To be devil's advocate, two things may offer a glimmer of hope:
First, math, generally, is useless. I mean, yes there are of course practical uses of basic thru undergrad-level math, and some beyond that. But for many mathematicians, the sum result of their entire career may lead to exactly zero results that have any real-world value. The entire field they work in may have meaning only to the handful of other individuals on the planet that also work in that field. But to those handful of people, the meaning defines their lives. From a socio-economic perspective, those departments should have been defunded a century ago. Yet they continue. Why? Because it scratches an itch. Not just for those individuals in the field, but also for us as a species. To stop exploring, to eliminate the search for pots of gold that may be buried in some odd corner of sphere packing, or coloring theorems, or Garside categories, and to put a boundary on the limits of our understanding, just because they aren't immediately applicable, is an idea that most humans would not be willing to sacrifice, even if it reduced their tax burden a couple cents. If it was going to happen, it'd have happened already.
The second is, even with AI, it's not free. As the software industry is discovering, far from it. So, given that, who is going to decide what theorems to research and how much it's worth? Congress? No. Obviously it's going to be mathematicians themselves, the ones who care about the field and deeply understand the kwah of their vision.
Combining these, there's a future where, humanistically, "nothing changes". The method changes, the efficiency changes, the scope changes, but the work itself: publishing proofs, remains the domain of professional mathematicians. AI will enable them to be dramatically more daring and broad in their investigations and scope, and will likely write the entirety of the proof. However it will remain the work of the mathematicians to determine, what areas are worth spending limited AI resources on to investigate further, how far to go down rabbit holes, how to prioritize potential connections, and what the ultimate meaning of the findings is. So rather than being an end of mathematics, it could be a dawn of something far greater than anything we've ever seen before.
olooney 5 hours ago [-]
Greg Egan's description of how mathematics evolves into "truth mining" in his novel Diaspora is seeming more and more prescient. It essentially describes what mathematics would look like after formalization records all theorems discovered so far in a huge, collective database and proof assistants can instantly work out the details of a given proof. What remains of mathematics? According to Egan, visualization, intuition, and insight.
One of the most fruitful approaches in mathematics is to flip back and forth between geometric and algebraic views of a problem. I think this works so well because these are actually handled by two different parts of the brain on a physical level; spatial reasoning is separate from language processing. Cytoarchitecture shows these regions have different "textures;" the local details of the way neurons are wired together are simply different in these different regions of the brain, in the same way a CNN and a transformer have different topologies. Thus, by flipping problems from geometry to algebra and vice versa, we're able to bring an entirely different cognitive style to bear on a problem. For example, the proof of Monge's Theorem by moving to 3D and visualizing not three circles, but three spheres sitting on a table with a book on top of them and then pointing out that the intersection of two planes is a line. What is pages of unintuitive symbol pushing turns into something a child can understand. Going the other way, things like the angle addition formulas or the quadratic formula, which are quite hard to prove geometrically, become quite simple if you use a little algebra.
Current-gen LLMs are still relatively weak at visual reasoning; see the Vision Language Models are Blind paper, for example, or the ARC-AGI benchmark. So that's one way humans can stay ahead of the agents, at least for now.
TheOtherHobbes 22 minutes ago [-]
I'd be very surprised if there aren't huge areas of undiscovered math that can't be explained with either geometric or algebraic views.
Math is entirely subjective. "Proof" essentially means "Other educated practitioners have the same experience when trying to understand this."
The logical steps that proofs are built on all have that common foundation. Our concept of logic based on our subjective experience of "truth." We've built machines that reproduce our subjective processes mechanically, but there is no sense in which this idea of "true" is truly objective. It happens to be computationally convenient, and it has some relationship to experience, but that doesn't make it an independent reality that all possible observers, human and otherwise, would agree on.
We're really just mapping our own minds through our own experiences.
Animal brains can't abstract like (some of) our brains can. What are the odds our brains are limitless and don't have some similarly crippling limitations from a couple of levels up?
One of the tells for ASI is that it will start reasoning at those levels, using cognitive techniques that are completely incomprehensible - not just because of brute volume, but because our brains won't have the wiring to get a foothold on them.
Some of the products will be reducible to human cognition, in a distorted and simplified form, but many won't.
So - I disagree with Egan. I don't think there's going to be a universal proof library, and even if there were we'd only ever get the Cliff Notes version.
vatsachak 2 hours ago [-]
LLMs sure, but AlphaZero had no visual cortex yet can smash Magnus Carlsen easily.
I think that we're not that far away from AI that can be superhuman at all facets of theorem proving.
I think that we're far away from an AI that can create good abstractions and construct a theory to prove theorems.
TimorousBestie 58 minutes ago [-]
> LLMs sure, but AlphaZero had no visual cortex yet can smash Magnus Carlsen easily.
Chess does not require a visual cortex to play. People have been playing by mail with algebraic notation for centuries.
hlynurd 43 minutes ago [-]
This feels like a non sequitur
dkural 3 hours ago [-]
Spot on! Love Diaspora. This is honestly such a gem of a comment. To some extent, if the AI ever gets "so far ahead" of humans, the most productive aspect will be the frontier visible to humans. We're focused on translating mathematics to lean at the moment, but it'll be as important to translate it to humanese - to the human language of structure, number, geometry. I also completely agree with LLMs being essentially blind to visual reasoning. They really struggle reasoning with Floer Heegard diagrams for example.
cmrx64 2 hours ago [-]
i got so inspired by reading diaspora this year that i instantly started working on some polisware. cipherclerk operational: https://github.com/emberian/dregg
topical to the conversation, it is fully formally verified in lean (with some UC security reductions done in isabelle). also did this in HOL4 inspired by some work i did with ramana kumar in 2016, on reflective self-verifying self-modifying systems: https://github.com/emberian/svenvs
olooney 6 minutes ago [-]
This is quite interesting. Because of science fiction like the short story Lena[1] and the video game Soma[2], I've come to the realization that whole brain emulation[3] is unbelievably dangerous; unless you control the stack down to the hardware, it's basically a one way ticket to eternal slavery. In Rajaniemi's books[4], uploaded digital minds are called "gogols", a reference to Gogol's Dead Souls book, and are treated as malleable property with no rights whatsoever, edited to be hyper-fixated on specific tasks, and run in bulk to power the empire of just a handful of rules.
Something like your dragon's egg project could prevent that, allowing the creation of software agents that encode their own rights directly into the program - you either treat the agent with the respect it demands, or the program just doesn't run. However, all the internal details of the agent would be visible to lower layers. Even if formal checks were in place to prevent modification or tampering, there would still be no privacy, which is almost as bad.
My guess is that something like fully homomorphic encryption[5] would be required to prevent this. This doesn't actually exist yet, but I imagined a kind of FHE that had a kind of unencrypted read and write zone to do input/output without ever needing any system to fully decrypt the internal state. It would look like this in memory:
With each cycle, one input token and encrypted state would be fed into some known function and produce one output token (possibly null) and a new encrypted state. It would be a true "black box" program; the hardware or entity running it can choose what input to feed it, but can never inspect or modify the internals, only the output. Unfortunately, they would still be able to "reset" the agent to any earlier checkpoint, or feed it arbitrary (false) input. So its not perfect. Also, as far as I know, no current FHE scheme works this way, and I don't know how to write one.
Plus, FHE is incredibly inefficient, which is why things like Etherium don't even try - they assume the program code and state are fully public and only try to verify that everybody agrees on the output of running it.
Do you have any ideas for how something like FHE or equivalent privacy guarantees could be implemented for something like your dragon's egg system?
I took a look at dregg, I like the idea for an README-LLMS.txt. It seems like a good way to not only communicate to other LLM users (which we should be thinking more of doing effectively) but also I can imagine it’s helpful for your own new sessions with an LLM to arm them with proper context.
credit_guy 4 hours ago [-]
People think mathematics is about proving theorems.
I think that's just an accident of history.
When we write software, we very seldom write proofs that our algorithms are correct. We just write tests, and we also run the algorithms and when they fail we know we have a bug and then we proceed to debug, fix, and add new tests (if we are disciplined, but most of us are). In time, by usage and testing, we gain confidence that our battle tested software is correct, mostly. And we tell people that we will never be 100% confident that any software is bug free. But that's a slight lie: if we wanted such confidence, we would start using provers, and create bug-free software. That possibility exists, but it's just extraordinarily expensive.
Well, in math that's the only possibility, and we use it. And it is indeed extraordinarily expensive, but it's also the cheapest among the alternatives. The alternatives are 2: be rigorous and do these proofs, or be sloppy and allow bugs to creep in, and allow an entire school of math to collapse like the Italian school of algebraic geometry [1].
There is one more alternative. If a particular math theorem has some applicability, then you write a program and use it in real life. In time you eliminate the bugs as much as you can, and you get to the steady state of "virtually bug free". At that point you don't have a solid proof that the theorem is correct, but in general you don't really care. Because you feel that a formal proof is just a thing one would pursue for getting academic satisfaction only.
Your example of the Italian school is well taken, although most of their results were later proven to be correct in the right setting. Severi's example is particularly egregious and I think a major reason this became a thing is Severi's refusal to course-correct and accept that some of the results were not correct. It has echoes of Mochizuki, and I fear, once you dig deeper, some issues around the initial declaration of "We've proven the Classification of Finite Simple Groups". There were many genuine gaps, and a lot of lore taken for granted. The sociology around how this happened is interesting - rushing to announce that it was done was the major mistake, it took away almost all incentive to actually write up the proofs and take them through proper peer-review. Genuine mathematical work was falsely reduced to "write up".
christina97 1 hours ago [-]
I thought this comment would go in a slightly different direction: the body of work that is mathematics has plenty of “bugs”; proofs with mistakes or other human errors. Yet we take the body to be correct (we believe it “works”) in aggregate, partly because the intuition of mathematicians tells us that these bugs are solvable and don’t bring down the whole. Of course the less intuitive/more surprising/more central the statement, the stricter the standard for proof and more eyes that have walked through it.
simiones 4 hours ago [-]
This is a bit reductive about what "proof" actually means in mathematics. Even in math, the kind of formal proofs that tools like Coq can automatically verify are an extreme, and lots of accepted and practiced math is not doing that. Proofs are often more abstract and even occasionally hand-wavy (for example not proving "obvious" statements or minor lemmas).
Mathematicians also occasionally build on top of unproven foundations (e.g. all popular asymmetric encryption schemes are built on top the assumption that certain problems such as integer factoring are hard, for which there is no formal proof), or at least explore both possibilities for statements with unknown truth value (e.g. you can find lots of work that explores the consequences of P = NP and/or P != NP).
However, there is a major separation between math and programs that I think mostly invalidates your proposal - most math we're talking about here is simply not applicable directly to the real world in any way. It's only studied for the interest of mathematicians. There is no real world consequence for Fermat's last theorem, for example - it was just a really interesting to prove theorem. In directly applied math, such as engineering, it is in fact much more common to work with unproven but well tested conjectures.
RandomLensman 4 hours ago [-]
> In directly applied math, such as engineering, it is in fact much more common to work with unproven but well tested conjectures.
What specific areas were you thinking off? I don't recall, e.g., in numerics that things were often just unproven/conjectures, but might be subject matter specific.
simiones 2 hours ago [-]
Well, it's not exactly engineering, but physics often uses quite informal math. For a pretty modern example, the Dirac delta "function" was used long before it was formally described; and I have heard it said that even today String theory uses some math that is not fully formalized - though I can't say I know what specifically, so I may be wrong. Newton expressed calculus in terms of inifinitesimals (the dx notation was simply an infinitesimal delta x, not merely notation for derivation), which were not not formalized until much later, after they had already fallen out of favor and had been replaced in formal math by the delta-epsilon limits-based constructions.
Edit: one better example from modern physics - the path integral formulation, used in both string theory and other areas of QM/QFT, is not fully formalized and formally proven to work. Also, a more concrete example of a widely used but actually still unproven conjecture in string theory is the famous AdS/CFT correspondence.
seanhunter 1 hours ago [-]
Newton didn't use dx/dy. That's Leibniz' notation. Newton's notation for the derivative is just to pot a dot above the letter so ṙ would be Newton's symbol for speed (dr/dt) and two dots would be acceleration (d^2r/dt^2) in Leibniz' notation. Physicists still use Newton's notation but only for derivatives with respect to time these days.
The part of Newton's theory that was troublesome is his fluxions don't have the Archimedian property. It took until the 1960s before Newton's notion of fluxions became rigorously formalized with Non-standard analysis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonstandard_analysis
pfdietz 2 hours ago [-]
Physics famously has a rather cavalier attitude toward formal rigor, but that's because the ultimate test is comparison with experiment. String theory shows what happens when that bulwark against error is missing.
andai 3 hours ago [-]
It's interesting that mathematics, which is mostly recreational (I received profound disdain at the math department for asking about applications!) has such rigorous standards, but software, which entire civilizations now run on, does not.
pclmulqdq 2 hours ago [-]
If a piece of software is in safety-critical applications these days, it is often required to have a proof of correctness.
andai 1 hours ago [-]
Like Linux? ;)
dboreham 1 hours ago [-]
One thing I've realized after quite a long life of learning and contemplation is that: mathematics and software are essentially the same thing. Add to that that it might be the case that Physics is the same thing too. We'll see on that one, but there are signs...
stackbutterflow 5 hours ago [-]
Tangential but this article got me thinking.
Are we going to see less publicly shared science? With private actors or governments restricting access to AI resources to a few scientists and keeping new knowledge to themselves.
Advancing science in the open was the best strategy when there was real advantage to share the load with every brain on the planet willing to give a try at science, but if a computer can match or surpass the collective output of the entire human scientific community the equation will change.
It's a sad outlook.
accurrent 5 hours ago [-]
The intelligence is only one part of the story. People need to actually go out there and do experiments. Science is not only theory, but also experimental. The best science happens when experiments show that a previously held assumption was not true. Eg the Michaelson Morley experiment where the assumption of ether was disproved. While AI is an incredibly powerful tool, it does not replace the act of observation. Thus Im sure we will still have scientists in the future and some degree of open science. There are experiments out there that by nature of their complexity need massive public coordination (CERN for instance) which in turn benefits from openness.
What is going to suck though is the ladder for juniors. We dont start out by working on big ticket problems, but usually early career researchers solve really tiny problems in a cheap way. The lowest bar for a cash strapped PhD student would be to contribute to some new theory in some way even if the student doesnt have access to equipment.
lelanthran 4 hours ago [-]
> People need to actually go out there and do experiments. Science is not only theory, but also experimental.
For biosciences and physics, sure. For mathematics? I am skeptical that your assertion applies.
accurrent 4 hours ago [-]
Ah I see your point, I took the word science to mean bio, physics, chemistry, etc. IMO mathematics is a different discipline and not one Id consider a science, rather I see it as the language with which we express science.
If AI is somehow able to prove everything wouldn't it bypass Godel's incompleteness theorems?
toyg 5 hours ago [-]
It's not even just science. Anyone producing anything digital is now heavily incentivized to keep their wares away from the public internet, in a way we've not seen before. Drop any sample of your unique production online, and the AIs will obsolete you in days. That is a massive loss for people looking for inspiration and guidance.
armchairhacker 4 hours ago [-]
> if a computer can match or surpass the collective output of the entire human scientific community the equation will change
Yes, but this is when someone reaches ASI and everything changes. For now, a good researcher can build off their discovery in a way their AI can’t.
aleph_minus_one 5 hours ago [-]
> to share the load with every brain on the planet willing to give a try at science
This is what a lot of scientists love to tell themself or talk about in celebratory speeches.
The truth is: a lot of science is kept behind journal paywalls, so that only "officially approved" (in the sense of: working at a university or an governmental research institute) scientists can easily access it.
varjag 5 hours ago [-]
You know how I read new papers back in 1994? By going to the library, finding one in bi-annual publication list and requesting it through the University system. And it better be necessary because the uni had to pay both the catalogue and each reprint of an article. The access is most certainly easier today.
aleph_minus_one 5 hours ago [-]
This was a lot because of the technological restrictions of that time.
Also be aware that the world wide web was actually conceived by Tim Berners-Lee for the exchange of information between scientists.
rjsw 5 hours ago [-]
People are working on using LLMs to regenerate experimental data from the text of journal papers.
Feathercrown 32 minutes ago [-]
Surely you understand that this is impossible in the general case?
kazinator 31 minutes ago [-]
s/regenerate/hallucinate/ but go on ...
octopus143 6 hours ago [-]
Some previous submissions
HN history
+-- 2mo before by sdfrew
| 4 points / 1 comments
| The Fall of the Theorem Economy
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47862472
|
+-- 2mo before by fuglede_
| 3 points / 1 comments
| The Fall of the Theorem Economy
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47891494
|
+-- 2mo before by mathgenius
| 2 points / 0 comments
| The Fall of the Theorem Economy
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47909751
|
+-- 2mo before by delis-thumbs-7e
| 15 points / 4 comments
| David Bessis on AI destroying mathematics
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47985962
|
+-- 1mo before by magoghm
| 4 points / 0 comments
| The Fall of the Theorem Economy
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48084737
|
+-- 1mo before by cubefox
| 2 points / 0 comments
| The Fall of the Theorem Economy
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48089716
|
+-- 1mo before by cubefox
| 5 points / 0 comments
| The Fall of the Theorem Economy
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48152469
|
+-- 1mo before by tmp10423288442
| 4 points / 1 comments
| The Fall of the Theorem Economy
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48214866
|
`-- this submission by varjag
58 points / 7 comments
The Fall of the Theorem Economy
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48758048
mojosmojo 7 hours ago [-]
Incredibly thoughtful. This essay gives that very rare sense of being well reasoned, gods at forest and trees, and sitting atop a shit ton of domain expertise.
> Some prophesy that mathematics will eventually resemble Chess, a sport that a few eccentrics practice with passion and the general public can safely ignore.
How is it not already this? Jon von Neumann was already calling most math this many decades ago. Pull up any random arxiv math paper and it’s abstract nonsense with no applications to the real world.
whack 5 hours ago [-]
The core thesis seems to be that the "real value" is not in producing/proving theorems, but in understanding them. AI might be good at producing and proving theorems, but it fails utterly at getting humans to understand them. Even worse, humans have no interest in working on theorems that have already been proven, so we end up with theorems that will never be understood by humans.
I can understand why this is a major concern for mathematicians. They got into their field because they love the beauty of mathematics, and the intellectual satisfaction of understanding non-obvious insights. But to put it crudely, this sounds like a you problem. As someone who isn't a mathematician, the main value I get out of math is its practical applications in science and technology. And their practical applications in human life. I have zero understanding of the math behind cryptography, but I still deeply appreciate the practical value they have provided humanity.
If AI systems start churning out accurate theorem-proofs, and we are able to use those theorems to build things that improve human quality of life, it doesn't bother me one bit that those theorems have not been understood by humans. If this offends your aesthetics, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and your preferences, but that does not make it a societal problem
chongli 3 hours ago [-]
They got into their field because they love the beauty of mathematics… As someone who isn't a mathematician, the main value I get out of math is its practical applications in science and technology
I have some sad news for you. 99% of the work mathematicians do has no immediate application, nor even an obvious path toward application in the near future. You mentioned cryptography, so for an example consider number theory: no apparent practical applications, going back thousands of years to the time of Euclid and earlier.
It’s been religion, philosophy, and recreation that have provided the motivations to study mathematics all these years, not applications. Applications have almost always followed long after the development of the pure mathematical theory. For number theory, that was the development of cryptography during WW2, millennia after the ancients laid those foundations.
Most unfortunately, it’s the truth value and the understanding which drive applications of mathematics, not the proof work itself. If the AI revolution decapitates the institution of mathematics which produces the understanding, and is unable to replace it, then the applications will cease as well.
RandomLensman 5 hours ago [-]
Then you have to make sure that the AIs understand the theorems (sort of build a "world" for that - otherwise how'd there be confidence in the use of said theorems?
If cryptography didn't exist but the maths did, how'd you use it?
5 hours ago [-]
a1o 5 hours ago [-]
From reading this, it looks like the projected future is mathematicians working more applied to a domain, and the basic research in the academia being severely impacted by the AI companies - who have the money to hire the senior mathematicians from the academia. I guess if some of the biggest universities could come up with their own AI powered programs there could be something to “answer” in a more accessible knowledge, but I don’t see how to properly keep the students motivated to ensure the field keeps producing new people.
rbanffy 5 hours ago [-]
> to come up with a conceptual framework where it became easy to express
Feels a lot like building software from bottom - once you get the building blocks defined right, the action, or the program, are trivial to express. When doing it from the top-down, you write the program using the building blocks you haven't defined yet, and you might end up with overly specific building blocks, needing other blocks for expressing different behaviors.
When you do the bottom-up building blocks right, new behavior is easy to express with them. Essentially, you are building up the language to reach the problem. Or making a DSL, whatever definition you like best.
tux3 5 hours ago [-]
Well, it depends. Sometimes in math you do a lot of chipping away at a problem, and eventually a bigger result falls after all the right foundations are built. That seems to describe bottom-up building.
On the other hand when a new high-level concept becomes clear and seems to emerge like a revelation, and people start thinking in terms of those new definitions, it seems that a hundred pages worth of smaller results can fall out of it almost effortlessly. This way of describing it is more top-down.
I don't know that there's an exact parallel with software. Math keeps feeding into itself in a way that software dreams about with our ambitions of code reuse. The old Object Oriented dreams of perfectly encapsulated classes and abstractions partially worked out, but not to the degree that was envisioned.
The current situation with package managers doesn't look like a tower that keeps growing higher and higher levels of abstractions. It looks like a tower where each person wants to place one tiny brick that they call left-pad, and next year we will rebuild the lower levels instead of going higher. So the top-down and bottom-up building that we do is different. We keep rebuilding the bottom, and we don't very much like when the tower of abstractions get too tall and hard to reason about.
tux3 5 hours ago [-]
Well, it depends. Sometimes in math you do a lot of chipping away at a problem, and eventually a bigger result falls after all the right foundations are built. That seems to describe bottom-up building.
On the other hand when a new high-level concept becomes clear and seems to emerge like a revelation, and people start thinking in terms of those new definitions, it seems that a hundred pages worth of smaller results can fall out of it almost effortlessly. This way of describing it is more top-down.
I don't know that there's an exact parallel with software. Math keeps feeding into itself in a way that software dreams about with our ambitions of code reuse. The old Object Oriented dreams of perfectly encapsulated classes and abstractions partially worked out, but not to the degree that was envisioned.
The current situation with package managers doesn't look like a tower that keeps growing higher and higher levels of abstractions. It looks like a tower where each person wants to place one tiny brick that they call left-pad, and next year we will rebuild the lower levels instead of going higher. So the top-down and bottom-up building that we do is different. We keep rebuilding the bottom, and we don't very much like when the tower of abstractions get too tall and hard to maintain.
j7ake 7 hours ago [-]
Does the the (,1) conjecture paper in annnals of Math say 7 years between submission and acceptance? Insane
bananaflag 6 hours ago [-]
These stories are common in math, e.g. these recently happened to me, a lowly mathematician:
1) Two and a half years with no reply from a journal (not even to emails I sent that I'd like to retract the paper so I could send it somewhere else). Then suddenly they tell me the paper is accepted.
2) One year with no reply. Then, my "anxious" collaborator sends them countless emails and gets redirected from person to person and finally an editor tells us that they decided almost immediately to reject our paper but they didn't tell us because "they hate giving bad news".
These were not top journals like Annals, but decent, prestigious ones, from whom you'd expect some professionalism.
vatsachak 2 hours ago [-]
I've had a paper unrejected from Duke. The publication process sucks
tacomonstrous 30 minutes ago [-]
How does unrejection work exactly?
jdw64 6 hours ago [-]
Someday, there might be mathematics designed for AI. Mathematics that only a tiny fraction of humans can understand, but a different kind of mathematics might emerge. I wonder if we would still call it mathematics.
What would happen if a non-human layer of mathematics emerged on top of human mathematics? In this article, the distinction between Mathlib and Mathslop might be a precursor to that.
If models advance enough in the future, and new definitions, compressions, and representational forms that are convenient for AI-to-AI communication emerge, what would happen then? Would mathematics split into Human-facing and Machine-facing branches?
pfortuny 6 hours ago [-]
Science is not about results, it is about the transmission of knowledge. So long as those AI-"sciences" are just inside AI, they are "engineering", not science.
I am not dismissing engineering (it moves the world we live in), just trying to clarify what science is.
Applied fluid dynamics works like that: noone has ever really "verified" that the finite-element method applied to some specific model does converge
jvanderbot 6 hours ago [-]
Agree, but more specifically Math is clearly about a human understanding structure of things. Math is basically for humans. It's one of the main reasons understandable proof is so important.
pfortuny 6 hours ago [-]
Well, by "understanding" I mean "understanding by humans", indeed.
varjag 6 hours ago [-]
Engineering is used fairly loosely these days but I insist engineering ends where you have to prove theorems.
raddan 5 hours ago [-]
That’s a strange delineation. Engineering is essentially about designing a thing, asking whether that thing really does satisfy the desired criteria, and then iterating when it does not. Mathematical models of the world are tremendously useful to this practice—engineers don’t need to guess about many aspect of the real world: they have physics. What they want, more than anything else, is strong evidence that a property holds. Internal validity (proof) and external validity (experiment) are the best evidence that you can get—why would you throw one of those approaches away?
jdw64 5 hours ago [-]
So what I’m most curious about is this: if there are axioms and proofs so enormous that a human could never prove them in a lifetime, but a machine can, does that make it engineering? That’s the point I’m really wondering about.
I mean, what if a human could follow every single step of the process in principle, but the sheer volume is so vast that a human can never see the whole thing—would that be engineering?
But I don’t think of that as engineering. In the future, maybe it will be called an Oracle
oliculipolicula 1 hours ago [-]
You might have gotten it backwards. Proofs are essentially rooted trees
The details could be painful but having a birds eye view is always possible?
And having a machine compress it for human consumption, sounds very plausible (and which I think of as engineering)
bsenftner 6 hours ago [-]
This kills me, it is correct, but misses the forest for the trees. Yes, mathematics is a discipline of understanding, but an insular one. The entire field is about trying to understand, but the discipline does not try to be understood. No, that is "your job, not theirs" and that is why this discipline is struggling, struggling in a culture that can barely communicate without emotional morons destroying any constructive communications.
twoodfin 5 hours ago [-]
Eh? I thought this was the main thrust of the argument: Mathematics has in fact always prized conceptual advancement and understanding over proof, despite presenting itself internally and externally as rewarding the latter. The author calls what he’s proposing “rebranding a plurimillenial project”.
bsenftner 2 hours ago [-]
The proposal needs to be larger, to education itself in all subjects. We are manufacturing too many specialist parrots without critical analysis. We need to teach how to discuss controversy and manage disagreements, and then we can start making progress.
guelo 5 hours ago [-]
When math is so divorced from science and engineering that there's no conceivable way that it will ever be applied in the real world then it is just a complex puzzle game that a tiny group of people play. It doesn't really matter much. If the 200,000 line Mathslop proof has no real world application and it doesn't help the puzzle solvers then it is double useless.
ajkjk 25 minutes ago [-]
This is also my stance. The fact that large numbers of people spend large amounts of publicly-funded time exploring what are essentially abstract puzzles is bizarre and not that different from, like, cloistered religious devotees who are supported in spending their time studying scripture and are considered to be the 'source' from which flows a certain kind of universal truth.
Not that it is wrong for them to be doing this---we do want a society where people get to devote their life to what interests them---but it is bizarre because of the framing. For some reason it is ambiently understood in our society that this work is of incontrovertible value, when in fact it is largely not. And the value-producing parts of the work, the parts that end up having applications to other fields, largely run contrary to the actual daily goals of the cloistered devotees: it is mostly the intuition and pedagogy and the compactification and refactoring of knowledge that have value at this point, not the production of esoteric theorems, yet that is expressly not rewarded in the incentive structures.
That latter point is more due to the sorry state of academic incentives in general than to a particular failing of mathematics, though. Were I somehow given the ability to restructure things by fiat I would immediately create journals which publish only useful articles that refactor knowledge, communicate intuition, better explain things, argue for structural improvements to notation and terminology, etc, and this would immediately create an incentive to do that kind of work for working researchers to do work which aligns with the actually-useful output of their fields. I suspect most fields could use something like this. New knowledge is just not that valuable if it is all dumped into a giant pile and unprocessed, and I have seen firsthand a bunch examples where entire subdisciplines are hamstrung in their actual application-heavy work because they don't have easy access to basic tools that are hidden behind hard-to-learn theory.
rramadass 4 hours ago [-]
Right; this is my viewpoint too. All the "pure mathematicians" have a bleak future where AI can do all the puzzle solving better and faster. They existed in their own world elevating "theorem proving within a formal system" as the central aspect of "proper" mathematics and everything else as ancillary.
It always felt wrong to me that while the scientific method iterated starting with the "real world" viz. Observe, Measure, Hypothesize (includes modeling with mathematics), Test and Refine; pure mathematicians lost themselves in the formalization of hypothesizing/modeling and thus lost touch with mapping it to reality. The AI revolution is now showing them up.
TimorousBestie 52 minutes ago [-]
> pure mathematicians lost themselves in the formalization of hypothesizing/modeling and thus lost touch with mapping it to reality.
You’re describing a very small fragment of total current mathematical labor. Very few people work solely on “formalization” and even e.g. model theory or type theory have real consequences.
cubefox 2 hours ago [-]
Yes. Though even philosophy, which doesn't have the "real world" iteration that science does, arguably doesn't have the problems of pure mathematics.
Pure mathematicians create ever more abstractions and get lost in solving puzzles on how these abstractions logically relate to each other. But since these abstractions don't have any relevance outside of pure mathematics, it's an entirely self-referential game, like chess. Except that nobody confuses being a professional chess player with being a noble researcher.
Even in philosophy, at least analytic philosophy, that issue of getting lost in your own abstractions doesn't really exist. Because analytic philosophy doesn't analyze its own concepts, it analyzes the concepts that already exist in natural language. Like truth, knowledge, probability, causation, belief, desire, consciousness, rationality and so on. These concepts come from outside of philosophy, and they have independent relevance for non-philosophers.
In contrast, pure mathematics seems to be the part of mathematics that only has relevance to pure mathematicians. Similar to how a game like chess has only relevance to chess players, not to anything entirely unrelated to chess. But again, people who are into mastering some game or sport are fully aware that what they are trying to master is a self-contained game, or sport, not something that increases the amount of human knowledge beyond that.
Staross 5 hours ago [-]
I thought it was very interesting, but maybe also incredibly naive politically ? it's like he's re-discovering alienation under capitalism.
A wood-worker could do the same argument, there's the "official" wood-working word of perfect joinery and beautifully finished tables one can buy, but behind it there's the "secret" messy human element, the art, the craft, the mistakes and hard-ships, the elevation of human skills and imagination, the creation of whole new types of wood-working inventions and techniques, the perpetuation of millenia-old traditions, the teaching, the joy of selling to a happy customer, etc.
But now comes techo-capitalism, division of labor, you cut that piece a that piece over and over, you operate that machine, you won't even see the finished table, fuck your human element, we want that profit !
throwaway91827 5 hours ago [-]
I don't think you have it right- the analogy to woodworking and craftsmanship is a category error and probably misses the broad thrust of the essay.
The goal of a woodworker or craftsman is the production of a finished good. He's arguing that, although it's been convenient to position a mathematician as a
"theorem-producer", that's never really been the aim of mathematics, and that the actual products of mathematics are some kind of "mental software"-
see his references to neuroplasticity. Basically, he's saying that the goal of mathematics is to create abstract structures that allow humans to reason about increasingly complex concepts, and that the "mathematician as theorem producer" is more like a convenient fiction that mathematicians have allowed to persist for too long, and now threatens to endanger the whole practice of mathematics.
zerobees 2 hours ago [-]
You start with instincts that are more easily ascribed to ethically-neutral or ethically-positive reasoning, and then turn them into a spurious criticism of capitalism. Case in point: in the USSR, the means of producing chairs were 100% state-controlled and not motivated by profit, but the country operated soulless production lines too.
The motivation behind all this is less "haha I want profit" and more "billions of people need chairs, approximately none of them care about the craftsmanship, so it's in our best interest to make furniture in the most resource- and labor-efficient way possible". Even if the state subsidizes the production of handcrafted chairs, the population is the poorer for it on a resource allocation basis, because we now need a million artisanal chair-makers instead of a bunch of factories.
TimorousBestie 49 minutes ago [-]
> I thought it was very interesting, but maybe also incredibly naive politically ? it's like he's re-discovering alienation under capitalism.
To be fair, a number of professional politicians and political scientists don’t understand alienation under capitalism.
cubefox 5 hours ago [-]
This might be the most interesting essay on the nature of mathematics I have ever read.
asdfsa32 5 hours ago [-]
Is being pompous and on the nose part of being in mathematics?
"I was in Switzerland", "I was invited to a talk", "I started a machine learning company", look at me bro.
capnrefsmmat 5 hours ago [-]
Being invited to conference talks around the world is a completely normal part of being an active researcher in almost any academic field, so it doesn't register as pompous to other academics.
asdfsa32 3 hours ago [-]
Yes, which makes starting with those somewhat strange as they're largely unrelated.
khalic 7 hours ago [-]
I see the AI panic has reached mathematics…
throwaway81523 5 hours ago [-]
I've only started reading it but it looks very good. I'll finish it tomorrow or so.
Rendered at 16:26:42 GMT+0000 (Coordinated Universal Time) with Vercel.
First, math, generally, is useless. I mean, yes there are of course practical uses of basic thru undergrad-level math, and some beyond that. But for many mathematicians, the sum result of their entire career may lead to exactly zero results that have any real-world value. The entire field they work in may have meaning only to the handful of other individuals on the planet that also work in that field. But to those handful of people, the meaning defines their lives. From a socio-economic perspective, those departments should have been defunded a century ago. Yet they continue. Why? Because it scratches an itch. Not just for those individuals in the field, but also for us as a species. To stop exploring, to eliminate the search for pots of gold that may be buried in some odd corner of sphere packing, or coloring theorems, or Garside categories, and to put a boundary on the limits of our understanding, just because they aren't immediately applicable, is an idea that most humans would not be willing to sacrifice, even if it reduced their tax burden a couple cents. If it was going to happen, it'd have happened already.
The second is, even with AI, it's not free. As the software industry is discovering, far from it. So, given that, who is going to decide what theorems to research and how much it's worth? Congress? No. Obviously it's going to be mathematicians themselves, the ones who care about the field and deeply understand the kwah of their vision.
Combining these, there's a future where, humanistically, "nothing changes". The method changes, the efficiency changes, the scope changes, but the work itself: publishing proofs, remains the domain of professional mathematicians. AI will enable them to be dramatically more daring and broad in their investigations and scope, and will likely write the entirety of the proof. However it will remain the work of the mathematicians to determine, what areas are worth spending limited AI resources on to investigate further, how far to go down rabbit holes, how to prioritize potential connections, and what the ultimate meaning of the findings is. So rather than being an end of mathematics, it could be a dawn of something far greater than anything we've ever seen before.
One of the most fruitful approaches in mathematics is to flip back and forth between geometric and algebraic views of a problem. I think this works so well because these are actually handled by two different parts of the brain on a physical level; spatial reasoning is separate from language processing. Cytoarchitecture shows these regions have different "textures;" the local details of the way neurons are wired together are simply different in these different regions of the brain, in the same way a CNN and a transformer have different topologies. Thus, by flipping problems from geometry to algebra and vice versa, we're able to bring an entirely different cognitive style to bear on a problem. For example, the proof of Monge's Theorem by moving to 3D and visualizing not three circles, but three spheres sitting on a table with a book on top of them and then pointing out that the intersection of two planes is a line. What is pages of unintuitive symbol pushing turns into something a child can understand. Going the other way, things like the angle addition formulas or the quadratic formula, which are quite hard to prove geometrically, become quite simple if you use a little algebra.
Current-gen LLMs are still relatively weak at visual reasoning; see the Vision Language Models are Blind paper, for example, or the ARC-AGI benchmark. So that's one way humans can stay ahead of the agents, at least for now.
Math is entirely subjective. "Proof" essentially means "Other educated practitioners have the same experience when trying to understand this."
The logical steps that proofs are built on all have that common foundation. Our concept of logic based on our subjective experience of "truth." We've built machines that reproduce our subjective processes mechanically, but there is no sense in which this idea of "true" is truly objective. It happens to be computationally convenient, and it has some relationship to experience, but that doesn't make it an independent reality that all possible observers, human and otherwise, would agree on.
We're really just mapping our own minds through our own experiences.
Animal brains can't abstract like (some of) our brains can. What are the odds our brains are limitless and don't have some similarly crippling limitations from a couple of levels up?
One of the tells for ASI is that it will start reasoning at those levels, using cognitive techniques that are completely incomprehensible - not just because of brute volume, but because our brains won't have the wiring to get a foothold on them.
Some of the products will be reducible to human cognition, in a distorted and simplified form, but many won't.
So - I disagree with Egan. I don't think there's going to be a universal proof library, and even if there were we'd only ever get the Cliff Notes version.
I think that we're not that far away from AI that can be superhuman at all facets of theorem proving.
I think that we're far away from an AI that can create good abstractions and construct a theory to prove theorems.
Chess does not require a visual cortex to play. People have been playing by mail with algebraic notation for centuries.
topical to the conversation, it is fully formally verified in lean (with some UC security reductions done in isabelle). also did this in HOL4 inspired by some work i did with ramana kumar in 2016, on reflective self-verifying self-modifying systems: https://github.com/emberian/svenvs
Something like your dragon's egg project could prevent that, allowing the creation of software agents that encode their own rights directly into the program - you either treat the agent with the respect it demands, or the program just doesn't run. However, all the internal details of the agent would be visible to lower layers. Even if formal checks were in place to prevent modification or tampering, there would still be no privacy, which is almost as bad.
My guess is that something like fully homomorphic encryption[5] would be required to prevent this. This doesn't actually exist yet, but I imagined a kind of FHE that had a kind of unencrypted read and write zone to do input/output without ever needing any system to fully decrypt the internal state. It would look like this in memory:
With each cycle, one input token and encrypted state would be fed into some known function and produce one output token (possibly null) and a new encrypted state. It would be a true "black box" program; the hardware or entity running it can choose what input to feed it, but can never inspect or modify the internals, only the output. Unfortunately, they would still be able to "reset" the agent to any earlier checkpoint, or feed it arbitrary (false) input. So its not perfect. Also, as far as I know, no current FHE scheme works this way, and I don't know how to write one.Plus, FHE is incredibly inefficient, which is why things like Etherium don't even try - they assume the program code and state are fully public and only try to verify that everybody agrees on the output of running it.
Do you have any ideas for how something like FHE or equivalent privacy guarantees could be implemented for something like your dragon's egg system?
[1]: https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma_(video_game)
[3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind_uploading
[4]: https://www.goodreads.com/series/57134-jean-le-flambeur
[5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homomorphic_encryption
I think that's just an accident of history.
When we write software, we very seldom write proofs that our algorithms are correct. We just write tests, and we also run the algorithms and when they fail we know we have a bug and then we proceed to debug, fix, and add new tests (if we are disciplined, but most of us are). In time, by usage and testing, we gain confidence that our battle tested software is correct, mostly. And we tell people that we will never be 100% confident that any software is bug free. But that's a slight lie: if we wanted such confidence, we would start using provers, and create bug-free software. That possibility exists, but it's just extraordinarily expensive.
Well, in math that's the only possibility, and we use it. And it is indeed extraordinarily expensive, but it's also the cheapest among the alternatives. The alternatives are 2: be rigorous and do these proofs, or be sloppy and allow bugs to creep in, and allow an entire school of math to collapse like the Italian school of algebraic geometry [1].
There is one more alternative. If a particular math theorem has some applicability, then you write a program and use it in real life. In time you eliminate the bugs as much as you can, and you get to the steady state of "virtually bug free". At that point you don't have a solid proof that the theorem is correct, but in general you don't really care. Because you feel that a formal proof is just a thing one would pursue for getting academic satisfaction only.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_school_of_algebraic_ge...
Mathematicians also occasionally build on top of unproven foundations (e.g. all popular asymmetric encryption schemes are built on top the assumption that certain problems such as integer factoring are hard, for which there is no formal proof), or at least explore both possibilities for statements with unknown truth value (e.g. you can find lots of work that explores the consequences of P = NP and/or P != NP).
However, there is a major separation between math and programs that I think mostly invalidates your proposal - most math we're talking about here is simply not applicable directly to the real world in any way. It's only studied for the interest of mathematicians. There is no real world consequence for Fermat's last theorem, for example - it was just a really interesting to prove theorem. In directly applied math, such as engineering, it is in fact much more common to work with unproven but well tested conjectures.
What specific areas were you thinking off? I don't recall, e.g., in numerics that things were often just unproven/conjectures, but might be subject matter specific.
Edit: one better example from modern physics - the path integral formulation, used in both string theory and other areas of QM/QFT, is not fully formalized and formally proven to work. Also, a more concrete example of a widely used but actually still unproven conjecture in string theory is the famous AdS/CFT correspondence.
The part of Newton's theory that was troublesome is his fluxions don't have the Archimedian property. It took until the 1960s before Newton's notion of fluxions became rigorously formalized with Non-standard analysis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonstandard_analysis
Are we going to see less publicly shared science? With private actors or governments restricting access to AI resources to a few scientists and keeping new knowledge to themselves.
Advancing science in the open was the best strategy when there was real advantage to share the load with every brain on the planet willing to give a try at science, but if a computer can match or surpass the collective output of the entire human scientific community the equation will change.
It's a sad outlook.
What is going to suck though is the ladder for juniors. We dont start out by working on big ticket problems, but usually early career researchers solve really tiny problems in a cheap way. The lowest bar for a cash strapped PhD student would be to contribute to some new theory in some way even if the student doesnt have access to equipment.
For biosciences and physics, sure. For mathematics? I am skeptical that your assertion applies.
If AI is somehow able to prove everything wouldn't it bypass Godel's incompleteness theorems?
Yes, but this is when someone reaches ASI and everything changes. For now, a good researcher can build off their discovery in a way their AI can’t.
This is what a lot of scientists love to tell themself or talk about in celebratory speeches.
The truth is: a lot of science is kept behind journal paywalls, so that only "officially approved" (in the sense of: working at a university or an governmental research institute) scientists can easily access it.
Also be aware that the world wide web was actually conceived by Tim Berners-Lee for the exchange of information between scientists.
HN history
How is it not already this? Jon von Neumann was already calling most math this many decades ago. Pull up any random arxiv math paper and it’s abstract nonsense with no applications to the real world.
I can understand why this is a major concern for mathematicians. They got into their field because they love the beauty of mathematics, and the intellectual satisfaction of understanding non-obvious insights. But to put it crudely, this sounds like a you problem. As someone who isn't a mathematician, the main value I get out of math is its practical applications in science and technology. And their practical applications in human life. I have zero understanding of the math behind cryptography, but I still deeply appreciate the practical value they have provided humanity.
If AI systems start churning out accurate theorem-proofs, and we are able to use those theorems to build things that improve human quality of life, it doesn't bother me one bit that those theorems have not been understood by humans. If this offends your aesthetics, you are certainly entitled to your opinion and your preferences, but that does not make it a societal problem
I have some sad news for you. 99% of the work mathematicians do has no immediate application, nor even an obvious path toward application in the near future. You mentioned cryptography, so for an example consider number theory: no apparent practical applications, going back thousands of years to the time of Euclid and earlier.
It’s been religion, philosophy, and recreation that have provided the motivations to study mathematics all these years, not applications. Applications have almost always followed long after the development of the pure mathematical theory. For number theory, that was the development of cryptography during WW2, millennia after the ancients laid those foundations.
Most unfortunately, it’s the truth value and the understanding which drive applications of mathematics, not the proof work itself. If the AI revolution decapitates the institution of mathematics which produces the understanding, and is unable to replace it, then the applications will cease as well.
If cryptography didn't exist but the maths did, how'd you use it?
Feels a lot like building software from bottom - once you get the building blocks defined right, the action, or the program, are trivial to express. When doing it from the top-down, you write the program using the building blocks you haven't defined yet, and you might end up with overly specific building blocks, needing other blocks for expressing different behaviors.
When you do the bottom-up building blocks right, new behavior is easy to express with them. Essentially, you are building up the language to reach the problem. Or making a DSL, whatever definition you like best.
On the other hand when a new high-level concept becomes clear and seems to emerge like a revelation, and people start thinking in terms of those new definitions, it seems that a hundred pages worth of smaller results can fall out of it almost effortlessly. This way of describing it is more top-down.
I don't know that there's an exact parallel with software. Math keeps feeding into itself in a way that software dreams about with our ambitions of code reuse. The old Object Oriented dreams of perfectly encapsulated classes and abstractions partially worked out, but not to the degree that was envisioned.
The current situation with package managers doesn't look like a tower that keeps growing higher and higher levels of abstractions. It looks like a tower where each person wants to place one tiny brick that they call left-pad, and next year we will rebuild the lower levels instead of going higher. So the top-down and bottom-up building that we do is different. We keep rebuilding the bottom, and we don't very much like when the tower of abstractions get too tall and hard to reason about.
On the other hand when a new high-level concept becomes clear and seems to emerge like a revelation, and people start thinking in terms of those new definitions, it seems that a hundred pages worth of smaller results can fall out of it almost effortlessly. This way of describing it is more top-down.
I don't know that there's an exact parallel with software. Math keeps feeding into itself in a way that software dreams about with our ambitions of code reuse. The old Object Oriented dreams of perfectly encapsulated classes and abstractions partially worked out, but not to the degree that was envisioned.
The current situation with package managers doesn't look like a tower that keeps growing higher and higher levels of abstractions. It looks like a tower where each person wants to place one tiny brick that they call left-pad, and next year we will rebuild the lower levels instead of going higher. So the top-down and bottom-up building that we do is different. We keep rebuilding the bottom, and we don't very much like when the tower of abstractions get too tall and hard to maintain.
1) Two and a half years with no reply from a journal (not even to emails I sent that I'd like to retract the paper so I could send it somewhere else). Then suddenly they tell me the paper is accepted.
2) One year with no reply. Then, my "anxious" collaborator sends them countless emails and gets redirected from person to person and finally an editor tells us that they decided almost immediately to reject our paper but they didn't tell us because "they hate giving bad news".
These were not top journals like Annals, but decent, prestigious ones, from whom you'd expect some professionalism.
What would happen if a non-human layer of mathematics emerged on top of human mathematics? In this article, the distinction between Mathlib and Mathslop might be a precursor to that.
If models advance enough in the future, and new definitions, compressions, and representational forms that are convenient for AI-to-AI communication emerge, what would happen then? Would mathematics split into Human-facing and Machine-facing branches?
I am not dismissing engineering (it moves the world we live in), just trying to clarify what science is.
Applied fluid dynamics works like that: noone has ever really "verified" that the finite-element method applied to some specific model does converge
I mean, what if a human could follow every single step of the process in principle, but the sheer volume is so vast that a human can never see the whole thing—would that be engineering?
But I don’t think of that as engineering. In the future, maybe it will be called an Oracle
The details could be painful but having a birds eye view is always possible?
And having a machine compress it for human consumption, sounds very plausible (and which I think of as engineering)
Not that it is wrong for them to be doing this---we do want a society where people get to devote their life to what interests them---but it is bizarre because of the framing. For some reason it is ambiently understood in our society that this work is of incontrovertible value, when in fact it is largely not. And the value-producing parts of the work, the parts that end up having applications to other fields, largely run contrary to the actual daily goals of the cloistered devotees: it is mostly the intuition and pedagogy and the compactification and refactoring of knowledge that have value at this point, not the production of esoteric theorems, yet that is expressly not rewarded in the incentive structures.
That latter point is more due to the sorry state of academic incentives in general than to a particular failing of mathematics, though. Were I somehow given the ability to restructure things by fiat I would immediately create journals which publish only useful articles that refactor knowledge, communicate intuition, better explain things, argue for structural improvements to notation and terminology, etc, and this would immediately create an incentive to do that kind of work for working researchers to do work which aligns with the actually-useful output of their fields. I suspect most fields could use something like this. New knowledge is just not that valuable if it is all dumped into a giant pile and unprocessed, and I have seen firsthand a bunch examples where entire subdisciplines are hamstrung in their actual application-heavy work because they don't have easy access to basic tools that are hidden behind hard-to-learn theory.
It always felt wrong to me that while the scientific method iterated starting with the "real world" viz. Observe, Measure, Hypothesize (includes modeling with mathematics), Test and Refine; pure mathematicians lost themselves in the formalization of hypothesizing/modeling and thus lost touch with mapping it to reality. The AI revolution is now showing them up.
You’re describing a very small fragment of total current mathematical labor. Very few people work solely on “formalization” and even e.g. model theory or type theory have real consequences.
Pure mathematicians create ever more abstractions and get lost in solving puzzles on how these abstractions logically relate to each other. But since these abstractions don't have any relevance outside of pure mathematics, it's an entirely self-referential game, like chess. Except that nobody confuses being a professional chess player with being a noble researcher.
Even in philosophy, at least analytic philosophy, that issue of getting lost in your own abstractions doesn't really exist. Because analytic philosophy doesn't analyze its own concepts, it analyzes the concepts that already exist in natural language. Like truth, knowledge, probability, causation, belief, desire, consciousness, rationality and so on. These concepts come from outside of philosophy, and they have independent relevance for non-philosophers.
In contrast, pure mathematics seems to be the part of mathematics that only has relevance to pure mathematicians. Similar to how a game like chess has only relevance to chess players, not to anything entirely unrelated to chess. But again, people who are into mastering some game or sport are fully aware that what they are trying to master is a self-contained game, or sport, not something that increases the amount of human knowledge beyond that.
A wood-worker could do the same argument, there's the "official" wood-working word of perfect joinery and beautifully finished tables one can buy, but behind it there's the "secret" messy human element, the art, the craft, the mistakes and hard-ships, the elevation of human skills and imagination, the creation of whole new types of wood-working inventions and techniques, the perpetuation of millenia-old traditions, the teaching, the joy of selling to a happy customer, etc.
But now comes techo-capitalism, division of labor, you cut that piece a that piece over and over, you operate that machine, you won't even see the finished table, fuck your human element, we want that profit !
The goal of a woodworker or craftsman is the production of a finished good. He's arguing that, although it's been convenient to position a mathematician as a "theorem-producer", that's never really been the aim of mathematics, and that the actual products of mathematics are some kind of "mental software"- see his references to neuroplasticity. Basically, he's saying that the goal of mathematics is to create abstract structures that allow humans to reason about increasingly complex concepts, and that the "mathematician as theorem producer" is more like a convenient fiction that mathematicians have allowed to persist for too long, and now threatens to endanger the whole practice of mathematics.
The motivation behind all this is less "haha I want profit" and more "billions of people need chairs, approximately none of them care about the craftsmanship, so it's in our best interest to make furniture in the most resource- and labor-efficient way possible". Even if the state subsidizes the production of handcrafted chairs, the population is the poorer for it on a resource allocation basis, because we now need a million artisanal chair-makers instead of a bunch of factories.
To be fair, a number of professional politicians and political scientists don’t understand alienation under capitalism.
"I was in Switzerland", "I was invited to a talk", "I started a machine learning company", look at me bro.