I wish Microsoft reverted to its 1990s style of making tools for power users that don’t get in the way. Windows 2000 was peak Windows to me. Security issues aside, it was a solid OS. It also had a non-flashy interface that got out of my way. No annoying notifications, no distractions: just pure Windows. Windows 2000 respected the user.
Today’s versions of Windows seem less respectful of the user. Microsoft is treating Windows as a platform to advertise Microsoft’s products rather than as strictly a productivity tool. Even if a lot of users these days use computers more like entertainment and communication devices rather than productivity tools, software should still get out of the user’s way. Software should shut up and do what the user commands.
Unfortunately there are other software systems that have the same philosophy. Google constantly nags me regarding logging in and switching to Chrome. Even macOS has gotten a lot more nag screens in the past decade compared to the glory years of Jobs-era Mac OS X.
It’s amazing how so many organizations are dependent on Windows, macOS, and Google for their productivity, yet these platforms have become more annoying to use over the years, becoming impediments to productivity.
hilbert42 10 minutes ago [-]
"Windows 2000 was peak Windows to me."
Exactly the same here (and I've said so many times over the past 20 or so years). Sure, the W2K UI could be tarted up a little bit but no major functional changes. With security and hardware updates I'd be completely happy.
Microsoft's behavior forced me into migrating to Linux (and in that I'm not alone).
SnuffBox 20 minutes ago [-]
I still use Windows 2k machines for Photoshop and other old Adobe tools that didn't have much in the way of DRM. It's an operating system that respects the user, it doesn't act as a babysitter.
jwrallie 57 minutes ago [-]
It is really easy, they could just take LTSC and market it to a different audience, and it would be 95% there.
But they won’t, because they don’t care.
Telemakhos 48 minutes ago [-]
> Even macOS has gotten a lot more nag screens in the past decade compared to the glory years of Jobs-era Mac OS X.
I bought a new iPad the other day. I've got notifications in System Preferences advertising five different services I don't want, plus more notifications in individual apps (like an advertisement for the Apple TV subscription in the TV app, which is not the same thing as the subscription service). I don't want Apple TV, Apple-filtered News, whatever the Apple exercise thing is, or the Apple Cultural Experience: just the hardware and software I bought.
Ezhik 6 minutes ago [-]
The one good thing about Apple is that they at least have the decency to shut the fuck up once you pay them.
Meanwhile Microsoft kept showing me upsells in File Explorer to move this or that to OneDrive despite me already paying for the damn thing.
bradleyankrom 20 minutes ago [-]
A persistent notification badge on Settings because it believes I just haven't gotten to setting up Siri after all these years
Esophagus4 41 minutes ago [-]
Yes - and the Apple Card advertisement in the wallet app. Or a persistent notification badge to turn on iCloud.
I’ve made my decisions, leave me alone!
elros 24 minutes ago [-]
> I’ve made my decisions, leave me alone!
Perhaps you and GP aren't really the target market for their products. Part of why, after many years of Slackware and Arch Linux on desktops I assembled myself, compiling kernel modules, etc etc, I decided to pay Apple for the past decade is exactly because I don't want to make these decisions.
Frankly I pay Apple for the following things, in order or descending importance to me:
2) MagSafe cable so I don't trip on cords and/or damage my machines;
3) The subjective feeling that their corporate interests are more aligned with mine than other players in the market, viz. privacy etc.;
4) Pixel density;
5) Well-built aluminum bodies;
6) Large trackpads;
To be fair, I'm not saying the prompting for things I don't want (e.g. I don't consume any media services or exercise stuff) isn't annoying, but it seems to only happen once I switch devices every few years. It's been useful for me to discover services I wouldn't know about otherwise, which I now am a customer of, such as iCloud.
Esophagus4 17 minutes ago [-]
You make a great point - I am still a Mac user because their ecosystem is thoughtful and cohesive and their computers have lasted forever.
I guess I just wish they weren’t so… pushy. As a consumer, I get nudged by all kinds of companies every day, so I get a little… overstimulated (?) by it all, and sometimes just want to use it the way that I want to use the device.
I’m also the guy that has turned off notifications for almost every phone app, because it feels invasive of my brain space… I want to decide when I will use an app and when I won’t.
scarface_74 8 minutes ago [-]
I can’t defend the Apple Card. But having a persistent notification to turn on iCloud is good for the user so they don’t lose irreplaceable pictures.
Now the fact that fifteen years later that iCloud is only 5GB for free is inexcusable
tomalbrc 23 minutes ago [-]
Or Firefox asking me to make it my default browser for the billionth time
sheepscreek 1 hours ago [-]
TL;DR American companies are legally obligated to put the interests of shareholders before customers and employees. (Off-topic) This should explain why layoffs are so acceptable, even in the face of record profits.
There’s a reason why their stock price is through the roof. Companies in the US have their first and foremost duty towards Shareholders, and only shareholders. This is not an opinion, I am speaking legally.[1] And what the shareholders want is for the company to squeeze out every dollar it possibly can from its products.
Please read the "Significance" section of the Wikipedia article you linked. It shows that your claim that this is a legal requirement isn't as clear-cut as you make it to be.
lightedman 1 hours ago [-]
"This is not an opinion, I am speaking legally"
Hi, as former member of a board of directors, and also as a current shareholder in a company, you are wrong. The fiduciary duties owed to the company arise from the legal relationship between the directors and the company directed and controlled by them. The fiduciary duties owed to the shareholders do not arise from that legal relationship.
Try again when you actually graduate law school. Maybe then you can speak legally about something I do PROFESSIONALLY.
emptysongglass 52 minutes ago [-]
You're not saying anything, though you may think you are. Fiduciary duties owed to the company arising from the legal relationship between the directors and company is just legalese disguising the actual practice of public companies. In practice, every publicly held company that is not a benefit corporation serves to maximize stakeholder earnings.
sheepscreek 52 minutes ago [-]
Yes but WHEN there is a conflict of interest, whose interest is put before the others? Within the confines of legality, companies have a lot of leeway when it comes to taking decisions that put customers and even their employees on the back-foot.
I did not say I am a lawyer - but that is a Supreme Court case any lawyer would be happy to cite in the court of law.
whatevaa 46 minutes ago [-]
Such a snarky comment won't get anybody agreeing with you. Nor yoh actually explained anything.
sheepscreek 43 minutes ago [-]
Also, I was talking about the company’s fiduciary duties, NOT duties owed TO the company. You’re complete off the point here, sorry to say.
the__alchemist 1 hours ago [-]
This is so annoying. I just had a Windows update, and had to decline Office and backups again. The worst one I've encountered is moving your home folder items to OneDrive without consent.
On the plus side of Windows added features, PowerToys has some nice tools!
For the audio device switching mentioned in the article: Try downloading Soundswitch: Fixed this for me. (Note: There's a scammy-looking software that also goes by this name; be careful!)
mrec 55 minutes ago [-]
The "OOBE" post-update prompt has become incredibly toxic. The last one even started blocking Alt-Tab so you couldn't get out, and demanded a Microsoft account password which I never use so don't have memorized. And of course I couldn't get to my usual reminders. If I didn't have a mobile handy as backup (which I didn't, until recently) I'd basically be looking at a bricked PC.
This is about as dark-pattern-ey as it gets. Pretty sure I'm going to be making the jump to Linux for my next machine, or on this one if W10 becomes unusable after EoL.
kayodelycaon 43 minutes ago [-]
I had a neighbor get completely locked out of a laptop after a Windows update due to this. They didn’t have the password or phone number to the Microsoft account. Of course, you can’t send a password reset email to the account you’re locked out of. I couldn’t figure out how to reverse it converting a local account into a cloud one.
There’s probably a way but I haven’t troubleshooted a Windows problem since 2008.
ccppurcell 21 minutes ago [-]
My partner uses Windows and I occasionally provide my amateurish tech support. One thing not mentioned in this article is the right click situation. I can't really describe what's wrong because I've not used Windows regularly in ten years. All I know is it is very confusing and basic tasks are hidden behind an extra click. I'm sure this is another mcrib situation but I wanted to mention it. There's probably a way to change it. But there are so many things like this and they usually come up when I'm trying to solve some other problem and don't have time to get distracted finding the setting. Is it so hard to make basic functionality the default and let users add on some of these features if they want to.
speeder 13 minutes ago [-]
So when I got forced to use Win11 I went to look for a script that disable telemetry. Then I see the script offers the feature of using old behavior for right click menu...
I immediately started to think: but old behavior was so simple and obvious, what is there to change? The I right clicked to check. Immediately was hit with the wtf changes. Why? Why MS?
ItsBob 7 minutes ago [-]
I've said it many times in the past: the OS is a toolbox, just like a carpenters toolbox.
I use it to keep my apps (tools) in. I use the apps (hammer, saw, screwdriver etc.) to get a job done, then I put them away. The job of the OS isn't to recommend that I use Hammer v2.0 or to update my toolbox to the latest version.
The OS is, or should be, out of my way.
I agree with others here: Windows 2000 was peak OS for me!
jasonvorhe 1 hours ago [-]
You can get all that and more with any modern Linux distribution without the telemetry, surveillance and without a forced cloud-linked account trying to constantly upsell you something without having to worry about most malware. Begging Microsoft for scraps in 2025 is just weak. Enjoy the slavery.
the__alchemist 1 hours ago [-]
I will get irritated with the flaws in Windows; The ones listed in the article and more. I will also get irritated with the flaws of Linux and its flavors! Some examples
- The ABI diaspora
- Sudo nominally being for special/power use cases, but being required for many things
- Doesn't feel like it's aimed at single-user PCs, and has associated UX problems
- Non-standard hardware has limited support.
Summarized: I feel like Linux has some deep philosophical design differences from what I look for in a computer. I'm not trying to administer anything; I just want to write and launch software.
bbkane 1 hours ago [-]
See my comment above, but I'm in the same boat. Linux definitely has problems that need to be solved, but unlike Windows its less likely to "change underneath me" once I've solved those problems to my satisfaction. In fact, a Windows update breaking my desktop is what facilitated my switch to Linux.
I'm also more willing to solve problems in Linux. Because I primarily write web software, I've also found "Linux debugging" skills more useful to learn than "Windows debugging skills" - the Linux skills tend to translate almost directly to my career. And it usually feels worthwhile to contribute good bug reports/fixes upstream; in stark contrast to Windows OS issues (and some of the more popular Windows software).
megaloblasto 1 hours ago [-]
Linux has UX problems isn't quite a correct statement because Linux has many, fully flexible user interfaces that can be customized however you like.
It's possible that you are just experiencing friction moving to Linux because you are used to MS.
Easily writing and launching software is something Linux excels at.
the__alchemist 50 minutes ago [-]
Context: I've been using linux for 20 years, and do currently at my job. "Linux has many, fully flexible user interfaces that can be customized however you like." feels like a "you're holding it wrong", or "chose the wrong distro".
I don't want to go into the details, but I regularly experience UX problems in Ubuntu. Even things like reading/writing a USB port requires sudo, or editing system config files, which is wild to me. And adding a trailing newline to the config file in question will prevent your GUI from booting. Adding an item to the PATH is a combo of unintuitive, or filled with incorrect instructions (Including Go's home page CAO yesterday...).
Or, software I write can't be launched without using having the user go to the CLI, or creating a GUI-specific config file and placing it in a certain location. This leads to the line I hear regularly "You should publish your software on the distro-specific app store", or "You should only install software from the app store". Which immediately leads me to think I have a use-case mismatch.
megaloblasto 38 minutes ago [-]
Got it, but those are more Ubuntu specific qualms that you have, not arguments against Linux in general.
I use NixOS and I don't have UX problems because my UX is fully customized to work exactly how I want.
Plus, for every but of friction you may experience in Linix, the cons of Microsoft are much greater. They have no concern for your privacy, and exploit their workers and the environment.
Last time I used Microsoft (~8 years ago) I couldn't get that malware OS to stop forcefully suggesting and using their cloud services automatically.
There are many things that MS does that are just unacceptable.
esafak 10 minutes ago [-]
Linux lacks designers and product managers; it's very programmer heavy, and this is the consequence.
43 minutes ago [-]
hulitu 45 minutes ago [-]
> And adding a trailing newline to the config file in question will prevent your GUI from booting.
Now do the same in Windows. Messing with system files, without knowing what you are doing, is a recipe to disaster.
the__alchemist 42 minutes ago [-]
> Now do the same in Windows. Messing with system files, without knowing what you are doing, is a recipe to disaster.
I think I didn't communicate something clearly: My concern isn't that misediting a system file causes disaster. It's that you need to edit system files to do routine things.
On Windows, the solution is simple: USB/serial works without editing system files or requiring launching the program via CLI with sudo. You double-click the program in GUI, and it works.
pessimizer 10 minutes ago [-]
These seem very trivial, except the ABI (but only for people marketing software) and the last one, which is simply untrue.
If you absolutely refuse to handle your own system's security ("Enter a password to do something on my own computer? No thank you!"), you really should leave the management of your computer to Microsoft, and ask their permission personally to view your own files. They'll faceid you, consider the merits of your request, and decide how much access you should have to your own life.
In that way you can avoid sudo, or the concept of a multiuser computer entirely.
As for the last one, it is simply untrue. Linux supports as much as or more hardware than Windows. Windows will more likely support the latest greatest stuff because people don't release hardware specs. But once Linux catches up, it keeps that hardware compatibility longer, and can always be reverted back to by using an old kernel even a decade or two after a piece of hardware is dropped.
troupo 44 minutes ago [-]
> Sudo nominally being for special/power use cases, but being required for many things
Just the fact that installing user software still requires sudo in most distributions is very irritating to me.
Hence the rise of `curl <something> | bash` I think
bbkane 1 hours ago [-]
I switched my primary desktop to Debian XFCE a year ago. Took me a while to "distro shop" and install NVIDIA drivers and set my keyboard shortcuts, but now that everything works it keeps chugging along with no drama. I turn my PC on, start streaming music, and hack on my little side project code. Lovely.
Most non-gamers probably only need a web browser, so I think a lot of people could get away with this (maybe with a distro that pre-installs drivers they need).
partomniscient 31 minutes ago [-]
I'm also in agreement that server-side, Windows 2000 server was peak.
XP/Window 7 were peak end-user OS's, once you got over the Fisher-Price look of XP.
The constraints you had in terms of user-UI were a massive advantage in terms of user-understanding. Now we're in a stupid era of the browser is the UI and everything is non-conformant with everything else in terms of looks/expectation/behaviour.
The version of MS-Office prior to the stupid ribbon-shit were also the peak versions. It's all been downhill since then with Windows ME and Windows 8 being exceptionally low points.
I'm about to shift to FreeBSD as my main driver as the Linux distribution fragmentation and wane in reliability/dependability and repeatability has given me the shits (how many apt-get equivalents are there now...?) I used to like Debian back in the day but now it and its derivatives (e.g. Ubuntu) give me the shits and Red-Hat and Fedora likewise, and Debian itself won't even install a working desktop. Apparently raising a bug for Fedora gets put into "Closed - not a bug" because IBM don't give a shit about quality anymore - even though the install resulted in an unbootable OS and I spent hours raising a proper bug report. Pop-OS was reasonable, but scaling where some apps have both big and little font sizes intermixed still mean its a clusterfuck of a kludge.
It's 2025 and apparently trying to mount network shares in fstab before the network interface is up isn't a bug. It's still not year of the desktop for Linux.
FWIW, I liked Apple in the 1980's - not so much since then.
I still appreciate all the contributions of those individuals out there is both GNU/Linux and the BSD'd trying to make the world a better place for themselves/others and sharing the results.
b0ner_t0ner 4 minutes ago [-]
They really lost the plot with Copilot, stuffing it into every Microsoft app possible.
mastry 2 hours ago [-]
They're doing the same thing with C#. The amount crap they have added to that language over the years is mind boggling - yet, we still don't have sum types which is the one thing that every C# developer I have worked with _really_ wants.
tyleo 1 hours ago [-]
I have mixed views on this. We’ve gotten a lot of good with the bad. I think “C#, the Good Parts” would be a much thicker book than “JavaScript, the Good Parts”
JaggerJo 55 minutes ago [-]
I agree. Most things that got added are good.
I don’t like that there are 3+ ways of checking if a value is null tho.
vips7L 32 minutes ago [-]
There’s like 3+ ways to construct an object too.
high_na_euv 12 minutes ago [-]
Have you seen cpp?
vouwfietsman 1 hours ago [-]
That in itself is a critique of C#
tialaramex 1 hours ago [-]
Maybe, it's not my favourite language, but it seems basically fine. A new version drops, my five, ten year old code largely still just works and maybe there are improvements I have a use for in new code.
Some of the remaining warts are because it is wedded to the .NET CLR, so if the CLR says you can't do that then, too bad C# can't do that. It would not be practical to do anything about those.
fabian2k 47 minutes ago [-]
It's anything but a small language, but I wouldn't consider the stuff they're adding crap. They're useful features, but yes, this does have a price and makes the language larger.
There is value in a language with minimal syntax like Go, but it's not the only choice. C# is a pretty nice language overall, even with all the warts. But every language people actually use does have ugly stuff somewhere.
orthoxerox 1 hours ago [-]
Could you list the features you consider crap?
mastry 24 minutes ago [-]
Here are some. I’m not saying these are all completely useless, but all of them should have taken a back seat to sum types.
We're discussing Windows and all its ad-ware/invasive changes, and someone brings up C# without giving a real explanation or examples.
The last few C# versions brought primary constructors, collection expressions, records(!), tons of Span<T> improvements/support, etc. I just flicked through the list, and nothing that stuck out to me as being bloated.
The main bloat C# has is older stuff that you really shouldn't be using anymore (e.g. ArrayList, dynamic, Thread, delegate keyword, etc).
mastry 12 minutes ago [-]
> We're discussing Windows and all its ad-ware/invasive changes, and someone brings up C#
I brought up C# because the article discusses a Microsoft Windows design philosophy that I feel is also reflected in their approach to C#. It’s a Microsoft thing.
I agree with you that the examples you mention were great additions to the language! But I still think the C# design team has some seriously screwed up priorities. My theory is that this one year cycle they are on is hampering their ability to make changes (like sum types) that require more than a year of work.
shiandow 1 hours ago [-]
If you're creative about it you can make an interface for what is essentially a sum type.
All it takes is a method signature like:
Z read<Z>(Func<A,Z> readA, Func<B,Z> readB)
It's a bit of a Yoneda embedding like way of forcing it in to the language, but hey it works.
codedokode 59 minutes ago [-]
You can emulate sum types with classes and inheritance (N classes inherit from an empty base class), can't you?
bestouff 53 minutes ago [-]
It's very clunky
mastry 17 minutes ago [-]
Yes, very clunky. One of the big issues with this approach is that switch expressions still require a default branch because there’s no way in C# to express a completely closed set. This makes future changes to the set (sum type) hazardous.
I boot into my Windows partition for work-related activities often, and hear about the demise of Windows all the time.
Am I the only one who doesn't see it? I have all of the annoying stuff disabled, and basically have installed nothing besides the standard productivity/office tools. For me it's just a clean setup that stays out of my way. I'm running an 11 EAP build, and even then it doesn't crash, the software just works, and I never tinker with configuration or anything.
I trust people are in fact having issues, I just can't relate. Maybe it's how I'm using it.
le-mark 58 minutes ago [-]
It’s your install. You aren’t running a consumer machine with all the garbage and bloat ware installed. My wife and I had personal laptops the same hardware level. Mine had a clean windows 10 install I paid some guy to do. Hers wasn’t. Hers became unusable after a year. My kid still uses mine several years later.
Use RuFus (if you are lazy) or manually write it a thumb drive or even just unpack it on your primary drive, launch install.
Here, your fresh and clean (almost, some stuff would get in through the WU if you are running a branded machine) install.
3
CoolCold 15 minutes ago [-]
Well, built in feature of Reset PC will even download fresh iso for you and will boot in fresh install. Optionally you may ask to keep your files too.
the__alchemist 1 hours ago [-]
I worry that things like ads in the start menu/search, OneDrive/Xbox/Office nags etc will morph into full enshittification, and ads you can't get rid of. It hasn't happened to an intolerable degree yet, but seems to be gradually getting worse.
troupo 51 minutes ago [-]
> I have all of the annoying stuff disabled
How long did it take you to disable everything, and in you many places? Are you sure you've disabled everything, or just learned to live with it (e.g. Win+S search defaults to first searching the internet, and only then showing local results)
Fabricio20 24 minutes ago [-]
I will be honest since im with parent here, it took me literally 15m to figure everything out when I reinstalled this week. I just do all the nos on oob, once I get to desktop I uninstall OneDrive (via control panel, etc..), go to settings, activate windows -> disable stuff that I dont want -> customize start menu to my liking (settings button near power button, left-aligned, etc..) -> open start menu and right click uninstall all the apps (whatsapp, netflix, outlook, etc..) -> then go to explorer and change the defaults to my preferences and lastly open gpedit and disable all the AI and cloud search stuff under administrative templates (they are all there and have clean descriptions!!).
maccard 26 minutes ago [-]
I can make the same complaint about any Linux desktop environment.
If I’ve learned to live with it it’s not annoying stuff anymore.
pessimizer 1 minutes ago [-]
In all Linux desktop environments, you have to spend a bunch of time cleaning out its adware, surveillance, work around its desire to use a remote password to access your local computer, and somehow suppress its desire to move your local files to the cloud?
This is not actually true?
justsomehnguy 23 minutes ago [-]
Not the parent, but last year I moved on to Win11 on a new laptop.
It took... about a week at worst, I think.
Just run the bundled distribution to look how it goes, note the things you need to throw out, do a clean install (see my other comment in this thread), apply the tweaks.
The longest one was to disable the effing F23 (aka Copilot) key, PowerToys weren't helping so I used the trusted SharpKeys, which I already use for 10+ years to remap idiotic PrtSc to ContextMenu on ThinkPads.
Sure, I'm not your average computer illiterate Joe, but if we are talking about a comparison with a typical *nix distribution... like in a sibling comment there is "Not everyone knows how to do that" about tweaking, but the same applies to *nix too.
croes 59 minutes ago [-]
> I have all of the annoying stuff disabled, and basically have installed nothing besides the standard productivity/office tools.
Not everyone knows how to do that
thesuperbigfrog 19 minutes ago [-]
>> Microsoft keeps adding stuff into Windows we don't want
Of course they are.
Copilot and Recall are not what most users want, but they are what Microsoft wants:
I love that the writer complains about things Microsoft keeps adding that we don't need, and then goes on to recommend more things we don't need, lol
speerer 1 hours ago [-]
Beyond the headline, this is an interesting article listing ideas for useful features people might want.
34679 27 minutes ago [-]
Here's what Windows needs:
When a user opens a 2nd file explorer, it should open next to the existing one, not on top of it.
Roark66 59 minutes ago [-]
7 is really good. I do something similar. I'm forced to use a windows laptop supplied by a client to connect to their network (and I shouldn't connect between my home devices and it). So I'm often working on Windows.
I tend to have (on two monitors):
Built in monitor, any desktop- MŚ teams, Outlook and Notepad.
Second (4K) monitor,
Desktop 1-tmux in WSL.
Desktop 2-Web browsers
Desktop 3-spare
Desktop 4-My Ide (10+ Windows if vscode with WSL plugin)
Desktop 5-Excel,Word etc.
AutoHotKey let's me change between desktops with win+X key (where X is a number) and moving an app to a specific desktop is only win+shift+X away.
I've been using a similar setup on Linux for many years, except outlook/teams is replaced by my Cctv window. The only problem is on Linux if you have focus let's say in desktop 1 monitor 2 (tmux in alactity), you them do win+2 to go to screen 2 into a browser(still monitor 2), you then press win+2 hoping to go back to desktop 1 alacritty... Your focus ends up on monitor 1 in the Cctv window.
This never happens on Windows. When I go back to a desktop X the focus stays with where I've left it.
Grimeton 32 minutes ago [-]
There are ways to get rid of all the nonsense by uninstalling it via Powershell or by blocking it via GPO/Registry. But the main issue here is that Microsoft changes the settings every now and then and all of a sudden, something that you considered disabled is fully enabled again.
Other issue is that some things just cannot be uninstalled. Because of the GDPR I've seen companies run AppLocker & Co. to block Microsoft sh*t from running that they couldn't get a hold of otherwise.
I can see ReactOS getting a lot more developers and a huge budget if this goes on...
shawnz 34 minutes ago [-]
Regarding point 9, there is an audio device switcher in the pop-up panel you get when you click the speaker icon
tiberriver256 32 minutes ago [-]
Maybe this'll be the year everyone moves to Linux!
megaloblasto 1 hours ago [-]
I know this upsets some HN people (for some reason), but all these things are possible with linux.
Edit: lol, I got down voted. Do you think these things are not possible on linux?
stanac 51 minutes ago [-]
One annoying thing about linux are drivers. They often don't work out of the box. E.g. fingerprint reader, screen brightness, audio too low. I tried multiple distros on multiple laptops, there is almost always some fiddling needed.
On the other hand corp forced me to move from pc to mac, hardware is awesome but I need to get used to software (keyboard shortcuts), it looks and feels like linux with drivers that actually work (I know it technically it's not linux, I'm just saying that it feels like it, probably due to history of unix/bsd/linux).
hereme888 22 minutes ago [-]
The other day my Windows locked behind an advertisement for Microsoft's backup services, trying to trick me into surrendering all my private data to their servers.
They even added a typical dark pattern that on clicking "No" another "But... We recommend it, are you sure?" appeared.
What a disgrace to push such an ad on people's computers. This abusive behavior is their company culture.
user3939382 35 minutes ago [-]
It took me hours with Windows 10 and PowerShell to scrub all the crap out of the default OS install. I don’t even want to know what that process would be with 11.
graemep 1 hours ago [-]
A lot of this works fine on KDE, but Linux and BSDs provides multiple desktop environments and people can pick what they like. MS cannot really do this as it relies on being the standard GUI everyone knows. Even things like the taskbar being in the "wrong" place confuses a significant proportion of people.
As for stuff "we" do not need, who is "we"? MS needs the stuff, which really means some decision maker within MS is persuaded it is needed, and their incentives do align all the well with those of users.
nailer 1 hours ago [-]
I just wish they sold windows professional. Like an actual Windows professional that has no ads because you paid extra money. You can buy a Microsoft surface device and Windows is still filled with adware because there’s no professional version of Windows.
falcor84 1 hours ago [-]
I suppose it's not exactly what you're looking for, but note that you can literally buy Windows 11 Pro -
That has been a thing since at least Windows 2000 Professional...
I don't know the exact crapware situation, but at least with pro you have access to group policies, and then you can usually disable the crap. (still ridiculous)
but it does show how the suggestion for a more expensive version of a thing without ads is niche at best, since even the people complaining about it aren't aware when it does exist.
tialaramex 57 minutes ago [-]
OneDrive is so persistent that on locked down systems where the whole concept is that the machine can only take exams, there's still a problem where Microsoft are like "Oh, do you want OneDrive?". No. Fucking no. They can't have OneDrive, they aren't entitled to OneDrive, and you couldn't install OneDrive if they said "Yes". Fuck off.
exabrial 35 minutes ago [-]
Basically GM and Ford as well.
martin-t 38 minutes ago [-]
One colleague started installing the unofficial Tiny11 "edition" of Windows 11 on some work computers, especially VMs.
I don't know how much was trimmed down but ads are gone and reportedly it has better performance.
gorjusborg 1 hours ago [-]
And that we do not want.
Razengan 1 hours ago [-]
Well, as much as I like to join in taking a dump on Microsoft, this sort of thing is inevitable, in any OS, any software, any product:
The longer a product goes, the more features it gets (or loses) that some people want, some people don't.
It would be nice to have an easy to modify checklist of what stuff you want to keep/remove on a default installation.
I think the current state of iOS is pretty good in regards to that: You get a somewhat-sane default pack out of the box, and you can remove crap like Freeform and Journal (which should have been part of Notes to begin with) and install other Apple apps from the App Store if you need em.
vrighter 34 minutes ago [-]
AI in notepad is not something that should be in an OS. Any OS. The os is supposed to be there to sit between your applications and your hardware. It's supposed to offer some sort of interface for you to operate your machine.
Having arbitrary features that connect to arbitrary web-services which could extremely easily be an optional application is not fine.
Razengan 27 minutes ago [-]
> The os is supposed to …
That ship has long sailed my good sir/sirette.
Rendered at 13:21:49 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
Today’s versions of Windows seem less respectful of the user. Microsoft is treating Windows as a platform to advertise Microsoft’s products rather than as strictly a productivity tool. Even if a lot of users these days use computers more like entertainment and communication devices rather than productivity tools, software should still get out of the user’s way. Software should shut up and do what the user commands.
Unfortunately there are other software systems that have the same philosophy. Google constantly nags me regarding logging in and switching to Chrome. Even macOS has gotten a lot more nag screens in the past decade compared to the glory years of Jobs-era Mac OS X.
It’s amazing how so many organizations are dependent on Windows, macOS, and Google for their productivity, yet these platforms have become more annoying to use over the years, becoming impediments to productivity.
Exactly the same here (and I've said so many times over the past 20 or so years). Sure, the W2K UI could be tarted up a little bit but no major functional changes. With security and hardware updates I'd be completely happy.
Microsoft's behavior forced me into migrating to Linux (and in that I'm not alone).
But they won’t, because they don’t care.
I bought a new iPad the other day. I've got notifications in System Preferences advertising five different services I don't want, plus more notifications in individual apps (like an advertisement for the Apple TV subscription in the TV app, which is not the same thing as the subscription service). I don't want Apple TV, Apple-filtered News, whatever the Apple exercise thing is, or the Apple Cultural Experience: just the hardware and software I bought.
Meanwhile Microsoft kept showing me upsells in File Explorer to move this or that to OneDrive despite me already paying for the damn thing.
I’ve made my decisions, leave me alone!
Perhaps you and GP aren't really the target market for their products. Part of why, after many years of Slackware and Arch Linux on desktops I assembled myself, compiling kernel modules, etc etc, I decided to pay Apple for the past decade is exactly because I don't want to make these decisions.
Frankly I pay Apple for the following things, in order or descending importance to me:
1) Decisions / sensible defaults / ecosystem / walled garden;
2) MagSafe cable so I don't trip on cords and/or damage my machines;
3) The subjective feeling that their corporate interests are more aligned with mine than other players in the market, viz. privacy etc.;
4) Pixel density;
5) Well-built aluminum bodies;
6) Large trackpads;
To be fair, I'm not saying the prompting for things I don't want (e.g. I don't consume any media services or exercise stuff) isn't annoying, but it seems to only happen once I switch devices every few years. It's been useful for me to discover services I wouldn't know about otherwise, which I now am a customer of, such as iCloud.
I guess I just wish they weren’t so… pushy. As a consumer, I get nudged by all kinds of companies every day, so I get a little… overstimulated (?) by it all, and sometimes just want to use it the way that I want to use the device.
I’m also the guy that has turned off notifications for almost every phone app, because it feels invasive of my brain space… I want to decide when I will use an app and when I won’t.
Now the fact that fifteen years later that iCloud is only 5GB for free is inexcusable
There’s a reason why their stock price is through the roof. Companies in the US have their first and foremost duty towards Shareholders, and only shareholders. This is not an opinion, I am speaking legally.[1] And what the shareholders want is for the company to squeeze out every dollar it possibly can from its products.
[1] Shareholder Primacy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_v._Ford_Motor_Co.
Hi, as former member of a board of directors, and also as a current shareholder in a company, you are wrong. The fiduciary duties owed to the company arise from the legal relationship between the directors and the company directed and controlled by them. The fiduciary duties owed to the shareholders do not arise from that legal relationship.
Try again when you actually graduate law school. Maybe then you can speak legally about something I do PROFESSIONALLY.
I did not say I am a lawyer - but that is a Supreme Court case any lawyer would be happy to cite in the court of law.
On the plus side of Windows added features, PowerToys has some nice tools!
For the audio device switching mentioned in the article: Try downloading Soundswitch: Fixed this for me. (Note: There's a scammy-looking software that also goes by this name; be careful!)
This is about as dark-pattern-ey as it gets. Pretty sure I'm going to be making the jump to Linux for my next machine, or on this one if W10 becomes unusable after EoL.
There’s probably a way but I haven’t troubleshooted a Windows problem since 2008.
I immediately started to think: but old behavior was so simple and obvious, what is there to change? The I right clicked to check. Immediately was hit with the wtf changes. Why? Why MS?
I use it to keep my apps (tools) in. I use the apps (hammer, saw, screwdriver etc.) to get a job done, then I put them away. The job of the OS isn't to recommend that I use Hammer v2.0 or to update my toolbox to the latest version.
The OS is, or should be, out of my way.
I agree with others here: Windows 2000 was peak OS for me!
I'm also more willing to solve problems in Linux. Because I primarily write web software, I've also found "Linux debugging" skills more useful to learn than "Windows debugging skills" - the Linux skills tend to translate almost directly to my career. And it usually feels worthwhile to contribute good bug reports/fixes upstream; in stark contrast to Windows OS issues (and some of the more popular Windows software).
It's possible that you are just experiencing friction moving to Linux because you are used to MS.
Easily writing and launching software is something Linux excels at.
I don't want to go into the details, but I regularly experience UX problems in Ubuntu. Even things like reading/writing a USB port requires sudo, or editing system config files, which is wild to me. And adding a trailing newline to the config file in question will prevent your GUI from booting. Adding an item to the PATH is a combo of unintuitive, or filled with incorrect instructions (Including Go's home page CAO yesterday...).
Or, software I write can't be launched without using having the user go to the CLI, or creating a GUI-specific config file and placing it in a certain location. This leads to the line I hear regularly "You should publish your software on the distro-specific app store", or "You should only install software from the app store". Which immediately leads me to think I have a use-case mismatch.
I use NixOS and I don't have UX problems because my UX is fully customized to work exactly how I want.
Plus, for every but of friction you may experience in Linix, the cons of Microsoft are much greater. They have no concern for your privacy, and exploit their workers and the environment.
Last time I used Microsoft (~8 years ago) I couldn't get that malware OS to stop forcefully suggesting and using their cloud services automatically.
There are many things that MS does that are just unacceptable.
Now do the same in Windows. Messing with system files, without knowing what you are doing, is a recipe to disaster.
I think I didn't communicate something clearly: My concern isn't that misediting a system file causes disaster. It's that you need to edit system files to do routine things.
On Windows, the solution is simple: USB/serial works without editing system files or requiring launching the program via CLI with sudo. You double-click the program in GUI, and it works.
If you absolutely refuse to handle your own system's security ("Enter a password to do something on my own computer? No thank you!"), you really should leave the management of your computer to Microsoft, and ask their permission personally to view your own files. They'll faceid you, consider the merits of your request, and decide how much access you should have to your own life.
In that way you can avoid sudo, or the concept of a multiuser computer entirely.
As for the last one, it is simply untrue. Linux supports as much as or more hardware than Windows. Windows will more likely support the latest greatest stuff because people don't release hardware specs. But once Linux catches up, it keeps that hardware compatibility longer, and can always be reverted back to by using an old kernel even a decade or two after a piece of hardware is dropped.
Just the fact that installing user software still requires sudo in most distributions is very irritating to me.
Hence the rise of `curl <something> | bash` I think
Most non-gamers probably only need a web browser, so I think a lot of people could get away with this (maybe with a distro that pre-installs drivers they need).
XP/Window 7 were peak end-user OS's, once you got over the Fisher-Price look of XP.
The constraints you had in terms of user-UI were a massive advantage in terms of user-understanding. Now we're in a stupid era of the browser is the UI and everything is non-conformant with everything else in terms of looks/expectation/behaviour.
The version of MS-Office prior to the stupid ribbon-shit were also the peak versions. It's all been downhill since then with Windows ME and Windows 8 being exceptionally low points.
I'm about to shift to FreeBSD as my main driver as the Linux distribution fragmentation and wane in reliability/dependability and repeatability has given me the shits (how many apt-get equivalents are there now...?) I used to like Debian back in the day but now it and its derivatives (e.g. Ubuntu) give me the shits and Red-Hat and Fedora likewise, and Debian itself won't even install a working desktop. Apparently raising a bug for Fedora gets put into "Closed - not a bug" because IBM don't give a shit about quality anymore - even though the install resulted in an unbootable OS and I spent hours raising a proper bug report. Pop-OS was reasonable, but scaling where some apps have both big and little font sizes intermixed still mean its a clusterfuck of a kludge.
It's 2025 and apparently trying to mount network shares in fstab before the network interface is up isn't a bug. It's still not year of the desktop for Linux.
FWIW, I liked Apple in the 1980's - not so much since then.
I still appreciate all the contributions of those individuals out there is both GNU/Linux and the BSD'd trying to make the world a better place for themselves/others and sharing the results.
I don’t like that there are 3+ ways of checking if a value is null tho.
Some of the remaining warts are because it is wedded to the .NET CLR, so if the CLR says you can't do that then, too bad C# can't do that. It would not be practical to do anything about those.
There is value in a language with minimal syntax like Go, but it's not the only choice. C# is a pretty nice language overall, even with all the warts. But every language people actually use does have ugly stuff somewhere.
- https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/whats-new/cs...
- https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/whats-new/cs...
- https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/whats-new/cs...
- https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/whats-new/cs...
- https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/whats-new/cs...
We're discussing Windows and all its ad-ware/invasive changes, and someone brings up C# without giving a real explanation or examples.
The last few C# versions brought primary constructors, collection expressions, records(!), tons of Span<T> improvements/support, etc. I just flicked through the list, and nothing that stuck out to me as being bloated.
The main bloat C# has is older stuff that you really shouldn't be using anymore (e.g. ArrayList, dynamic, Thread, delegate keyword, etc).
I brought up C# because the article discusses a Microsoft Windows design philosophy that I feel is also reflected in their approach to C#. It’s a Microsoft thing.
I agree with you that the examples you mention were great additions to the language! But I still think the C# design team has some seriously screwed up priorities. My theory is that this one year cycle they are on is hampering their ability to make changes (like sum types) that require more than a year of work.
All it takes is a method signature like:
It's a bit of a Yoneda embedding like way of forcing it in to the language, but hey it works.They continue to fiddle with design approaches to solve this. See https://github.com/dotnet/csharplang/blob/main/meetings/2025...
Am I the only one who doesn't see it? I have all of the annoying stuff disabled, and basically have installed nothing besides the standard productivity/office tools. For me it's just a clean setup that stays out of my way. I'm running an 11 EAP build, and even then it doesn't crash, the software just works, and I never tinker with configuration or anything.
I trust people are in fact having issues, I just can't relate. Maybe it's how I'm using it.
Go to https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-download/windows11
Download ISO
Use RuFus (if you are lazy) or manually write it a thumb drive or even just unpack it on your primary drive, launch install.
Here, your fresh and clean (almost, some stuff would get in through the WU if you are running a branded machine) install. 3
How long did it take you to disable everything, and in you many places? Are you sure you've disabled everything, or just learned to live with it (e.g. Win+S search defaults to first searching the internet, and only then showing local results)
But to answer your question, about 45 seconds with https://github.com/Raphire/Win11Debloat
> or just learned to live with it
If I’ve learned to live with it it’s not annoying stuff anymore.
This is not actually true?
It took... about a week at worst, I think.
Just run the bundled distribution to look how it goes, note the things you need to throw out, do a clean install (see my other comment in this thread), apply the tweaks.
The longest one was to disable the effing F23 (aka Copilot) key, PowerToys weren't helping so I used the trusted SharpKeys, which I already use for 10+ years to remap idiotic PrtSc to ContextMenu on ThinkPads.
Sure, I'm not your average computer illiterate Joe, but if we are talking about a comparison with a typical *nix distribution... like in a sibling comment there is "Not everyone knows how to do that" about tweaking, but the same applies to *nix too.
Not everyone knows how to do that
Of course they are.
Copilot and Recall are not what most users want, but they are what Microsoft wants:
https://youtu.be/Ag1AKIl_2GM?t=57
When a user opens a 2nd file explorer, it should open next to the existing one, not on top of it.
I tend to have (on two monitors): Built in monitor, any desktop- MŚ teams, Outlook and Notepad.
Second (4K) monitor, Desktop 1-tmux in WSL. Desktop 2-Web browsers Desktop 3-spare Desktop 4-My Ide (10+ Windows if vscode with WSL plugin) Desktop 5-Excel,Word etc.
AutoHotKey let's me change between desktops with win+X key (where X is a number) and moving an app to a specific desktop is only win+shift+X away.
I've been using a similar setup on Linux for many years, except outlook/teams is replaced by my Cctv window. The only problem is on Linux if you have focus let's say in desktop 1 monitor 2 (tmux in alactity), you them do win+2 to go to screen 2 into a browser(still monitor 2), you then press win+2 hoping to go back to desktop 1 alacritty... Your focus ends up on monitor 1 in the Cctv window.
This never happens on Windows. When I go back to a desktop X the focus stays with where I've left it.
Other issue is that some things just cannot be uninstalled. Because of the GDPR I've seen companies run AppLocker & Co. to block Microsoft sh*t from running that they couldn't get a hold of otherwise.
I can see ReactOS getting a lot more developers and a huge budget if this goes on...
Edit: lol, I got down voted. Do you think these things are not possible on linux?
On the other hand corp forced me to move from pc to mac, hardware is awesome but I need to get used to software (keyboard shortcuts), it looks and feels like linux with drivers that actually work (I know it technically it's not linux, I'm just saying that it feels like it, probably due to history of unix/bsd/linux).
They even added a typical dark pattern that on clicking "No" another "But... We recommend it, are you sure?" appeared.
What a disgrace to push such an ad on people's computers. This abusive behavior is their company culture.
As for stuff "we" do not need, who is "we"? MS needs the stuff, which really means some decision maker within MS is persuaded it is needed, and their incentives do align all the well with those of users.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-ie/d/windows-11-pro/dg7gmgf0d8h...
but it does show how the suggestion for a more expensive version of a thing without ads is niche at best, since even the people complaining about it aren't aware when it does exist.
I don't know how much was trimmed down but ads are gone and reportedly it has better performance.
The longer a product goes, the more features it gets (or loses) that some people want, some people don't.
It would be nice to have an easy to modify checklist of what stuff you want to keep/remove on a default installation.
I think the current state of iOS is pretty good in regards to that: You get a somewhat-sane default pack out of the box, and you can remove crap like Freeform and Journal (which should have been part of Notes to begin with) and install other Apple apps from the App Store if you need em.
Having arbitrary features that connect to arbitrary web-services which could extremely easily be an optional application is not fine.
That ship has long sailed my good sir/sirette.