I was buying a lot of custom, fully populated hobby PCBs and the price has skyrocketed so much that it’s too cost prohibitive to order from JLCPCB. You can order PCBs from Oshpark however the boards don’t come fully populated with all of your components so you would need to order from like Mouser and surface mount all of them yourself (for my application)
To put it in perspective, used to pay about $85-$90 for 10 completed boards —- shipped —- now it is $316ish for 10 boards shipped.
matthewaveryusa 8 hours ago [-]
Good. Deminimis is what allows low effort arbitrage of sales straight from foreign countries to the detriment of any local business engaged in anything beyond drop shipping with maybe a few extra steps. We really don't need subsidized trinkets going from ali express to landfills faster than greased lightning.
PaulRobinson 10 minutes ago [-]
That's not the whole picture. Everything on eBay, Shopify, Etsy, that weird online shop that sells that weird thing you're into from London or Prague, whatever, all of it is now going to cost more money for everyone in America if it originates outside of the US.
Yes, the majority by volume is from China, and from large trash sites that rightly aren't sustainable...
... but the second order effects on small businesses and consumers who enjoy buying from them.
Cheer2171 7 hours ago [-]
Sure, tell me more how it is awesome that I can't order $100 of dollars of small bulk electronic components for my hobby work direct from Huaqiangbei and get them here in a week. There is no US manufacturer replacement. Instead I have to turn to an import/export middleman also sourcing from Huaqiangbei but at 4x cost. In the eloquent words of our dear leader: SAD!
ants_everywhere 8 hours ago [-]
It's not clear that adding bureaucracy to help local businesses at the expense of the consumer is a net win
evidencetamper 7 hours ago [-]
It's also not clear that allowing factories that underpay exploited workers to ship stuff over is a net win
ants_everywhere 7 hours ago [-]
I think with all economic policy it's good to weigh the pros and cons and have a serious discussion of them.
What I object to is that in practice people just side with their politics "team" like in sports and create post-hoc justifications for policy created for unrelated reasons.
I'm in favor of evidence-based trade policy, but this isn't that unfortunately. The closest thing we have to evidence-based policy is the economic consensus, and the current administration is making a big show of disagreeing with the consensus for non-evidence-based reasons.
evidencetamper 6 hours ago [-]
It is impossible to establish causality in complex economic systems to be able to have evidence based decisions.
The current economic direction is not a consensus. The Western democracies are increasingly politically polarized and economically volatile.
Between the many different crises (unaffordable real estate, populational collapse, unsustainable environmental practices and global warming, increasing inequality, hollowing out of small and medium sized cities, and the list goes on), it is very difficult to justify the status quo.
maxerickson 5 hours ago [-]
There's also not really an objective outcome for a given policy, because you don't have a single grouping with aligned preferences.
You can estimate the impact objectively, but not whether that impact is good or bad.
ants_everywhere 5 hours ago [-]
If you don't like democracies or science then what is your proposed solution?
evidencetamper 4 hours ago [-]
That's an unfortunate and charged statement that misrepresents what I said.
A fundamental aspect of science is rigor. And a fundamental aspect of democracy is opposition.
RobotToaster 3 hours ago [-]
Your right, it's obviously much better to give money to bezos' warehouses that underpay exploited workers instead.
mmcwilliams 7 hours ago [-]
The alternative here is the exploited worker will no longer have any job. Doesn't seem like that is a legitimate concern for their well-being.
gruez 7 hours ago [-]
But it's not like as if ending de minimis would mean those goods will stop coming over. It still will, just through brick and mortar retailers and amazon FBA.
RobotToaster 7 hours ago [-]
This is just a subsidy for American warehouses like amazon, who just act as middle men, making cheap crap slightly less cheap crap.
gruez 7 hours ago [-]
As opposed to the status quo of "this is just a subsidy for aliexpress/temu merchants, making cheap crap slightly cheaper"?
yibg 21 minutes ago [-]
Why is it a subsidy? It’s just a lack of an artificial barrier.
marxism 17 minutes ago [-]
I want to weigh in here because I see comments focusing on how these products are useless trash. I think that's missing the point.
This wealthy engineer mindset is too literal. The AI-generated photos and fake reviews aren't bugs. They're features. They let the poor American with $100 of disposable income pretend they found a way to get an Apple Watch for $11. Just for a few days, they get to believe it might be real. When it arrives and it's crap, they knew it would be. But they got to play the fantasy.
TEMU's tagline is "Shop like a billionaire." I want you to really think about that. Marketers test hundreds of combinations to find what resonates. TEMU probably has thousands of marketers. They've tested millions of possible hooks. Millions. And this is what won. "Shop like a billionaire" is the message that resonated above all others.
They're not scamming people. They're delivering exactly what they're selling, which is the experience of feeling like you could have nice things.
Twenty years ago you could go to a matinee movie for a dollar. Two hours of escapism for a dollar. That product doesn't exist anymore. Theaters decided to serve a different customer base. They went upmarket. But people still want cheap escapism. Now it's $1-3 on TEMU to get that same escape. You browse, you dream, you wait for the package. It's entertainment.
TEMU is making things people want.
whatshisface 8 minutes ago [-]
Wire $1,000 to my bank account and I will wire $1,000,000 (or equivalent in financial experience product) back in just a few days. Only one condition - you have to explain what happened to you afterwards.
perihelions 7 hours ago [-]
What's the moral valence differentiating a "local business" from a local drop-shipper? What really *is* a business selling imported goods—if not a drop-shipper with a storefront?
Bold to hold contempt for free-market capitalism, when it's made your society so staggeringly wealthy, your concern of the day is literally worrying about landfills filling up with surplus wealth. Find some perspective.
bluGill 7 hours ago [-]
a local business needs to select what to sell. This is a valuable service.
falcor84 7 hours ago [-]
Paying someone to reduce my own ability to choose? How does this work? Do they provide the most value if they offer just a single drop-shipped item that they believe I would want?
Wouldn't I just get better value from an independent review mechanism?
bluGill 2 hours ago [-]
How many near identical choices do you need? How muc time do you want to spend evaluating all those options. Someone else to narrow it down saves you a lot of effort.
when the differences don't matter or are things you areenot aware of this is more important.
hypeatei 7 hours ago [-]
I'm glad to see people in this thread saying that this will be an environmental win while we're ending subsidies for "Unreliable, Foreign-Controlled Energy Sources"[0] and "Reinvigorating America’s Beautiful Clean Coal Industry"[1]
There is no good here. I don't when it became popular or acceptable to restrict free trade and ignore reality.
>I'm glad to see people in this thread saying that this will be an environmental win while we're ending subsidies for "Unreliable, Foreign-Controlled Energy Sources"[0] and "Reinvigorating America’s Beautiful Clean Coal Industry"[1]
That statement is pointless. Anything in isolation can be "good", just like if someones house burned down you could say that having insurance was "good" but it ignores the bigger picture.
tempodox 45 minutes ago [-]
“Beautiful Clean Coal Industry”? Seriously?
loloquwowndueo 7 hours ago [-]
Just remember it’s not just crap from Shein, Temu, Ali express that’s being hit. Your former “friends” and long-time trade partners are also being impacted by this blanket policy.
What do you mean by putting "friends" in scare quotes?
ricardo81 7 hours ago [-]
Not GP but presumably implying that is not how you treat friends and/or a policy targetting China has collateral damage.
xethos 7 hours ago [-]
> a policy targetting China has collateral damage.
It is still a policy from someone threatening economic annexation of Canada. He's dropped the rhetoric, but I doubt he's given up on the concept. "Targeting China" is a very kind, possibly even forgetful, way of phrasing it.
Believe it or not, not everything is about Canada.
Trump hates China. His boss told him to.
xethos 3 hours ago [-]
No, but it hardly seems irrelevant when root comment links a Canadian Broadcast Corporation story about Canadian Mom'n'Pop stores
loloquwowndueo 6 hours ago [-]
Not everything is about Canada, no.
Mexico has also been disproportionately impacted by these protectionist policies. And that’s just the immediate neighbours with which the US has pursued trade agreements for decades.
loloquwowndueo 7 hours ago [-]
Justin Trudeau said it best:
the U.S. launched the trade war against Canada, “their closest partner and ally, their closest friend. At the same time, they’re talking about working positively with Russia, appeasing Vladimir Putin, a lying, murderous dictator. Make that make sense.”
pimlottc 6 hours ago [-]
Ah, I was thinking of friends on an individual basis, not in geopolitical terms.
Waterluvian 7 hours ago [-]
I can’t speak for all Canadians but all the ones I know do not see America as a friend or partner anymore. The entire tone has changed in a way I’ve never before experienced.
I think the thing some Americans mess themselves up with is thinking that the world perceives their domestic politics the same way they do. From our level of abstraction, America voted and Americans decided the country is going to be an anti-science, protectionist menace.
IAmBroom 7 hours ago [-]
I can't speak for all Americans, but you're not wrong.
Protect yourself. If and when we have enough good governance to be friends again, we'll need your friendship.
Waterluvian 6 hours ago [-]
Yeah, that’s probably the other palpable sentiment worth sharing: Canadians badly want to be best friends with Americans. It’s been a very regrettable cultural divorce.
mindslight 6 hours ago [-]
Seconded. But also, don't forget that the same exact shit can happen in Canada as well. Especially with a national threat actor now physically next door (little green men, etc).
solox3 6 hours ago [-]
Which straw broke the camel's back. Was it insulting the prime minister as a governor, threatening to annex the territory, threatening to "redraw borders", or calling Canadians "nasty people"?
Waterluvian 6 hours ago [-]
I think if we could point to a specific pivotal moment, it was when tariffs were first announced and Trudeau came on TV and discussed the difficult times ahead, the relationship as we knew it being over, and the announcement of counter tariffs and other plans. Then the Premiers announced things like removing American alcohol from shelves (Jack Daniel’s said this week that Canadian sales fell 62%), and shutting down various historical courtesies. For me at least that’s the moment it went from confusion, anger, and frustration to coordinated effort to take a defensive stance against the new aggressor nation.
The petty child-like name calling from the American president was mostly just an evocation of “I’m embarrassed for you.”
627467 5 hours ago [-]
It's funny to see so much ideological incoherence:
> we should consume local produce, is more sustainable and supports local communities
> what's your carbon footprint?! You fly around in jets 3 times a year?!
> let's buy 30c disposable crap from across the world while essentially subsidizing advanced industrialization of societies completely disconnected from our own
mindslight 4 hours ago [-]
At least it's possible to tease out some nuance between those topics. Unlike all the people still simping for the Manchurian candidate's immediately self-defeating policies - let's compete with China through stiff import taxes that directly hurt American businesses, let's be strong by alienating our allies, let's fix the market for manual labor by arresting individual illegal immigrants while giving passes to big businesses employing them at scale, let's fix inflation and government overreach by printing $5T of new money and spending it on unaccountable jackboots. It's perversely amazing how this whole movement continues to run on empty spectacles and identity politics. When it finally burns through its fervor, all of the existing problems are still going to be there, plus a whole host of new problems.
mindslight 5 hours ago [-]
The comments still focusing on Shein/Temu/Ali are wild. De minimis for China ended back on May 2nd. From what I saw on Aliexpress, it wasn't even a speed bump - the prices just went up, with "customs charges included". I've been receiving orders just fine.
Trump's policies are big on tough talk while actually having the opposite effects of the marketing. High import taxes hurt the pre-imported selection available from domestic retailers, as sellers have to pay the tax ahead of the sale and navigate the uncertainty that the rates might change in the future. Whereas direct-from-China goods already have cash in hand to pay the tariffs, and the only uncertainty is in the few days between purchase and arrival at customs. I expect to be buying many more things direct from Aliexpress, as the tariffs set in, domestic inventory is exhausted, and domestic-seller prices creep upwards.
Furthermore, the high tariffs on China do encourage investments in factories. Specifically, Chinese investment in factories outside of China, for final assembly of products. Investing in the United States would not be prudent, with the environment of political instability. So these policies are effectively strengthening China's relationships with other countries.
Never mind that many of the companies still known for manufacturing quality goods do so in other western countries. If the goal was really to oppose China, then it should have been time to pull together with our allies - not to levy import taxes to keep them (price-) uncompetitive with Chinese products, while alienating them with hostile rhetoric. Ultimately, our adversaries couldn't have dreamed of more favorable policies.
DisjointedHunt 29 minutes ago [-]
The de-minimus exception on China was dropped in May. China is 75% of exceptions.
This simply expires the exception for the remaining 25%.
djoldman 6 hours ago [-]
In a world with no friction, one would want tariffs to apply to all goods. The de minimis exemption dealt with the fact that it was a PITA to do all the paperwork etc. that accompanies a tariff.
Obviously the main problem is that tariffs do not lead to positive future outcomes for the country levying them.
bananapub 8 hours ago [-]
fascinating how the reporting doesn't clarify that it's not just a bunch of busy work and a tax on Americans, but that the US didn't even bother making the system exist before introducing the rules. from last week:
> “Key questions remain unresolved, particularly regarding how and by whom customs duties will be collected in the future, what additional data will be required, and how the data transmission to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection will be carried out,” DHL, the largest shipping provider in Europe, said in a statement.
Good find - it is pretty crazy how this impactful change (I can see the logistics/supply chain subreddits abuzz with this news) isn't at all clearly defined. Per your link:
> They cite ambiguity about what kind of goods are covered by the new rules, and the lack of time to process their implications.
RobotToaster 7 hours ago [-]
Royal mail in the UK had to flat stop accepting parcels to the USA for several days just to have time to put in place a stopgap measure.
I now have to pay an extra £1.50 "administration charge" for every gift I send to a friend in the USA, despite gifts under $100 still being exempt.
linuxftw 7 hours ago [-]
Customarily duties are paid by the importer, often through a broker. How will this be handled for small items? Most likely a business will import products in bulk and pay the duties as normal.
How will it work for small, one off purchases? Well, I don't see how the tax payers are under any obligation to streamline that for people. The net effect will be to buy from US suppliers/importers, not directly from overseas.
IAmGraydon 8 hours ago [-]
It’s worse than that. After they realized that they had no system to support their idiotic plan, they tried to make it every other country’s problem by requiring that the vendor making the sale (in the other country) collect the tax and remit it to the US before the package gets here. Previously, tariffs were collected in the US at the port of entry or on delivery for smaller packages, and the sender didn’t have to worry about collecting them. This change is what caused all of the foreign postal services to halt service to the US.
7 hours ago [-]
caseysoftware 8 hours ago [-]
Seems like a positive development from an enviromental point of view.. less low quality crap from Shein and Temu means less energy shipping it and less garbage later. Win win.
Cheer2171 7 hours ago [-]
Sure, tell me more how it is awesome that I can't order $100 of dollars of small bulk electronic components for my hobby work direct from Huaqiangbei and get them here in a week. There is no US manufacturer replacement. Instead I have to turn to an import/export middleman also sourcing from Huaqiangbei but at 4x cost to me.
The environment cost is higher with the middleman "small business" because they need their own logistics (likely Amazon). So instead of a carrier driving from the boat to USPS/OnTrac, it goes into the warehouses at Amazon. Wow! Thanks! World saved! In the eloquent words of our dear leader: SAD!
cosmicgadget 5 hours ago [-]
I don't understand, can't they ship as they do now and your hobby simply got a bit more expensive?
In any event, volumewise I presume Ali does more environmental damage than hobby electronics being shipped through Amazon.
withinboredom 7 hours ago [-]
Just think of all the American robot jobs this will produce for our AI overlords! More people than ever will be able to stay home and fuel the underground drug trade and/or porn industry: tax free!
6 hours ago [-]
HarHarVeryFunny 7 hours ago [-]
If people need clothes they are going to buy clothes, and it makes little difference (other than cost to American consumer) whether it's direct from Shein/etc or bought off Amazon from some American manufacturer. For every shipping container full of Chinese product, there are going to be thousands of Amazon delivery trucks out delivering it to people houses.
It's easy to be snobbish about "low quality crap" from Shein etc if you have the money and preference to buy better, but for many people cheap stuff from China, whether bought in Walmart or online, is a godsend.
In terms of jobs and American manufacturers, there is zero demand for clothing sweatshop jobs in America, just as you don't see Americans lining up to replace illegals for low wage crop picking jobs.
All this is doing is making things more expensive for consumers. It's a consumer tax paid for by those who can least afford it.
emptysongglass 7 hours ago [-]
And note that basically no other developed country had this carve-out except the US. People are foaming at the mouths about this issue, but no one pointed a finger at the EU or anywhere else.
signal11 7 hours ago [-]
I’m not sure I follow. The UK and other European countries have equivalents, although the term “de minimis” isn’t used. The UK has a £135 limit, Germany iirc had €150. This is the limit for duty exemptions, VAT still applies.
emptysongglass 7 hours ago [-]
You are correct that technically this is true. The EU has proposed to eliminate the threshold [1] but in practice EU consumers have not seen the benefit of the de minimis practiced by the US: try and import goods below the threshold from outside the EU and you will be hit by a variety of fees [2], making it uneconomical for a consumer to buy anything from outside.
"You are correct that technically this is true" is an odd way to admit your statement was completely false.
emptysongglass 6 hours ago [-]
But it's not. I do not enjoy the benefits of a de minimis as a resident of Denmark. Every policy set in place is to discourage my enjoyment of a de jure de minimis.
If you import goods into this country at below the threshold, you are very likely to pay more than the original price of the good itself. That's the truth. There is de minimis in name only.
5 hours ago [-]
watwut 7 hours ago [-]
EU does not demand foreign company collect their own internal taxes and send them over.
There is a reason shipping stopped.
cyberax 12 minutes ago [-]
> EU does not demand foreign company collect their own internal taxes and send them over.
Let me introduce you to VAT.
emptysongglass 7 hours ago [-]
Look at my other comment. Most countries in the EU levy their own import fees that essentially make any de minimis in practice null.
US consumers have long enjoyed the privilege of actual de minimis, that is straight to their door, no fuss, no additional fees goods below the threshold.
gruez 7 hours ago [-]
Not to mention that giving foreign storefronts a tax advantage is questionable at best. Do we really want to advantage random temu/aliexpress shops at the expense of brick and mortar retailers or even amazon, who at least employ local warehouse workers?
theamk 7 hours ago [-]
A lot of the stuff I am buying in China (electronic components and modules) either does not exists in US shops, or exists with very high markup (3x-5x). And even the stuff that is sold in the US is same Chinese parts, but imported by seller instead of me - so it gets more expensive as well.
I don't think this will give big advantage to US shops, it will mostly be extra expenses for consumers.
gruez 7 hours ago [-]
>A lot of the stuff I am buying in China (electronic components and modules)
Surely you must realize that's a very atypical use case and is dwarfed by people buying cheap clothes and trinkets? Just go to aliexpress or temu right now and see what the items on the front page are. It's not niche components that you can only order from china, it's the same cheap shit you can order off amazon or buy at a local discount retailer.
withinboredom 7 hours ago [-]
No. The US gave it to Walmart instead; local retailers were fucked decades ago.
gruez 7 hours ago [-]
That's why I said "brick and mortar retailers", not "locally owned". Moreover despite whatever misgivings you have about walmart's business practices, they at least have more attachment to the local economy than a random e-store shipping out of shenzhen.
withinboredom 6 hours ago [-]
I don’t have any misgivings. I just read the news.
scotty79 7 hours ago [-]
That depends on how inefficiently substitute item is made. It's entirely possible that making a thing domestically will produce more CO2 than making it far away and shipping it.
Americans are rich and will buy wastefully made expensive item if cheaper alternative is not available.
cosmicgadget 5 hours ago [-]
If they are paying more maybe they'll just buy the "efficiently-made" imported product that has been bulk shipped and tariffed?
ajross 7 hours ago [-]
It's only a win if it's replaced with lower-energy domestic alternatives, though. (Which, needlessly to say, don't remotely exist in almost all cases.) If your argument is that we just don't buy it at all, that's just cheering for economic contraction. I don't think you've thought things through if so.
People think that this just means that their nieces will stop buying junky fast fashion or whatever but that their own clean aescetic lifestyle will be unimpacted. But, no, that avocado toast is bankrolled by your employer and IRA and investment accounts or whatever, none of which are prepared for a 10% GDP contraction (or whatever) because the rubes can't buy their skorts anymore.
Economies are boats. We all sink or swim together.
watwut 7 hours ago [-]
Environmental point of view would welcome wind electricity and generally pretty much any other administration
brookst 7 hours ago [-]
That’s true, but “this policy will be good for the environment” is not the same thing as “the people who instituted this policy are unequivocally good for the environment”.
watwut 7 hours ago [-]
That is true but environmental impact is minimal and likelihood that it is genuin care about environmental even smaller.
brookst 7 hours ago [-]
True, but not everything needs to be about declaring people saints or demons. It’s possible to consider a policy’s actual real world impact without turning it into further proof of your strongly held convictions.
watwut 7 hours ago [-]
The comment was not about the policy’s actual real world impact. That is what I said in my second comment.
That comment was not an attempt to evaluate the policy, bit an attempt to make it sound better due to made up environmental concern.
We are overall already treating too many clearly bad faith arguments as if we all were naive polaynnas. There is no reason to insist on that as mandatory strategy.
cosmicgadget 5 hours ago [-]
How is shipping huge volumes of cheap plastic and single-use items a "made up environmental concern"?
aaron695 7 hours ago [-]
[dead]
ReptileMan 7 hours ago [-]
In Europe I am forced to pay 20-sh percent VAT on shipping + cost of goods when importing and eventually above 150 eur a small customs duty.
The US Deminimis seemed quite generous. No wonder it is removed.
frantathefranta 4 minutes ago [-]
The interesting thing is that at least my shipments from Aliexpress to the EU were always invoiced at $3-5 no matter how much I actually paid for them, circumventing the need to pay tax and duty on packages. I wonder if they’ll do the same now for the US, because my last packages (to the US) were delivered in February and were invoiced at the correct amount (though they were not above the de minimis amount)
sleepyguy 7 hours ago [-]
The consumer and small business lose, all because China couldn't resist taking advantage of the program. Now, simply ordering any item from Canada or Europe that is not available in the US will incur costs that are several times the item's value.
Why not just end De Minimis to China and leave it for the rest of the world that doesn't take advantage of it and reciprocates with their own De Minimis for US Imports?
6 hours ago [-]
the_mitsuhiko 7 hours ago [-]
> all because China couldn't resist taking advantage of the program
It’s not China but businesses. Mostly Chinese businesses but it’s still a lot of individual companies that utilize it.
ReptileMan 7 hours ago [-]
Because then you will order from Kyrgyzstan. The same way EU trade with Kyrgyzstan jumped like 100 fold after the sanctions against Russia.
sleepyguy 7 hours ago [-]
No, because I like to order items from Canada and the EU that will now incur an enormous duty. A t-shirt from Canada or Germany will incur additional fees of $50 -$250 USD, depending on where it is cleared.
There is the law of unintended consequences. Other countries will now make American small business products much more expensive to export. Why would they give a De Minimis to these small businesses when the USA doesn't reciprocate?
You're only thinking about China and not the rest of the World. US small businesses buy things (under $800) from countries like Canada and the EU, and were able to do so because of De Minimus. Canadians could buy things from US small businesses without worrying about duties as long as it was under $500.
Now even the smallest item, even a gift from abroad worth $20, will incur a duty of $50-$250 plus administrative fees from the carrier.
sigwinch 3 minutes ago [-]
I read $80-$200.
AnonC 7 hours ago [-]
This (targeted deminimis removal for China alone) is a difficult problem to solve reliably and complex. As seen with Nvidia chips or other products with export controls, in this case sellers will find a way to buy from China and route it through other countries to benefit from the exemption. In the end, sales by China may not be dented as much as one may believe it to be.
I understand your point that removing it for all is a blunt instrument and causes different problems and harms. Hopefully some policy adjustments are made with some trade offs.
ReptileMan 7 hours ago [-]
Usually taxes are percentage of the value of the import. Where do you get those 250$?
> Other countries will now make American small business products much more expensive to export.
They already are/were. From EU it never made sense to buy anything from small US business - with the absurd shipping costs and VAT.
sleepyguy 6 hours ago [-]
>Usually taxes are percentage of the value of the import. Where do you get those 250$
If the sending country doesn't collect customs duties for the US, then the US will place a flat fee of $250 on the item regardless of its value.
>From EU it never made sense to buy anything from small US business, with the absurd shipping costs and VAT.
Perhaps in your case, but some products are specialized or of much higher quality than can be found in the USA.
6 hours ago [-]
insane_dreamer 6 hours ago [-]
This is one of the very few (only?) moves by this Admin that I agree with. Yes, it's hurts hobbyists ordering from AliExpress, but it's a loophole that has been largely exploited.
nemo44x 7 hours ago [-]
The EU is working on a similar thing. The concept has been exploited by global drop shippers and sites like Temu. Obviously there will be some disruption as everyone adjusts.
maxerickson 7 hours ago [-]
Trade restrictions are mostly stupid (short term restrictions tied to clear objectives can make sense). If local businesses are paying taxes to import goods in bulk, we should alleviate that, not add friction to small transactions.
ReptileMan 7 hours ago [-]
Temu pays vat and import duties in EU.
nemo44x 6 hours ago [-]
No they don’t. But they will soon.
LightBug1 7 hours ago [-]
New Temu marketing to US Customers: "Shop like a hundred-aire !!!"
Rendered at 20:40:40 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
To put it in perspective, used to pay about $85-$90 for 10 completed boards —- shipped —- now it is $316ish for 10 boards shipped.
Yes, the majority by volume is from China, and from large trash sites that rightly aren't sustainable...
... but the second order effects on small businesses and consumers who enjoy buying from them.
What I object to is that in practice people just side with their politics "team" like in sports and create post-hoc justifications for policy created for unrelated reasons.
I'm in favor of evidence-based trade policy, but this isn't that unfortunately. The closest thing we have to evidence-based policy is the economic consensus, and the current administration is making a big show of disagreeing with the consensus for non-evidence-based reasons.
The current economic direction is not a consensus. The Western democracies are increasingly politically polarized and economically volatile.
Between the many different crises (unaffordable real estate, populational collapse, unsustainable environmental practices and global warming, increasing inequality, hollowing out of small and medium sized cities, and the list goes on), it is very difficult to justify the status quo.
You can estimate the impact objectively, but not whether that impact is good or bad.
A fundamental aspect of science is rigor. And a fundamental aspect of democracy is opposition.
This wealthy engineer mindset is too literal. The AI-generated photos and fake reviews aren't bugs. They're features. They let the poor American with $100 of disposable income pretend they found a way to get an Apple Watch for $11. Just for a few days, they get to believe it might be real. When it arrives and it's crap, they knew it would be. But they got to play the fantasy.
TEMU's tagline is "Shop like a billionaire." I want you to really think about that. Marketers test hundreds of combinations to find what resonates. TEMU probably has thousands of marketers. They've tested millions of possible hooks. Millions. And this is what won. "Shop like a billionaire" is the message that resonated above all others.
They're not scamming people. They're delivering exactly what they're selling, which is the experience of feeling like you could have nice things.
Twenty years ago you could go to a matinee movie for a dollar. Two hours of escapism for a dollar. That product doesn't exist anymore. Theaters decided to serve a different customer base. They went upmarket. But people still want cheap escapism. Now it's $1-3 on TEMU to get that same escape. You browse, you dream, you wait for the package. It's entertainment.
TEMU is making things people want.
Bold to hold contempt for free-market capitalism, when it's made your society so staggeringly wealthy, your concern of the day is literally worrying about landfills filling up with surplus wealth. Find some perspective.
Wouldn't I just get better value from an independent review mechanism?
when the differences don't matter or are things you areenot aware of this is more important.
There is no good here. I don't when it became popular or acceptable to restrict free trade and ignore reality.
0: https://www.whitehouse.gov/fact-sheets/2025/07/fact-sheet-pr...
1: https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/04/rein...
see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45074362
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/de-minimis-u-s-canada-endin...
It is still a policy from someone threatening economic annexation of Canada. He's dropped the rhetoric, but I doubt he's given up on the concept. "Targeting China" is a very kind, possibly even forgetful, way of phrasing it.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5071665-trump-ec...
Trump hates China. His boss told him to.
Mexico has also been disproportionately impacted by these protectionist policies. And that’s just the immediate neighbours with which the US has pursued trade agreements for decades.
the U.S. launched the trade war against Canada, “their closest partner and ally, their closest friend. At the same time, they’re talking about working positively with Russia, appeasing Vladimir Putin, a lying, murderous dictator. Make that make sense.”
I think the thing some Americans mess themselves up with is thinking that the world perceives their domestic politics the same way they do. From our level of abstraction, America voted and Americans decided the country is going to be an anti-science, protectionist menace.
Protect yourself. If and when we have enough good governance to be friends again, we'll need your friendship.
The petty child-like name calling from the American president was mostly just an evocation of “I’m embarrassed for you.”
> what's your carbon footprint?! You fly around in jets 3 times a year?!
> let's buy 30c disposable crap from across the world while essentially subsidizing advanced industrialization of societies completely disconnected from our own
Trump's policies are big on tough talk while actually having the opposite effects of the marketing. High import taxes hurt the pre-imported selection available from domestic retailers, as sellers have to pay the tax ahead of the sale and navigate the uncertainty that the rates might change in the future. Whereas direct-from-China goods already have cash in hand to pay the tariffs, and the only uncertainty is in the few days between purchase and arrival at customs. I expect to be buying many more things direct from Aliexpress, as the tariffs set in, domestic inventory is exhausted, and domestic-seller prices creep upwards.
Furthermore, the high tariffs on China do encourage investments in factories. Specifically, Chinese investment in factories outside of China, for final assembly of products. Investing in the United States would not be prudent, with the environment of political instability. So these policies are effectively strengthening China's relationships with other countries.
Never mind that many of the companies still known for manufacturing quality goods do so in other western countries. If the goal was really to oppose China, then it should have been time to pull together with our allies - not to levy import taxes to keep them (price-) uncompetitive with Chinese products, while alienating them with hostile rhetoric. Ultimately, our adversaries couldn't have dreamed of more favorable policies.
This simply expires the exception for the remaining 25%.
Obviously the main problem is that tariffs do not lead to positive future outcomes for the country levying them.
> “Key questions remain unresolved, particularly regarding how and by whom customs duties will be collected in the future, what additional data will be required, and how the data transmission to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection will be carried out,” DHL, the largest shipping provider in Europe, said in a statement.
https://apnews.com/article/us-tariffs-goods-services-suspens...
> They cite ambiguity about what kind of goods are covered by the new rules, and the lack of time to process their implications.
I now have to pay an extra £1.50 "administration charge" for every gift I send to a friend in the USA, despite gifts under $100 still being exempt.
How will it work for small, one off purchases? Well, I don't see how the tax payers are under any obligation to streamline that for people. The net effect will be to buy from US suppliers/importers, not directly from overseas.
The environment cost is higher with the middleman "small business" because they need their own logistics (likely Amazon). So instead of a carrier driving from the boat to USPS/OnTrac, it goes into the warehouses at Amazon. Wow! Thanks! World saved! In the eloquent words of our dear leader: SAD!
In any event, volumewise I presume Ali does more environmental damage than hobby electronics being shipped through Amazon.
It's easy to be snobbish about "low quality crap" from Shein etc if you have the money and preference to buy better, but for many people cheap stuff from China, whether bought in Walmart or online, is a godsend.
In terms of jobs and American manufacturers, there is zero demand for clothing sweatshop jobs in America, just as you don't see Americans lining up to replace illegals for low wage crop picking jobs.
All this is doing is making things more expensive for consumers. It's a consumer tax paid for by those who can least afford it.
[1] https://copenhageneconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/S...
[2] https://www.postnord.dk/siteassets/pdf/forretningsbetingelse...
If you import goods into this country at below the threshold, you are very likely to pay more than the original price of the good itself. That's the truth. There is de minimis in name only.
There is a reason shipping stopped.
Let me introduce you to VAT.
US consumers have long enjoyed the privilege of actual de minimis, that is straight to their door, no fuss, no additional fees goods below the threshold.
I don't think this will give big advantage to US shops, it will mostly be extra expenses for consumers.
Surely you must realize that's a very atypical use case and is dwarfed by people buying cheap clothes and trinkets? Just go to aliexpress or temu right now and see what the items on the front page are. It's not niche components that you can only order from china, it's the same cheap shit you can order off amazon or buy at a local discount retailer.
Americans are rich and will buy wastefully made expensive item if cheaper alternative is not available.
People think that this just means that their nieces will stop buying junky fast fashion or whatever but that their own clean aescetic lifestyle will be unimpacted. But, no, that avocado toast is bankrolled by your employer and IRA and investment accounts or whatever, none of which are prepared for a 10% GDP contraction (or whatever) because the rubes can't buy their skorts anymore.
Economies are boats. We all sink or swim together.
That comment was not an attempt to evaluate the policy, bit an attempt to make it sound better due to made up environmental concern.
We are overall already treating too many clearly bad faith arguments as if we all were naive polaynnas. There is no reason to insist on that as mandatory strategy.
The US Deminimis seemed quite generous. No wonder it is removed.
Why not just end De Minimis to China and leave it for the rest of the world that doesn't take advantage of it and reciprocates with their own De Minimis for US Imports?
It’s not China but businesses. Mostly Chinese businesses but it’s still a lot of individual companies that utilize it.
There is the law of unintended consequences. Other countries will now make American small business products much more expensive to export. Why would they give a De Minimis to these small businesses when the USA doesn't reciprocate?
You're only thinking about China and not the rest of the World. US small businesses buy things (under $800) from countries like Canada and the EU, and were able to do so because of De Minimus. Canadians could buy things from US small businesses without worrying about duties as long as it was under $500.
Now even the smallest item, even a gift from abroad worth $20, will incur a duty of $50-$250 plus administrative fees from the carrier.
I understand your point that removing it for all is a blunt instrument and causes different problems and harms. Hopefully some policy adjustments are made with some trade offs.
> Other countries will now make American small business products much more expensive to export.
They already are/were. From EU it never made sense to buy anything from small US business - with the absurd shipping costs and VAT.
If the sending country doesn't collect customs duties for the US, then the US will place a flat fee of $250 on the item regardless of its value.
>From EU it never made sense to buy anything from small US business, with the absurd shipping costs and VAT.
Perhaps in your case, but some products are specialized or of much higher quality than can be found in the USA.