I'm not convinced. The reason the natives didn't have the ability to forge iron was more related to there were no good ore deposits to work with. If you are intelligent and see a blacksmith work a few times you can figure out how to forge iron if given some - it is a lot of effort and your first attempts will not be good, but if something is broken you don't lose anything by putting it in a fire and attempting to fix it. (a camp fire gets plenty hot for blacksmithing - just wait for the coals and then blow on them) However the lack of quality ores that were easy to get at meant that they didn't have any metal working in that part of the world and so of course they wouldn't know how to do it. Iron would have made the natives life much better if they had it, and they were smart enough to figure out how to work it from scratch if they had it (they have centuries to learn just like the rest of us)
Which is to say the facts are fit equally well by saying "The natives saw blacksmiths work in the colonists. So when aliens took the colonists way in a spaceship after they collected the iron which remained and learned to forge them into useful tools for themselves". Ridiculous of course, but it fits the facts just as well.
WalterBright 3 hours ago [-]
Is blowing on it really good enough? People don't have that much breath, and you'd have to put your face right up to the heat.
You could use a blowpipe of some sort. But better, a bellows. Was there any evidence of either?
Although the South and Central Americans worked bronze, the North Americans did not. I doubt a leap directly from nothing to iron smithing could occur.
klank 52 minutes ago [-]
Whether or not forced air (blowing) would be necessary would depend on the coal temp, metal size, and how you want to shape the metal.
Simple forging of small enough pieces within a large enough coal bed might not even require forced air to reach a workable temp.
bluGill 3 hours ago [-]
They didn't have metal options - in north america metals are mostly found in deep mines.
I agree that blowing is not ideal - but it would work. A flat board as a fan, or even bellows are options. The larger point is none of these would leave evidence behind.
derbOac 7 hours ago [-]
I have family in the area and my impression from archeological and historical news, articles and books from there is there isn't really one definitive moment where everyone in the colony just kind of up and left to the same place at the same time. If I had to bet, there was a kind of gradual process of degradation of the colony and some went one way and others went another.
This was interesting to read and it seems kind of definitive, and my impression is it's consistent with other things I've read. But if I recall correctly, there's also evidence from other sites that some from the colony also went elsewhere.
It seems reasonable to me to think that if things were breaking down, there might be differences of thought or preference about where to go, and that they might have also assumed they weren't totally cutting off contact from one another, being in the same area.
the_real_cher 5 hours ago [-]
Where did they go?
Were there other settlements ?
Spooky23 27 minutes ago [-]
The 1619 project touched on this well. Slaves and indentured servants snuck away and joined native settlements and even had fringe settlements of their own eventually.
Working in one of the colonies for some rich guy prioritizing tobacco to pay dividends over food wasn’t a fun time.
lmm 26 minutes ago [-]
There were native people living there (in ways that leave little trace in the archaeological record), I've heard it argued that many colonists may have chosen to join them.
labster 23 minutes ago [-]
This may come as a surprise to you, but there were many settlements in America before Europeans ever showed up.
No other British settlements in the hemisphere, though. Failed expeditions did end up in other nations colonies, but this was never pleasant for either side. But they would have had to go hundreds of kilometers by sea to find other Europeans, without a proper ship and on meager supplies. Joining the natives was the best way to survive… but which natives?
heavyset_go 9 minutes ago [-]
Perhaps the one they had somewhat "okay" relations with and whose leader's son made several trips to Europe with John White.
The experience of early colonists is so fascinating. Some of these colonies were very tenuous and seemed very unprepared.
GlenTheMachine 9 hours ago [-]
The Jamestown colonists starved to death literally living on the shore of the most productive marine environment on earth. They didn’t know how to care for the fishing nets, so they rotted, and then didn’t know how to fix them.
The issue was that many of the colonists were second sons of relatively wealthy families, and weren’t all that familiar with fishing or farming. The first son inherited everything, and the second son had to make his way in the world, and colonizing was an enticing prospect for making your fortune. Poorer families, at the very early stages, weren’t sending their sons on these ventures because they needed the labor at home.
As someone who grew up next to Jamestown, I can add some context.
John Smith, one of Jamestown's leaders, was not from a wealthy or privileged background. "The issue" may have been less about class and more about poor organization, leadership and unrealistic expectations.
Fishing and farming skills also deserve context. The soil around Jamestown was marshy and brackish, unsuitable for traditional English farming methods. Yes there were lots of fish but they only ran seasonally (sturgeon etc). The "starving time" you are referencing was made worse by a drought and cutoff trade with the indians
elevation 5 hours ago [-]
The soil may have been brackish, but this wasn't their main setback.
The Jamestown colonists didn't even attempt to plant crops for several years after their arrival. Their first ship brought jewelers and smiths to work the gold they assumed they'd find, but didn't have a real plan for agriculture. The majority died of starvation and disease, but the survivors were sustained by meager leftover travel supplies from newly arriving ships, and by raiding neighboring natives for their corn.
Less than a decade later, separatist Pilgrims landed in New England, and by contrast, grew crops immediately, and cultivated diplomatic relations with their neighbors. The Pilgrims settled in a higher latitude with a shorter growing season, but during their first drought they had already stored enough supplies to share with local natives.
Jamestown could have been on a similar footing if they'd prioritized survival and diplomacy over finding treasure for the crown, the chartering company, and themselves.
CGMthrowaway 3 hours ago [-]
>The Jamestown colonists didn't even attempt to plant crops for several years after their arrival
Source? I'm pretty sure they planted corn and wheat as soon as they could, in the first month of arrival. "The 15th June we had finished our fort... we had also sown most of our corn on two mountains. It sprang a man's height from the ground." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Maria_Wingfield
> Less than a decade later, separatist Pilgrims landed in New England, and by contrast, grew crops immediately, and cultivated diplomatic relations with their neighbors.
And, as I understand it, settled into areas which had previously been cleared and cultivated by the natives but had been relatively recently abandoned.
https://discover.hubpages.com/education/The-Pilgrims-and-the...
"The Pilgrims decided to establish their colony in an area that had been cleared and abandoned by the Patuxet Indians. One colonist remarked, “Thousands of men have lived here, which died in a great plague not long since; and pity it was and is to see so many goodly fields, and so well seated, without men to dress and manure the same."
That's one amazing head start. And, had they not had it, the Pilgrims probably would have died, too.
WalterBright 4 hours ago [-]
Jamestown also starved because they tried collective farming (communism). It didn't work for them any more than it worked for anyone else.
So did the Pilgrims for their first year. They starved, too.
heavyset_go 1 minutes ago [-]
Walter, I appreciate your comments but you surely have to know Jamestown settlers were in no way practicing communism as it's understood today.
WalterBright 3 hours ago [-]
I'm always impressed by the faith people have that somehow, this time collectivism is going to work!
dentemple 9 hours ago [-]
Even today, with modern information available to us, people still woefully underestimate what it would take to live in a true wilderness.
lazystar 8 hours ago [-]
I've got a great example of this. I'm renting a house that provides a gas powered lawnmower for tenants to use, and I've elected to just let the grass grow because I have no idea how to use the thing
floren 8 hours ago [-]
Now look, there's debates to be had about whether or not lawns are good idea, or how long grass should grow, etc. but there's no excuse for not figuring out how a gas mower works. I could tell you here in a paragraph or you could watch a 30 minute Youtube which will contain in it somewhere the 1 minute of actual instructions you need. It's a pretty damn simple system.
yawgmoth 6 hours ago [-]
Adjust the height to the highest setting.
Put gas in it. If there's a soft rubber thing near the gas, hit it twice to provide some fuel but no more as you risk "flooding" the engine.
Hold down any handle at the top of the mower, often the thing will require you to manually hold it down during start and all operations.
Look for the starter pull. It's often on the right, on the motor or mower handles. It's a piece of plastic attached to a cable. Give it a yank with a full follow through. It doesn't have to be maximum effort but too gentle won't work either.
rpcope1 8 hours ago [-]
Are you joking or something? It's just check the gas and oil, hold down the brake lever on the handle, pull the crank a few times and away you go. Maybe it's old and has a fuel bulb or a choke, or fancy and has a transmission and the lever to engage it, but it's really not complicated at all.
PaulDavisThe1st 41 minutes ago [-]
I grew up around many different sorts of power tools. By my mid-20s I was comfortable using routers, table saws, sawzalls, jigsaws, jackhammers and more.
But nobody in my family had any gas-powered motors for anything at all.
I'm 61 now, and a volunteer firefighter. We have lots of gas powered chainsaws, circular saws, ventilation fans, and more.
I'm still extremely uncomfortable with starting these engines.
pizzafeelsright 7 hours ago [-]
Lazy,
You cannot live this way. I can walk you through anything related to home care.
lazystar 7 hours ago [-]
just anxious. i live pretty remote; if i get hurt and cant get to a phone, no one will find me until my lease expires. one of the downsides of auto payments i think.
xnyan 41 minutes ago [-]
It's actually pretty hard to hurt yourself on the active blade of a push mower. I've only heard of one account of this happening first hand, someone 1) slipped while 2) gripping and not releasing the handle interlock switch as they slipped while 3) pushing the mower uphill and 4) wearing flip flops. Don't do that, and you'll be fine.
I don't have any data but I'd assume it's vastly safer to mow the lawn than drive a car.
cafard 4 hours ago [-]
With a modern mower, it's pretty hard to hurt yourself.
mikestew 3 hours ago [-]
I wouldn't necessarily assume it's at all modern. I've had Briggs-and-Stratton-powered mowers that had the deck rot from corrosion long before that B&S engine dies. Point being, if the mower was "provided", who knows the vintage? It sure isn't going to be the landlord's top-shelf mower fresh from the dealer.
amanaplanacanal 4 hours ago [-]
On the other hand, just letting it grow isn't going to hurt anything.
pizzafeelsright 6 hours ago [-]
use age1s6cz86s99unkfm2sqy045w5w79n8lyyulwu9qy3gkaeydmexwv5qvkh2pp reply with your contact if you want help.
timnetworks 3 hours ago [-]
this is maybe the most accidentally insightful post I have seen on HN. Or satire so sharp it cuts in line.
jf22 7 hours ago [-]
The colonists didn't have anything near this level of technology though...
CGMthrowaway 8 hours ago [-]
How would you have prepared, were you in their shoes? Roanoke Island was first landed in 1585. The only foreknowledge of the area would have been wildly embellished and optimistic reports (competing for financing, royal favor and prestige) from the likes of Spanish and French expeditions, or Sir Francis Drake. This was mostly limited to coastal recon and said little of the dangers of malaria, indian politics, seasonality, etc.
For example, the Amadas-Barlowe Expedition (1584) described Roanoke Island as "the most plentiful, sweet, fruitful and wholesome of all the world," with fertile soil, abundant wildlife, and friendly natives
potato3732842 8 hours ago [-]
>were very tenuous and seemed very unprepared.
Old world politics at the time explain most of this. Some of the english colonies were, ugh, rushed and less well funded than they would have been under ideal situations.
This is basically the same reason they didn't look too hard to see what happened to the Roanoke colony.
codingdave 3 days ago [-]
Not unlike youth in our current society who leave home then bounce around from one place to another until they find the spot they want to settle in for a while.
I mean sure, colonists from hundreds of years ago are different than young adults of today.... but the tenuous nature, in general, of people out exploring the world for a new home is unsurprising.
duxup 3 days ago [-]
No I don’t think they are anything alike.
chiefalchemist 3 days ago [-]
If this is the case then there should be DNA evidence as well. Presuming that assimilation led to procreation.
bryanlarsen 9 hours ago [-]
The native population of the area was well mixed with European and African genes in the 18th and 19th century. It would be very difficult to determine whether there was also mixture in the late 16th / early 17th century.
ilamont 9 hours ago [-]
400-year-old traces would be hard to detect owing to admixture, but if they could find identical-by-descent segments that would be very compelling, as the research into Native American traces found in Polynesian populations shows:
If Croatoan ceremonies didn't involve cremation it could be quite a bit easier.. I don't really see the article's evidence as very compelling. Many things may have been collected from the site and ultimately discarded in the trash heaps without the proposed integration.
9 hours ago [-]
card_zero 9 hours ago [-]
There's no descendants, bones, or other source of DNA known to belong to the
colonists to work from.
potato3732842 8 hours ago [-]
The English have good records. We could perhaps find the decendents of relatives who stayed put and then find their "hey you guys seem to have more DNA in common than you ought to" counterparts of native american heritage.
exe34 8 hours ago [-]
The way it works for molecular phylogeny is that you try to find things that are conserved. E.g. if you find a small village in Europe where people haven't moved around much and you find a rare mutation that is also present in one other part of the US, then you might be able to put some numbers on the likelihood that this mutation/gene came from a the original place. Find a second gene, find some artefacts from the right place/time and you have an emerging picture.
vpribish 6 hours ago [-]
keep that toxic shitbag of a media network off of this site.
7 hours ago [-]
CGMthrowaway 8 hours ago [-]
TLDR: the Roanoke Colony moved to Hatteras Island.
From a backbarrier island to a barrier island (towards the sea)
rich_sasha 8 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
Fairburn 6 hours ago [-]
Get that fox crap outa our News.
buildsjets 2 hours ago [-]
Is this story available from a reputable source?
Rendered at 03:31:50 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
Which is to say the facts are fit equally well by saying "The natives saw blacksmiths work in the colonists. So when aliens took the colonists way in a spaceship after they collected the iron which remained and learned to forge them into useful tools for themselves". Ridiculous of course, but it fits the facts just as well.
You could use a blowpipe of some sort. But better, a bellows. Was there any evidence of either?
Although the South and Central Americans worked bronze, the North Americans did not. I doubt a leap directly from nothing to iron smithing could occur.
Simple forging of small enough pieces within a large enough coal bed might not even require forced air to reach a workable temp.
I agree that blowing is not ideal - but it would work. A flat board as a fan, or even bellows are options. The larger point is none of these would leave evidence behind.
This was interesting to read and it seems kind of definitive, and my impression is it's consistent with other things I've read. But if I recall correctly, there's also evidence from other sites that some from the colony also went elsewhere.
It seems reasonable to me to think that if things were breaking down, there might be differences of thought or preference about where to go, and that they might have also assumed they weren't totally cutting off contact from one another, being in the same area.
Were there other settlements ?
Working in one of the colonies for some rich guy prioritizing tobacco to pay dividends over food wasn’t a fun time.
No other British settlements in the hemisphere, though. Failed expeditions did end up in other nations colonies, but this was never pleasant for either side. But they would have had to go hundreds of kilometers by sea to find other Europeans, without a proper ship and on meager supplies. Joining the natives was the best way to survive… but which natives?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manteo_(Native_American_leader...
The issue was that many of the colonists were second sons of relatively wealthy families, and weren’t all that familiar with fishing or farming. The first son inherited everything, and the second son had to make his way in the world, and colonizing was an enticing prospect for making your fortune. Poorer families, at the very early stages, weren’t sending their sons on these ventures because they needed the labor at home.
https://historicjamestowne.org/wp-content/uploads/Subsistenc...
John Smith, one of Jamestown's leaders, was not from a wealthy or privileged background. "The issue" may have been less about class and more about poor organization, leadership and unrealistic expectations.
Fishing and farming skills also deserve context. The soil around Jamestown was marshy and brackish, unsuitable for traditional English farming methods. Yes there were lots of fish but they only ran seasonally (sturgeon etc). The "starving time" you are referencing was made worse by a drought and cutoff trade with the indians
The Jamestown colonists didn't even attempt to plant crops for several years after their arrival. Their first ship brought jewelers and smiths to work the gold they assumed they'd find, but didn't have a real plan for agriculture. The majority died of starvation and disease, but the survivors were sustained by meager leftover travel supplies from newly arriving ships, and by raiding neighboring natives for their corn.
Less than a decade later, separatist Pilgrims landed in New England, and by contrast, grew crops immediately, and cultivated diplomatic relations with their neighbors. The Pilgrims settled in a higher latitude with a shorter growing season, but during their first drought they had already stored enough supplies to share with local natives.
Jamestown could have been on a similar footing if they'd prioritized survival and diplomacy over finding treasure for the crown, the chartering company, and themselves.
Source? I'm pretty sure they planted corn and wheat as soon as they could, in the first month of arrival. "The 15th June we had finished our fort... we had also sown most of our corn on two mountains. It sprang a man's height from the ground." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Maria_Wingfield
By the third year (1609) they had cleared and planted at least 40 acres https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/online_books/hh/2/hh2b2.htm
And, as I understand it, settled into areas which had previously been cleared and cultivated by the natives but had been relatively recently abandoned.
https://discover.hubpages.com/education/The-Pilgrims-and-the... "The Pilgrims decided to establish their colony in an area that had been cleared and abandoned by the Patuxet Indians. One colonist remarked, “Thousands of men have lived here, which died in a great plague not long since; and pity it was and is to see so many goodly fields, and so well seated, without men to dress and manure the same."
That's one amazing head start. And, had they not had it, the Pilgrims probably would have died, too.
So did the Pilgrims for their first year. They starved, too.
Put gas in it. If there's a soft rubber thing near the gas, hit it twice to provide some fuel but no more as you risk "flooding" the engine.
Hold down any handle at the top of the mower, often the thing will require you to manually hold it down during start and all operations.
Look for the starter pull. It's often on the right, on the motor or mower handles. It's a piece of plastic attached to a cable. Give it a yank with a full follow through. It doesn't have to be maximum effort but too gentle won't work either.
But nobody in my family had any gas-powered motors for anything at all.
I'm 61 now, and a volunteer firefighter. We have lots of gas powered chainsaws, circular saws, ventilation fans, and more.
I'm still extremely uncomfortable with starting these engines.
You cannot live this way. I can walk you through anything related to home care.
I don't have any data but I'd assume it's vastly safer to mow the lawn than drive a car.
For example, the Amadas-Barlowe Expedition (1584) described Roanoke Island as "the most plentiful, sweet, fruitful and wholesome of all the world," with fertile soil, abundant wildlife, and friendly natives
Old world politics at the time explain most of this. Some of the english colonies were, ugh, rushed and less well funded than they would have been under ideal situations.
This is basically the same reason they didn't look too hard to see what happened to the Roanoke colony.
I mean sure, colonists from hundreds of years ago are different than young adults of today.... but the tenuous nature, in general, of people out exploring the world for a new home is unsurprising.
https://gizmodo.com/native-americans-voyaged-to-polynesia-lo...
From a backbarrier island to a barrier island (towards the sea)