protest by the Secret Service, and some 16 by DC police. Is is vanishingly difficult to find if anyone was subsequently charged and convicted for this event, which was without parallel, at least in my lifetime. This followed the events of May 30, 2020, when the Church of St. John's Episcopal In Lafayette Square, across from the White House, was sent on fire. To date it seems that no one has been arrested or charged for this destruction.
https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-ap-top-news-george-f...
This one wasn’t restricted to just a govt building, although it did start with the takeover of a police building. Kids were shot and killed. But the rioters were initially aligned with BLM so there was a lot of sympathy from the government and media. Barely anyone was investigated or punished, in contrast to Jan 6th.
This was basically a very long street protest, which is fundamentally different from taking over the US legislative buildings by force.
No children were shot. A 19-year old named Horace Lorenzo Anderson Jr was shot and killed. His killer, an 18-year-old mentally disabled person with a history of conflict with Anderson, was sentenced to 14 years in prison.
No matter your ideology, I'm not sure how you can believe this is the same category of thing.
But from a potential to overthrow the government perspective, Jan 6 was worse. The entire Senate and the Vice President were in that building. The stated goal of the mob was to stop the transfer of power ("stop the steal"). They chanted their methods, which included hanging the Vice President and Speaker of the House, 1st and 2nd in line of succession. They brought a gallows. That's why it was an insurrection and not just a protest.
That is a laughable assertion, most importantly because the job that Congress was doing on Jan 6th, and which the deliberate goal of the protesters was to stop, was the peaceful transfer of power, which is probably the most important (and historically rare) job in a modern democracy.
Saying "but hey, some left wing protesters surrounded a police station" is a ridiculous false equivalence, because what they were trying to accomplish was orders of magnitude different.
And one of those grandmothers rejected her pardon.
That is why everyone is calling out the alternative treatment of the BLM rioters which are heavily-aligned and supported by the Democratic party. If it was indeed the "state" that was impartially and fairly prosecuting and jailing all law-breakers, then the Republicans would have no argument and I'd be the first to disagree with them. But to a lot of us, the bias and double-standards are very obvious, which is why we're supporting them now.
same tired old lies, medicare is more efficient than private insurance
ok, but just after he fixed twitter bots like he promised, or ships working Autopilot.
If the DoD's auditors can't track down all the expenses, then why would DOGE be any more successful?
Running after bullshit is the low-hanging fruit.
Voters like to vote themselves "free" things, even if it might destroy the economy.
That none of our rulers question it nor propose alternatives is very telling about who runs our society and what their end goals are. The only reason society appears to be improving (and it is on the whole) is due to our incredible technological advancement. That being said, we should be living in a utopia by now if our rulers weren’t parasites.
Who controls Stripe if the Collison brothers perish in a car crash ? What do you think happens with the customer base, during that transition, exactly ? What happens to the jobs lost?
If i work all my life to give my kids a better future, who's to say that I can't do that ?
Employees.
"who manages businesses that are owned by sole owners that pass away?"
Whoever they hire.
"If i work all my life to give my kids a better future, who's to say that I can't do that ?"
$20 million is plenty. Taxing someone AFTER they die is the fairest possible time to do so. Insisting you should have control of your assets even after you are dead is pretty absurd when you really think about it.
EDIT: Honestly the minimum could be $100 million or even $1 billion. The goal is to prevent a permanent class of overlords from growing.
I don't dispute that you are coming from a sincere POV, but my point is that you haven't thought about the 2nd order consequences.
Liquidations are always messy, and usually wipe out value, and result in real losses of jobs and of customers. Have you thought about what happens when a trained operator is moved aside, by a vote of activist staff, to a charlatan (AKA "politician")?
Or, what about the tax consequences to the employees who get the awards ? What cash do they use to pay for the award ? Now employees are forced to sell to have liquidity. Who buys from them? A vicious CEO partnered with a vulture PE? Or maybe a competitor sitting on a pile of cash, with the well connected CEO's hidden knowledge about a founder competitor's health issues, and eagerly anticipating a monopoly upon death?
There's a million ways this goes literal off the rails. No company, no jobs, complete wealth destruction. There is another name for this action, when done without "regulation" support: its called confiscation or nationalization, and its usually done by despots or tyranical govts without respect to human flourising. That tells you all you need to know about this sort of tax.
An immoral action that is not illegal, its still immoral.
The road to serfdom is paved with good intentions.
The controlling interest in a company is determined by shares owned. This reads like you're suggesting that the revenue from inheritance taxes should be given in the form of shares to the employees of whichever company the deceased had ownership of.
This is actually a really good idea!
Work all your life to give yourself and your kids excessive power over me? I didn't agree to that. Society gets to decide what the social contract is, and a lot of us are not happy that excessive wealth/power is able to be accumulated, negatively affecting our lives. Why are we forced to also accumulate unnecessary wealth in order to defend ourselves? Perhaps a better reward for success is leisure and stress free living and providing an opportunity for another to also succeed and flourish.
I’m sure creating a strong disincentive to value creation won’t affect the economy in any way. Europe is doing so great with their much higher taxes, just look at Norway. By wealth tax hammering their entrepreneurial class the’ve encouraged them to leave so they can fully focus their economy on becoming a natural resource extracting petro-state. A real progressive utopia.
It’s not like we’d be creating a crazy strong incentive for the state to literally kill certain people to stay solvent. Ok, low key maybe we would be…but the Bolsheviks did such a fantastic job with all the private assets they seized.
There’s no possible way this can’t result in a utopian, prosperous, fair society. It works beautifully every time it is tried. Great idea comrade.
Artificially creating fairness by eliminating success has no downsides, especially in a competitive anarchic global system. It's gonna feel so good to not have those evil entrepreneurs trying to create too much value in the world to enrich their families. Fairness should be the ultimate end goal for everything, not overall prosperity. Because nature is 100% fair, this totally aligns with reality.
History has shown these systems work every time.
We should do plastic surgery to the best looking children to make them average-looking...it's social justice.
We won't achieve true fairness until we forcibly take central control of all decentralized processes (markets, nature) to ensure no tall poppies.
That’s nothing like someone’s good looks, which, by the way, is subjective and has changed over the ages.
As you have said, money is a fuzzy representation of at least some value created via societal transactions.
Genetics, on the other hand, are wholly undeserved, even by the people passing them on. If we aim to champion fairness, I don't see how this cannot be part of the conversation.
The only implementation detail I would change is the flat rate of $20 million. I would peg it to something like GDP per capita or average CoL multiplied by some number of years.
People have come from nothing and gone on to do amazing things. If you can’t get some kind of profit generating company off the ground or at least passive income through wise investing with that kind of windfall, then you quite frankly deserve to work in the proverbial widget factory with the unwashed masses. To wine about that betrays the lack of grit that probably lost you the nest egg on the first place.
The best entrepreneurs are the ones that are interested in learning and building amazing things. The ones in it to hoard wealth saddle the world with bullshit because it’s a bullshit incentive that requires bullshit mechanisms to protect their income stream. Think patent trolls.
If you want to see what fair looks like in nature, look at what every other animal beside humans get when they start life: the risk that around every corner lies a disease, predator, competitor, starvation, grave injury… What presumably sets humans apart and allowed us to thrive is cooperation on larger and larger scales throughout our evolution. Hoarding wealth is antithetical to the very thing that is supposed to make us an exceptional species.
"Hoarding wealth" is the entire reason we have capital to invest in new ideas and innovations.
Fairness sounds great of course! Who doesn't like fairness? The problem is, true fairness is neither achievable nor desirable, given the realities of human nature.
When you aim to force it onto the world via centralized authority, it generally results in worse outcomes since it can only be enforced punitively via the stick (instead of the carrot) -- creating even less fair power structures than the ones you aim to disrupt.
The point of my sarcastic posts is to illustrate this fundamental misunderstanding of human nature and how the world actually works. Again, we've tried this a million times, with the receipts to show for the results. It's not good.
In order for an economy to function, currency needs to, you know, be current. If you lock up current in a capacitor, it’s only potential energy, and it can leach away to nothing. Kinetic energy is what makes things actually happen.
I do agree with you on the dangers of centralized planning. But it’s a necessary evil. Indeed, there could be no wealth to hoard without centralized authority, because it is that authority that gives wealth (in its modern form, fiat currency) its value. Unless you want to go back to warlords, rape, pillage, slavery? Surely the leopards would never eat my face?
At the very least, you need to pay the devil his due in terms of the military that maintain the reality of the nation’s existence and soft power, in order for that fiat currency, economy, and way of life to even function at all. Not to mention all the other agencies that afford our modern quality of life.
That’s not the same as a feudal lord extracting his tribute because we elect the leaders that serve us and place limits on their occupation in the seat of power, as much as it would seem that some people want to do away with that system.
There’s no market economy on earth with 100% wealth confiscation above any threshold (as being suggested here). Might be wise to infer why that is.
But remember he's saying he wants to shut everything down. He's not planning to look into it, because he just wants to stop all payments of any kind.
They'll release that evidence right about the same time they release all the "evidence" that Giuliani had about election fraud. Which they've promised to release hundreds of times before. But never have. Because it doesn't exist.
Are there people outside the U.S. gaming the system? Sure. Are they "rings" or "gangs" or whatever scary name they're using this week? Based on past performance, I have zero faith we'll see any evidence.
As someone who is very into the "scambaiting" hobby of hunting down identity thieves, phone call scams, etc I would imagine they would look something like these operations you see in India or Russia where you get have an office full of professional thieves calling elderly people and scamming them out of their bank accounts, harvesting data or getting them to sign up for useless subscriptions. In 2023 alone there was $43 billion lost from identity theft. There was $200 billion in fraud from the various covid hardship assistance programs. These programs are huuuge and they have ballooned beyond what is logical in the past few years. Even democrats talk frequently about medicare fraud.
This is a classic misdirection: fixing Medicare means dealing with the world-record inefficiency of the American healthcare system and paying a little more in taxes. They can’t say that because it’s unpopular with the rich donor class, and if they say services will be cut it’ll be very unpopular with their elderly base, so instead they point to something everyone hates and pretend that it’s big enough to solve the fundamental mismatch.
These people have our information, right now, in some drive in their backpack. This will be a scandal for years to come if the nation survives this.
But also you’re missing an important theme of the administration. Foreign aid doesn’t go to Americans. Social security and Medicare do. Trump didn’t run a tea party platform.
"Avoid, at all costs, arriving at a scenario where the ground-up rewrite starts to look attractive"
Seems to me that in their narrow, reckless arrogance they're doing something similar to the mechanisms of government. This is all broken and people who built it were idiots. Lets just scrap it and built it again with a modern stack.
Chesterton's fence, metacognitive ability, overconfidence effect, those who do not learn from history, etc.
[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42920285
Also your theory doesn't hold up for cases when you rewrite your own code. I've rewritten my old code hundreds of time because I was "idiot" in a sense that it was unmaintainable with new changed requirements.
Rewrites are sometimes necessary.
Governance has a lot more "unknown unknowns" than you expect.
And just to make it clear: I am not being facetious, I am very concerned that all of these are under serious attack.
Checks and balances are already broken because of DOGE, because the Department of Justice simply ignored a court order to stop the funding freeze, and because the firing of FBI career employees was probably illegal [1].
Due process is coming under serious threat due to the building of camps in Guantanamo and El Salvador, where detainees will likely have insufficient access to legal counsel.
A government for and by the people will be replaced by fascist "network states", sovereign territorial entities under authoritarian control by a "CEO", i.e. dictator [2]. The goal is to enable ultra-wealthy individuals to freely "exit" democracies, to live and govern without any rules.
Inalienable rights are explicitly under attack by the ultra-libertarians in Musk's circles. Nick Land, one of the main thinkers behind this neo-fascist brand of thought (branding it as "Dark Enlightenment"), quotes Patri Friedman, who runs Pronomos Capital, the corporation that builds these network states for Peter Thiel and others:
> Patri Friedman remarks: “we think that free exit is so important that we’ve called it the only Universal Human Right.” [3]
Id est, building a privately-owned, corporate-controlled, dictatorial "network state", which is exactly what "free exit" means, justifies abolishing all human rights.
The worst thing is that this all sounds like an insane conspiracy theory, but this is operating completely in the open. The statements of Peter Thiel, Patri Friedman and others are freely available, and they make very clear (Peter Thiel):
> Most importantly, I no longer believe that freedom and democracy are compatible. [4]
[1]: https://www.msnbc.com/deadline-white-house/watch/-totally-il...
[2]: https://www.vcinfodocs.com/venture-capital-extremism
[3]: https://keithanyan.github.io/TheDarkEnlightenment.epub/TheDa...
[4]: https://www.cato-unbound.org/2009/04/13/peter-thiel/educatio...
So they've decided this time to rampage straight out of the gates and sustain it as long as they can.
This is a key weakness of central planners - the centralization and the slow rate of development of the bureaucracy. It takes far more effort to develop an invasive and parasitic bureaucracy than it does to blow it to pieces.
So this is a natural strategic asymmetry that makes perfect sense to exploit. Enjoy!
The size of the federal workforce has not grown in 50 years.
These cuts will make no impact on the federal debt.
DOGE is breaking every federal records law there is with no oversight.
Elon Musk has clear, undeniable conflicts of interest at play here.
But people are celebrating because the federal government is .. slow, relies on the interpretation of complex law and procedure, and I guess is nice to women and minorities.
And the unelected government isn’t nice to us “minorities.” it’s full of ideologues who categorize us into meaningless groups like “Hispanic” and “Asian,” fund random NGOs that we have never heard of that purport to speak for us, and want to implement a system of racial preferences in gerrymandering. I’d love to see how many grants went to “Asian” organizations that promote the idea that “AAPI hate” is more of a problem than rising crime or affirmative action.
Curious if you have thoughts on Elon Musk's conflicts of interest? Both as a large federal contractor, and as someone with business dependence on China. Also the breaking of federal records laws (e.g. using signal and not retaining any other records).
The narrative emerging here is that the same permanent-government gremlins that we always knew bankrolled efforts to destabilize the rest of the world are perfectly okay with turning those same tactics inward if the wrong candidate wins the election. If we can put these people out of business and find even $25 billion a year in the process it will be worth it.
I don’t care about Elon’s conflicts. Worst thing from that is we get a giant EV credit next year. I’m much more worried about the conflict from federal employees who overwhelmingly support one party funneling federal money to aligned NGOs.
It's clear that we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it here -- so you're welcome to the final word if you want it -- but I think the feeling that resonates with me in these conversations is "I don't care about the law or other consequences as long as I get my way." That feels bad to me.
And when people making those points disagree with me on it -- this week it's justification to kill USAID and give treasury control to Musk, next week it will be the destruction of the department of education, soon it will be ignoring the 14th amendment of the constitution -- it's hard to tell if they aren't being honest with me or if they aren't being honest with themselves.
Finally someone with a "just ship it" mindset has entered the govt and is getting shit done for the first time in forever.
When you see the answer you might question the honesty of the cost-savings argument here.
This is to make any doubts regarding e.g USAID public instead of making such drastic measures necessary.
But also make work of an entity such as Doge transparent. They are after all funded by my money (as a taxpayer).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_public_access_to_...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Information_Act_(...
That DOGE is not transparent is because the Musk/Trump administration has moved beyond the rule of law.
In the U.S., too. In fact, it was the United States that pioneered this in the modern age.
But it's all happening so quickly that nobody can keep up with it. And the people who are supposed to take care of these things have been fired.
Also bad, when requests are made by legitimate parties, they are being ignored or dismissed by the new regime.
Let what's happening in the U.S. serve as a warning to you that no matter what laws you pass, electing lawless people brings lawlessness. And the law you passed cannot help you against people who don't respect the law.
This was instituted in Sweden in the year 1766. Source: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offentlighetsprincipen
That's 10 years before the USA declared independence.
The hack in the US is to just label everything "SECRET," and it's excluded from FOIA.
These drastic measures are neither necessary[1] nor legal (Well, they are a necessary step in carrying out a self-coup...) But there's nobody left to prosecute or enforce the law.
First they came for the judges and made sure that the courts were stacked... And then they could do what they want, because they have the police, the army, and the courts.
[1] It's actually wild how people here are actively arguing for shredding the constitution because the country is carrying a debt. America truly is done.
It seems clear where this is going. Data mining and algorithmic (claimed!) efficiency improvements while working on an essential and critical production system.
Since these people claim that "AI" does not need to respect privacy and copyright, perhaps they'll also train a model on this.
Where are the Democrats on all this? There is hardly any opposition. Are they not interrupting their enemy while he is making mistakes? That would be the only explanation.
They have as much ability to pass laws as you or I personally do. They have as much ability to hand down a Supreme Court or direct law enforcement as you or I personally do. None. Where are we? Complaining on social media I guess.
I’m quite frustrated why my elected officials as well but it is kind of hard to blame them when we don’t give them any actual power to wield.
It sounds like some are finding a clue, like the ones who stomped down to USAID with reporters in tow today. They need to do more of this.
Just because they can't pass legislation doesn't mean they are out of ideas.
What you can do is write to or call them. Ask them to vote no on every senate confirmation. Ask them to not provide unanimous consent. Ask them to make a scene. Demand answers!
Have they voted on a single thing yet except the Laken Riley Act? (Which they probably shouldn't have done, but anyway.) This administration is not waiting on Congress to do anything.
But that aside, I agree that they need to start getting back attention. Being absolutely silent except for individuals saying things that are only reported on Bluesky is not enough to be taking back control of attention.
I mean on things like confirmations, but when bills start coming up reps need to go full on toddler mode and say no to everything.
They need to read the Mitch McConnell book on gumming up the works of government and grind everything to a halt until the madness stops.
> But that aside, I agree that they need to start getting back attention. Being absolutely silent except for individuals saying things that are only reported on Bluesky is not enough to be taking back control of attention.
I completely agree. Social media doesn't help anything, unless they're live streaming themselves daring the people obstructing Treasury to arrest them.
This isn't a "business as usual" moment, this is a five-alarm-fire moment.
Good read on that topic
Democrats received more money than Republicans from big tech and media for a very long time, including the most recent presidential election. Are big media stupid for donating more to their enemies than who they purportedly support?
Your other option is admitting that Democrats had previously owned the media and doing precisely the thing you're accusing Conservatives of doing. You definitely cannot claim they did not seeing the checks written out to DNC and other PACs alongside the board seats from previous administrations.
You mean the same Democrats who were not given a majority on neither legislative houses, nor the Presidency?
Some people voted against their best interests. Consequences.
> Where are the Democrats on all this? There is hardly any opposition
I think because this is so unprecedented the structures to oversee simply don't exist. The article mentions that congress has no mechanisms for oversight, and Elon is moving too quickly in this area for any checks to take place.
How the administration responds to those is going to define how this constitutional crisis unfolds. And it is a constitutional crisis: congress unambiguously has the power of the purse, not the executive.
If Trump gets away with this, it isn't clear that Congress has any power at all.
He's helping destroy the Federal government because doing so aligns with his interests as a billionaire.
Being exposed to the arguments over and over, repeatedly, probably matters more than their quality. That's what I was going for with "cooked", since "persuaded" isn't quite the right word for it.
Where are the people being brought back after voting for Biden or Harris?
https://www.c-span.org/program/news-conference/congressional...
I think there's a fear they'll end up on the Kash Patel FBI enemies list:
https://newrepublic.com/article/188946/kash-patel-fbi-enemie...
So, yeah. I guess we got the government we voted for? And since it’s a democracy, I suppose that means we have exactly the government we deserve?
Maybe it gets better later in the administration? That’s my hope anyway.
Well, we voted based on the only two options that were shoved down our throats by various groups of the wealthiest people on the planet. I don't personally think we deserve this, why would we? That said, if we don't do something, it won't get better.
Well, we should have made a system that didn’t allow the wealthiest people on the planet to do that.
Not trying to be flip, I’m just trying to point out that it still all comes back to us in the end. We just have to hope for the best at this point. Buyer’s remorse is not gonna change the actions these people are likely to take.
I do agree with you when you say, something needs to be done. If these pres-vice pres pairings are the best the current system could come up with, then obviously there is a need to add some new aspects to the system that might encourage more competence in the candidates it produces.
This feels correct-ish, but also pretty unrealistic. If you're born into a system where you have to choose between getting slapped and getting stabbed, then obviously the system shouldn't have been made that way -- that doesn't change the fact that it is that way, and you have to act within that system regardless of what ought to be the system instead.
It seems like we won't have to worry about the current system much longer though
Voting isn't a one time thing, it has repercussions that can be felt decades later (see shortages of ATC because of the actions of Reagan in the 80's).
What about the Trump administration is "intelligent"? Trump lies about everything. Pointing out other politicians lie isn't a good comeback. Trump lacks all understanding of how tariffs work, he said he was going to "repeal and replace" Obamacare on "day 1" in 2016, only to say he has "concepts of a plan" in 2024, whatever the fuck that means. He rarely has "ideas", he just bitches about stuff and handwaves away everything when pressed for any details.
"Lawful order"? I don't know that that means. I would say that writing a lot of executive orders that go directly against the constitution is literally the opposite of "lawful order", but you're free to disagree.
By way of threats of tariffs, He's gotten Columbia, Mexico and Canada to enact policies in the interests of America.
America gets constantly screwed by other nations because we've allowed great trade imbalances and weak borders. Other nations have been happy to step back and let the US fund the UN, NATO, etc. Historically, we have the lowest tariffs and accept the most illegal immigrants in the world. Trump's changing that and I'm here for it.
Btw, I'm all for legal immigration. I'm one myself. My family escaped a communist country and has experienced life under a leader much more authoritarian that what the Left conjures up about the other side.
Trying to revoke birthright citizenship is not “enforcing existing law”.
The concessions from Mexico and Canada were already planned from last administration. Moreover, now there are retaliatory tariffs coming from them.
How does a trade imbalance imply that we are “screwed”? Trump repeats that constantly but it doesn’t seem implied to me.
The stuff about NATO is a lot more complicated than you’re making it out to be.
This is my biggest issue with Trump and his supporters, they treat everything as this incredibly reductive, black and white, “simple” issue.
No he did not. Biden's first acts were to repeal Trump's stringent immigration orders. After 3 and half years with another election looming and seeing the disaster that caused, all of the sudden, his administration wasn't so hot on open borders anymore. If he enforced immigration laws, we wouldn't have so many people who have illegally entered the country.
> Trying to revoke birthright citizenship is not “enforcing existing law”.
And I never claimed that. But I support an amendment towards that end.
> The concessions from Mexico and Canada were already planned from last administration.
Nope, the 10,000 troops Mexico just agreed to is on top of whatever other things they "promised" to do. And tariffs are off the table for now.
> Moreover, now there are retaliatory tariffs coming from them.
Nope, no tariffs have been enacted on either side at the moment.
> How does a trade imbalance imply that we are “screwed”?
US trade imbalance by year:
2020: $626 billion 2021: $858 billion 2022: $971 billion 2023: $1 trillion
We also have historically the lowest tariff rates in the world. Gee, I wonder if that's related. And then when we raise them to level the playing field, everyone bitches and whines.
> The stuff about NATO is a lot more complicated than you’re making it out to be.
> This is my biggest issue with Trump and his supporters, they treat everything as this incredibly reductive, black and white, “simple” issue.
Pretty hand wavy there.
My issue with liberals is the lack of common sense, e.g. allowing biological men to destroy women in sports, not being willing to define what a woman is, getting mad at Trump for enforcing immigration laws (i.e. not letting people enter the country illegally and kicking out those who do)
Again, a bipartisan immigration reform was on its way to pass through congress until Trump told all the conservatives to kill it.
> And I never claimed that. But I support an amendment towards that end.
So you agree that an executive order ending birthright citizenship is bad?
> We also have historically the lowest tariff rates in the world. Gee, I wonder if that's related.
You still haven't demonstrated how having a trade imbalance implies that we're "being screwed". Trump keeps asserting that, but that doesn't seem obvious to me.
> Pretty hand wavy there.
Sure, I was writing this on my phone and I didn't have time to go into the details of the intricacies of NATO. You're free to look into the details of NATO yourself (you haven't), and if you do you'll likely understand why saying that the US is being screwed by paying more for NATO doesn't make sense.
> My issue with liberals is the lack of common sense,
That's because "common sense" doesn't actually mean anything. What do you think that "common sense" means? Your "gut feeling"?
"Common sense" is a phrase used by pseudo-intellectuals who want to reduce everything into pithy one-liners and ignore the fact that the world is actually pretty complicated, and your "common sense" is often wrong. It's not exclusive to conservatives, but it does seem to be a phrase that's extremely popular with them.
I reject the notion that immigration, NATO, biological gender, and pretty much any federal policy can be easily explained with "common sense". But what do I know, I'm just a liberal who doesn't have any I guess.
ETA:
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c36e41dx425o - US deportations under Biden surpass Trump's record
> Nope, the 10,000 troops Mexico just agreed to is on top of whatever other things they "promised" to do. And tariffs are off the table for now.
You're right, I looked it up, though what I should point out is that Biden was able to get Mexico to send troops without starting a trade war. It's not clear to me that this required the threat of a trade war.
> * Rep. Chris Murphy (D-CT) “This is a constitutional crisis that we are in today. Let’s call it what it is.” -And- "Let's not pull any punches about why this is happening. Elon Musk makes billions off of his business with China. And China is cheering at this action today. There is no question that the billionaire class trying to take over our govt right now is doing it based on self-interest."
> * Rep. Gerry Connolly (D-VA) "It is a matter for Congress to deal with, not an unelected billionaire oligarchy named Elon Musk. And Elon, if you want to run USAID, get nominated by Trump and go to the Senate and good luck in getting confirmed."
> * Rep. Van Hollen (D-MD) “We asked to enter the Aid building, really on behalf of the American people, but to talk to Aid employees, because … there’s been a gag order imposed on Aid employees. So we wanted to learn first-hand what’s happening. We were denied entry based on the order that they received from Elon Musk and Doge, which just goes to show that this was an illegal power grab by someone who contributed $267bn to the Trump effort in these elections.”
Estimated crowd of 100 protesters (reported). Other attendees and speeches made by Congressmen Beyer, Raskin, Connolly, Omar, Olzewski, Senator Van Hollen (seems like more maybe there not much coverage to confirm)
This is the kind of thing that someone who's on TikTok a lot says. The line being fed to people by the Chinese government to make the Democrats look bad as well. But the truth is the Democrats have no power. None. They can't do anything to stop this. Elizabeth Warren and AOC have just as much power as I do to stop Elon Musk and Donald Trump.
So the three branches of government are being dismantled? There won't be anymore Congress or Supreme Court?
It's really hard to take hysterical comments like this seriously.
> I try to keep emotion out of this newsletter. I have always tried to write Notes on the Crises in a calm, detached tone so that the information I highlight shines through. However, I must be honest with readers: I’m absolutely terrified. When I first read the Washington Post’s reporting I subsequently had a panic attack. I am not subject to those. I didn’t have one during the start of Covid-19 when I started writing about the full health, economic, and political consequences in March 2020 and knew before many, many people that millions would die. Nor at any time subsequently did I have one. Even as someone who has spent an unusual amount of time thinking about the Treasury’s internal payments system for a person who has never been in government, I find grasping the full implications of Elon Musk and his apparatchiks reaching into and trying to exert full control over the Treasury’s payment system mind-boggling.
> There is nothing more important on the entire planet than getting Elon Musk and DOGE out of the Bureau of the Fiscal Service and allowing career civil service employees to run the Treasury’s internal payments system without capricious and self-serving interference from billionaires and their allies. This effort must fail if we are to safeguard any semblance of due process and lawfulness in the executive branch. A vague anonymous promise that DOGE only has “read only” access is not enough. They need to be rooted out so that we can return to the slower moving, less dangerous, “five alarm fire” constitutional crisis we were having as of Friday morning.
> It might be bad as well, but at least the news will be interesting.
For those who read nothing about the first half of the 20th century, sure. For them this is surely "interesting". But since you wouldn't like your harm to be someone else's entertainment either, that's not an argument for anything.
> It might be bad as well, but at least the news will be interesting.
Of course this doesn't mean "this might suck for me, but at least it will be interesting news for others". Why pretend otherwise?
> Approximately 20 members of Elon Musk’s staff have begun working within the Education Department. They have gained access to multiple sensitive internal systems, including a financial aid dataset containing the personal information of millions of students enrolled in the federal student aid program.
https://bsky.app/profile/altnps.bsky.social/post/3lhcyirig6k...
You don't receive such aid, correct? So why care. Just a bunch of dudes soaking up highly sensitive information to do whatever with.
Trump spoke plenty of times of his desire of purging all sorts of things including the "deep state". It's amazing to me that all it takes is to tack on some vague claims about "efficiency" from a guy who lies like a child about the dumbest things, for some Americans to say "but what IF it saves a bit of money?" and just ignore the whole "using a very flimsy excuse to purge political opposition" thing.
The constitutional requirement is that "Officers of the United States" need Senate confirmation unless Congress has provided otherwise. The precise contours of this have never been super well defined, but it doesn't sound like Musk is exercising sovereign power under his own authority, at least not yet.
[0] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/esta...
Hey remember when there was concern that he might not have time to effectively run Tesla and SpaceX. And then Twitter. And 12 kids. Or popping ketamine and playing Diablo 4 all night.
I guess he's got time to run the country too.
Musk and his coup team aren't really accountable to anyone but Trump, and have no direct legal authority. The way that they get things done is by threatening and steamrolling people, and gaining control of important functions (like the ability to put people on leave or fire them). All of this requires some amount of secrecy and chaos in order to pull off. If they were posting detailed plans on their website, it would make those plans harder to execute.
Some of them most certainly could not pass US security clearance.
https://bsky.app/profile/jsweetli.bsky.social/post/3lh7nii7y...
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyl171lyewo
> All of these men see themselves as the heroes or protagonists in their own sci-fi saga. And a key part of being a “technological superman” — or ubermensch, as the German philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche would say — is that you’re above the law. Common-sense morality doesn’t apply to you because you’re a superior being on a superior mission. Thiel, it should be noted, is a big Nietzsche fan, though his is an extremely selective reading of the philosopher’s work.
> The ubermensch ideology helps explain the broligarchs’ disturbing gender politics. “The ‘bro’ part of broligarch is not incidental to this — it’s built on this idea that not only are these guys superior, they are superior because they’re guys,” Harrington said.
[…]
> The so-called network state is “a fancy name for tech authoritarianism,” journalist Gil Duran, who has spent the past year reporting on these building projects, told me. “The idea is to build power over the long term by controlling money, politics, technology, and land.”
* https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/395646/trump-inauguration...
Also maybe "Why big tech turned right":
* https://www.vox.com/politics/397525/trump-big-tech-musk-bezo...
General right-wing plan:
* https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c977njnvq2do
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
https://x.com/garrytan/status/1886283334466302201
as though "dont worry everyone, these kids are really good coders!" has anything to do with it
the tech oligarchs know nothing about wisdom, integrity, rule of law, it's all a big joke beneath their superior brains
I don’t know how any of these people can take themselves this seriously. If Claude et al. will be guiding national budget policy we’re in for interesting times…
Musk is an exception in that he at least popularized and scaled production of the original Tesla inventors from whom he bought the company. SpaceX seems to be run by Gwynne Shotwell.
It’d be more funny if people didn’t actually believe them.
/s
They were tearing down statues and demanding public self-criticism a few years ago, but that was actually the other side.
Shutting down the universities and firing any professor who isn't politically correct is a couple of years in the future; Trump probably has to replace the accreditation system for the universities first. There isn't currently a mechanism for "sending down" suspected subversive thinkers except for deportation.
The Red Guards haven't been formed yet, though commuting the sentences of the ringleaders of the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys is a start. (You may not be aware of this, but the Red Guards were over 10 million people.)
The news media are still independent, for all that matters.
So are almost all of the police, although Trump has said he wants to bring them under his command.
So I don't think we're likely to see that kind of widespread mass killing in the next two or three years. The organizational infrastructure for doing it the traditional way, using hand tools, can't be built overnight. Vance's ally Anduril might be able to automate the process with AI-powered surveillance drones, but they won't have enough production capacity for at least three years.
You must be meaning the one the Democrats were part of then-
Classifying any sort of Palestinian aid group as a terrorist organization to strip them of being nonprofits, pressuring schools to expel pro-palestinian protesters?
Or the other one the democrats lead- When every occupy wall street leader was arrested and the protesters were gassed by the military?
Every president is a villain but while Obama didn't care about the first or fourth amendment, the current admin doesn't seem to care about anything.
Not to mention they've probably already accessed Secret and up levels of classified data without a clearance, which would get any normal gov employee fired and potentially thrown in jail depending on the offense.
I also want to highlight that OPM is the backbone of workers rights for the government. Most skilled positions working directly for the gov are already underpaid. OPM was one of the few pros they had to offer; robust worker rights that are required across the fed.
Sure, a 55 year old also may not have the appropriate responsibility, but at least it's reasonable to expect that they could.
Decisions will ultimately be made and implemented by the appropriate authorities, of course.
What does this even mean?
Got it.
The lack of critical thinking in this entire comment section is breathtaking?
Your post is just a lie. A lie by omission.
Even Monroe at that time likely had years more of practical life experience than the people working for Musk right now.
On top of that, I would not automatically assume Musk's staff have the skills and talent of the people you mention.
Me neither. I was arguing the opposite: we should not assume that one does not have experience to the point that it is outrageous, just because that person is young. Such a young age should make us more doubtful, but should not give us complete conviction.
That's why it's relevant.
However, engineering schools have not been affected, AFAIK.
It takes tenure to know what sorts of discretion are required when reporting to such an extremely senior "leader", and to not get caught up in the hype of being involved in something.
(edit: added last sentence)
Similarly, it is easier to convince an impressionable 19yo to do reckless and possibly illegal things.
It doesn't strike me as totally irrelevant.
[0]: DOGE may not technically be an "agency", but whatever the case, they have and are acting with power equal to that of an agency.
You're offering a completely false dichotomy here.
Not all 20-year olds are mature. No mater how bright they might be when it comes to topics in STEM. Their minds haven't matured enough, especially the male mind.
They do immature shit because there's prestige dangling in-front of them, or because they've been convinces by Musk et. al. that this is the cause to fight for.
There's a reason organized crime preys on young people. They're malleable, do what they're told, blindly ambitious, and want to please their superiors at all costs.
I can’t imagine anyone but insufferably arrogant - and really fucking wrong - young people making an argument to the contrary. Not that there aren’t benefits to youth - being unburdened by complexity, ignorant enough to be especially bold - but these aren’t actually that useful. And we have good evidence to support that; older founders do better, for example: https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/younger-old...
Decoding ancient scrolls has no relevance to government procedures.
But we don't actually know what they're doing.
I write that only half in jest. Maybe less than half.
I don't think anybody is doubting they're smart, just that they have no experience doing this kind of work and are now being trusted by the highest level of government to do it.
A SAP FICO consultant in Moldova is better qualified than these young men.
Imagine being one of those 6 with your name on the list of people that destroyed US democracy.
Have they explained what they are doing? No. If you ask them, would they tell you? Is there any kind of oversight available? No. As a matter of fact, prior to these actions, Trump dismissed the inspectors general responsible for this oversight, in violation of the law which was passed to prevent him from doing just that, again.
Who in their right mind would assume that everything "above board"?
https://www.crisesnotes.com/elon-musk-wants-to-get-operation...
https://popular.info/p/musk-associates-given-unfettered
no matter political affiliation, this should be alarming the level of access these people have been given without security clearances etc.
this is a national security issue.
i very much lack sleep today.
Some of us know people that work for him, confirming he is that boss that will fire anyone giving him bad news on the spot because he wants to push his dumbass unreachable deadlines. And mostly because he thinks it's cool and has reveled in his ability to fire people like any small human would.
We have the evidence of the family, that everything Musk says about his presence in raising his own kids is a lie. He was not around, and seems to only push the narrative because he knows being an absentee father would be unpalatable to the conservatives he's courting.
They're hiring interns to fire people because they're molding their ride or die sycophants. It's completely natural to assume when they're telling us they're being thoughtful, they aren't. That when they say it's for you, it's for them. It always has been. That you choose to stick your head in the sand is your problem.
Congress gets to make laws. They can intervene by making a law that allows them to intervene, which is the job we elected them to do. Apparently they prefer getting bossed around instead.
I don't even have much to say about which sorts of decisions that two thirds should make--that's their job--I'd just like it if they grew a spine and started making some.
https://sfonline.barnard.edu/ruth-wilson-gilmore-in-the-shad...
I guess we should be thankful that the new Red Guards aren't beating federal employees to death. Yet.
You may not be aware of this, but the Red Guards were over 10 million people.
According to https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much-us-aid-going-ukraine, "It’s important to note that of the $175 billion total, only $106 billion directly aids the government of Ukraine. Most of the remainder is funding various U.S. activities associated with the war in Ukraine, and a small portion supports other affected countries in the region." Of that $106, about $70 billion is weapons, $33 is budget support. So it makes sense that lawmakers would claim that "We sent Ukraine $175 billion!" and Zelenskyy would directly see less than $175.
The the line from Zelenskyy is an attempt to clarify to the world that $X billion in a bill somewhere doesn't equate to $X billion on the ground in Ukraine directly; he's not saying there was some kind of corruption involved and that the money mysteriously disappeared.
This is better hyperinflation or a violent revolution, at least, which is what it avoids for us. Anyone who doesn't see that hasn't done the thought experiment of extrapolating out our spending for a few more decades. It can't continue, period. Period. Our only choice is how to change it and our democracy (congresspuppets controlled by lobbies) fundamentally cannot fix this. Does anyone have a better idea that will actually work?
My idea? Raise taxes. I know, it's radical and literally no one has ever thought of it, but we tried lowering taxes and the deficit goes up. So maybe if we raise taxes the deficit will go down.
As imperfect as DOGE is, its the only measure I can see actually happening that has a shot at cutting the deficit. I would love to think of another one.
I also think we should try to cut spending BEFORE raising taxes. What seems better? Less waste and less tax or more waste and more tax? What is better for the economy (for the organization of labor and capital) in the long run? What will attract foreign investment? What will allow accrual of consumer savings?
DOGE is positive because we need a wrecking ball to come in and cut spending because the system is rotten and Congress and the media don't serve the people anymore. They plumb won't do it. I honestly couldn't think of a better personality profile than an idealistic 25 year old engineer who is young enough to hate the government and resent being born 100k in debt as much as I do. Who hates housing prices and health care and the MIC. Someone relentlessly logical whose raison d'entre is optimizing complex systems. At least they'll do something about all of this. Waiting on Congress to do something against the will of their masters is a losing game.
Because when you cut taxes on the super wealthy, you are effectively taking money away from education and infrastructure and allocating it towards superyachts.
How long do you think we should wait for Congress to significantly raise taxes on the rich? How confident are you that will ever happen? Have you seen a graph of the national debt? How long do you think we have to wait? Why oppose cutting spending now? That's not in conflict with raising taxes for the wealthy, both should be done.
Why is making the public suffer considered fair game but making the super wealthy pay their share politically inconceivable?
When I think of spending cuts, I think of: USAID (23B), that rural fiber project (42.5B) and the electric charging stations (7B), stuff like that. I have a hard time imagining that these are net economic positives, but I am sure you have different services in mind that would be worse to cut. My impression is that the government is actually full of waste. I certainly don't feel like the citizens receive 8T of value in return for the taxes we pay.
Which election are you talking about? Because I'm not referring to the election that happens every four years in the States. Every election in-between can, and often does, have major consequences. Or, it could, if enough people made sure of it.
That might actually be related to your question -- what matters is not just one election. If that's the case, then we've already lost.
If you're looking someone to blame, blame the idiots who engineered the blue ticket, not the voters who couldn't stomach it
I think you will understand eventually.
We'll see who's ultimately right in four years.
Your last administration and congress tried to get a tighter grip on immigration, but it got blocked.
The "concessions" from Canada and Mexico that they made in order to avoid the tariffs were planned since end of last year.
> stop letting countries take advantage of us economically
That's _incredibly_ rich coming from a US citizen.
A country that has been continuously waging war, has been spying on their allies privately and publicly at a massive scale, is living on an ever increasing private and public debt, has been strongarming smaller countries, including allies and including neutral countries, in order to adhere to their economic and legal demands. And is primarily responsible for two of the largest economic crisis in recent history.
Give me a break...
> cut stupid government waste
Cutting waste is always good. That's common sense. Your administration hasn't however proven that they will do that in any meaningful way so far. I would have started with the 100mio in golf outings or the massive "defense" budget.
From here all of this theater looks like regular old corruption.
> cut out the identity politics and DEI wasteful bullshit
I'm not familiar with how "DEI wasteful bullshit" actually manifests. What I'm however familiar with is that this and other acronyms are constantly used to lie, distract and divide. Shortly after recent disasters "DEI" was blamed by your admin before any proper analysis could even be made. That's shameful behavior and not something to be proud of.
bullshit. Biden's first acts were to repeal Trump's stringent immigration orders. After 3 and half years with another election looming and seeing the disaster that caused, all of the sudden, his administration wasn't so hot on open borders anymore.
> The "concessions" from Canada and Mexico that they made in order to avoid the tariffs were planned since end of last year.
No they were not. The 10,000 troops to the border is on top of whatever Mexico has already agreed to. And historically, they agree to a lot of things, but don't actually follow through (until forced to the negotiating table)
>> stop letting countries take advantage of us economically
> That's _incredibly_ rich coming from a US citizen.
The US trade imbalance has historically been heavily skewed towards other nations one of the major reasons being we have some of the lowest tariff rates. So when we decide that BS is enough and we'll raise ours like everyone else does, everyone starts whining because we insist on fairness. Same with global security responsibility. Would you like to see a world where the US refused the responsibility to be a deterrence to Russia, China, Iran and their ilk?
< Continuously waging war...
What recent war have we started? And if you think we were responsible for the COVID related economic crisis, think again. (China)
Other nations love to bitch about us, but when it comes time to do things like save Europe from Nazi Germany, counter Russia and China, everyone' happy to let us spend the resources and energy.
> Your administration hasn't however proven that they will do that in any meaningful way so far. I would have started with the 100mio in golf outings or the massive "defense" budget.
It's been two weeks? At this point, you're just being willfully ignorant and biased, which is par for the course for you progressive/liberal types.
> DEI wasteful bullshit" actually manifests
all the government DEI offices and staff that do nothing is a good start.
You have a trade deficit, because you're spending more than you can afford to a degree that you crashed the global economy. And have the audacity to say that your allies are taking advantage of you.
The reason nobody has been calling it out, is because financial institutions are licking their fingers from the massive debt Americans accumulate. But everyone knows that the next crash will happen and everyone knows where it will originate from _again_.
Trump is probably right when he repeatedly said that the US in in decline. But what he's doing is shifting the blame to foreigners instead of pointing the finger to where it hurts.
i hope they don't end too many species along the way
None of this shit is going to help the economy.
Eggs are more expensive already and the current admin has admitted they aren’t going to do anything about it.
But the media won’t be hammering on the egg price story, and people won’t feel like it’s as bad.
Also-
I do wish the gripe wasn't the egg thing - that one in specific is because they're intentionally killing hens to keep us safe from disease. last thing i want is for them to make the egg price go down and everyone gets sick.
when the tarrifs happen we will have plenty of economic disaster to point to.
Also Also-
when the pitch for the two candidates are "things stay bad" vs "i promise to change things to make your life better (lie)", it kinda makes sense
i don't agree with trump voters. frankly i hate them. but it's understandable at least
My take is its less left/right and more useful/useless. Obama won big because people thought he'd do something.
Trump promised a lot of change and boy he's certainly doing exactly that.
At the end of the day though, I think the time of party politics is over. Whatever Americas gonna be like next its not gonna be this
The Democratic Party has been putting forward establishment candidates since at least Jimmy Carter, the only exceptions being Bill Clinton and Obama. And notably, they both were, like Trump, a bit of a black swan in party politics.
When you vote for Kamala over Trump, you show them your preferences, and they'll run and govern in a more methodical way. The next batch of candidates gets even better.
But Trump winning means the next batch will be even worse.
the dems are fighting to give as few boons as possible to the people and as much to their donors and we tell them when the line was crossed.
2. we're not getting another batch lol
Pretty wild to suggest that continuing stability, growth, and reindustrialization is the same as tearing everything down.
From the perspective of tens, if not a hundred million, what that meant is continued decline, increased instability and broken promises, because that's the long term trend they're living and the one they were promised would continue.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/24655/party-images.aspx
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/favorability/dona...
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/favorability/kama...
Vote in a democracy. Do things to preserve voting in a democracy.
Vote with your wallet for representative news stories that matter to you and not just indulgent shock material.
Vote with your mind and know what is truly important for you, your happiness, and your loved ones.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
why is this redirecting to lifetips.it ? did archive.today get hacked?
https://web.archive.org/web/20250202235355/https://www.wired...
This is incredibly dangerous. A select few, having such control over so many millions? Are you nuts?! This is a serious question, as a new member of this community, is this a normal type of comment I can expect on HN?
The physics are different here
I'm amazed that ANYONE is okay with this nonsense.
I hope people condemning the former also condemn the latter.
This is reporting in the public interest. Nothing they revealed isn't available already as verifiable public information.
But then again... these are people outright breaking the law and I sure do want to know who's potentially tampering with my data. If the courts won't do it, someone has to put names and faces to this.
I'm still not sure if the kids were actually hired though.
They're acting in official capacity. I've lived in towns where the mayor is not elected. They're still public figures.
U.S. Code § 1924 - Unauthorized removal and retention of classified documents or material
U.S. Code § 371 - Obstructing or Impairing Legitimate Government Activity
Executive Order 14117 of February 28, 2024, “Preventing Access to Americans' Bulk Sensitive Personal Data and United States Government-Related Data by Countries of Concern” (“the Order”) (though this may be rescinded by Trump)
If any of those BS Crypto plans[0] have any weight to them That's a straight out constitutional overstep
Article I, Section 8, Clause 5: "The Congress shall have Power . . . to coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; . . ."
I'm probably only scratching the surface here. I'm not surprised if there's a dozen other laws with legal ledger around this. You don't want any one man messing with the economy.
[0]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/digital-assets/2025/02/02/this-...
>Now, as fears emerge Trump’s administration is “dangerously” undermining the U.S. dollar, Musk has confirmed he wants to put the U.S. Treasury on a blockchain, the technology that underpins bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies—including Musk’s pet project dogecoin.
They chose this approach. No one is under any obligation to abet and protect them.
This might be true, however...
> Nothing they revealed isn't available already as verifiable public information.
... collating publicly available information and publishing it in one place would still meet my definition of doxxing.
(In this case, the doxxing _might_ be entirely justified and be in the public interest. I don't know.)
Yes, I explicitly did not challenge that. (Though I have no clue whether I should agree with it, either.)
I challenged the justification of "Nothing they revealed isn't available already as verifiable public information."
Something being a good thing (or true or whatever), doesn't automatically make all arguments in favour of that thing good arguments.
It looks like you can't believe that there are bad arguments for good causes; and instead want to keep arguing that the cause is good, and thus all arguments must be good?
When Musk does it:
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1858916546338590740
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1858914228624924963
When others do it:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ParlerWatch/comments/1igw3cs/elon_m...
https://x.com/jessesingal/status/1886479301081522599
(The names it includes are already in the Wired article)
In that case, yes, the OPM already “doxxes” most federal employees, even making their salary data public. It’s seen as a worthwhile tradeoff to give taxpayers transparency into how their money is spent.
These aren't low level federal employees doing menial work with the Medicare claims.
Part of the problem is we're not sure who is paying them and who ultimately they report to. Are they doing what's best for Musk and his business interests or what's best for the US? Even Altman has called out Musk in a similar fashion.
What's happening now is the exact opposite of transparency and accountability.
That's not doxxing, that's accountability of the government to the people. Doxxing is when a person is doing a participant in an online discussion group and information they haven't made public about their real world identity, etc., is made public, it is not when people are performing high level government management functions and their identity is attached to their actions.
The issue is that Elon Musk is highlighting them specifically in a negative way that will lead to very predictable, very personal, very negative outcomes without any recourse.
I see those as different in reality. We can argue that semantically they can get twisted around as the same thing (government employees getting publicly named in a critical way), but that ignores extremely relevant real-world circumstances.
But yes, there is a difference between media reporting on what high-level government officials are doing and government (or quasi-government) officials singling out low level employees for ridicule. It's the difference between punching up and punching down.
But this is not among the worst things Musk is doing, and if it were a right-wing magazine doing reporting on employees in the federal government rather than someone using their role within the government itself to do it, I might find it distasteful but would have no real qualms about it.
I do think it's bad to "doxx" people in the sense of sharing their addresses and phone numbers. But that's not what the article we're discussing does.
This article simply strikes me as normal reporting that is no different than "Treasury Secretary Bessent has hired so and so as an undersecretary for such and such, and this is what so and so has done and said in the past". These people seem to be working essentially at that undersecretary level. We always know who such people are, and we should.
- Public figures are public by influence; public servants are employees and can/should have their information revealed when necessary.
- Revelation of information of employees under public pay is not 'doxxing'. Making it seem as if it's 'doxxing' is stretching the definition, like saying someone merely touching you has committed 'violence'. Your intentional use of a more serious concept for a less serious one is misleading.
- Your private employer has no duty to the public, they answer only to the end stakeholders. In contrast, public servants must be accountable and known to the public - it's literally in their name, 'public' and 'servants'. Why you should confuse your status with that of public servants is bewildering.
I'm kind of surprised that no one has made the argument that there is something special about these individuals, the work they're doing, or the circumstances of their work. There are, after all, exceptions to the "normal rules." But the fact that no one is making this argument is, at the end of the day, quite telling.
Well at least you acknowledge your position is not motivated by law or normal judgment.
EDIT: "Wasn’t he authorized by the President, the chief executive?"
The President doesn't have the authority to do that.
One of the ways the president is limited is that the he can't authorize people to commit crimes. e.g. he couldn't instruct his AG to open an investigation into his political opponent under false pretenses in order to hurt his electoral chances. If the AG were to do that, it would be a crime. So the question isn't whether the president has authorized Musk to do something, but whether or not the president even has the power to do the thing he delegated.
And what is the power in question? It's control over spending appropriated by Congress. And that's where separation of powers comes in. Congress is supposed to control the purse strings, and the president is supposed to make sure the money is spent on the priorities of the people, taking care of prosecuting fraud and abuse. The point of giving Congress this power is to give the people a mechanism to set their priorities on how their own money is spent. It shouldn't be the case that one guy comes in and then gets to decide how to spend all our money.
But that appears to be what they are trying to do, in claiming that their cuts are all under the guise of reducing fraud and abuse. But really what they're trying to do is do an end-run around Congress. They want all the money, but they don't want to have Congress vote on it, because they don't actually have the votes to implement the agenda they want to, since Congress is so divided. So instead they're just taking the funding they have and allocating it in ways that support only the agenda items they want to see implemented.
ok, but since the investigative (FBI) and the prosecutorial (US Attorney) apparati are under the control of the executive, if the local USA goes along with Trump and against the law, the remedy is....what exactly?
In practice this is extremely unlikely because the threshold for the vote in the Senate is high enough that you'd need bipartisan consensus, and the US Constitution wasn't really written expecting the party system to exist.
The constitution gives Congress sole authority to control spending and any payments Musk stops is a extreme violation of the Constitution. I really hope this ends with Musk either in prison for life or with his US citizenship revoked and him deported back to South Africa.
https://web.archive.org/web/20250106031150/https://www.usaid...
https://web.archive.org/web/20250106124223/https://www.white...
https://web.archive.org/web/20250109103910/https://www.white...
So on page 137 it looks like Biden got congress to approve the executive branch having $86 trillion to spend over the next 10 years.
Trump and Elon want that money. Let them have it. I'd rather see it go towards taking us to Mars rather than whatever Biden was doing.
You still believe the lies that con artist Musk tells you? He isn't ever going to Mars. Tesla is never going to have FSD so good they are willing to take legal liability for accidents the way Waymo does.
Two things are true at once:
1. The rule of law is real and important.
2. The rule of law is not a magical thing that enforces itself, and many people seek to undermine it for their own enrichment, so those of us who believe #1 is correct (which is most people in the US) must understand the levers of power and use them to maintain t it.
Despite the current struggles, I think we have some real advantages in this fight. One of those is actually just capitalism. We have financialized trust in the US government, via the bond market. That trust is not entirely downstream of the rule of law, but it is to a fairly large degree. We have already seen once that an effort by the administration to squelch on its contractual obligations was quickly reversed, which was this basic mechanism at action. The worst things DOGE could do with this (illegal) control over the Treasury would be unworkable for this same reason.
There are still horrible outcomes that aren't subject to this constraint (and in my opinion, we need to reform the pardon power in order to maintain the rule of law moving forward), but it's not true that there are no constraints.
Checkmate, Justin.
Meanwhile, in the nursery the rule of law is quietly taking its afternoon nap.
What Trump and Musk are doing with DOGE and the federal payment system is in blatant violation of this separation of powers.
While it seems you are implying that is not cool, it’s actually unremarkable and common government transparency.
0: https://xkcd.com/1053/
https://cthrupayroll.mass.gov/#!/year/2025/card/1
Federal pay is already supposed to be public knowledge and is highly regulated based on role https://www.federalpay.org/. Although who knows if that's true anymore. Seems like all precedent is up in the air nowadays
I got all pissed in college when I read a magazine article about how the football coach at the state school I attended was the highest paid state employee that year. There was nothing weird about that article, and I think it's very similar to your hypothetical.
I do, ideologically, think that it's much better for reporters to focus on powerful people near the top, but I don't think it's weird to report on government employees, in general.
But even if Wired did, it still wouldn't be "doxxing", which used to imply publishing not just names but addresses and other PII (like SSNs) for non-public, non-governmental figures.
Just unfortunate that the resources are going there.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1858916546338590740
When it comes to these people specifically, they need to be publicly called out. What's happening is unprecedented and possibly illegal. I know most of the press has been bought off or strong-armed to look the other way by the new administration, but at least someone is still doing reporting.
Why? Its ok when our betters engage in such behavior and who could be better than the rich?
When some poors like "journalists" try to do this, they're just upending the system for their own gain. It would really be tolerating corruption if you just tolerated them ripping up our current system of governance just because they preferred a different set of rules. Elections have consequences and its just gauche to ignore the results like this.
Sometimes HN really confuses me.
Mocking != doxing.
Musk was horrid to do that, but it's a different thing.
"This community has been banned
This subreddit has been temporarily banned due to a prevalence of violent content. Inciting and glorifying violence or doxing are against Reddit’s platform-wide Rules. It will reopen in 72 hours, during which Reddit will support moderators and provide resources to keep Reddit a healthy place for discussion and debate."
https://old.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/
DOGE also has no legitimate need or legal right to access the federal payment system. He is in violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act and should be arrested and put on trial along with any other DOGE employee who has accessed the federal payment system.
Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA) - 18 U.S.C. § 1030:
Banning users with moderate opinions is not normal in everyday life, but is routine in many subreddits. Including users sharing opinions held by moderate democrats.
Reddit is not a community, it's a collection of communities. Each may be an echo chamber, but it's an echo chamber in its own way.
These days, all the default subs are left leaning, most are far-left leaning, which means most users have a partisan experience. This then impacts the overall makeup of the site’s userbase which cascades this bias through every other subreddit.
Sure, there are a small number of relatively low traffic communities that have held out, but they are now an insignificant proportion of the content on the site.
It’s a natural artefact of the voting systems it uses for recommending content. These tend to result in echo chambers because political extremism results in more engagement, and thus more extreme users vote more and have a larger influence on what is shown.
This is then amplified by the echo chamber effect, which distills the user base into ever more extreme positions as the moderate users find their opinions outside the evolving fringe of acceptable opinion.
The reason I class it as far-left now, even though I wouldn’t in the past, is two things:
Firstly, it is now plagued with extremist content, including calls to violence, which are tolerated by users and moderates alike.
Secondly, the opinions expressed have a left bias relative to other members of the left. There are plenty of moderate democrats, including people like Obama, who would quickly find themselves banned from many default subreddits for their more moderate tolerant opinions.
It's a very odd time. The USA is emerging into a combination of a Kleptocracy, a Kakistocracy, Autarky and Technocracy. It's like somebody's dream pivot fractured into every ocracy under the sun.
I don't have to subscribe to a belief in a conspiracy to advantage Russia, to beleive the SITUATION will advantage people who benefit from an unstable US polity.
I also don't have to subscribe to a belief it was "the plan" to believe the super-rich will ride over this wave, and pick the cream off as it floats upward. Thats what they do, all the time. This is just a particularly active milk churn and there's going to be a LOT of cream.
I myself do not find left-right divide that much useful, at least to describe this melting pot of our time.
I'm just glad we have social networks which are left-wing to bring balance to the system.
It’s a nonstop barrage of nazi labels, overblown news, and comments that “hint” at more direct involvement and violence.
It's so weird that I've even started to doubt whether most of those comments are from real people.
Now you have a huge trade war going on, he keeps threatening the soveriegnty of multiple long time allies, a billionaire has extensive access to government data (the same one that did that nazi salute), along with ICE being ramped up all in the first couple weeks of his term. Our president also ran a crypto scam that made him billions right before his term started. He also keeps joking about running for a third term and is challenging a 150 year constitutional law on birthright citizenship with an executive order. Even you have to admit that this is a lot going on compared to anything we've seen before.
Here is one example of an overblown piece of news: https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1ib9csy/donald_trum...
A lot of comments and energy were expended there. Everyone talked as if it were the end of NATO and that the U.S. was abandoning Europe. In reality, it was just a 20% reduction in force (which was the first sentence in the linked article).
On the flip side, the trade war with Canada deserved heavy criticism—and luckily, it was well covered (I count that as a win).
From the list you just shared, I don't really have a good sense of the relative severity of each and I think it's because there is no place where these topics could be discussed (even HN isn't immune as you can see from one of the comments below)
What makes it far-left are the calls for violence all over the place, and the rejection of opinions from more moderate democrats.
When even the hyper sensitive ADL can admit that musk did not do a Nazi salute, but your users cannot, you’ve become a far-left echo chamber.
I personally tried to follow all the news for a week. I tried to read the articles and research what was shared on reddit. Oftentimes my interpretation of these news wasn't nearly as dramatic as what reddit was aligning on. At the end, I figured it's too much work to double check every single piece of news, so I just stopped using reddit for some time.
Well, remaining uninformed is certainly one way to prevent hysteria.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/how-elon-musk-uses-his...
So partly orthogonal to the main left-right axis.
That’s like a frog saying the water isn’t getting warmer.
Today it is a far-left echo chamber in most large subreddits.
The process of change was gradual. Like all echo chambers it is a result of distillation, with marginal moderate users progressively leaving in response to seeing the shrinking frontier of acceptable discourse.
Writing this made me realize not just how different Reddit was, but also the issues of the time and the ways they were thought of and talked about. It's almost hard to map onto contemporary parties, policies or issues.
That doesn't mean it's OK to call for violence against them! But Wired isn't doing that. It does mean that news outlets need to report on who they are and what they're doing, even if they fear (even if they know) that third parties might issue death threats.
The way it's supposed to work is the executive sends an aspirational budget to congress that embodies his policy agenda, our representatives vote on the budget, the congress appropriates the money that we send the government to the executive branch, and then the executive branch spends that money, again, faithfully. That's the oath he took. What that means operationally is that he can't just defund things we voted for in the budget that doesn't match his political agenda. Doing so should be impeachable, because it would represent a breach of his oath. It doesn't matter that he has a different agenda, he's the president for everyone.
Since he's not doing it this way, that's why people are pointing it out as unconstitutional, and illegal.
For DOGE to be legal what it needs to operate in just an advisory capacity. It should recommend things to cut, but there has to be reasons, an auditable process, transparency, and meaningful oversight. For starters, Musk has a massive conflict of interest in that he's a recipient of government contracts. So he himself shouldn't even be part of this process without first answering to that. If we keep going down this path, the people advocating for it now will not like being on the receiving end when that level of capriciousness is directed against them.
Finally, this is not capricious, this is absolutely well considered. If you haven’t realised the government has spent vast quantities of money, printed advanced quantities of money to do it, and caused record in inflation.
It’s a fundamental matter of opinion driving the discourse - not the misappropriation of some objectively correct morality.
"They have apparently installed sofa beds in the office of the OPM."
"Government employeees in various agencies report that staffers from DOGE are turning up at this offices, plugging in servers and running "code reviews"."
"What the DOGE people seem most keen on is access to personnel records and as much information as possible about what employees actually do. According to one civil servant interviewed by DOGE personnel, the questions include, "Which of your colleagues are most expendable?""
Sounds like a scene from Office Space.
Maybe they're too deep in the Yarvin / Thield / Musk (Kool-Aid) sauce, but they should know better. This stuff will follow them for life.
Even if they escape legal consequences they could become targeted for extrajudicial killings by intelligence agencies of the US and allies.
They may seem nice and thoughtful when discussing other subjects, but when it comes to surveillance, censorship, subverting elections, or misleading the public, they think it's the most heroic possible thing. I get the impression that they think that they're heroically sacrificing their own morality for the greater good, and if you told them they'd go to hell for what they've done, they would be proud. Meanwhile, outside of that mental drama, they're collecting huge checks and have never missed a meal in their lives.
Same vibe you get from people who work in extremely polluting industries who think of themselves as lovers of nature. They're doing what is necessary to save what is possible to save. Also incidentally collecting huge checks.
More likely Trump continue to fire prosecutors that try to do their jobs upholding the literal law. No prosecution, no pardon needed.
The check on that is for Congress to impeach and remove a corrupt President from office, but that will be difficult with how many Republicans are complicit.
If they get pre-emptive Presidential pardons, nothing can be done (unless you go with state-level charges).
This news item is just one more previously-unthinkable line crossed in an unambiguous trend towards more-crazy.
___________
> "But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next."
-- They Thought They Were Free: The Germans The Germans, 1933-45* by Milton Meyer, published 1955.
So quaint. Now bribes are out in the open and no one even bats an eye. Trump coin, Trump media, never released anything about tax returns, selling merch, etc... It's comical to me that his followers think he's dismantling the deep state grifters, when he is a deep state grifter.
I have to give some credit to Trump and the media around him for being masters at the narrative. Hillary's emails and Hunter on a board of a company requires investigations and congressional involvement, but Trump and his family casually take 100's of millions if not billions in bribes and no one thinks twice.
There was no Internet, only official propaganda. Sometimes the truth leaked via the Swedish embassy or railway workers, but it cannot spread far if those who spread it are killed themselves.
But I agree that people all over the world have been docile and compliant since 2020 on all sorts of issues, so the danger is there even if it should be harder today.
This is potentially falling of the Soviet Union bad. Not that we will dissolve the union (still hopefully a very low chance) but that the system of government collapses & the various business-mafias squabble to claim what they can in the power vacuum that follows; a loss of national integrity.
Would you rather:
* 'over react' about the end of history, and be wrong (i.e. things turn out fine), or
* 'under react' and end up with a bunch of thugs in charge?
It's possible this is a situation where you're crying "wolf" when there isn't one, but given Trump's erratic mind, and the stated plans of the political right
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025
which side to you want to err of?
And with regards to "over reacting" and nothing happening: a lot of folks said Y2K was an over reaction because nothing happened, but nothing happened because people did a much reacting. That nothing burger was a success, not a sign of over reaction.
Not trying to both-sides this, but the fact that Biden did that makes it more likely that Trump will do it too. It's a terrible precedent.
Trump revives push to denaturalize US citizens
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2025/01/27/trum...
And just like DOGE, they were working in a team with older people too, but that sort of rational framing just doesn't get clicks.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United...
Also, as outsider, I would never understand US fascination with "Founding Fathers". Some folks born about 300 years ago and somehow having answers to all the questions for all the times. Back than this country was a backwater colony which barely started industrialization. Overwhelming majority of population lived out of sustenance farming and majority of trade goods were products of slave labour. I mean, it is what it is, but where this yearning for glorious past which never existed comes from? Like, life in USA became more or less good only several generations ago, after the country became giant economical winner of WW2. And it did it by investing heavily into helping allies, not building isolationist policies.
Have you read any of their writing? A lot of it is timelessly insightful and they were very intelligent men.
> having answers to all the questions for all the times
This gives away that you haven't read them, because they themselves explicitly denied having answers for all time, and stated that the government needed to evolve with the governed.
This judgement of course depends upon the standards of the observer and where in the US you look. Before the attack on Pearl Harbor, many elites in the Empire of Japan had spent time in America and came to view America as spoiled, decadent, and too soft to fight a long war.
You are exactly right. "Inexperience" just means someone younger than you.
(Note I am middle-aged)
Edit: by the way, this post isn’t off-topic. It is about the activities of the US Digital Service (now known as Doge), and the exploits of young hackers who came up through top tech companies. It has implications for information systems security, especially as it relates to Silicon Valley culture.
On one side you have a handful of arrogant young adults doing the bidding of a couple of wannabe despotic man-babies. On the other you have an entire nation made up of millions of people and with major influence over the rest of the world.
I’m having a hard time understanding why your concern lies with the former.
If only other babies could launch and land rockets. Call Musk what you want, but he is not a baby.
I'm not saying that there isn't skill involved with hiring smart people, but I don't think it's correct to act like he single-handedly invented self-landing rockets.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Manbaby
It is incredible that I have to explain this and that that is the part you object to. So you’re fine with despots, but “man-baby” is where you draw the line?
Either way, your objection makes absolutely zero difference to the point.
A man in the emotional state you described wouldn't be able to lead a company like SpaceX -- he would throw a tantrum when a rocket blows up instead of doubling down on perfecting it.
>So you’re fine with despots, but “man-baby” is where you draw the line?
I'm Russian and what's happening in the US government is your problem, we have our own problems. However, I have the respect for a man who has advanced the space industry so much even though it directly hurts my country -- in the end, we all are a part of humanity and the wars will end some day.
Clearly you haven’t been following his actions. This isn’t new. See for example when he called a rescuer a pedophile or when he told companies to not advertise on Twitter, or a myriad of other instances. You can literally search for “tantrum” with his name and find more examples than you’ll know what to do with.
> what's happening in the US government is your problem
Don’t assume everyone you talk to on the internet lives in or is a citizen of the USA.
> we have our own problems
Including a despot. Which is unfortunate. You shouldn’t wish it on anyone else.
> we all are a part of humanity and the wars will end some day.
Indeed they will. Probably because we’ll all die.
Dude, Musk founded Space X. It's because of these kinds of ridiculous comments that I find it hard to take the Left (at least the ones on the internet) seriously.
Of course it is. As it will be to go after them through the criminal justice system in years ahead. I believe OP’s point is they don’t realise the jeopardy they’re getting themselves into.
It's wild how badly Biden screwed the pooch on this one. Campaigned in 2020 on keeping Trump out of office. Not only failed at that (he's more dangerous than he would have been with a narrow margin in '20) but also blew the precedents he claimed made Trump dangerous.
Alternate history has Biden forcing the Congress and states' hands by issuing a blanket pardon for all federal inmates, effective some time in the future, unless a Constitutional amendment is ratified by X date.
In other words, there are these critically important agencies that I didn't even know existed, but they're basically the glue that holds together our democracy. Who runs these agencies is not important, what is important is that they continue to run as they have in the past and anyone looking to disrupt that should be thoroughly investigated.
Imagine someone who believes that things have not been run properly. Now imagine half the country feeling this way.
Because the people's representatives will get in the way? The pesky checks and balances of democracy?
I worry that the law will not hold them accountable.
They 100% are. This is a full blackhat attack on a nation. Did they take no ethics class? (software or otherwise)?
They will be fine.
The supremacy clause was what ultimately killed it, by being useful enough to delay cases to the point they're dead.
People say “oh, Trump will pardon them” but I wouldn’t be so sure, why does he care? Once this is done they’re not of any real use to him so it’s entirely possible he won’t waste the political capital pardoning them. Would be in character for a guy famous for not paying folks who have done work for him.
I'm sure Trump will preemptively pardon them at the end of his term anyway. My worry is that these people will never be held accountable for what they're doing.
Save your worry for things that actually matter.
While I understand why Biden did what he did there, I didn't agree with it. At the very least it sets bad precedent and allows people like you to pretend they have a "gotcha!" argument when they really have nothing.
Personally, I hope they get what's coming to them.
genuine question, not sarcastic: what specifically is blatantly illegal, violating what law?
There’s a long, long list of people who thought “Trump owes me” would be a guarantee and got a rude awakening.
they are doing what he is (in)directly ordering - they ain't going to jail following the orders of the POTUS :)
Some people are skeptical on the legitimacy of what some are calling “emergency” security clearances given by executive order[1] but there’s no evidence this is not within the bounds of the president’s power. An expedited clearance could have been granted in 48 hours but presumably the backlog has already lasted longer than that and would hamper plans for the first month in office.
[1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/01/memo...
That EO says:
Where do you see that the CSO has granted access to those specific individuals? For the record, I'm not saying they are or are not on that list, we just simply don't know. If they have not been granted security clearance then there is in fact a law that makes it illegal to access federal systems and those boys are in for some trouble.Considering that these six are almost certainly peak internet people, I can't say I entirely disagree with trying to make sure their families know what they're doing. And so those family members know who to blame if data is leaked, potentially like the bank account details stored in the treasury payments system.
Do you agree with everything your relatives do? Are you willing to be held to the same standard? If you brother/sister/son/father/uncle/nephew/whatever does something I don't like, can I publish your personal information and get an internet mob to call and threaten your employer?
I take its protection very seriously, and if I had done even a fraction of what these folks have, I would expect at minimum to be fired
I'm asking if it's what is actually being argued and if people believe that it is right.
By the same logic, it's not hard to get this place: If the sheriff won't hold a black man accountable for whistling at a white woman, then of course the white citizens must take justice into their own hands, right?
How do you think would affairs develop if the policy you defend now continues? Suppose the families of those men are "made aware of their son's actions" (i.e. they are harassed, because that's what's really going to happen).
The administration will make sure that public the has the right to know the name and addresses of the loved ones of opposition politicians and their associates. And, it may come to a surprise to you, but most crazy people with a lot of firearms generally support the administration and ruling party. Those people can harrass families with unprecedented effectiveness. They can also do much worse.
How is what you are suggesting a good idea from a purely tactical standpoint?
Somehow people feel justified in their condemnation because they don’t know what was happening in the department before and assume more was done than actually was by these DOGE employees. Note that the article has no idea of the extent of work done by each of them, the internal processes at DOGE, or the legality of these events.
At this point it’s just fear mongering with words like “coup” being thrown around and baseless accusations about the halting of payments to essential programs like Medicare, Medicaid, social security, etc. None of which have been verbally stated as a target for termination this term
But really, yeah, lets talk about questionable people creating questionable lists......
And for the important folks, we make a loud cry about even their birth certificates and birth parents, so why not this?
All sense of decorum has been burned down long ago, and hilariously, it's been burned down by the same people now pretending to complain here.
If we're gonna make it to the other side of all this, it's going to take another Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, or Roosevelt to restore any of our former dignity. And no, this one's gonna be lucky to have history consider it even a Nixon.
This doesn't seem to be a huge leap from the rationalization for "doxxing" in any other period.
We haven't yet found the leaders who will be the ones rebuilding. Maybe we have the ones who will be sitting on a charred throne claiming a burned-out husk of a throneroom in their hard-earned kingdom of ash, but not the ones who will rebuild.
So spare me the feigned morality right now, we all know no one's playing by those rules anymore.
To maintain a tolerant society, a tolerant society must be specifically intolerant of the intolerant.
Fuck the fascists.
I'm pretty sure that the article is widely linked on both sites, so to answer your question, "lots".
You can f'off with your condescending bs.
Or Musk himself: https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1858916546338590740 https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1858914228624924963
I do see this (article) as mostly retaliation though. Maybe deserved or not. Hard to tell at this point. But these people are public employees nevertheless, they never had the option for anonymity.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-21-year-old-u...
It seems to me like it really appropriate background...
Stop projecting, and stop making sweeping generalizations about HN posters.
you. I'm here because I like programming and because I have fun reading the stupid bullshit some people pass for intelligent thought around these parts.
A good read would be Survival of the Richest: Escape Fantasies of the Tech Billionaires.
That said, I don't think it matters at all. This isn't a Trump problem. Sure, he's the figurehead, but there are ample figureheads waiting in the wings, just as malleable to the alt-reich's needs. They will be more than happy to step in and allow the current dismantling of the USA to continue, and for Something Very Else to be built in its place.
Can we get back to a functioning rule of law and a limited government at the end of this? I'm... hesitant.
[0] https://medium.com/the-u-s-digital-service/the-next-chapter-...
I for one trust Mr.BigBalls to make smart and effective cuts to get our government back on track!
Btw, i wonder how many of those raiding the government offices are really DOGE people and not say Russian or Chinese agents pretending to be DOGE - if one to believe the news the security let them into the building once they threatened to call Marshals Service (social engineering DOGE style. That clearly shows couple things - 1. DOGE themselves didn't bother to get proper paperwork, clearances, etc., a "promising" start so to speak and 2. that at least the building security part of the government there got totally rotten as it failed to perform their basic duties. And the agencies' (Treasury(!), USAID,...) employees just giving their laptops and access to internal systems to the first schmuck supposedly from some DOGE - and that all after years of trainings of "don't leave your screen unlocked", "don't give sensitive info to the strangers pretending to be your higher-up or a colleague" . Really shows the effectiveness of all those trainings :)
So I actually got excited about tackling waste, and wrote this cover letter:
https://magarshak.com/resume-cover-letter.php
Little did I know this admin was going to be shutting down datasets from data.gov and other crap. I really tried to bring something positive into it, but it's just more of the same. They sidelined Vivek too.
You should have, had you done any research. This was long after Elon’s slide into anti-democratic, far right ideology. And as we now know merely weeks before he did multi Nazi salutes on stage.
This feels like people who are surprised that Trump is ticking boxes on Project 2025 despite it being out for multiple years.
There’s a pizza shop in NW DC with a basement you should investigate.
I think there are actually good use cases for blockchain and smart contracts, and DOGE was finally going to be one of them.
Have you ever optimized a slow program? How do you do that? A popular approach is with a flamegraph. It shows the hot parts of the execution; what is burning CPU cycles. If we profiled federal government, we'd find 4 big areas of spending [1]. Social security, medicare, the military, and debt interest. In our flamegraph, these are big fat sections. If you're profiling a program, would you look at this and say, "oh i'm going to spend my time optimizing this function call which takes up .01% of the execution time?" no, you wouldn't (unless you're an intern).
But that's hard, which is why elon isn't doing it. Nobody wants to cut social security because then a bunch of old people would starve to death. Same with medicare. Defaulting on our national debt would be a bad look. And god forbid we give the military less money. So where does that leave us? Even if you truly believe elon cares about making the government more efficient, the approach doesn't make any sense. In the absolute most charitable reading of it, he's just incompetent and he's doing this for show to get some widely supported easy wins (let's get rid of the penny and save $86M/y!) so people will like him. But the more realistic viewing is that he's gutting programs in order to further his own agendas, which is literally the definition of corruption.
There's a saying "don't attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence" but you don't become the richest man in the world by being incompetent. You become the richest man in the world through malice.
1. https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/feder...
A reverse Keynesian effect you could call it - where there are second-order deadweight loss effects from "NGO" grift make-work complex, rather than a synergy.
>> “We really have very little eyes on what's going on. Congress has no ability to really intervene and monitor what's happening because these aren't really accountable public officials. So this feels like a hostile takeover of the machinery of governments by the richest man in the world.”
If you want to vote, anticipate dozens of hours over several months making sure you weren't removed from the register.
Why are they so against people voting? The number of actual fraudulent vote cases prosecuted was very, very small, but the measures taken against voter fraud have been disproportionate.
Here's a study from about a year ago: [0].
Upshot is that 21% of Americans 18 and older don't have an ID that matches their name and address. Disenfranchising a fifth of Americans isn't something I'd accept.
Note also that it's 23% of Democrats, 16% of Republicans, and 31% of independents. You can see why Democrats are anti-ID-check while Republicans are pro-ID-check as a general rule.
[0]: https://cdce.umd.edu/sites/cdce.umd.edu/files/pubs/Voter%20I...
I don't know enough about US to be sure. But in any country I've lived in, the answer would be no.
It's good to be against voter suppression because voter suppression is bad, even if in theory it doesn't help "your side". One would hope that doing that work would convince some people you're on "their side", but it's quite nebulous.
How does one actually convince someone of the “rightness” of their side? It somehow starts with love your enemies, though if I say that to my more right wing friends it means capitulate to whatever the progressives want. All I know is the spirit of the age is evil.
Passing laws to make it harder to vote, and easier to challenge a persons voter registration and ballot, and then running an operative campaign to specifically target voters on the other side of the political spectrum is a bit different than "just politics". Legal, sure. Ethical, moral, fair, absolutely not.
I’m all for fairness. For example I think we should weight votes, where everyone gets one vote for each dollar of taxes they pay.
I also want to see all landlords structure rental contracts so that the renter pays the property taxes, if rent was 2k a month but there are $500 in property taxes a month, rent would become $1500 plus $500 property taxes. That way the immediate effects of voting for tax increases is felt acutely and their blame can go on themselves instead of their “greedy landlord”.
You are joking right? Honest, question, what life experiences have you had that make you think that this would be a good idea. It would effectively mean a handful of billionaires would control the country.
> I also want to see all landlords structure rental contracts so that the renter pays the property taxes
It is a free market. Outside of a handful of places with rent control, nothing is stopping them from doing that. And if you think splitting out property taxes as a separate line item will somehow make tenants think that landlords, the vast majority of whom increase their rents to the absolute maximum that the market will bear, are somehow not greedy, I think you have a pretty bad handle on what it is like to be in the renter class.
Because the GOP isn't a monolith. Lots of them are still operating under a playbook 2024 proved obsolete. Race is no longer an almost-perfect proxy for partisan affiliation [1].
[1] https://www.npr.org/2024/11/22/nx-s1-5199119/2024-election-e...
It appears to me that Trump is doing phenomenal, and my I didn’t like the other side vote for him, is turning into I kind of like him and would more actively support him. He seems like a strong president, especially compared to his predecessor, and the promise to “make America great again”, seems like it might becoming more of a reality.
If he can negotiate an end to the Ukraine war, in a relatively soonish timeframe, I will be very happy. But it’s kind of a game of chicken, a high risk high reward type gamble, that could be very dangerous and lead to worse things, so I’ll just have to wait and see.
Ultimately I read comments here and I think the “other side” is blind, which they likely think of me.
Your president has threatened war on Denmark, a close ally to my country (think your relationship with Canada until he started threatening them with war too). If I knew nothing else about him that would be enough.
I’ve been using American web hosts since the ’90s. I’m currently in the process of moving away from Digital Ocean to a European host. I’m cancelling as many other services (Netflix, Strava, etc) as possible. Not much, about $300-400 less per month from me to the US.
I’m happy I got to visit New York a few years ago.
But I appreciate dictator Trump. If they wanted to go to war with Denmark they would just crush them openly, rather than as they do today with countries who disagree with them, where we covertly undermine them to get what we want.
Though maybe I’m a bit of an enigma, I don’t think the US should’ve declared independence from Britain, and wish we still had a monarchy. Problem is kings need to be noble, which none of our politicians, including Trump, seem to be.
Oh well. Peace to you on the other side of the pond.
Mostly we pass as many laws as possible, then only enforce them when it is politically expedient.
The government in passing so many laws has made the law a joke. Maybe the right wing are the progressives now and they’re just going to tear everything down?
I’m enjoying the show. Can’t wait to see what Musk digs up.
I think most of what Trump is attempting will work out poorly, for America, Trump, and the world in general. I can't prove that and there are so many presumptions in my world view, my estimation might be incorrect.
Trump was elected. I think a lot of that support came from people who had been voting for either Kang or Kodos for years and knew the outcome of that wasn't going to be what they wanted. I believe those people know exactly what kind of person Trump is, but that Trump acting in his own self interest might cause government action that is at least not-as-bad as the alternative of a perpetual status quo.
I don't think that is the case, but I think it would be unreasonable to declare that someone who believes something different is wrong simply because I think my opinion objectively carries more weight.
I appreciate your post, and I think there is some truth to what you're saying. The problem is that... It's hard bordering on impossible for me to process what these people see good in what he's doing. I've tried, mind you, I've really truly tried. But this whole thing sounds insane to me. There is no way for me to erase the bigger picture from my mind that I get to the point... "yeah, he's doing a good job."
The second point is I feel a lot of these people are NOT arguing in good faith. If someone is not arguing in good faith, being "understanding" would just embolden them.
Honestly, this whole thing makes my head explode.
An example I like: they deport a bunch of Colombians here illegally, Socialist Colombian President refuses to let the plane land, Trump immediately says we are going to hammer them with tariffs and other things, Colombian President apologizes and says they won’t get in the way.
He is just exerting American dominance openly. He took us out of the WHO, ends the dumb climate accord. The idea that we should put our own people first.
Now it all might blow up in our face as the world gets sick of the American bully, and that will crush our empire, but I’m also ok with that, because it might be the only thing that will allow us to rebuild from the ground up.
>>> TreasuryDirect is unavailable. >>> We apologize for the inconvenience and ask that you try again later.
At least they don't force you to login with a virtual keyboard any longer.
Blocking your access to any sort of "sell my bond back" button while they do it seems prudent.
Cutting federal spending is obviously not the thing that will lead to more inflation (though tariffs certainly might, but that is not really the subject of the current discussion).
... and there's nothing anyone can do about it. Checks and balances have been neutralized.
Without a competent or impartial FBI and AG, there's literally zero chance these people will be investigated.
With a house and senate that fears the president, there will be no impeachment.
And even if they successfully manage to impeach the president, I'm 100% sure Trump will challenge it.
Yeah, buckle up and enjoy the ride. Gonna be 4 very, very long years.
“It would be my greatest honor to serve not once but twice,” Mr. Trump told an audience on Saturday. “Maybe three times.” https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/26/us/politics/trump-boundar...
That seems somewhat inverted - the elected government is creating checks and balances on unelected bureaucrats.
it's only when you get older that you see how rife this is for abuse. as a simple example, if DOGE knows influential Treasury recipients, then they could find ways to extort them. help us and you'll get your money on time. oppose us, and...
heck, I'm a treasury recipient (albeit a very small one), so if I take to X and start criticizing Trump or Musk, is my money at risk? Maybe not today but maybe within his term. Scary times.
I am wondering if that partially explains how Musk radicalized himself lately. While I like the idea of absolute free speech, it kinda falls when the powerful are retaliatory... and kinda loose with the rule of law.
While I get the idea of "the bureaucracy" having its own life sometimes getting in a way of change, and the President willing to get more done, faster. But the fact that the bureaucrats do not carring on sometimes is because they follow a due process.
Now with those young men taking the control of the $6T/yr, this is a tremendous power. Even unintentionally, a mistake could have dire consequences.
I would all be for scrutinizing what government does but you can't just go around and cut everything you don't understand within 15 minutes. And I bet they will keep the moon and Mars programs going.
Your example is pretty unpersuasive. It is already that case that "influential Treasury recipients" are called upon to "help" those in power. How else can you explain the various volte face moves by seemingly apolitical economic actors. I think the kiddos might finally be getting wise to how the game is played and how it is rigged.
If they are accessing TS/SCI information and places like SCIFs have they filled out their SF-86? Are any of them dual nationals and do they have any ties or vulnerabilities to hostile foreign states?
Basic questions given the enormous access they are being given, far beyond frankly any handful of people have generally had in US government history.
Also, they have apparently plugged in their own private server at OPM. Has this already been compromised by Chinese/ Russian agents? Has the NSA had a look?
Did the Mar-a-Lago workers who moved boxes fill out those forms?
* https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/05/25/...
* https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jul/06/surveillance...
I'm not exactly clear on the situation but if they are just doing this for free and don't have access to confidential information, I could see that potentially being the key loophole here.
I was stunned. Everyone was, I know that. It was hard to believe. The entire government, just like that. How did they get in, how did it happen?
That was when they suspended the Constitution. They said it would be temporary. There wasn’t even any rioting in the streets. People stayed home at night, watching television, looking for some direction. There wasn’t even an enemy you could put your finger on…”
- The Handmaid's Tale
Just because someone won't shut up doesn't mean they are telling you their true intentions.
He mastered the art of news manipulation and took it to the 21 century. And people are falling for it (I did too at some point). Tesla is one of the most secretive companies out there, and for a good reason. Musk is regularly saying outrageous lies, without any consequence. The FSD game has been going for 10 years. 10 YEARS.
Lookup Montana Sceptic case - the guy was exposing that Tesla was close to bankrupcy at the time (which Musk later confirmed). Musk, in all his transparency went after him, including threatening his boss.
The reality is that none of his companies are really profitable (yes I know, Tesla made some money in the past 3 years. They are valued as if they made 100x what they did), and all would be dead without government subsides.
so if by "transparent" you mean "tweets all day about crimes he is committing, but we actually dont know if hes just bullshitting", then OK, overall, not that helpful!
Over half of US was apathetic and didn't vote.
You can blame the MAGA for everything that is happening, but they literally said this is what they were gonna do. Over half of the US, implicitly said, "Given all of that, and Kamala, it really doesn't matter who is the president".
Which is worse than MAGA IMO
Not true. Voter turnout was between 59% and 64%.
Both parties engage in gerrymandering.
> Both parties engage...
Seems weird to blame the GOP and then immediately point out that this is done by everyone.
One is gerrymandering, which is drawing district boundaries to build in an advantage for your party. Both parties do that.
The other is trying to disenfranchise people. The GOP have been the ones doing most of that.
And please don't say voter ID, nobody is disenfranchised by voter ID.
Prosecuting people for innocent mistakes while voting. E.g., Crystal Mason [1]. Or Hervis Rogers [2].
In the Rogers case he was convicted of burglary in 1995 and was in prison until being paroled in 2004. His parole ended in June 2020. He didn't know that he was ineligible to vote, and voted in the Democratic primary in March 2020. The Texas legislature did pass a bill in 2007 that required the Department of Criminal Justice to notify people who had been in custody of their voting rights situation, but Governor Perry vetoed it.
Texas attorney general Paxton had him arrested and prosecuted. Bail was set at $100000. Eventually the case was thrown out because the attorney general does not have the authority to unilaterally prosecute voter cases. He has to get approval from local country prosecutors.
In nearly all these cases the prosecutors are very disproportionately prosecuting minorities and women.
Same with processes to restore voting rights for felons. See Rick Scott's handling of petitions to restore voting rights in Florida [3].
> And please don't say voter ID, nobody is disenfranchised by voter ID.
There are in fact a lot of US adults without an ID that works for their state's voter ID laws and would have a hard time getting such an ID because of cost (monetary and/or time). Here's a relatively recent report on the number who lack ID [4].
Yes, I know that most state voter ID laws require there to be no cost or fee to obtain the ID from the state but there are often significant costs to obtain the documents required to apply for the ID. Furthermore the offices that can process the application are often far away from where the people without ID live, and only accept applications during limited weekday hours. That can mean having to take unpaid time off from work and finding a way to get to that office. In reality that all can add up to over a $100.
If it was actually about election security and not intended to disenfranchise legal voters the voter ID laws would include provisions to make it easy to obtain ID without those burdens described above.
Here's a link to a comment that contains a dozen links with a lot more detail [5].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crystal_Mason
[2] https://www.texastribune.org/2022/10/21/texas-voter-fraud-ca...
[3] https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/politics/elections/...
[4] https://cdce.umd.edu/sites/cdce.umd.edu/files/pubs/Voter%20I...
[5] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42116609
So what I'm curious about is whether anyone who voted for Trump, and especially not the hard core MAGA folks but more the "The Dems suck, prices are too high" folks that shifted toward Trump in 2024 vs previous elections, are surprised/angered/scared by his actions. If so, what was their thought process?
I'm especially curious how they feel about Musk's role in all this. I just can't wrap my head around people that were "drain the swamp" nativists are cool with an unelected foreign-born billionaire having free reign, essentially unaccountably, to do whatever he wants to any federal department. If somebody told me in 2010 that this would happen in 2025 I would tell tell them that they are nuts. If the Dems had done anything 1/10th as egregious, Republicans would be apoplectic, and rightfully so.
Go on Twitter or any other site that doesn't ban a certain flavor of discourse. Observe how much glee is being expressed towards negative emotions of others (such as "libs" or marginalized people). That's the point.
I just don't understand where people even get this idea. Is it the repetition and perpetuation of it that makes so many people believe it? We are and have always been allowed to have whatever opinions we wanted on any of the regular platforms, so long as it doesn't affect the rights of others (so there's a line at racism, calling for violence, and advertising for scams for example). There has never been a "flavor ban" unless one's flavor is KKK
If only it were that simple, because that's demonstrably not true. I'll give you a perfect example that was made clear by recent events.
Before last month, it was against Meta's rules to say that being LGBT was a mental illness. Similarly, you couldn't say people had a mental illness due to their religion.
But by this point I think it should be pretty clear that, in many respects, what we define as a "mental illness" is not some hard and fast rule, it's largely what we see as beyond the norm of socially acceptable boundaries at any given time.
I am gay. For someone else to have an opinion that being gay is a mental illness is a perfectly valid opinion, and it doesn't infringe on my rights (as long as they're not advocating for locking me up or whatever). I literally see no need to prohibit people from expressing the valid opinion that my being gay is a mental illness (I may think you're an asshole, but being a jerk certainly isn't banned on the Internet).
So when Meta announced their policy change to allow more "free speech", at first I was like "Ok, cool". I only became livid when I read the policy and saw that it's still against their rules to say people in "protected groups" have a mental illness except for a specific carve out for gay and trans people. F that. So I have to pretend all of the completely absurd religious nonsense about believing some sky fairy is out there and randomly does things like performing miracles (but for some reason never obvious enough to actually be miraculous) is not a sign of mental illness, but being gay is? Yeah, free speech my ass.
Point being, in your comment you have basically made an arbitrary division between what "whatever opinions" are valid, and what counts as e.g. racism, and pretend that it's a clear line.
> racism
these are examples of flavors I'm talking about. I should have said "flavors" instead of flavor.
Basically this is a fundamental flaw of democracy, that you leave the most important decision in the hands of the median citizen, who has no particular aptitude for making it. Of course, other systems of government have their own flaws. Like Churchill said, democracy's the worst form of government, except for all the others. (Though I would argue that the particular structure of the American democratic system is especially flawed.)
That's not the perception I have. Between changing opinions 180° for no discernible reason (besides reports/speculation of money changing hands, but it's not given as the reason so that's hardly transparent) and most actions being in the short-term interest only of himself, it doesn't strike me as though everyone is aware that voting for him is going to make their future worse (exceptions may include some of the ultra rich affected by the same short term gains as himself). What I hear on this side of the pond is that he also e.g. denies knowing the people who wrote project 2025 and the plan being ridiculous, then (I checked Wikipedia to see what came of it) "nominated several of the plan's architects and supporters to positions in his administration" and it was found that "nearly two-thirds of his executive actions 'mirror or partially mirror' proposals from Project 2025." (Wikipedia, last paragraph of article lede on project 2025)
I'm curious how you see it, since you might be more into USA politics than me (most people are). Doesn't he change opinion most of the time and am I just hearing of the exceptions? Are his denials regarding project 2025 seen as obvious lies and thus deemed transparent that this open-secretly is the plan known to everyone? Or do you see it this way for another reason?
But my point is that behavior is completely predictable at this point, and if anyone is shocked by what he's done so far, they haven't been paying attention. Stuff like:
1. His extreme narcissism, and the fact that loyalty is a one-way street with him.
2. His desire for revenge
3. 0 respect for any governmental norms
4. His ability to bend (or break) the law to suit his needs. Since the Supreme Court granted him complete immunity for any official acts, and since it's so obvious that Congress are completely feckless at this point, he is essentially unconstrained by law.
When you ask "Are his denials regarding project 2025 seen as obvious lies and thus deemed transparent" I would say absolutely. But of course, when people are angry about the direction of things, they tend to want to believe the stuff they want to believe ("Trump will get in there and shake things up!") and minimize the things they don't ("Trump will shut down programs and departments I depend upon").
Many works of fiction provide political commentary.
There's no actual invisible hand of the free market either, just some pop-culture metaphor by some Scottish guy.
3 reasons come to mind -
1. There's a vast and profound difference between trimming inefficiencies ("cutting waste") and eliminating a valuable function. It's throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
2. This entire administration and its main actors have given zero reason to assume what they are doing is in good faith. In fact, quite the opposite they have incited worry that their motivations are not honest.
3. They are doing this with a shocking lack of oversight, on their own terms.
2. What type of actions/behaviors would lead you to believe this is being done in good faith? That seems somewhat hard to demonstrate when the other side almost universally assumes you never do anything in good faith.
3. This is the fault of our government structure since always and specifically our Congress over the last many decades, which has ceded more and more of the actual running of government to unelected civil servants who technically fall under the umbrella of the Executive branch. If we wanted to prevent things like this from being done, we should've had an actual civil service ala the UK, which although it falls under their Executive branch, it is not unilaterally controlled by it (e.g. the Civil Service Commission prevents the PM from just doing whatever he wants).
As a secondary note, oversight in this case seems somewhat hard to achieve, given the usual problem of "who watches the watchers?" If you think some part of the government is performing poorly and that this is systemic, who do you trust to provide oversight that might not themselves have ulterior motives to preserve the status quo?
This is perhaps the single biggest disconnect I see between Democrats and Republicans right now. To Democrats, Trump is "the man who attempted a self-coup", and everything he does is viewed in that light. Whereas Republicans seem to think that it just wasn't a big deal that Trump tried to overturn the 2020 election.
There were all sorts of bad intentions on the part of the rioters/coupers/whatever on January 6th, but AFAIK there is very little evidence to indicate these people were directed by Trump in any meaningful way.
In short: Framing this as "cutting waste, fraud, and abuse" is assuming good faith, but given Trump's history, he doesn't deserve a presumption of good faith.
(Secondary to that: There's a difference between "cutting waste, fraud, and abuse" versus "shutting down entire functions of government without a replacement". Look at Musk trying to shut down USAID, for example. If Musk wanted to "cut waste, fraud, and abuse", that would mean "reforming USAID to achieve the same outcomes while spending less money". Instead, Musk is proposing to eliminate USAID entirely. Even if not for the self-coup angle, that's clearly not just "cutting waste, fraud, and abuse". Foreign aid is established by Congress, and only Congress has the constitutional authority to eliminate that aid.)
There also happens to be lots of historical precedent to this kind of aggressive purges that aim to install loyalists in government, not least Germany in 1933.
(Nazis also made a big deal out of stopping “sexual deviants.” Studies of trans people and their history were the first books they burned. And now the CDC in USA is removing that information everywhere they can. A strange coincidence.)
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1886533392105177183
It’s not a get-out-of-jail card if you’re just crunching some numbers while following illegal orders.
If we were really concerned about waste, the first and only place to look is the $1T+ we spend every year on the military.
And yet, the average life in US has gotten better and better under democratic rule, while worse under republican rule.
The problem with people like you is that you are so bought into a narrative of "government bad" that any sort of mistake or non optimal that the government does is seen by you as corruption.
And then when you have people like Musk, Rogan, Hotz, and other prophet wannabes that amplify that messaging, it solidifies that in your mind and you move become farther and farther from reality, until you are solidly in MAGA land where anything liberal is automatically bad, even if your side does the exact same thing.
There is a shitload of government bloat and inefficiencies, but these things need to be trimmed over a long period of time, not by Musk style of breaking things without giving a fuck about what he breaks.
When you see all the smart people like Musk, Hotz, Andreesen, Ackman, getting involved and changing their minds, maybe it's time to reconsider your priors too.
this line got me to laugh aloud, congrats
So, he's already announced you'll be paying 10-25% tax on all imported goods moving forward, and that he'll personally loot the revenue.
What a coincidence! I think exactly the same about you!
What are you trying to argue anyway?
Yes, I've read it, excellent book.
> What are you trying to argue anyway?
That "life imitates art" is not a generally true statement.
I think they are perfect for tracing down what has been going on and finding where inefficiencies and/or corruption has been occurring. Anyone who has issue with rooting out corruption and inefficiency isn't in the right.
Of course what is done with what they find will not be in their hands.
I've worked on billion dollar defense projects, and have supervised plenty of smart junior consultants from top consulting firms (McKinsey, etc.) - guiding them through processes, while they're digging through data.
Believe it or not, but you don't know what you don't know, and domain expertise is absolutely crucial. Slashing things you think are inefficiencies can lead to some serious footguns.
And I fully expect Musk to value speed over precision.
Finding out corruption and inefficiency is fine, but I think a lot of people are skeptical that that's the actual goal of this "advisory board". How likely is it that Elon is going to find anything inefficient about SpaceX? Tesla? What's to stop him from using this data to haggle better deals from the government paying for his projects?
It's entirely possible that SpaceX is efficient enough, but it's still a conflict of interest. I don't think a guy who owns and runs a company that competes on government contracts should be in charge of determining which parts of the government is efficient.
I read through your past comments. It's obvious to me what you believe. And I don't agree with your worldview but not sure that matters. If you don't like Musk and don't like Trump, fine, I get it. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't like either of them in person either, and, they both have vested interests on that we can agree. You know who else has vested interests? The people benefiting from waste, fraud and abuse. The people who have been directing public funds into propaganda and a black hole. I'd like to see western civilization persist. If you feel differently that's a value judgement and it's fine. But hearing kveltching and ridiculous statements from liberal midwits on every single policy article is getting really really old and it's shitting up this site. This is what is going to happen. And it's long overdue.
I have some less polite ways of saying this so I'll keep to myself, but that seems like a profoundly ignorant viewpoint. There are 330 million Americans, and the only person that could possibly find government inefficiency is a guy with extremely clear and obvious conflicts of interest? Ridiculous, I do not believe that you actually believe that.
I personally think that it is extraordinarily stupid to get someone who routinely gets government contracts to be in charge of determining what is "efficient". I personally wouldn't choose any active CEO, but even if you believe that somehow a businessman is going to be better, couldn't you choose a CEO that doesn't have federal contracts? Even if it was a conservative, even if it were someone who I absolutely despised, it would still be a better choice than Elon Musk. I genuinely cannot think of a worse choice for this project than Elon, honestly.
My distaste for Trump and Musk has nothing to do with whether I'd "like them in person". I already dislike most people and I am quite confident I would not like any politician if I met them in person. I do not make my political decisions based on "how much I would like hanging out with them".
I think Trump and Elon are profoundly stupid people, and they're kind of a match made in heaven, which I find very dangerous.
"Western Civilization persisting" shouldn't start with an dubiously-legal "department" with clear conflicts of interest. This shouldn't be controversial.
Because the only reason they are doing it is because they don't know enough about their legal exposure to know they should not. They aren't qualified to handle this data. I thought the whole thing was we were going to have a meritocracy.
So far, that's not what DOGE appears to be doing. Rather than "rooting out corruption and inefficiency", DOGE appears to be cutting government spending that Musk disagrees with.
And that's unconstitutional! The executive branch doesn't have the constitutional authority to unilaterally cut a program established by Congress. If Congress allocated $X billion for foreign aid to country Y, the executive branch must disburse that aid.
Furthermore, speaking of corruption: Both Trump and Musk have major conflicts of interest. Prior to Trump, presidents were expected to divest business interests and put their assets in a blind trust; but Trump refused to do so. And SpaceX is a major federal contractor; if the head of a major federal contractor is _also_ the biggest supporter of the incoming president, the conflict of interest is obvious.
As you said, anyone who has an issue with rooting out corruption isn't in the right. So surely you're alarmed by these conflicts of interest, right? Don't you agree that Musk should either fully divest from SpaceX, or step away from politics?
He cannot enter certain facilities or meetings at SpaceX because of that.
Yet now he is bypassing that requirement.
None of these people are elected or confirmed by the Senate and they are doing extremely sensitive things to the government
That's not how any of this is supposed to work by law.
https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/04/15/when-is-for...:
"U.S.A.I.D. was created in 1961 to help the United States win the “hearts and minds” of citizens in poor countries through civic action, economic aid and humanitarian assistance. As a cold war policy tool, the agency was, at times, used as a front for C.I.A. operations and operatives. Among the most infamous examples was the Office of Public Safety, a U.S.A.I.D. police training program in the Southern Cone that also trained torturers."
> The information about USAID’s development and humanitarian assistance programs is intentionally open and public; to perform the agency’s mission, USAID employees work directly with non-government organizations, contractors, United Nations organizations and host country governments. However, in order for USAID employees to effectively and efficiently carry out the agency’s programs, they often must have access to sensitive and sometimes classified information provided by other federal departments and agencies. Such information may pertain to U.S. foreign policy and relations as well as security conditions and threat data.
If it wasn't, he made it real. Elon is the deep state. An unelected individual who has set up a no-oversight machinery with hands on the levers of state power, and using them to his own ends, independent of public benefit. Every accusation is a confession.
That he's (apparently) tasking people to do so who don't even have the requisite experience or clearances is just adding insult to injury.
I'll then leave a comment here about a guy that knew a guy that heard from another guy that Elon almost ruined a company his aunt worked at.
https://youtu.be/qe47hTyUh5g?feature=shared
JFC, I was a complete dumbass in my 20s.
If they work for the government, how is what they are doing illegal?
These people have not all been vetted, hired, and granted security clearances appropriate to the level of access they've obtained.
All of this is illegal.
> On Sunday, CNN reported that DOGE personnel attempted to improperly access classified information and security systems at the US Agency for International Development (USAID), and that top USAID security officials who thwarted the attempt were subsequently put on leave. The AP reported that DOGE personnel had indeed accessed classified material.
It's attracted a lot of attention that killing USAID has been such a high priority for these guys despite only being 1% of the budget and having a seemingly innocent humanitarian mission. But what's USAID doing that involves classified data? Distributing humanitarian aid shouldn't require any information whose disclosure would seriously disclose national security, should it? Presumably this means USAID has been used as cover for covert operations around the globe.
Paranoid conspiracy theory? Maybe, but it's also a well-known fact; see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Agency_for_Int...:
> William Blum has said that in the 1960s and early 1970s USAID has maintained "a close working relationship with the CIA, and Agency officers often operated abroad under USAID cover. (...) From 2010 to 2012, the agency operated ZunZuneo,[199] a social media site similar to Twitter in an attempt to instigate uprisings against the Cuban government. Its involvement was concealed in order to ensure mission success. The plan was to draw in users with non-controversial content until a critical mass is reached, after which more political messaging would be introduced. At its peak, more than 40,000 unsuspecting Cubans interacted on the platform.[199]
(There's a lot more there. Check it out if you haven't heard of this.)
So, if it's been a key part of the US's overseas covert operations for decades, why did it go into the wood chipper in a weekend? Did Elon Musk just fail to realize its importance to the US's worldwide influence?
With no evidence beyond the above, I think USAID was targeted because it's been a nucleus of the Intelligence Community's resistance to Trump consolidating his power.
Will there be some protests? Sure. Nothing will come of it, though. The only thing that will enact any real change is if big corporations start losing any profits due to all this upheaval, in which case they may put pressure to get things settled down.
Only something like 3% of the population needs to actively strike and protest to start affecting corporations.
I don't care about non-voters. If they don't care enough to vote, they're not worth considering when we try to assign "blame" for the current situation.
The American public voted for this, full stop.
just imagine how insecure and fucked up their solutions will be? waiting for the S3 bucket that has global read permissions on a literal "select * from usa_citizens" dump of data.
Really, all this article says is that if you are an auditor for the commission appointed by the president, we will make sure that this comes up in an aggressively negative way when somebody who you want to work for googles you. It's pure intimidation, masquerading as journalism. It's somehow worse than Bill Ackman hiring trucks with the names of college students protesting a genocide being blasted as antisemites. At least Bill Ackman isn't pretending to be a journalist.
edit: every single article by this "disinformation expert" has been an anti-Trump or anti-Musk article. She has no other beat.
You just archeologically unearthed the dictionary definition of accountability. If the people doing the auditing are a goon squad from corporate, what reasonable person should accept their results?
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
It's more a question of the article. What we're looking for includes: is the article not too repetitive of recent discussions? does it contain significant new information? is there a reasonable chance that it could support a substantive, thoughtful discussion, or is it too flamebaity/provocative? that kind of thing.
Here's a subthread from yesterday where I went into this in depth: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011. Past explanations: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que....
If anyone has a question that isn't answered at those links, I'd be happy to take a crack at it.
(Of course, I could just be misunderstanding how flagging works on the site... maybe the state machine has to transition in order from regular -> [flagged][dead] -> [flagged] after vouching?)
If a post is flagkilled w/ comments disabled, then you can typically vouch.
You can also email moderators at hn@ycombintor.com to request unflagging. I do that occasionally, with mixed results. (I've come to know which are long shots, and typically concede the point, but at least make the attempt.)
I didn't see much misuse of vouching in your recent history so I've removed that penalty from your account now. But please make sure that the comments you're vouching for are respecting the site guidelines (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).
You're keen on reviewing a user's recent history, but provide no corresponding transparency to the user on what you've done.
HN works best with informal systems, not formal ones. The informal contract around transparency is: people are welcome to ask questions and we always answer them, but we don't formally publish a moderation log or anything like that (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).
You're already removing the ability of users to vouch. That frog is boiled.
I'm saying tell them on their user page. Include a line that only they can see which says "can no longer vouch" or similar. That way they know what's happened instead of having to guess what's happened.
I didn’t realize the vouch link doesn’t show up in the main threads.
It's in the guidelines that politics is not on topic here
As JWZ put it:
"A venture capital company's fan club, finance-obsessed manchildren making the world worse"
Slightly NSFW source: https://cdn.jwz.org/images/2024/hn.png
Care to revise your view?
But thanks for the kind reply—I confess I was expecting something else!
Edit: incidentally, (and not directing this at you personally!), if even one of the commenters spending their time complaining about flags on HN had let us know about this submission at hn@ycombinator.com, this would probably have happened earlier. I say "probably" because I haven't processed all the emails from the last 12 hours yet.
- Include the post item in your subject line. That would be "42922647" for this particular story.
- Include some idea of what the problem is. For example, for a flagged story I'd have "vouch" as the first word of my subject, followed by the article title.
- I typically include the full article link (in body) and title (in subject) as insurance against my own fat-finger-fumbling.
- A brief description of the problem. E.g., "I'd like to vouch for this article".
My own typical emails are for titles (frequent), link indirection, preferred sources, and occasional mentions of flagrant violations of HN comment guidelines (flagging tends to pick those up most of the time).
For the latter, you can use the "replies" endpoint to see if a mod has previously responded to a given userID, e.g.:
For dang replying to me: <https://news.ycombinator.com/replies?id=dredmorbius&by=dang>
(Yes, there's an admonishment in there if you dig back far enough, and I remember it.)
I haven't been flagging these topics, but I have defended those who do, on the grounds of "not politics" and "leads to flamewar discussions". On the politics front, you have deliberately allowed more politics recently (or at least that's my perception) when you thought it was of general interest, or of tech interest. But the discussions are, perhaps less flame-full than expected, still somewhat incindiary (not least the discussions around flagging, with accusations up to being full-on fascists aimed at those who just don't want HN to be overrun by this).
So: What made it clear to you that this was something that should not be flagged?
<https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...>
It may have come to your attention that 1) there's been a fair bit of political activity of late 2) with impacts on YC, startups, and many of HN's readers, and 3) involving some notable individuals within the tech world.
Much of that argues to facilitate some discussion of at least a sampling of these stories. And this particular item has garnered a large number of both votes and comments. Slightly over the "flamewar" threshold (> 40 votes, comments > votes), but not in the extreme. The flamewar-detector heuristic is surprisingly accurate (I've gone through much of HN's front-page archive a couple of years ago), but not perfect. High-profile political discussions are among the more notable exceptions. Self-discussion of HN is the other (and AFAIR the most highly-ratioed high-placed story was one such item early in HN's life).
Personally I would rather the article had been more neutral and more informative, but beggars can't be choosers.
Btw, you do realize that not all politics is off topic on HN, yes? I'm pretty sure you must have seen some of my explanations about this over the years, but if not, please take a look at some of https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so....
All of the following can be (indeed are) true at once: (1) most political stories are off topic here; (2) we don't want the frontpage to be dominated by politics; (3) some political stories are on topic; (4) significant and interesting things are going on right now, even though it's hard for most people to stay curious about them.
Have I clarified sufficiently?
That is, for the moment. You're trying to walk a balance, and I tend to drift, over time, off on one side or the other.
> What we're looking for includes: is the article not too repetitive of recent discussions? does it contain significant new information? is there a reasonable chance that it could support a substantive, thoughtful discussion, or is it too flamebaity/provocative?
This article is a personal attack on individual engineers that are evidently very talented.
There's now a bunch of people using HN for personal insults in the comments.
I think the flags were warranted and turning them off was unnecessary.
But I would still maintain that this site's culture reflects the Silicon Valley finance culture it came from, and it's not a pretty culture.
Contentious topics, regardless of how merited a discussion might be, tend to draw flags inordinately. But again, you generally can't blame mods for this.
(HN does systemically penalise, or outright ban, numerous sites. I strongly doubt Wired is in either category, though if you want to know for certain, you can email mods. For a number of fairly evident reasons the full list isn't publicly disclosed, though pg provided some lists and extracts early in HN's histoyry, notably <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=499044> and <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4984095>. There were 38,719 banned sites as of the end of 2012, a number which has doubtless increased.)
<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37130147>
There's no two ways about it.
Sigh...
I used to think people were over-doing it in their criticism of Trump – I thought he was dreadful, but ultimately a contained / containable force. I was even a little optimistic that he might be a disruptive force (inadvertent) that would make other politicians return their focus to everyday, working class concerns.
I was naive and stupid. And many people are kidding themselves even now about what's going on. There's nothing normal or business as usual about what's happening in America right now. I'm not qualified to predict where this all ends, but I don't think any of it's good and I don't think this ends after Donald Trump's second term.
To the people thinking DOGE is about cutting "wasteful spending", I can only shake my head. What will it take for people to see clearly what's right before them?
No, you weren't. People on every angle of this are tired of the government not working. It's easy to have that glimmer of hope that maybe he really will make a good change. The problem is, he's a salesman - a grifter. His art is to latch onto that glimmer of hope and sell you on it while never delivering on it.
As the saying goes, "I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people."
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Agency_for_Inter...
I have never seen a genuine person end a request like this. It's always to bait someone.
Besides, maybe everything is fine and the Muskovites are right.
Some people hold conservative views, some liberal and others a mix. People have "tribes", but that's not what this is about.
What is happening is not good if you view rule of law and liberal democracy as being good things.
Isn't that well established precedent that's been going on for a long time?
Also if you believe it's not constitutional it still doesn't make sense how it can be a "coup".
> Now, if Trump tried to fire him but he somehow still maintained his power within the government then that would be a coup.
I still think this is what will happen.
Agreed, but we won't hear about it, a failure of that kind would never make it to the public's awareness.
Edit: or perhaps one could say restate-and-reinforce. I think that's (edit: well, might be) largely the function of adding snark and indignation to internet comments.
You’re not really offering any insight into why or how you reached the conclusion that you posted. As a user on the outside, it sure looks like the site structure has begun to buckle in the wind.
Edit: there's a shorter version at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42922234 and two much longer ones at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42911011 (including a later reply). If you (or anyone) read those and still have a question that isn't answered there, I'd be happy to take a crack at it.
I second the suggestion to have some sort of metathread, stickied comment on hot political threads, or other consolidated way to present your collected thoughts so that a larger number of users see it and can benefit. Like you said, the winds are blowing hard, and you might go a long way to quelling the moderatorial waters by addressing the whole site as a collective.
Somehow, no matter how often we repeat something, the set of users who hear it always has measure zero (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25787443). That's why I mostly stick to answering specific comments with detailed explanations, and hope that at least some other users will see it.
There should be a name for the effect.
It's what's happened across Reddit, Twitter, and Facebook over the past decade. You've all built platforms intended for social discourse but instead built extremely brittle systems subject to gamified manipulation by showing people which opinions reward and punish them. And those are then manipulated at-large by outside groups responsible for elevating a particular way of thinking about a given topic.
Conversations do not need a algorithmic popularity mechanism.
Edit: some of these points can be refuted by data though (albeit not public data, which means people have to take our word for it, which many are understandably reluctant to do). For example, flaggers of these stories are by and large longstanding community members who have participated for years on HN in lots of threads about lots of topics, etc. That doesn't prove they're not flagging at the behest of outside groups, but it does make it unlikely.
See some of you on the other side but it won’t be here. I’m out.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13672813
> Balaji then revealed his shocking ideas for a tech-governed city where citizens loyal to tech companies would form a new political tribe clad in gray t-shirts. “And if you see another Gray on the street … you do the nod,” he said, during a four-hour talk on the Moment of Zen podcast. “You’re a fellow Gray.”
> The Grays’ shirts would feature “Bitcoin or Elon or other kinds of logos … Y Combinator is a good one for the city of San Francisco in particular.” Grays would also receive special ID cards providing access to exclusive, Gray-controlled sectors of the city. In addition, the Grays would make an alliance with the police department, funding weekly “policeman’s banquets” to win them over.
-- https://newrepublic.com/article/180487/balaji-srinivasan-net...
That HN is for stuff not discussed in the news is basically disproven daily. The other thing I keep hearing that "if we allow this, the front page would be only about politics", I don't believe it anymore. It's like the stone that keeps tigers away. People may genuinely believe in that stone and that they're guarding the village, but I think it's bull and having to entertain this superstition takes up more resources than the occasional tiger attack would.
I know disabling flags is probably not feasible, since real spam does get posted. but we have "showdead" for comments, why can't we simply have the same option for threads? Then those who want to discuss these things can do it, at the price of also having to wade through actual spam. Anybody else would be unaffected. If the goal is not to suppress awareness and discussion, that can be very easily proven with such a feature, and the best time to implement it would have been a long time ago IMO.
But it wasn't my intent to claim you run HN like this either way; but I'm making the educated guess that people who think the above isn't mad, but quite exciting, would be both likely to use this site, and prone to abuse flagging to suppress discussion, and/or awareness of the article that would be discussed.
That was never the situation.
> how many Musk stories do we need in one day? However many the number is, we're past it.
So the number is zero. Having one story for each major separate event is one story too many. This is still what it is. The longer the rationalizations for it get, the more sad it gets.
You should Ask Musk to cool down then. We didn't vote him in. We didn't ask him to break the law and compromise american security. We didn't grant him access to the US treasury. "We" voted this in. Those who didn't want this are 3 months too late.
And I see this excuse on every platform. I see a story I don't want to engage with... I just move on. Maybe you browse new, but I've never seen politics be "the dominant topic on HN".
Is this a technology equivalent to burning the libraries of old? Once the data is gone, come on, do you think any reasonable efforts will be made to restore it? Frankly speaking, is the course DOGE taking a mandate by the people to be enacted by representatives in the government or is it vice-versa, that "we are changing your society whether you like it or not" is the fundamental principle.
Then again, I just got out of jail after a year on a made-up Terroristic Threat charge politically motivated, so my perspective is likely skewed regarding motives and actions of those who have unchecked power at their disposal.
To make the objections folks have here plain: these employees literally do not have the security clearance required to access the data they’re looking at. What they are doing is illegal.
Why just young people? If an old person does it then it's ok? I think GP is wrong about this, but you're inadvertently proving GP's point and making me wonder if maybe there is some ageism going on...
I would hope that most people recognize that different standards for people by age are not ok, but that isn't the same as different standards for different levels of experience and qualification.
We all lived through it. We experienced it. It happened. Go gaslight somewhere else.
> Not for dry-humping Space Karen.
You're relatively new here, you should read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
What information in the article is inaccurate and how did you verify its inaccuracy?
Rules for thee, but not for me. Smells very musky.
No, I have not personally insulted you.
> Smells very musky.
You should read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I'll wait for the movie.
The only person that can revert that is a mod.
(I also edited the title to be a bit more neutral.)
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/dec/21/curtis-yarvi...
At any rate ISTM that "Wild in the Streets" and "Logan's Run" weren't instruction films.
Very possible too. I'll add that young people have less to lose, or so in their mind. In contrast, a grown-up will have family, kids, and their own pride to take care of. Tons to lose.
As for history, I'm sure there were many counter examples. It's just that I couldn't think of any. The examples I had in mind were Aung San Suu Kyi, Wang Ching-wei, and Thabo Mbeki. Wang's story is particularly interesting. In his youth, he showed remarkable courage when he attempted to assassinate a Qing's royal prince, facing death with heroic resolve. Before his expected execution, he even composed a famous farewell poem. However, in his later years, he underwent a dramatic transformation, becoming a puppet leader for the Japanese invaders. He steadfastly maintained that Japan would emerge victorious and that China's resistance was futile.
Buddy, get real.
Reminds me of this submission here (ironically) asking advice on dealing with negative comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42445820
---
I actually just looked up the arguments against Direct File, and the Republicans who oppose it argue that the IRS has no incentive to make sure that you pay the least taxes possible, while third parties do (in order to win your business). I believe this relies on the assumption that the tax code is so complicated that not even the IRS knows what you owe, what with all the special exemptions, tax discounts, etc. and therefore it takes a market to incentivize doing the work to navigate the tax code to get the biggest discount possible.
My reply to that would be that what this really means is that the tax code is too complicated, and keeping the market involved is killing the incentive to simplify it. If it were too simple, TurboTax et al. would go out of business. If Direct File were instituted and people found that they were charged more than they should owe, then this is a pressure to simplify the tax code so that the IRS can definitively tell you the minimum taxes you should pay.
What's your take on it?
I do think the tax code is too complicated, but don’t think that’s a conscious choice by some government official or office. It’s a result of small changes by many generations of people over long periods of time. It does seem like it could be simplified, yet the IRS also seems to know how much most people owe because it’s reflected in forms like W-2s and 1099s and such. So maybe they should just send most people a transmission telling them how much the IRS thinks they owe, and provide the refund or a bill accordingly, and whoever disagrees with the assessment can file.
> One underlying motive of the settlement pattern was to change the demographics of the Eastern Province, and it was clearly UNP policy laid down by JR and energetically implemented by Gamini. In Systems H and C 90% of the settlers were Sinhala and 10% Muslim – there were no Tamils although the land was in the Eastern Province, a majority Tamil province.
It's one of the many dark parts of our history.
By this point you could have just googled this yourself, I’m left to wonder why you’re making me do it for you. It’s not a secret.
Please tell me what you have against USAID.
The idea that a bunch of yokels working for lulz could tear down and rebuild a system better is daft.
every junior engineer talking to a senior when the code is mildly complex:
yes, existing government systems are insanely complex - that’s part of the problem! the essential complexity is not higher than that of a brain-computer interface, or an interplanetary rocket.
we don’t even know what these kids’ mandate is (also disappointing). but if your general premise is “smart outsiders who are good at engineering are always the wrong people to rework complex, inefficient systems,” i’d like to think you’re on the wrong site.
The people involved in this are not qualified or capable in _any_ manner to be doing what they're doing. They are sycophants.
Worse, it's putting an entire nation in jeopardy.
This isn't "smart, young spirits defy all odds and save the day!" it's really "hitler youth comes in and starts thrashing about until daddy gets his way."
But the stakes are much higher in what they're touching. And the way they're being brought in is selecting for loyal sycophants, nothing else. If they disagree musk will axe them in seconds.
Yeah, and why don't we build concentration camps again? They're super efficient in term of work per unit of food. Colonies are also super nice, lots of free stuff!
Some people should open history books, life isn't about refactoring everything, making things as simple as possible, &c. It would be comical if it wasn't the very first thing you learn as an engineer
If you think a rocket is more complex than hundreds of years of infinitely complex people making decisions and compromises through democracy you're completely out of touch with reality, and if you genuinely think we can just burn it all down because some nerd unilaterally thinks he found a better way to do it you're just plain dumb.
Sorry, but that's such an absurd comment. These kids don't even know anything about rocket building, let alone they're able to build a rocket from first principles. Second, the US government is much more complex than a rocket; it cannot be understood by a single person. Third, you can waste rockets, but a whole nation depends on one goverment. You can't just experiment with it. Fourth, there are lives at stake. It's not just a payload, or one or two astronauts who know what they signed up for, that are at their mercy.
People under 55 should be happy about this situation.
Suddenly the left is all concerned about doxxing or unelected bureaucrats in government.
Truthfully politics in America is not about any moral compass - it’s about individual preference to see certain political ideas win or lose.
Instead of pretending politics is based on a set of moral issues, just accept that it’s a set of opinions. Some simply like certain causes, people, or businesses more than others do.
> Most governments don’t want USAID funds flowing into their countries because they understand where much of that money actually ends up.
> While marketed as support for development, democracy, and human rights, the majority of these funds are funneled into opposition groups, NGOs with political agendas, and destabilizing movements.
> At best, maybe 10% of the money reaches real projects that help people in need (there are such cases), but the rest is used to fuel dissent, finance protests, and undermine administrations that refuse to align with the globalist agenda.
> Cutting this so-called aid isn’t just beneficial for the United States; it’s also a big win for the rest of the world.
Their funding has been hard for Congress to vet, and it seems like they do some shady things. Kudos to Elon and his team for cutting us more than $1b/day so far!
Now, if Elon wanted to review spending allocations and recommend cuts to Congress, that would be fine. I would be in favor of that, provided he accessed the data in a legal and privacy-respecting way.
the money they give away tends to fund extremism and terrorism, and never goes to where it's needed
- Haiti: Post-2010 earthquake, $1.14 billion was spent on a port and power plant project promoted by President Bill Clinton. The project never built anything. - Cuba: A 2006 audit showed $74 million in “democracy promotion” funds vanished without oversight. - Afghanistan: Millions squandered on health scams; hospitals never built. - Nigeria: Chemonics, a major USAID contractor, was linked to a subcontractor's overbilling scandal. Hundreds of millions lost. - COVID 19 Funding: USAID sent over $40MILLION in taxpayer money to a scientist located in Wuhan to do gain of function mutations. This directly led to the creation and release of COVID-19 - $2.5 MILLION to DEI in Serbia - $70,000 onan Irish DEI musical - $47,000 on transgender operas in Colombia - $32,000 on a trans comic book in Peru - Iraq: $20M for an Iraqi version of Sesame Street to promote LGBTQ Agenda - Egypt & Tunisia: $56M for “tourism” - Jordan: $40M for “schools” - Vietnam: $11M to fight “trash burning” - Central America: $27M for deportee gift bags. - Trump Lawfare: $27M to fund left wing prosecutions of populist political opponents around the globe, including Donald Trump. Patently illegal.
Before destroying an entire organization, it’s important to know their true impact and how much it’ll hurt to have them gone. So far, I’ve seen zero evidence that deep thought or analysis went into these decisions. In other words, it’s objectively a careless decision. If it’s not careless, then Elon should be sharing evidence, lengthy discussions on his decisions, etc. Plus, there should be a public comment period because Elon sure as SHIT doesn’t have enough context to understand the full impact.
I, for one, do not like the fact that the richest man in the world, who still owns multiple companies in conflict with our government, gets to unilaterally make these decisions with no input from the public. Not only is it undemocratic, it’s objectively corrupt! You know, that thing where we expect our federal decision makers to not have severe conflicts of interests?
So no, don’t fucking give kudos for shit like this. And a single tweet from one president isn’t enough to justify decisions of this magnitude.
If those allegations are true, sure, reform or shutter the department. But do it democratically. Move fast and break shit is not the correct problem solving model to apply to geopolitics or even federal policy, and it’s absurd that this isn’t self evident.
I have to prove my impact every 6 months as an engineer. I expect an entire organization can do the same - the fact there is not a clear impact people can point to speaks volumes.
Every right-wing comment on this page is just asserting stuff. There's no information in any of them. No attempts to educate or inform. No breakdown or analysis of what USAID does and the cost-benefit of shutting them down.
Try doing a little research and writing a paragraph on what USAID does and the pros and cons of shutting them down. It would be good for you.
You can't reform an institution that's filled with your political opponents when they aim to sabotage you. Many federal employees worked to sabotage Trump in his first term, and how that he has such a strong mandate from the voters he's going after the people who sabotaged him so that the country doesn't destroy itself in a debt spiral.
Re-think your approach.
It's pretty much what the name indicates. A new medicare.
I think there are huge benefits when you put together a team of people that usually don't have distractions like kids, intimate relationships, health problems etc that can hinder productivity.
Even more beneficial to a team when you combine the wisdom and experience of older folks with the passion and energy of the youth.