You cannot talk about a victory when most US-based or supported war criminals are still free. They don't care about the ICC as Duterte did not.
Brazil's ex-military still not in prison e.g.
And all the US presidents or CIA leaders roaming free.
Certainly not a victory.
JumpCrisscross 2 days ago [-]
We aren’t party to the Rome Statute [1].
Our refusal to coöperate with the ICC doesn’t undermine the rules-based international order, which is first and foremost based on a notion of state sovereignty. It undermines the international human rights project (that admittedly seems to be dead).
I think it is fair to point out. George Bush helped erode the rules based order with the Iraq war. The US has always refused to accept anything that would limit exercising it's power.
JumpCrisscross 2 days ago [-]
> George Bush helped erode the rules based order with the Iraq war
The original sin was NATO—a defensive alliance—bombing Yugoslavia. Iraq was just a WTF cherry on top. That said, we didn’t annex anything, which the norm Russia toppled in Ukraine. Though now Trump and his supporters appear keen to make Iraq look milquetoast.
rat9988 2 days ago [-]
Wether there is annexion or not, does it make it any better for the dead?
JumpCrisscross 2 days ago [-]
> Wether there is annexion or not, does it make it any better for the dead?
It reduces the number of dead going forward by lowering the upside from wars of conquest.
hulitu 5 hours ago [-]
> That said, we didn’t annex anything
Eastern Europe is now part of NATO. /s
Teever 2 days ago [-]
I bet that Duterte's victims would consider it a victory.
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
jisnsm 3 days ago [-]
Western democracies have resigned themselves, perhaps by design, to leaving the poor vulnerable to criminals. I have no idea why this is, maybe sadism. Forcing the vulnerable to live a life where they have to worry for their personal security and for the security of their property is something these democracies will fight tooth and nail for. And that’s also their most successful cultural export, perhaps after Coca Cola.
simianwords 2 days ago [-]
I genuinely feel like this is bullying. Saudi does way more harm in this sense but you never see the same treatment to them do you? Where does this analogy break?
tycho-newman 2 days ago [-]
Can’t get Putin or Netanyahu. So get who you can!
aaron695 3 days ago [-]
Duterte was well supported by the people in a democracy and saved far more lives than killed and nothing was hidden from the people.
In a war no one would think twice.
Hopefully the ICC is defunded soon, Duterte might have not been right, maybe the right thing was to allow the killing ( and rapes and violent crimes ) to continue and slowly try and stop it against the will of the people. Morally maybe it's better to let thousands of innocents die.
The international community should not have been involved. It's corruption from opposition parties here. It seems most international organisations have become bureaucratic and corrupt tools for external groups.
pull_my_finger 2 days ago [-]
Totally ridiculous take. Duterte didn't stop drugs or rape at all. He condoned and decriminalized vigilantism and mob killings. Police abuse of powers was wildly out of control, and the cities were full of motorbike riding assassins. People were literally getting killed in the street and left with a sign claiming they were "pusher"s. During that time, he also attacked journalists who reported negatively and opposition politicians. There was a large sentiment suggesting the government/police force was INVOLVED in the drug trafficking even.
It was a horrible time in the Philippines and even worse, you can draw a LOT of parallels between his campaign and time in office to Trumps. Both used Cambridge Analytica data to manipulate voters on social media (and traditional media) and had "troll armies" on social media, both ran on populist/disestablishment platforms, both very "macho" and Duterte said horrible stuff that his press secretary pawned off as "Bisaya humor", where Trump did the same thing and pawned it off as "locker room talk". Trump cozies up to Putin just like Duterte cozied up to Xi Jinping even as he was encroaching in the West Philippine Sea. Duterte had his "oplan tokhong" targeting drug users (he said they were raping babies), where Trump has his ICE people going after brown people (he said they're eating peoples dogs). Both also wanted to alter their constitutions to allow longer terms for themselves.
If you put your tinfoil hat on for a moment, you could probably make a convincing argument that Duterte's presidency was like a pilot program for Trump's.
googlehater 2 days ago [-]
To add some context from the other side:
- "Additionally, polling firm PUBLiCUS Asia reported in Duterte's last month in office that Duterte received a 75% approval for his entire six-year tenure, making him the most popular post-EDSA president"
I am completely against killing people without due process, as he did, and bragged about. But it does seem that most people in the Philippines were happy with his policies, and his policies do appear to be "effective" wrt murder, though are extrajudicial killings by police any better? I don't think so
pull_my_finger 1 days ago [-]
Not to totally dismiss that Duterte was popular, because he had the same kind of fanatical support Trump does, but from the PUBLiCUS Asia site they are "Philippines’ first & only registered Lobbying & Campaigns Management firm.".
Also note that his term was 2016-2022 and from 2017-2019 the Philippines was under martial law[1] and 2020-2022 (Covid time) everyone was on another mandatory lockdown[2]. In addition to this, crime was already dropping before his term, and his statistics are dubious[3]
Respectfully, a lot of your comments appear apologetic to dictatorial/authoritarian figures and contradict "mainstream" thinking. What's your background/perspective? Given the support for Duterte, are you Filipino?
greatgib 3 days ago [-]
You point could be valid if it was not only a propaganda/marketing speech to cover terrible self interested crimes.
If his policy was so effective, why drug and criminality was still that high during all of his long time administration? Despite a lot of "democratic" countries respecting the rule of law not facing such issues.
And probably even worse, murders for all sort of reasons were very common, especially as corruption was mainstream. I guess when the president says that doing its own justice with murder as an impact in the way people and gangs solves their problems...
If any one still things that Duterte was a humanist, just ask yourself how did he build his wealth!
3 days ago [-]
jardinnew 2 days ago [-]
[flagged]
HeatrayEnjoyer 2 days ago [-]
[flagged]
redeeman 3 days ago [-]
I am not, but I have some connection to the philippines.
mainstream thinking is what the pictocube tells people.
its very simple, stopping drug epidemic good, having druggies everywhere bad. call it dictatorial if you want, going after drugdealers is something I support. Duterte delivered big.
sussmannbaka 3 days ago [-]
> going after drugdealers is something I support
weasel words. If you are going to publicly support extrajudicial mass murder, say so.
2 days ago [-]
suraci 3 days ago [-]
looks like a slippery slope?
redeeman 3 days ago [-]
> mass murder
so you admit the drugdealers are a massive amount of people?
anyway, you are assuming there is any justice to be found in the "justice" system. In a very ideal world, I would choose differently, but you have to look at the whole picture, and then the perfect solution is generally quite far from what you have to deal with
sussmannbaka 3 days ago [-]
I don’t admit anything of the sort. They committed extrajudicial mass murder. Are the ones they killed drug dealers? Criminals? Random passersby? Without a proper trial you can’t tell.
The death penalty is already bad WITH proper trials, since judges can always get it wrong but this isn’t even that.
Put differently, the way you are arguing for it would enable anyone to kill you in cold blood and later claim you had it coming.
2 days ago [-]
noplacelikehome 2 days ago [-]
IMO that's a gross oversimplification which ignores the actual problem.
In my (limited) experience of the Philippines, the greatest problem is the total lack of domestic opportunity, fuelled by the view of labour as an export. It's compounded by the high cost of education which parents are expected to cover. Graduates enter a world of retail and BPO jobs because they are overqualified. There is no social mobility. There is no middle class. Folks sell their homes and what little land their families hold to afford healthcare, which a few privileged doctors build private rental empires on.
Against this backdrop Duterte's popularity appears consistent with other populist figures -- a machismo strongman claiming to execute the people's will whilst stealing from them for his own gain. Add in extrajudicial killings and increasing militarisation of the police and it's hard to see him as anything other than a tyrant.
CMCDragonkai 2 days ago [-]
Why is there a lack of domestic opportunity? Why do they keep exporting their labour instead of focusing on internal capital investment and inviting foreign capital?
archagon 2 days ago [-]
These “strongmen” pretend to be tough on crime, but then gorge themselves on bribes and put their cronies in power. Every time.
arvinsim 3 days ago [-]
It's all well and good until someone you know gets falsely accused and killed.
ty6853 2 days ago [-]
100% agree, but something doesn't sit well with me about a country handing a democratic mandate for their leader to do the murderous bidding of the will of the people, then rather than judging him by his peers they betray him to foreign extradition for the very thing they ask for.
It seems his extradition had more to do with a political falling out with Marcos family than justice.
regularjack 3 days ago [-]
It's possible to use drugs and not be a junkie. My guess would be that most drug users are not junkies.
HeatrayEnjoyer 2 days ago [-]
Being a "junkie" isn't even inherently unethical, much less deserving of murder. There are plenty of functional alcoholics, and alcohol is one of the worst drugs of all.
HeatrayEnjoyer 2 days ago [-]
[flagged]
ty6853 2 days ago [-]
Duterte had popular support. You can argue, successfully, that what he did was wrong. But I don't think you can so easily dismiss that you understand the situation better than the Filipino people living in it that made the assessment.
worthless-trash 2 days ago [-]
[flagged]
Rendered at 01:47:12 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
Brazil's ex-military still not in prison e.g. And all the US presidents or CIA leaders roaming free. Certainly not a victory.
Our refusal to coöperate with the ICC doesn’t undermine the rules-based international order, which is first and foremost based on a notion of state sovereignty. It undermines the international human rights project (that admittedly seems to be dead).
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome_Statute
The original sin was NATO—a defensive alliance—bombing Yugoslavia. Iraq was just a WTF cherry on top. That said, we didn’t annex anything, which the norm Russia toppled in Ukraine. Though now Trump and his supporters appear keen to make Iraq look milquetoast.
It reduces the number of dead going forward by lowering the upside from wars of conquest.
Eastern Europe is now part of NATO. /s
Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.
In a war no one would think twice.
Hopefully the ICC is defunded soon, Duterte might have not been right, maybe the right thing was to allow the killing ( and rapes and violent crimes ) to continue and slowly try and stop it against the will of the people. Morally maybe it's better to let thousands of innocents die.
The international community should not have been involved. It's corruption from opposition parties here. It seems most international organisations have become bureaucratic and corrupt tools for external groups.
It was a horrible time in the Philippines and even worse, you can draw a LOT of parallels between his campaign and time in office to Trumps. Both used Cambridge Analytica data to manipulate voters on social media (and traditional media) and had "troll armies" on social media, both ran on populist/disestablishment platforms, both very "macho" and Duterte said horrible stuff that his press secretary pawned off as "Bisaya humor", where Trump did the same thing and pawned it off as "locker room talk". Trump cozies up to Putin just like Duterte cozied up to Xi Jinping even as he was encroaching in the West Philippine Sea. Duterte had his "oplan tokhong" targeting drug users (he said they were raping babies), where Trump has his ICE people going after brown people (he said they're eating peoples dogs). Both also wanted to alter their constitutions to allow longer terms for themselves.
If you put your tinfoil hat on for a moment, you could probably make a convincing argument that Duterte's presidency was like a pilot program for Trump's.
- "Additionally, polling firm PUBLiCUS Asia reported in Duterte's last month in office that Duterte received a 75% approval for his entire six-year tenure, making him the most popular post-EDSA president"
- The murder rate halved under his administration: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/PHL/phi...
I am completely against killing people without due process, as he did, and bragged about. But it does seem that most people in the Philippines were happy with his policies, and his policies do appear to be "effective" wrt murder, though are extrajudicial killings by police any better? I don't think so
Also note that his term was 2016-2022 and from 2017-2019 the Philippines was under martial law[1] and 2020-2022 (Covid time) everyone was on another mandatory lockdown[2]. In addition to this, crime was already dropping before his term, and his statistics are dubious[3]
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_No._216 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_community_quarantines... [3]: https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/philippi...
If his policy was so effective, why drug and criminality was still that high during all of his long time administration? Despite a lot of "democratic" countries respecting the rule of law not facing such issues.
And probably even worse, murders for all sort of reasons were very common, especially as corruption was mainstream. I guess when the president says that doing its own justice with murder as an impact in the way people and gangs solves their problems...
If any one still things that Duterte was a humanist, just ask yourself how did he build his wealth!
mainstream thinking is what the pictocube tells people.
its very simple, stopping drug epidemic good, having druggies everywhere bad. call it dictatorial if you want, going after drugdealers is something I support. Duterte delivered big.
weasel words. If you are going to publicly support extrajudicial mass murder, say so.
so you admit the drugdealers are a massive amount of people?
anyway, you are assuming there is any justice to be found in the "justice" system. In a very ideal world, I would choose differently, but you have to look at the whole picture, and then the perfect solution is generally quite far from what you have to deal with
The death penalty is already bad WITH proper trials, since judges can always get it wrong but this isn’t even that. Put differently, the way you are arguing for it would enable anyone to kill you in cold blood and later claim you had it coming.
In my (limited) experience of the Philippines, the greatest problem is the total lack of domestic opportunity, fuelled by the view of labour as an export. It's compounded by the high cost of education which parents are expected to cover. Graduates enter a world of retail and BPO jobs because they are overqualified. There is no social mobility. There is no middle class. Folks sell their homes and what little land their families hold to afford healthcare, which a few privileged doctors build private rental empires on.
Against this backdrop Duterte's popularity appears consistent with other populist figures -- a machismo strongman claiming to execute the people's will whilst stealing from them for his own gain. Add in extrajudicial killings and increasing militarisation of the police and it's hard to see him as anything other than a tyrant.
It seems his extradition had more to do with a political falling out with Marcos family than justice.