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California ghost-gun bill wants 3D printers to play cop, EFF says (theregister.com)
horsawlarway 20 minutes ago [-]
Personally, I see this as an assault on 3d printing more than any real attempt to regulate guns.

I own several 3d printers. If I wanted to make something resembling a firearm I'd go to home depot WAY before I bothered 3d printing parts. You basically just need a metal tube, and well... a pipe from home depot does that much better than trying to 3d print something much less reliable.

So given we don't do this regulation for any of the much more reliable ways to create unregistered firearms... what's special about 3d printers?

So my assumption is immediately that some relatively large lobbying group feels threatened by 3d printing, and is using this as a driver to try to control access and limit business impact.

Either way, this is bad legislation.

rolph 9 minutes ago [-]
[delayed]
hypeatei 7 minutes ago [-]
> any real attempt to regulate guns

Any real attempt would need to be at the national level, not that I would advocate for it, but it's simply a pipe dream to create a "gun free zone" in a country with 100s of millions of firearms. There are plenty of gun enthusiasts in California, they just don't flaunt it or talk about it.

tempaccount5050 11 minutes ago [-]
Not that I support any of these obviously stupid bills but:

> what's special about 3d printers?

They can make guns made out of plastic and metal detectors are kind of the primary way we try to find guns on people.

You are probably right about the lobbying group, I agree.

15155 11 minutes ago [-]
> metal detectors are kind of the primary way we try to find guns on people

What are bullets and shell casings made out of again?

Kirby64 4 minutes ago [-]
More importantly, what is the barrel made out of? Yes, I know there’s some fully printed guns… but my understanding is that those are basically 1-time use and even then it’s questionable how reliable that single use actually is…

If you want something resembling an actual gun (more than one shot, won’t blow up in your hand, some reasonable chance of accuracy, etc), then you’re going to be using multiple metal components (including the bullets of course) all of which would show up on a metal detector.

captaincrisp 3 minutes ago [-]
And importantly the barrel. Plastic cannot contain the pressure required to fire a bullet.
simplyluke 28 minutes ago [-]
The 3d printer gun legislation has been rearing its head in a bunch of states this year, and generally with very similar patterns. I suspect some of the pro-gun-control groups have been pushing it to lawmakers given most legislation is basically copy-pastes from lobbying groups at both the state and federal level. Colorado, Washington, New York, and now California have all floated legislation attempting to make device-level restrictions around the issue. I only followed Washington's in depth, and they ended up removing all the requirements on manufactures, but did criminalize possession of files which I suspect won't hold up to a first amendment challenge.
MisterTea 5 minutes ago [-]
I really think all of this is the result of Mangione. Regulating 3D printers has been talked about for years with no action. Then a year after the CEO of a large well known company is killed with a 3D printed gun the states are suddenly pushing highly invasive 3D printing laws. It's no coincidence NY was the first to push for such a law, the state where said CEO was killed.
bmurphy1976 48 seconds ago [-]
LM has a whole series of videos that touches on this (as well as some related topics): https://www.youtube.com/@LoyalMoses/videos

I've seen more by others but can't recall them all. Without going too far down a conspiracy theory rabbit hole, the momentum for this seems to be coming from a variety of sources:

    * New York being New York and trying to make thinking about guns a thought crime
    * There's European company (forget the name) that makes specialized software that can do this.  They're lobbying so they can inject themselves for some tasty rent seeking.
    * A variety of companies that see right-to-repair (and thus home 3D printers, CNC-milling, etc.) a threat to their business.
    * General ignorance by our law makers
MisterTea 46 minutes ago [-]
> The primary goal is clear and simple: to require 3D printer manufacturers to use a state-certified algorithm that checks digital design files for firearm components and blocks print jobs that would produce prohibited parts.

"state-certified algorithm" has a really nice tyrannic ring to it. I am sure once this has passed the rich people can finally sleep at night knowing they are safe from roving gangs of armed Mangiones.

qurren 7 minutes ago [-]
A 3D printer, at least of the Prusa variety, is really just a bunch of stepper motors and a dumb motor driver executing a series of effectively "rotate by X steps" commands, which is what the gcode file is. It doesn't know what it's printing. It doesn't even know that it's a printer.

If they wanted a gate on designs it would have to happen in slicing software, not the actual printer.

tracker1 22 minutes ago [-]
So, I cannot 3d print a squirt gun or a nerf style gun either? This print looks "scary" you cannot print it.
krunck 7 minutes ago [-]
Lets imagine a similar situation but instead of with an additive manufacturing process they try to regulate a subtractive manufacturing process: a traditional CNC machine. There is no way to prevent the CNC system from machining gun parts as along as the machining is done in discrete steps with the same work piece. The software can't know what sitting on the CNC table.

In additive manufacturing it is more difficult but not impossible to print a bunch of pieces that look nothing like a gun part but and in the end be assembled into a gun.

In both the above cases there would need to be sophisticated surveillance software to even come close to detecting "gun-ness."

While I don't have a horse in the gun control race, I do have one in the open-source, running a local OS, running what software I want, and controlling what that software does races.

ed_balls 18 minutes ago [-]
I could ask LLM to find me "legal" parts that are 1:1 with gun parts or even better find metal parts in craftcloud3d.com or sendcutsend.com. With big enough database it could find right items on Amazon. It's impossible to legislate.
maininformer 27 minutes ago [-]
A. What if some part looks like some other non-gun part? B. What if they can further break down the pieces to avoid detection?
rdtsc 38 minutes ago [-]
> California's proposed legislation to put the burden of blocking 3D-printed firearms onto printer manufacturers

I can only assume California has solved all its major problems if policing 3D printers is at the top of the agenda. It's like when someone complains their neighbor can afford two yachts and they can only afford one, you know they are doing pretty well if that's their major concern.

asdff 48 minutes ago [-]
Why don't these bills go after ammo or gunpowder access? Seems as long as you have access to a cylinder, and ammunition, you can make a gun.
ahs1 34 minutes ago [-]
because gun control isn't about guns, it's about control
rolph 31 minutes ago [-]
blackpowder is just barely chemistry, more like engineering.

carbon, sulphur, and potassium nitrate, in a particular ratio.

potassium nitrate is watched, and reported in large quantities, or particular form, but can be manufactured by most people that can follow a recipe.

regulating the propellant cant stop it from being made.

also someone really didnt think it through by regulating "receivers"

they regulated what is most often the easiest part to manufacture. the core parts [barrel, bolt, chamber] are difficult to build, require tech to build from stock, and are sold off the shelf, while receiver needs 4473 as if it was a fully functional firearm, and that is the part that can be built, from a 2x4 or a billet of material, depending how long you want it to last.

mothballed 5 minutes ago [-]
Black powder guns, at least ones of antique design (but modern production), are federally ~unregulated already anyways. A 6 year old in North Dakota could order one mailed right now to his house, no background checks, right off the internet -- legally.

There is also the "felon carry" as its called late 19th century black powder percussion pistols, you can also order off the internet, regardless of criminal history and with no scrutiny of the chain of custody.

convolvatron 46 minutes ago [-]
I don't know the situation with the actual charge, but if you can make a gun, you can certainly make ammunition.
rolph 22 minutes ago [-]
you need tight tolerances for modern ammo, a shotgun, or muzzle loader is more forgiveing. reloading materials are not federally regulated as firearms, you just dont want to have more than 2lbs at a time, or that could bring trouble.

you want to be able to KNOW and SEE the difference between a blackpowder, and a smokeless powder, and what not to put it in.

one thing that would add a lot of friction is if the primers are regulated.

thats the funny thing, felons cant possess firearms or ammo, however you can possess reloading materials, and be fine there until you start actually reloading, then you are in possession of ammo.

asdff 36 minutes ago [-]
I guess you are right, both are pretty easy to make.
subhobroto 24 minutes ago [-]
> if you can make a gun, you can certainly make ammunition

theoretically true but having re-sleeved ammunition, the chances of injury is tremendously different. That said, a lot of people in California are having to resort to re-sleeving ammunition, not out of choice but because for all practical purposes, California has made buying ammunition impossible.

While you can crawl and bite your way through getting a horribly castrated gun in California, the real struggle begins buying affordable ammunition.

For regular people to own a gun that you can actually use in California, (not LEOs or certain other people), you either needed to have inherited them or bought them from the cartels. Otherwise you own something of limited use that insanely expensive to operate.

asdff 15 minutes ago [-]
Can't you make a blunderbuss pretty easily with some rocks and scrap? I wonder how straight shooting a musket you could make? Probably pretty straight if you happened on something manufactured that already happens to fit pretty precise into your cylinder I'm guessing. You could probably get pretty far with airguns too. I mean a pellet gun is already enough to kill a bird or squirrel outright and pretty damn accurate. I probably wouldn't want to take one of those to the neck or soft part of the head.
ahs1 17 minutes ago [-]
> For regular people to own a gun that you can actually use in California, (not LEOs or certain other people), you either needed to have inherited them or bought them from the cartels.

or, you can just break these stupid, unenforceable laws and buy out of state or just "uncastrate" it yourself.

no idea why so many people get their panties in a twist everytime California passes an unenforceable law. they're unenforceable.

redsocksfan45 18 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
dabluecaboose 38 minutes ago [-]
That was tried in Lexington and Concord circa 1775, it didn't end well for the guys trying to seize the powder.

Happy Patriot's Day this weekend (April 19th)!

bdcravens 22 minutes ago [-]
I've always felt that it you want to really impact gun violence, tax the hell out of ammo and gunpowder. Like $20/bullet. For those who believe in self-defense, a handful of bullets is all you need your entire life, and ideally they'll go unused.

Could probably create exceptions for bullets used at the gun range, so you can become proficient and safe.

Tricky part would be hunting, but restricting such a tax to ammo used for handguns is probably an 80% solution.

15155 20 minutes ago [-]
I've always felt if you really want to impact election fraud, tax the hell out of votes. Like $1,000/vote. For those who believe in democracy, a handful of votes over a lifetime is all you need, and ideally the right candidate wins anyway.

Could probably create exceptions for local elections, so you can still participate in your community.

Tricky part would be general elections, but restricting such a tax to federal races is probably an 80% solution.

xienze 15 minutes ago [-]
> I've always felt if you really want to impact election fraud, tax the hell out of votes. Like $1,000/vote.

You don’t even have to go that far. $10 and a trip to the DMV is apparently an insurmountable barrier.

akersten 15 minutes ago [-]
> Could probably create exceptions for bullets used at the gun range, so you can become proficient and safe.

Amusing to imagine the red diesel of sport shooting - better hope the tax authority doesn't find any combustion-proof dye on the self-defense shell casings!

ginkgotree 44 minutes ago [-]
I'm so glad I left California 6 years ago. They are going to regulate and tax their startups and innovators away to other states. This is supremely stupid.
nradov 31 minutes ago [-]
This is the inevitable result of having a single-party government which is no longer accountable to regular citizens.
dlev_pika 30 minutes ago [-]
laughs in Texan and the entirety of the South
jimbob45 18 minutes ago [-]
No it’s not. Xi has power as absolute as Newsom and manages just fine. When your country has large, but solvable problems, absolute power works great for quelling unrest by fixing problems quickly and efficiently. Newsom is just generationally incompetent.
comboy 19 minutes ago [-]
We are sorry, but your print resembles random princess from Disney too much (actually, we won't tell you which). Just following the law you know..
subhobroto 41 minutes ago [-]
I don't understand the problem solving mindset that thinks banning guns would solve the problem of a person intent on causing harm.

In the U.K., where I feel guns are only showpieces (do even cops have them?), stabbing is a known problem.

In India, where ammo is way more expensive than machetes and knives, people are literally murdered with them.

The only argument I can understand, when it comes to banning guns, is that it reduces the blast radius that an evil person can have.

So what's next, lock down the air, radio, roads, internet, water, food supply chains because these are all attack vectors?

If that's the proposal, what's my plan when coyotes and mountain lions attack my child and I on our regular walks on rural property?

cultofmetatron 26 minutes ago [-]
guns democratize mass murder. With a gun, I can kill a bunch of people before police can stop me. A knife? At best I can kill one or two in a public place before people run away and eventually a different group is going to stop me pretty quickly.
subhobroto 21 minutes ago [-]
- can you build bombs to blow up an apartment complex full of 1000s of people?

- can you poison the water supply of an apartment complex full of 1000s of people?

- can you drop a harmful substance using a $50 drone onto an open area where of 1000s of people have congregated?

nemomarx 19 minutes ago [-]
We also restrict the components of those pretty heavily, though. Try buying too much fertilizer without a farm and see who shows up.

This isn't a judgement on your general point, but I think bombs and bioweapons and etc are very bad examples for you here.

alterom 50 minutes ago [-]
It's ridiculous that this is even being discussed. The people proposing the bill must have zero understanding of how a 3D printer works.

It makes as much sense as requiring saw manufacturers to implement protections that restrict what can be cut out with a saw.

Or pen manufacturers being required to enforce copyright.

Any form of this bill will 100% fail to attain its stated objective, while having horrendous not-quite-unintended consequences.

And in the end, what's to stop someone from assembling an unlicensed 3D printer to make unlicensed prints? That's how the industry literally began.

(Not to mention: what do they think would happen to the hundreds of millions of existing "dumb" 3D printers? They won't disappear because there's a law).

Sigh.

dabluecaboose 37 minutes ago [-]
> Any form of this bill will 100% fail to attain its stated objective, while having horrendous not-quite-unintended consequences.

California gun laws in a nutshell.

teaearlgraycold 28 minutes ago [-]
California laws in a nutshell.
annoyingnoob 45 minutes ago [-]
> what do they think would happen to the hundreds of millions of existing "dumb" 3D printers?

Hey, my printer might be going up in value.

jmyeet 30 minutes ago [-]
I'm surprised the EFF didn't address the issue that traditional printer manufacturers already comply with law enforcement, specifically that a fingerprint of yellow tracking dots [1] are printed and printers will often refuse to or fail to copy images of money.

My point is there's already precedent for printers cooperating with authorities so one can see this as simply an extension to 3D printer manufacturers.

I suspect it's a losing battle for the EFF and 3D printer manufacturers to resist some kind of fingerprinting or even the prohibition of things that are guns.

I'm not saying that's right or wrong. That's just what I expect to happen. And if you want to argue against it, you should address the printer tracking dot issue or argue how this is different.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Printer_tracking_dots

Cider9986 25 minutes ago [-]
Open source is core to 3d printing. I have never heard of an open source traditional printer. That is the difference. This is an attempt to lock down open source.
Aspos 26 minutes ago [-]
I believe EFF did address the yellow dots but got nowhere. Yellow dot problem is decades old.
throwatdem12311 34 minutes ago [-]
I just laugh whenever I hear “ghost gun”.

> On January 13, 2014 a certain State Senator (no reason to name names) held a press conference where he held a modern rifle in his hands and stated, “This is a ghost gun. This right here has the ability with a .30-caliber clip to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second. Thirty magazine clip in half a second.”

Anyone that knows even a little bit about guns knows that this is utter nonsense, and it was appropriately memed into oblivion.

Most anti-gun activists and legislators seem to have no more knowledge than this - which is to say, none.

bitwize 9 minutes ago [-]
Hence "assault weapons" which are not a particular type of gun but a list of scary characteristics associated with military weapons—bayonet lugs, folding stocks, and the like—used by legislators to FUD their way into being seen as "doing something" about guns.

In the United States we even have a word for an assault weapon on four legs—pitbulls. Most breed-specific legislation, where it exists, targets pitbulls which are not a single breed nor group of related breeds, but basically any large muscular dog with a short snout and blocky head. The American Pit Bull Terrier is one such breed but far from the only one targeted by BSL.

I think it was Toyotomi Hideyoshi who said something like, the law is not obligated to logic, but it still must be followed.

subhobroto 11 minutes ago [-]
> Anyone that knows even a little bit about guns knows that this is utter nonsense

Most people in California who vote on these matters have not held a BB gun, let alone a semi automatic.

They have 0 idea that you just cannot buy actual guns in California anymore!

They think you can just buy a gun at Walmart like you can buy a can of Coke.

A few years ago a local Walmart was clearing our their air rifle selection. Since ammo have become really expensive, I bought out the whole shelf of air rifles so I could continue to target practise.

People called the cops on me.

The local sherrif's department received nearly a 100 calls that hour when we spoke. When I asked them why they even bothered to turn up because they know no Walmart in a 300 mile radius have ever sold a rifle in the last 20 years as was described to them over the phone, they just shrugged and said "politics".

dlev_pika 28 minutes ago [-]
AFAIK If I try to scan a dollar bill, both the hardware and the software won’t let me be.

How is this different?

Zak 22 minutes ago [-]
Photoshop does that voluntarily; it's not required to by law. GIMP doesn't do it.

This is akin to trying to require all image editors to detect currency and refuse to process images of it. Making open source image processing software would probably have be illegal because end users could trivially modify it to illegally process currency, or having general-purpose computers that can run software the government hasn't approved would need to be banned.

pensatoio 22 minutes ago [-]
A dollar bill is exactly the same (roughly) always. Banning models of gun parts (or anything 3D printed, for that matter) is like trying to ban the patterns of dust in the wind. There are millions of permutations and ways to slice the problem.
EvanAnderson 21 minutes ago [-]
I enjoy your use of the word "slice" there.
EvanAnderson 23 minutes ago [-]
US currency has machine-detectable identifying markings incorporated in the design. "Ghost gun" parts do not.
Retr0id 24 minutes ago [-]
One practical difference is that you can make dollar bill detection relatively robust. Sure, you could cut it into 4 pieces and scan them separately, but you'd still get stuck when it comes time to print them. There are only finitely many dollar bill shapes. But there are infinitely many plausible gun components, and infinitely more ways to divide them into sub-assemblies.
jolmg 15 minutes ago [-]
> but you'd still get stuck when it comes time to print them.

It also seems a lot harder to DIY an inkjet or laser printer. The parts needed to DIY a 3d printer are a lot simpler.

EvanAnderson 22 minutes ago [-]
It would be interesting to test what the minimum detectable piece of US currency is. (I wouldn't want to do it on a network-connected system, though.)
NoMoreNicksLeft 3 minutes ago [-]
There is a pattern of yellow dots on the currency. I do not know at what size they tile across the paper, but the piece of currency would have to be smaller than that, most likely.

Far easier to dump the firmware and NOOP out that algo.

subhobroto 23 minutes ago [-]
You cannot defend yourself from a hungry coyote or surprised mountain lion with a dollar bill but you can certainly protect yourself or your child from one with a gun
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