I just hope they don't try to pin this on the controller who was on duty and move on without putting plans in place for some sort of structural change. Controllers are forced to work 60+ hour weeks and overnight shifts, and the controller in question was working both ground and air control simultaneously due to staffing shortages. If you listen to the ATC audio, he was handling finding a spot for a plane that aborted takeoff and declared an emergency, while calling emergency services for that plane, while coordinating multiple planes coming in to land, while also coordinating multiple planes trying to take off. With that kind of workload, an accident like this is an eventuality. Even after the fatal accident happened, he had to work for at least another hour before he could get relieved of his duty. Hopefully something will happen to fix this at some point rather than us collectively deciding that an accident or two per year is worth the cost savings of not keeping ATC properly staffed.
metalliqaz 29 minutes ago [-]
How do you know it was due to staffing shortages? It is common at LGA for one controller to be handling Tower and Ground late at night.
FL410 24 minutes ago [-]
And therein lies the problem. Clearly, having one overworked controller running a combined tower is not safe nor sustainable.
jakelazaroff 14 minutes ago [-]
You are describing a staffing shortage.
cjrp 15 minutes ago [-]
That seems mad, given the volume of traffic they're working - even without emergencies. My local GA field is single controller, and that's VFR, grass runways, averages 40-50 movements/day.
ryanmcbride 21 minutes ago [-]
Maybe there should be more than one
metalliqaz 16 minutes ago [-]
Maybe. Lets see what the NTSB recommendations say.
However despite the downvotes I still haven't seen evidence that they were running understaffed at that moment.
What I do know is that the developing emergency on the tarmac due to an apparently hazardous smell in another plane is likely the cause of the confusion that led to this incident. That's a trigger that could have been exacerbated by fatigue but we don't have any evidence of that yet.
jen20 19 minutes ago [-]
> It is common at LGA for one controller to be handling Tower and Ground late at night.
What happens when they need the bathroom, or have some kind of medical problem? If it's really a common case for one controller to handle things, the system itself needs to be fundamentally rethought.
1 minutes ago [-]
metalliqaz 15 minutes ago [-]
There are other people there, but the person on the radio is doing both.
pklausler 15 minutes ago [-]
"The system worked yesterday, so it should have worked forever."
0xy 16 minutes ago [-]
LaGuardia did have a fully staffed ATC, and there's zero evidence this controller was overworked. You seem to be prematurely ascribing cause when nothing has been investigated yet.
banannaise 12 minutes ago [-]
The evidence that this controller was overworked is that practically all controllers in the US at present are overworked. As such, that should be treated as the null hypothesis, and it would require substantial evidence to show that he isn't overworked.
Esophagus4 2 minutes ago [-]
Couldn’t we just… wait to see what FAA says before coming up with our own (entirely speculative) theories?
PUSH_AX 4 minutes ago [-]
I'd pay to watch someone say this in a court of law...
Y'all can maybe think about who you are voting for in the next election -- that is if you are still able to vote.
nathanaldensr 11 minutes ago [-]
The FAA's problems are systemic and structural. They've existed long, long before the 2024 election.
Tyrubias 7 minutes ago [-]
Yes, but the problems have been driven by the relentless deregulation of critical industries and infrastructure primarily driven by a specific political bloc. In the next US election, we should vote for candidates that promise systemic change and government overhaul, not further deregulation and handouts to corporations.
Can you elaborate on what change you would like to occur?
I have voted based on getting particular people nominated within a federal agency, requires the President to pick someone who will 100% be from their party, and a Senate committee that will confirm them
people tend to think "I'm voting against my best interests" without knowing that the agency control was my best interest as it will most likely continue shaping an industry far beyond any particular administration
I could see that happening again with your abstract, vague, and ambiguous idea. Just say what you mean specifically, use your words, so I know if it's something that could steer my vote or not
notRobot 45 minutes ago [-]
There was a single traffic controller handling the entire airport. This was bound to happen and will keep happening unless things change. It's absurd that the US hasn't been able to fix its ATC shortage in like decades.
Currently over 41% of facilities are reliant on mandatory overtime, with controllers frequently working 60-hour weeks with only four days off per month.
FL410 43 minutes ago [-]
This. Go look at the atc subreddit, controllers have been begging for help for ages. This isn't one guy's fault.
adgjlsfhk1 29 minutes ago [-]
>This isn't one guy's fault.
Counterpoint. It's Regen's fault. He's the guy who decided that a high priority of the government was making sure air traffic controllers had no power to fight back against being horrifically overworked (because unions are evil you see)
jordanb 1 minutes ago [-]
One thing people forget is that the key complaints PATCO's members had were:
1. outdated equipment
2. staffing levels
3. workload and fatigue
Reagan went to war with the union instead of addressing these things.
Wasn't it Congress who passed 5 U.S.C. § 7311. which says a person may not “accept or hold” a federal job if they “participate in a strike” against the U.S. government.
So arguably if Reagan had not fired them he would be failing to uphold the laws of the United States.
jen20 18 minutes ago [-]
There have been six presidents who could have addressed this since Reagan. Every one of them shoulders some of the responsibility.
_ph_ 12 minutes ago [-]
Yes, they should all have taken actions. But also, it is much more difficult to fix something broken once the damage has settled in. I guess none of them was willing to risk the disruption a fix would have caused. And the system seemed to have held up for quite a while. Weren't there some mass firings of ATC personal at the beginning of the Trump presidency?
The bottom line is: don't break things that are difficult or impossible to fix.
busterarm 18 minutes ago [-]
The issue is the shortage, which that doesn't address. Quite the opposite, in fact.
MisterTea 26 minutes ago [-]
When I heard about the crash I immediately recalled the recent articles about ATC shortages and overworked ATC's. And here we are. ONE dude running ATC for LaGuardia. Mind boggling.
I place no blame on the ATC as they were doing everything they could given the shit sandwich they were handed. I see this happening all over with staffs getting pared down to minimums, more (sometimes unpaid) over time, prices going up, and no raises.
m_fayer 18 minutes ago [-]
I’m not trying to minimize a tragedy, but maybe this is almost the perfect wake up call?
Not many fatalities but nevertheless a spectacular collision. At a major hub airport in a major city. It’s hard to look away from, the cause is obvious, and all that without hundreds of deaths.
2c0m 27 minutes ago [-]
I actually looked into becoming an ATC controller a year or two ago (I love aviation) and they had an age cap of ~30 to start training. I'm 32, so ruled out.
irishcoffee 4 minutes ago [-]
31. If you had started 2 years ago you should have been fine.
mikpanko 29 minutes ago [-]
According to NYT it seems like there were 2 controllers and “2 more in the building”. They also wrote that 2 seems normal for the late slower time of the night.
Not saying this is the right number of controllers to have, just sharing what I read in NYT.
itopaloglu83 34 minutes ago [-]
Setting people up for failure and then using them as scapegoats, this simply infuriates me.
Expecting a single person to consistently keep their mental picture clear and perfect for their entire career is asinine and irresponsible.
We need systems and tools to eliminate such errors and support people, not use them as a person to blame when things inevitably go wrong.
amelius 27 minutes ago [-]
I'm going to make myself unpopular and ask if an AI could have prevented this accident.
dehrmann 21 minutes ago [-]
You don't need modern AI; you can build a system that does voice recognition, models the airport and airspace, and applies looks for violations.
Actually, you might be able to try this. Live ATC and radar is available.
blitzar 26 minutes ago [-]
You are absolulety right, the blockchain could have prevented this accident
mrbukkake 19 minutes ago [-]
Maybe they could try using ICE agents as air traffic controllers too
arjie 36 minutes ago [-]
> According to the aviation safety reporting system administered by the US space agency Nasa...
> The FAA determined that ASRP effectiveness would be greatly enhanced if NASA, rather than the FAA, accomplished the receipt, processing, and analysis of raw data. This would ensure the anonymity of the reporter and of all parties involved in a reported occurrence or incident and, consequently, increase the flow of information necessary for the effective evaluation of the safety and efficiency of the NAS.
Very neat. It's by design. Well done.
Rendered at 16:18:05 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
However despite the downvotes I still haven't seen evidence that they were running understaffed at that moment.
What I do know is that the developing emergency on the tarmac due to an apparently hazardous smell in another plane is likely the cause of the confusion that led to this incident. That's a trigger that could have been exacerbated by fatigue but we don't have any evidence of that yet.
What happens when they need the bathroom, or have some kind of medical problem? If it's really a common case for one controller to handle things, the system itself needs to be fundamentally rethought.
The concept most certainly exists.
According to whom? Management, or controllers?
Certainly does not seem like controllers agree:
https://old.reddit.com/r/ATC/
[1] https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-doges-cutbacks-at-the-...
I have voted based on getting particular people nominated within a federal agency, requires the President to pick someone who will 100% be from their party, and a Senate committee that will confirm them
people tend to think "I'm voting against my best interests" without knowing that the agency control was my best interest as it will most likely continue shaping an industry far beyond any particular administration
I could see that happening again with your abstract, vague, and ambiguous idea. Just say what you mean specifically, use your words, so I know if it's something that could steer my vote or not
Currently over 41% of facilities are reliant on mandatory overtime, with controllers frequently working 60-hour weeks with only four days off per month.
Counterpoint. It's Regen's fault. He's the guy who decided that a high priority of the government was making sure air traffic controllers had no power to fight back against being horrifically overworked (because unions are evil you see)
1. outdated equipment 2. staffing levels 3. workload and fatigue
Reagan went to war with the union instead of addressing these things.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_Professional_Air_Traffic_...
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/5/7311
originally passed as
https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?edition=2023&num=0&req=g...
So arguably if Reagan had not fired them he would be failing to uphold the laws of the United States.
The bottom line is: don't break things that are difficult or impossible to fix.
I place no blame on the ATC as they were doing everything they could given the shit sandwich they were handed. I see this happening all over with staffs getting pared down to minimums, more (sometimes unpaid) over time, prices going up, and no raises.
Not many fatalities but nevertheless a spectacular collision. At a major hub airport in a major city. It’s hard to look away from, the cause is obvious, and all that without hundreds of deaths.
Not saying this is the right number of controllers to have, just sharing what I read in NYT.
Expecting a single person to consistently keep their mental picture clear and perfect for their entire career is asinine and irresponsible.
We need systems and tools to eliminate such errors and support people, not use them as a person to blame when things inevitably go wrong.
Actually, you might be able to try this. Live ATC and radar is available.
Aeronautics, yes, but I was still surprised to see NASA and not the FAA here. But folllowing up here https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/immunity.html
> The FAA determined that ASRP effectiveness would be greatly enhanced if NASA, rather than the FAA, accomplished the receipt, processing, and analysis of raw data. This would ensure the anonymity of the reporter and of all parties involved in a reported occurrence or incident and, consequently, increase the flow of information necessary for the effective evaluation of the safety and efficiency of the NAS.
Very neat. It's by design. Well done.