There is homelessness, and then there is drug and/or alcohol addiction.
> Those who are convicted of sleeping outdoors could be given the option to avoid jail time by instead entering into a mandatory treatment program for at least 12 months.
What happens if someone is homeless and not addicted to drugs or alcohol? Why assume everyone who is homeless is also an addict? It seems entirely reasonable that someone homeless AND addicted to drugs/alcohol should be required to enter into a treatment program.
sapphicsnail 3 hours ago [-]
Because this isn't about helping people. This is about punishing the homeless.
Gabriel54 2 hours ago [-]
Or to be more generous, they are tired of seeing drug addicted people sleeping in the street.
adampunk 2 hours ago [-]
My heart bleeds for the person who sees someone sleeping in the street and assumes the sight of it is the tiresome thing.
Gabriel54 2 hours ago [-]
Your heart doesn't have to bleed for such a person but I think most people would agree it is tiresome to see homeless people in the street. It is also a public health issue. Doing heroin in the middle of the sidewalk and throwing the needle on the ground is obviously extremely un-hygienic and dangerous to everyone.
adampunk 29 minutes ago [-]
You write more but there is still not a hint of sympathy in your words for humans living in the street.
FireBeyond 1 hours ago [-]
Yeah, this is punishing people for being homeless, just like Boise (though their city rules were eventually overturned)...
They had a law that it was illegal to sleep outdoors as long as a designated shelter said they had a bed available. One of the more heavily Christian shelters said their policy was to always say they had a bed available, i.e. turn nobody away.
But to stay at their shelter meant mandatory church attendance, mandatory prayer and other religious observances.
So it became de facto enforced that the homeless could face religious indoctrination or jail as their options. Was eventually turned over by threats of or actual moves to challenge constitutionality.
archagon 4 hours ago [-]
The American mindset: “if they’re homeless, they clearly did something wrong and/or deserve it.”
xrd 4 hours ago [-]
Right, despite the biggest cause of homelessness: medical debt.
nslsm 4 hours ago [-]
Citation needed.
HWR_14 2 hours ago [-]
Medical debt is the biggest cause of bankruptcies. I assume bankruptcy and homelessness are correlated, but I haven't seen stats on homelessness.
Gabriel54 4 hours ago [-]
I certainly do not agree with that. My point is that this article itself conflates homelessness and addiction, which I think is a serious error.
Schiendelman 4 hours ago [-]
What specific information makes you think that?
archagon 4 hours ago [-]
I know. I mean this is the mindset that causes this conflation in the first place.
LewisVerstappen 4 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
sapphicsnail 3 hours ago [-]
You would be too if you got priced out of your apartment and didn't have family to support you. When I was living in Oakland, the vast majority of homeless people I met use to live nearby. Happy people don't get addicted to drugs.
UncleMeat 4 hours ago [-]
And when people do professional research on the topic, they don't find that every homeless person outside is an addict.
burnt-resistor 2 hours ago [-]
I was functionally homeless for 11 years but never used substances and wasn't psychotic.
There was a very large fraction of other homeless people who couldn't hold jobs because they were disabled, elderly, under-skilled, not presentable, or lacked the resources and support to "pick themselves up by their [invisible] bootstraps." Some had personality aggression issues that couldn't hold jobs too that didn't fall under danger to themselves or others and so they weren't necessarily able to access mental healthcare. And also some had debts, credit problems, and criminal records that presented obstacles to employment opportunities.
I knew 2 elderly retired teachers who were homeless because they lacked family and resources but were otherwise "normal", cool, and social-able.
I understand that it's human nature of privileged, inexperienced, ignorant people to scapegoat and dehumanize groups they don't understand.
LewisVerstappen 4 hours ago [-]
homeless != sleeping on the streets.
defrost 2 hours ago [-]
> literally all of them are strugging from some sort of addiction.
This is what you found when you went out and interviewed how many people sleeping on the streets in which cities of which counries?
And _nobody_ working in the social services of any city in any country has ever found anything other to be a factor?
Remarkable.
syoleene 5 hours ago [-]
> Those who are convicted of sleeping outdoors could be given the option to avoid jail time by instead entering into a mandatory treatment program for at least 12 months. The bill authorizes local governments to set up semi-permanent camps in remote areas, where defendants would be required to stay and receive treatment.
So basically state funded mandatory rehab for everyone ?
xrd 4 hours ago [-]
Doesn't the article say they have to pay for it themselves?
silverquiet 4 hours ago [-]
arbeit macht frei
sidewndr46 3 hours ago [-]
While your quote is meant to be snarky, my understanding is that sign isn't at Dachau any longer
FireBeyond 1 hours ago [-]
It seems strange that they removed the sign after the fact. Unless it was to prevent theft.
Copperhead Road in Johnson County TN (that Copperhead Road) is now known as Copperhead Hollow Road for that reason.
7 hours ago [-]
bibimsz 2 hours ago [-]
henceforth know as The Big Difficult
metalman 3 hours ago [-]
many places have resorted to giving homeless people money and or casual labour for there city/town, a very large percentage then unfortunately get stabilised and re oriented into productive roles and are no longer able to be monitised by the legal/beurocratic industrial complex
SilverElfin 6 hours ago [-]
I don’t think this is cruel at all. This is badly needed to fix broken incentives. A lot of the west coast cities (SF, Portland, Seattle, Vancouver) have serious issues with homeless drug addicts taking over public spaces, causing blight, committing property crimes, acting out in public, etc.
All the taxpayer money spent on nonprofits and random government programs have had little impact since far and mostly look like corrupt grift. There need to be new consequences and deterrents.
Ar-Curunir 5 hours ago [-]
How does this actually stop homelessness?
Most homeless people, if you fine them money, won't exactly be able to find housing more easily. Similarly, if you imprison them, they aren't suddenly able to find a job more easily.
Schiendelman 4 hours ago [-]
Most people experiencing homelessness are approached repeatedly by workers hoping to get them into programs that will provide them work, housing, mental healthcare.
There's a lot of complexity, like people who appear homeless but do have a place to sleep, but appear mentally ill.
For the most part, people in these situations are not looking for work or housing.
soraminazuki 3 hours ago [-]
So what, if you lose your job, you can just sleep on the street and employers will line up to hire you? That sounds ridiculous.
adampunk 2 hours ago [-]
People tell themselves crazy lies because the truth--that they're just a few coin flips from the same fate--is scary.
FireBeyond 57 minutes ago [-]
I am an EMS instructor, and ex-paramedic. I remember a quote from my instructor, once upon a time, about judgment of the homeless, particularly the drug-addicted.
"You can question the choices that led them there, but that ship has sailed. The truth of it is if your life consisted of things like looking for food in public garbage cans amongst cigarette butts, bird shit, that had been rained on, that you were reduced to using alleyways to go to the bathroom, newspaper (if you can even find that) to wipe, then it's quite likely that you too would "choose" to retreat to a gorked out haze to escape the emotional pain of that existence. I know I certainly would."
bombcar 4 hours ago [-]
At least if they’re imprisoned they’re no longer homeless
2OEH8eoCRo0 5 hours ago [-]
Agreed. My town has a homeless problem. They say they need beds so the town adds beds and now we get homeless from all the other towns coming in.
Comparatively few of our homeless are from here.
Schiendelman 4 hours ago [-]
Do be careful. Everyone claims that, but it's almost always something like 80% local in every place that measures.
SilverElfin 1 hours ago [-]
The measurements are always wrong. Volunteers tell people to lie on the point in time surveys so programs supporting them (or claiming to support them) keep getting funding. In the west coast cities the majority are from elsewhere and it’s easy to confirm if you actually talk to some of them and learn more about the backgrounds of people at the camp. They are there because not only are they tolerated and can break the law without consequences, but they also get free needles to help their habit.
FireBeyond 53 minutes ago [-]
> but they also get free needles to help their habit
They're not getting free needles to "help their habit", they're getting them so they don't re-use or share. Because what's more difficult to help than an addict? An addict with a communicable, potentially fatal, illness.
I am an ex-paramedic. I've lost track of the number of times I've administered narcan, gone to ODs, seen the sheer disaster of cotton fever (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23528959/). Free needles isn't encouraging people to keep their habit going, it's a means of not adding one more route to death's door.
archagon 5 hours ago [-]
So an unhoused person has to either go to prison (accomplishing what?) or go to some “treatment” camp in the woods and pay for it (using what money?!) Excuse me, but what the fuck? Which part of this helps them get out of their shitty situation instead of basically sticking them in a concentration camp indefinitely? And what if they don’t have a drug problem? What will they be “treated” for at this remote location?
I think the only thing that can be earnestly said to this is “fuck this inhuman shit.” Anyone who supports this program has willingly torn chunks from their soul and thrown them in the gutter.
FireBeyond 49 minutes ago [-]
> and pay for it (using what money?!)
Just like Florida. Get arrested and spend any time in jail, and the state will start charging you $85/day. Oh, released without charge? Charges dropped or case dismissed? Found not guilty? Florida doesn't care, they're sending you a bill anyway. And if you don't pay it?
Class B Felony, my friend. Warrants issued. And so it goes.
4 hours ago [-]
bdangubic 3 hours ago [-]
all of the money we spend of department of “defense” and we get a President begging at 2:00am on social media for some canal to be opened, maybe we start there are reduce that budget by like 95% first
xrd 4 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
dnemmers 3 hours ago [-]
If you’re wondering why you’re getting downvoted, we’d like to hear from you, not Gemini.
Rendered at 03:47:47 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
> Those who are convicted of sleeping outdoors could be given the option to avoid jail time by instead entering into a mandatory treatment program for at least 12 months.
What happens if someone is homeless and not addicted to drugs or alcohol? Why assume everyone who is homeless is also an addict? It seems entirely reasonable that someone homeless AND addicted to drugs/alcohol should be required to enter into a treatment program.
They had a law that it was illegal to sleep outdoors as long as a designated shelter said they had a bed available. One of the more heavily Christian shelters said their policy was to always say they had a bed available, i.e. turn nobody away.
But to stay at their shelter meant mandatory church attendance, mandatory prayer and other religious observances.
So it became de facto enforced that the homeless could face religious indoctrination or jail as their options. Was eventually turned over by threats of or actual moves to challenge constitutionality.
There was a very large fraction of other homeless people who couldn't hold jobs because they were disabled, elderly, under-skilled, not presentable, or lacked the resources and support to "pick themselves up by their [invisible] bootstraps." Some had personality aggression issues that couldn't hold jobs too that didn't fall under danger to themselves or others and so they weren't necessarily able to access mental healthcare. And also some had debts, credit problems, and criminal records that presented obstacles to employment opportunities.
I knew 2 elderly retired teachers who were homeless because they lacked family and resources but were otherwise "normal", cool, and social-able.
I understand that it's human nature of privileged, inexperienced, ignorant people to scapegoat and dehumanize groups they don't understand.
This is what you found when you went out and interviewed how many people sleeping on the streets in which cities of which counries?
And _nobody_ working in the social services of any city in any country has ever found anything other to be a factor?
Remarkable.
So basically state funded mandatory rehab for everyone ?
Copperhead Road in Johnson County TN (that Copperhead Road) is now known as Copperhead Hollow Road for that reason.
All the taxpayer money spent on nonprofits and random government programs have had little impact since far and mostly look like corrupt grift. There need to be new consequences and deterrents.
Most homeless people, if you fine them money, won't exactly be able to find housing more easily. Similarly, if you imprison them, they aren't suddenly able to find a job more easily.
There's a lot of complexity, like people who appear homeless but do have a place to sleep, but appear mentally ill.
For the most part, people in these situations are not looking for work or housing.
"You can question the choices that led them there, but that ship has sailed. The truth of it is if your life consisted of things like looking for food in public garbage cans amongst cigarette butts, bird shit, that had been rained on, that you were reduced to using alleyways to go to the bathroom, newspaper (if you can even find that) to wipe, then it's quite likely that you too would "choose" to retreat to a gorked out haze to escape the emotional pain of that existence. I know I certainly would."
Comparatively few of our homeless are from here.
They're not getting free needles to "help their habit", they're getting them so they don't re-use or share. Because what's more difficult to help than an addict? An addict with a communicable, potentially fatal, illness.
I am an ex-paramedic. I've lost track of the number of times I've administered narcan, gone to ODs, seen the sheer disaster of cotton fever (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23528959/). Free needles isn't encouraging people to keep their habit going, it's a means of not adding one more route to death's door.
I think the only thing that can be earnestly said to this is “fuck this inhuman shit.” Anyone who supports this program has willingly torn chunks from their soul and thrown them in the gutter.
Just like Florida. Get arrested and spend any time in jail, and the state will start charging you $85/day. Oh, released without charge? Charges dropped or case dismissed? Found not guilty? Florida doesn't care, they're sending you a bill anyway. And if you don't pay it?
Class B Felony, my friend. Warrants issued. And so it goes.