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It seems that the age of reading might be a short anomaly in human history (theatlantic.com)
_doctor_love 2 hours ago [-]
We were in an age of reading? I gave up about 10 years ago on people as readers. I have recommended so many books and articles to software people over the years and it's honestly depressing how many people have told me they don't like to read.

Like...you're a programmer? And you don't like to read? I assumed that people who enjoy software would be into intellectual stimulation but I've learned that this is wrong. More what seems to be the case is people have enjoyed coding as a kind of video game.

But this generalizes to the general population too. Marshall McLuhan's message remains a very important medium.

SkyPuncher 5 minutes ago [-]
I love learning, but I hate reading. Most of my learning now is via audio books while I'm doing something else.

In my view, software development is mostly skimming and pattern recognization. Very little actual, deep reeding in my opinion.

WhrRTheBaboons 47 seconds ago [-]
>Most of my learning now is via audio books while I'm doing something else.

You're not actually learning anything then. Memorizing trivia, sure. But not actually learning.

GrumpyYoungMan 1 hours ago [-]
> "I assumed that people who enjoy software would be into intellectual stimulation but I've learned that this is wrong."

It was truer in the 1980s-1990s, when programming was not a prestigious or high paying job and computers were much cruder and required much more skill to get adequate performance from them. Generally, aspiring hackers were very well read people.

There were, of course, corporate programmers doing business programming back then too but they weren't considered hackers and wouldn't even have wanted themselves to be considered hackers.

cosmic_cheese 1 hours ago [-]
Given that I have mental bandwidth available, I enjoy a mentally stimulating read (though, the definition of that surely varies between individuals), but people do indeed come into programming from a variety of different angles.

What initially attracted me to programming was the ability it gives one to create. As a kid the idea that a “regular” person like myself could make computer programs — and not just simple CLI toys but full on lovingly crafted, end user friendly complex GUI applications — blew my mind. Programs weren’t like every nearly every other product which only ever came out of some factory that nobody saw themselves.

As such my interest in programming comes with a slant towards practical usability. I don’t do well with abstract concepts without a rock solid grounding real world use case, even though those are intellectual candy for a few subgroups of programmers.

wvenable 34 minutes ago [-]
> I assumed that people who enjoy software would be into intellectual stimulation but I've learned that this is wrong.

Perhaps the fact that our jobs are intellectual is the problem. I find that at the end of the day I don't have the capacity for intellectual pursuits and I find physical hobbies / activities more relaxing. I suspect the opposite is probably also true.

not-kinsale-joe 1 hours ago [-]
Can you recommend me a book to read?
wcarss 56 minutes ago [-]
It's difficult to recommend things without knowing a reader's taste, but I blanket recommend The Stars My Destination, by Alfred Bester.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Stars_My_Destination

wincy 50 minutes ago [-]
Theft of Fire is my favorite book in the last ten years for sure.

https://devoneriksen.com/products/theft-of-fire-orbital-spac...

throw4847285 42 minutes ago [-]
How about an Elmore Leonard novel? Very digestible novels from a deceptively skilled craftsman.
breezybottom 1 hours ago [-]
Programming probably is more intellectually stimulating than reading fiction novels.
ksenzee 51 minutes ago [-]
As someone with a degree in literature, I'm gonna disagree there. It depends on both the novel and the programming.
GPerson 52 minutes ago [-]
It’s not.

Novels are fiction by the way.

breezybottom 48 minutes ago [-]
Yes? What's so important about novels? They're a relatively recent innovation in literature.
retrac 51 seconds ago [-]
I think a reasonable definition of "novel" is a long-form work in prose, that tells narrative stories, often looking at individual families and characters and their development over time.

In that sense, novels are not that novel and there are novels preserved from classical antiquity, India's golden age, and medieval China.

AlotOfReading 21 minutes ago [-]
By what standard are novels "recent"? The earliest novels we have originated not long after the first books (aka codices) appeared. The first modern novel was written at the same time as the king james bible, over 400 years ago.
wbl 5 minutes ago [-]
The epic and the play are several thousand years older. Novels are the newest kind of literature, even if it has been a few centuries at this point.
throw4847285 43 minutes ago [-]
I see that pedantry is more intellectually stimulating than either programming or reading!
hsuduebc2 1 hours ago [-]
I gave up reading when I got my first portable computer. Not sure why. But after some time I got sick of it and got back to reading and I love it!

For some reason I suddenly got an urge to read long deep fantasy. Storm light archive is perfect for this, I recommend play some fantasy reading music on background. It's a bliss, especially in summer afternoon with cold coffe.

57 minutes ago [-]
gosub100 2 hours ago [-]
I gave up on reading because the authors want to spend a considerable number of pages telling me the color of the buttons on an imaginary character's outfit. They have no such right to waste my time with (or even worse, charge me money for) that.
AlotOfReading 1 hours ago [-]
No one says "I gave up on eating because restaurants kept serving me spicy food". You just order different food. A short story that's a couple pages long isn't going to waste them describing the color of buttons, and not every novelist is Tolkien.
phyzix5761 1 hours ago [-]
Books have a built in fast-forward feature.
hsuduebc2 1 hours ago [-]
Then maybe you should not read prose. It is about conveying an experience, a story. You might have simply picked a bad author. Personally, I prefer long reads. I understand that some people might not enjoy that style of storytelling, but saying “give up reading” overall is a shame. Try something like Warhammer 40k novels. They are simple, entertaining, and split into shorter parts. What you are describing does not happen there.
tomwheeler 3 hours ago [-]
The headline absolves me from reading the article. My work here is done.
functionmouse 1 hours ago [-]
It's true; I also started reading the comments before clicking the article. Show of hands?
RobKohr 27 minutes ago [-]
I made it about 15% through the article, but that is a about normal for the Atlantic.

They generally get their point across and then rattle on for more time than I am interested in reading.

Guess I'm part of the post literate world. I also perfer short stories instead of novels.

notreading26 51 minutes ago [-]
Well, you missed this:

>Of course, the new republic was not always a haven for sober analysis. The Founding Fathers attacked their enemies in the papers, spreading lies to incite the public against their opponents. One ally of Thomas Jefferson’s called John Adams “a hideous hermaphroditical character which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman.”

lp4v4n 2 hours ago [-]
It's been my impression that classic literature is going the same way as painting and other forms of high art.

It was certainly a great display of human intellectual prowess and artistic capacity in bygone times when the world moved at a much slower pace, but who has the time and the energy to read a long novel today?

Even cinema is dying and nobody seems to care that much.

smith7018 2 hours ago [-]
Many people still read novels. I live in NYC and see numerous people read books and Kindles every day on the train.

> Even cinema is dying and nobody seems to care that much

It's being replaced with an even longer form of visual media; the mini series. Stories that used to be told in an hour and a half are now being told in 8 hour-long segments

flenserboy 2 hours ago [-]
which could, for the most part, be boiled down to 2 hour-long segments. so much is stretched out for the sake of padding. the good news is that scrubbing through shows is possible — it is usually painfully clear when to stop & watch at double speed — & time otherwise lost is recovered in this way.
nchmy 1 hours ago [-]
If you were watching quality material, you wouldn't be scrubbing through it...

Eg I've just finished watching Andor for the 3rd time, normal speed.

deadbabe 1 hours ago [-]
Not really.

Movies are good for plot oriented stories, with clear beginning, middle, and end.

But they are not ideal for more character driven or lore oriented content.

Long slow burning stories told over many episodes let you really show many facets of characters and also opportunities to hint at a much larger world than what can be shown within 2 hours.

bluGill 59 minutes ago [-]
TV has always been about characters - they couldn't do a plot well because they well knew regular viewers would once in a while not be able to watch an episode and so they can't found on your knowing what happened last time - people would miss. TV needed a way to get people to watch as many shows as possible, and that meant getting you involved in the characters, and write stories that could be watched in any order.

Movies meanwhile had a long time between the next one and so you couldn't get people deeply involved in the characters. However you had enough to pull off a slightly complex plot and so that is what movies did.

black_knight 48 minutes ago [-]
I miss when episodes were episodic. Watched Deep Space 9 recently, and it was such a blast: Characters developed and had arches, but there were no episodes where nothing happened! In more recently produced tv series there are so many episodes where nothing happens. There is no story, just vibes. In DS9 every episode was a story with a beginning, middle and end, exploring some idea.
esseph 28 minutes ago [-]
> It's being replaced with an even longer form of visual media; the mini series

Short form video on YouTube, TikTok, and various AI short form video apps are also spiking in popularity.

vlucas 1 hours ago [-]
> Even cinema is dying and nobody seems to care that much.

Cinema is dying from mostly self-inflicted wounds though. They keep making movies (or re-making movies) with bad writing, bad stories, and unrealistic character development arcs that not many people want to watch.

Good movies have been rewarded in theatres. Top Gun: Maverick, Obsession, Project Hail Mary, etc. all had great box office sales when other movies around them flopped.

piltdownman 39 minutes ago [-]
'Movies' at Blockbuster level pivoted to ersatz carnival rides post-'Pirates of the Caribbean', focusing on safe IPs and simple plots designed to aid comprehension of the major story beats in the SEA markets without the need to resort to subtitles or dubbing.

'True' Cinema has been going from strength to strength the last decade, with even Netflix putting out Fincher spectacles like 'Mank' on streaming, and A24 bringing introducing a new audience to phenomenal Korean Cinema like 'Parasite' and 'Minari'.

Even in the traditional studio system we have been spoilt in recent years by a succession of Palm D'Or and Oscar winners like Anatomy of a Fall, Triangle of Sadness, Zone of Interest, The Brutalist, Oppenheimer and Killers of the Flower Moon.

areoform 1 hours ago [-]

    Top Gun: Maverick, Obsession, Project Hail Mary
Those movies might be good, but cinema are they not.

Cinema traditionally has meant movies like, À bout de souffle and Citizen Kane.

nozzlegear 1 hours ago [-]
No True Cinephile would enjoy a movie like Top Gun: Maverick, Obsession or Project Hail Mary.

/s

breezybottom 57 minutes ago [-]
Even accepting that Project Hail Mary, Obsession, and Top Gun are "good movies" (which I completely reject), you're cherry-picking. The top three films of the year are Super Mario Galaxy, Michael, and The Devil Wears Prada 2.
cjpearson 1 hours ago [-]
Energy is more difficult to gauge, but the average American has over 5 hours of leisure time daily. When there was more of a time crunch in the past, Americans read more.
breezybottom 1 hours ago [-]
Cinema is dying? Hollywood is on track to have its best year since 2019. Where do people come up with this stuff?
Tade0 57 minutes ago [-]
Is that inflation adjusted?

Apparently the peak year for Hollywood was 2002, with $9.2b domestic box office (16.1b inflation adjusted).

tsunamifury 57 minutes ago [-]
Inflation adjusted outcomes and overall ticket sales down 30-40%

Overall ticket sales Globally are down 46% since 2000.

Please learn to tell financial engineering headlines from reality.

breezybottom 49 minutes ago [-]
I'd suggest you do the same. You may want to believe that cinema is "dying", but none of the numbers support that argument.
tsunamifury 12 minutes ago [-]
Buddy, I just laid out the exact numbers that show less people go to cinema by almost half. The defintion of dying.

And beyond that if you go deeper, the revenue growth is almost entirely attribured to higher prices in ticket sales while attendance in real terms continues to decline.

What are you struggling with here?

zeroonetwothree 48 minutes ago [-]
Ticket prices seem to have increased slower than general inflation
invalidusernam3 1 hours ago [-]
I think it's mostly due to mobile phones. Most people seem to spend a substantial amount of their free time staring at their phone screen rather than engaging with books or other forms of entertainment. Phones being bite sized entertainment orientated is probably changing the way people feel about longer forms.
ksenzee 47 minutes ago [-]
I read novels voraciously, all of them on my phone. I haven't bought a paper book for myself in maybe a decade.
surgical_fire 33 minutes ago [-]
> Even cinema is dying and nobody seems to care that much.

Ever since cinema got reduced to the next Marvel superhero movie, I stopped caring about it.

lapcat 2 hours ago [-]
> who has the time and the energy to read a long novel today?

Anyone who has the time and energy to spend on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter/X, or for that matter, anyone who has the time and energy to spend watching TV.

palmotea 1 hours ago [-]
>> who has the time and the energy to read a long novel today?

> Anyone who has the time and energy to spend on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter/X, or for that matter, anyone who has the time and energy to spend watching TV.

Most of those are passive entertainments, suitable for people who've been drained of the energy to do anything else.

lapcat 1 hours ago [-]
I read while lying on the couch, my head resting on a pillow. Is that not passive enough?
bluGill 57 minutes ago [-]
You are good at reading so it is passive. Someone who doesn't read much is not good at it, and so no reading is passive. Get that person to read some more and eventually they get good and it can become passive, but for most it is not.

I could watch TV passively (I don't watch TV, but I could). However if you switched my TV for one that received only Spanish - I have enough Spanish that I could understand, but it wouldn't be passive for me, it would be hard work to understand.

lapcat 1 minutes ago [-]
> Someone who doesn't read much is not good at it, and so no reading is passive.

How did people get worse at reading, other than choosing to spend time on the alternative activities that I listed? You may be reversing cause and effect.

palmotea 54 minutes ago [-]
> I read while lying on the couch, my head resting on a pillow. Is that not passive enough?

Obviously I meant mentally passive, not physically passive.

lapcat 4 minutes ago [-]
I wouldn't call social media relaxing. After all, it's known as doomscrolling. I think reading is actually more relaxing. Social media is addictive, like a drug. Nobody calls cocaine relaxing.
palmotea 1 hours ago [-]
> bygone times when the world moved at a much slower pace, but who has the time and the energy to read a long novel today?

Capitalism is "fixing the glitch" of workers having space energy. I hope soon we'll achieve the ideal bimodal distribution of labor: work intensified to the point where workers that have the energy for nothing but work, and the impoverished totally unemployed that we can just corral and forget about.

dash2 9 minutes ago [-]
This is one of those very common ideas that cannot survive a ten second encounter with the facts: https://ourworldindata.org/working-more-than-ever
nozzlegear 1 hours ago [-]
How does this viewpoint account for the times when "capitalism" was, by all objective measures, worse for laborers? I.E. the early industrialization period when laborers worked 14-16 hour days alongside children in factories and mines, risking life and limb?
palmotea 53 minutes ago [-]
The brief nightmare where workers had enough power to demand better conditions is thankfully ending, and we can return the happy days where workers would slave away for just enough compensation to sustain themselves, and they'd be happy to do it because they had no better options.
lynndotpy 19 minutes ago [-]
This is a nit-pick, and I agree with the long arc of this article. (And it is very well-written, to boot). But, on this phenomenon,

> Last year’s top-selling novel was Sunrise on the Reaping, the latest in the Hunger Games young-adult series. Brian Bannon, the chief librarian at the New York Public Library, told me that young-adult fiction is one of the library’s most popular offerings—including among decidedly not-young adults.

I wonder to what extent this can be attributed to decades-long release windows for some of these novels. I find myself alienated by the dominance of simple and childrens media among my age group peers, but I read Eragon as a child, kept up with the series, and have the 2023 release in the Eragon series on my books-to-read list. The Hunger Games started in 2008; I couldn't bemoan someone who was captivated at 13 then for enjoying the occasional release in 2025.

apparent 2 hours ago [-]
> Adult-literacy scores have also dropped: Nearly 30 percent of American adults cannot paraphrase or make inferences from a multipage text. In 2017, that number was less than 20 percent.

Shrinking the passages on the SAT from full-page to a few sentences will exacerbate this trend.

AnimalMuppet 42 minutes ago [-]
Hmm. If someone knew the number of graduates from 2017 to 2026, they could estimate what fraction of them could paraphrase and make inferences.

My stab at it: Looks like about 36 million high school graduates from 2017 to 2026. The US population is about 350 million.

20% of 350 million is 70 million, so 70 million people couldn't paraphrase in 2017. 30% is 105 million, so 105 million people couldn't in 2026. That means that of the 36 million high school graduates from 2017 to 2026, only one million of them could paraphrase or make inferences from a multipage text?

I know the US educational system is a mess, but I find it hard to believe that it's quite that much of a mess. Can anyone point out flaws in the math?

lubujackson 34 minutes ago [-]
That assumes the shift was entirely due to high school students becoming adults. There are also people who haven't read much over those years and have had their skills declined to the point of failure. Or, also likely, sample size issues.
OkayPhysicist 33 minutes ago [-]
You're making the assumption that the change in absolute terms is entirely driven by deficient additions to the population. It's just as possible that some portion of the population lost their skill by allowing it to atrophy from underuse.
giraffe_lady 2 hours ago [-]
I don't think I learned this skill from the sat.
criddell 2 hours ago [-]
I think the point is that the design of the SAT influences what is taught in schools.

If the SAT stops testing the ability to deal with multi-paragraph text, then schools will spend less time teaching those skills.

Aurornis 34 minutes ago [-]
For better or worse, testing was used as an assortative matching between students and universities they applied for. Though far from perfect, a university that set their acceptance bar at a certain level could expect incoming students to at least be at or around that level.

The less rigorous the filtering, the more you have to accommodate the lower ends of the incoming students’ abilities. So as standardized testing is softened, so too is the curriculum that students are exposed to.

There is a movement against standardized testing that gained traction in the past decade, arguing that because it’s flawed and imperfect we should abandon it. The movement never had a good replacement for it, though, so the shift was toward looser standards and judging students based on vibes and non-academic measures. Many of the universities that went this direction are reversing course and adding standardized testing back now because the reality of higher education is that you need to filter incoming students by some academic measurements if you want to be able raise the bar for your curriculum.

The effects cascade everywhere. In a perfect utopia everyone would get individualized perfect tutoring and we wouldn’t have to worry about testing, but in the world we inhabit a lot of the education decisions and realities are downstream of what we can test for.

joh6nn 2 hours ago [-]
The implication is not that people learned this skill from the SAT, but rather that not requiring it to score well on the SAT further lowers the baseline.
apparent 1 hours ago [-]
Doing well on the SAT used to require some measure of reading stamina. It no longer does, so some students who would have been prompted to increase their stamina in order to do well on the SAT will no longer feel that pressure.
tsunamifury 1 hours ago [-]
Humans tend to reflexively shift their learning to their environment.

We often judge those changes but we are notoriously bad at consciously predicting the future our collective unconscious often does.

ramijames 9 minutes ago [-]
My kids are active, voracious readers. At least one book (500-700 pages) a week. It feels like one of the only things that I've really done right as a parent.
dash2 8 minutes ago [-]
How did you do it?
pastage 5 minutes ago [-]
Make it joyful

Read books yourself

Make book an important part of your life

Read to the kids

Teach them to read early

Little to no phone use early on

snarfy 21 minutes ago [-]
I read non-fiction all day long. I'm sure you do too. Even as a kid I was never really interested in fiction. I'd rather read the encyclopedia.
TrackerFF 3 hours ago [-]
I was somewhat surprised to find out that illiteracy does not mean that someone needs to be a total (or near) analphabet - but rather that it is a broad and wide spectrum. I always imagined that “teenagers can’t read” meant that they couldn’t read at all, but then I never met such a person.

Reading is definitely a skill that needs to be learned and maintained. Going from reading a couple of hundred words, to even a longer 30 - 60 min article can be tough if you’re out of shape. Same with writing.

It makes me wonder if literate people can regress to illiterate, for no other reason than lack of reading maintenance.

tolerance 43 minutes ago [-]
A good idea to consider might be what Hans Magnus Enzensberger referred to as "second-order illiteracy".

> [The second-order illiterate] has come a long way: his loss of memory causes him no suffering; his lack of will makes life easy for him; he values his inability to concentrate; he considers it an advantage that he neither knows nor understands what is happening to him. He is mobile. He is adaptive. He has a talent for getting things done. We need have no worries about him. It contributes to the second-order illiterate's sense of well-being that he has no idea that he is a second-order illiterate. He considers himself well-informed; he can decipher instructions on appliances and tools; he can decode pictograms and checks. And he moves within an environment hermetically sealed against anything that might infect his consciousness. That he might come to grief in this environment is unthinkable. After all, it produced and educated him in order to guarantee its undisturbed continuation.

lynndotpy 12 minutes ago [-]
I recently argued with someone in their 60s who argued, in total sincerity, that nobody should ever need to read or write more than 500 words at a time. I asked about Terms of Service agreements, hospital paperwork, etc, and she insisted that it was not a useful skill. I think she might qualify as illiterate.

(For reference, your comment and my reply combined make for about 180 words.)

nearbuy 2 hours ago [-]
The UNESCO/World Bank literacy rate is basically defined how you thought. But high income countries don't usually report this because literacy by this measure is nearly universal. So they often report at higher thresholds (e.g. how many people can read at a grade 9 level), and news headlines often don't make it clear that this is not the same as the UNESCO definition.
dspillett 1 hours ago [-]
> It makes me wonder if literate people can regress to illiterate,

Under normal circumstances for a healthy human, I'd say no, at least directly. Not a scientific analysis of course, but I don't feel reading ability in a language that you use regularly is going to degrade that significantly. A very similar problem might come about through a drop in attention span which is definitely an issue for many these days, but I wouldn't count this as a literacy problem: the written letters/words/sentences/… are not the issue and other things are going to be equally impacted.

For a second+ language, especially if you never got to a particularly fluent state, this is probably quite different - for anecdata I did pretty well at Spanish GCSE then never spoke a word the 32 years before starting to relearn last year. But again I would not really call this a general literacy problem.

One place where you do see literacy fall precipitously is due to mental degradation due to common complications of old age, if you have relatives with dementia you will have seen this first hand. While literacy is only part of a massive problem here, reading and writing abilities are things that fall away relatively quickly for many (presumably due to them being relatively complex operations, and needing conscious concentration rather than being autonomic life-preserving functions).

nozzlegear 55 minutes ago [-]
> I was somewhat surprised to find out that illiteracy does not mean that someone needs to be a total (or near) analphabet - but rather that it is a broad and wide spectrum. I always imagined that “teenagers can’t read” meant that they couldn’t read at all, but then I never met such a person.

Indeed, and this is the source of the discrepancy in the reddit-style gotcha that gets repeated about Americans being illiterate. It's not that they can't read, it's that illiteracy (as measured by whichever agency in the US does the measuring) means something more than just "can't read at all."

yomismoaqui 2 hours ago [-]
I think that literate people can recover from a period of not reading (books) at all.

I recently had more than a year of not reading any books that was interrupted when I found about The Culture series. I read Use of Weapons and had to read all novels from that universe. After that I tried to find some books similar to them, tried to read some recommended ones (didn't finish any of them) and stopped reading.

In my case reading books is a kind of fever that I get every year or so.

AlotOfReading 1 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately there really aren't any other books like the culture series. You might enjoy Banks' "The Algebraist" and the completely unrelated though similarly named "The Alchemist".
yomismoaqui 45 minutes ago [-]
As I like how Banks writes and they are not directly related to The Culture they won't have to meet the expectations of the others I tried.

Thanks, will read them.

AlotOfReading 39 minutes ago [-]
Only the first is written by Banks, to clear up any ambiguity. They're very different books, just similarly named.
2 hours ago [-]
pessimizer 1 hours ago [-]
> I was somewhat surprised to find out that illiteracy does not mean that someone needs to be a total (or near) analphabet - but rather that it is a broad and wide spectrum.

It's a very recent redefinition, pushed by people looking to make money from a panic. They're trying to make people who are simply incurious (through stupidity, fear, boredom or whatever) into illiterates. More people are literate than ever before because of the internet. Before the internet, there were an enormous number (up to a quarter of the US population) of actual illiterates.

The new definition of illiteracy is (manipulatively) somehow including people who wouldn't be able to understand something that is being read to them.

I suspect that a lot of middle-class people are illiteracy truthers, because they've never met someone who actually couldn't read. I'm from poor, black, uneducated, working people, and before the internet there were plenty who simply couldn't read. If you asked them to write the word "STOP" they would make a good attempt to copy what they remembered from a stop sign, and draw it like a picture. They're normal people, though, and if you didn't know them well, the strategies that they've developed over a lifetime would keep you from noticing.

It's going to be back again - technology has removed the need to read and write because of voice recognition and interfaces. We're calling it too early.

> It makes me wonder if literate people can regress to illiterate, for no other reason than lack of reading maintenance.

I think it's too easy to be exposed to words. To fall into illiteracy through atrophy would be like forgetting Spanish while living in Mexico. The good thing about comprehension-type skills is that they put you into a virtuous circle passively. Once your French gets to a certain point, it takes an effort not to understand French; and every piece of French you fail to fail to understand makes you better at understanding French. If you're in Paris, riding the bus, and somebody is babbling into a cellphone, you'll wish you didn't understand French.

English (like French) is just an absurdly hard language to read and write. Of course there are people who can't, at all. French, although absurd, is probably easier to read than English (though a bit harder to write.)

tolerance 13 minutes ago [-]
Long read. But this has been known for over 20 years.

> Reading has always been associated with education and more generally with urban social elites. Although contemporary commentators deplore the decline of “the reading habit” or “literary reading,” historically the era of mass reading, which lasted from the mid-nineteenth through the mid-twentieth century in northwestern Europe and North America, was the anomaly.

"Reading and the Reading Class in the Twenty-First Century"

https://sociology.northwestern.edu/documents/faculty-docs/fa...

quasiperfectus 2 hours ago [-]
> Gambling has become a more common leisure activity than reading a book

I feel like if it took me 20hr to place a bet I'm probably not doing much of that either.

Anecdotal, but my 7y/o loves reading. She's flying through series' and it's getting pricey. I guess she falls in the 16% of people who enjoy it.

sanmarzano 1 hours ago [-]
It does. People who bet on sports sink hundreds of hours into forums and consuming visual content. Placing a bet takes 30 seconds, deciding what to bet on takes people a very long time. As long as reading a book.
quasiperfectus 44 minutes ago [-]
I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of time people put into researching. A very small minority, sure, but most sports bettors look at the lines and pick.
sanmarzano 37 minutes ago [-]
Possibly. The only people I know that gamble are sports bets, and they consume sports at a near constant rate.
apparent 1 hours ago [-]
Same with my girls (parents of boys seem to mostly have a different experience). Hopefully your kid gets access to digital libraries like Epic or Sora at school. There are also public libraries with ebook lending that can make the habit cheaper.
DeluluDon 1 hours ago [-]
My mother taught me how to read, I'm male. Incidentally, I scored higher than my peers in reading.

I still read, but it has taken the form of social media which have no more length than a blurb.

apparent 2 hours ago [-]
This is not a fair comparison:

> Only 38 percent read a novel or short story... The proportion of Americans who read for pleasure on any given day fell from 28 percent in 2004 to 16 percent in 2023.... Gambling has become a more common leisure activity than reading a book: Last year, 57 percent of Americans placed a bet.

It takes much less time to place a bet than to read a novel/short story. Likewise, reading for pleasure "on any given day" is a totally different measure than "placed a bet last year".

saulpw 2 hours ago [-]
Yeah, at least it should be over the same time period!
lapcat 2 hours ago [-]
Your selective quote left off the part that made it a fairer comparison. "Only 38 read a novel or short story" was a follow-up to "fewer than half of all adults reported having read a book of any kind in 2022." That's a year-long stat.
apparent 1 hours ago [-]
Reading an entire book takes much more time than placing an online bet.
lapcat 1 hours ago [-]
> Reading an entire book takes much more time than placing an online bet.

Yes, but do you only do things for pleasure if they're done quickly? Is your sex always over in a minute?

Also, I was responding to this:

> Likewise, reading for pleasure "on any given day" is a totally different measure than "placed a bet last year".

Yes, reading for pleasure "on any given day" is a different measure than "placed a bet last year", but "read a book of any kind in 2022" is the same length of time, though not the exact same year.

ashleyn 2 hours ago [-]
I refuse to believe that the decline of our education system is some inevitable, intractable problem.
breezybottom 1 hours ago [-]
Decline since when? A few hundred years ago most people were illiterate farmers.
nozzlegear 48 minutes ago [-]
Within the last 30 years? Last 20? We had a high point, and we're not there any longer – certainly not in my state (Iowa).
bluGill 50 minutes ago [-]
Were they though? Or were they only illiterate because literacy was measured in Latin not their native language? We know that historically that did happen, and it is hard to figure out what was done.

Even today, most talking about literacy rates are using a very high level read skills to make things look bad, when most people can read just fine for the normal level things are written in. I'm near illiterate if you only test me on medical papers.

breezybottom 46 minutes ago [-]
Literacy doesn't mean your ability to speak, it means your ability to read/write. Formal schooling for the masses is a very recent invention.
bluGill 14 minutes ago [-]
It isn't hard to learn how to read at a basic level.
wing-_-nuts 42 minutes ago [-]
That merely shows that a very basic education is more widespread. One thing that's always struck me, listening to letters read aloud in history shows, is the eloquence and mastery of the language they possessed.

TLDR: fewer people may have been literate, but the ones who were, were damned good writers.

sdevonoes 3 hours ago [-]
For me, reading used to be a way to enjoy part of my free time.

Nowadays is still that but it’s also a way to relax. Even though I don’t have accounts in the main social media networks (instagram, fb, twitter, youtube, etc) I still consume them indirectly on a weekly basis (e.g., i like to watch videoclips in YT, a friend sends me a twitter link, etc). It makes me anxious. I’ve realised that consuming in tiny bits (short videos, ads, stories, tweets, private messages, even going to those stores where everything is under $5) doesn’t suit me well, therefore reading regular books for at least 1-2h per day (plus other activities like working out alone, or going for a walk to a park) is becoming essential for my wellbeing.

rvshchwl 36 minutes ago [-]
I realized this recently as well, on how much social media has started affected me. I've made some changes to how I use my phone now but haven't seen a lot of improvement overall, basically because I've found that there is "Social Media" everywhere I go. I removed all the Meta apps from my phone and found myself spending more time on LinkedIn. Removed that and I end up on Reddit. I do feel better about not being on FB and Instagram anymore though which I found were the biggest source of my wasted time. I'm not able to fully limit all the apps, and that may just come over time with better habits.

The positive upside to all of this has been that I've been reading more in general. Finished 2 books last month, and almost done with a 3rd one. Not having any of the main apps on my phone just has meant that I end up reaching for a book or something physical to occupy my time, which in general has been a better use of my time.

cphoover 3 hours ago [-]
I'm afraid I am addicted to short-form video and wish I could go back to spending more of my free-time reading books.
wing-_-nuts 46 minutes ago [-]
It's funny, I signed up for tiktok when I was curious about the hype, explored a bit for the science / history / educational content I normally watch on youtube and found there was almost nothing, and what little there was was of much lower quality.

I deleted my account after about 15m of looking, and hilariously enough, a tiktok researcher reached out, and actually paid me ~ $200 to understand why I bounced off the platform.

khutorni 2 hours ago [-]
I suggest blocking all platforms that provide short-form video and firmly deciding not to consume such content for a set period of time (e.g., 2 weeks). For me, this is the only way to stop once I fall back into the habit.

Doing this enabled me to spend more time developing and pursuing my own ideas, which is invigorating.

dana-s 1 hours ago [-]
Or even just setting up a timer, I've set up a 20 min timer for myself recently, once it's done I do stick to it, I did get to do some things I've been pushing away, I still get some value out of these but... I get a lot more by not spending an hour on them.
mathgeek 2 hours ago [-]
Have you also run into the attention deficit effect of all these short forms of media? Overriding my brain's desire to put a book down after a couple pages is certainly not my favorite pastime.
criddell 2 hours ago [-]
Part of that might be your book choice.

I found that when trying to rekindle my reading habit, book choice had a big effect. Some books are like vegetables you know you should eat but really don't want to and other books are junk food. Empty calories that you love.

Pick from the latter pile at first and rebuild the muscle.

trimbo 2 hours ago [-]
The Brick has been helping me with phone overuse. getbrick.com (I have no association with the company)

On your laptop, route those sites to localhost.

anthonypasq 25 minutes ago [-]
very cool, probably gonna get one, ty!
microtherion 2 hours ago [-]
“A Clockwork Orange” as “Old English” is an amusing anecdote, but it might be worth noting that the novel is written in deliberately nonstandard English mixing in Russian words, so it might be nontrivial to read for people lacking interpolation skills.

In the first paragraph, e.g., there is:

> There was me, that is Alex, and my three droogs, that is Pete, Georgie, and Dim. Dim being really dim, and we sat in the Korova Milkbar making up our rassoodocks what to do with the evening, a flip dark chill winter bastard though dry.

N1ckFG 7 minutes ago [-]
It's also New Wave science fiction, and once you get past the conlang and the genre conventions, it's still incredibly violent! Kubrick iirc even once said in an interview that he removed some book scenes from his (initially X-rated) film adaptation, because he thought the invented language helped make them less disturbing to read, but audiences watching them dramatized would just give up and walk out. Anyway I sure do see some of the trends described in the article with my younger students and relatives, but such a strange unforced error makes me suspicious of the strength of the research.
qingcharles 52 minutes ago [-]
Just wait till they open Trainspotting.
aboardRat4 2 hours ago [-]
>Americans also get much less of their news through reading than they once did. In 1975, about half of 20-somethings said they read the newspaper every day. Today less than 10 percent do.

Most of the news are not worth reading. I listen to news when eating, and I am very glad I don't have to waste my reading span on this crap.

bluGill 49 minutes ago [-]
I wish there was a local news paper around me. There are national news papers with a local edition, but they don't have local reporters digging into local stories and so are not worth reading.
wing-_-nuts 45 minutes ago [-]
You're not reading the right news sources then. I find reuters, the AP and such still worthwhile.
madhacker 11 minutes ago [-]
very long winded this article
ButlerianJihad 15 minutes ago [-]
The United States has made literacy into a Holy Grail of education, and our systems have reduced illiteracy levels to record lows. However, in the real world, there are so many basic jobs, unskilled labor jobs, that should not require literacy at all, and for thousands of years there were all kinds of workers who were never required to achieve literacy at all. So there may be a lot of wasted investment in education trying to make people literate when it's not actually required.

Even if the foregoing is completely false and abhorrent to you, we must also come to terms with a "new literacy" in terms of ideograms and emoji. I am learning how to type emoji, and replace many textual expressions with singular emoji and symbols. Computers and electronic devices, as well as our own garments, are frequently labeled with ideograms that transcend human language, but must be interpreted for proper use.

I have noticed some people around me who aren't really good at reading at all, and this is a real handicap to them when paperwork, and computer readouts, and just signs posted all over, are full of words, and our world surrounds us in words to read and comprehend, and if we can't read at lightning-speed levels, and comprehend what we read, we find ourselves at distinct evolutionary/legal/financial/social disadvantages.

So I contend that future literacy will increasingly involve non-English emoji and symbology, and that not every human in the world needs to be literate in a particular written language, and while a majority of society can afford such an education, nothing of value may be lost.

cphoover 3 hours ago [-]
I wonder if someone educated in this could provide the neurological benefits of reading, outside of communication. They are numerous, are they not? Memory, neuroplasticity, focus, stress relief—I'm sure there are many other benefits too.
ranprieur 43 minutes ago [-]
Reading is declining because of computers, which are a much more fragile and dependent technology than text on paper.
xmcp123 2 hours ago [-]
Even as the author points out people are reading more, he continues to conflate books with reading - and not just that but reading specifically physical books (referring to his stats around book ownership).

The reality is that before, you needed to read huge swaths of information to find/know the relevant information. Now you don’t.

The density of useful information I gather from places like Wikipedia, even long form articles is substantially higher than I got reading non-fiction.

I still read books sometimes. It’s a different experience. But it’s only a dumbing down of society, if the things you’re reading are dumb.

Diogenesian 1 hours ago [-]
> The reality is that before, you needed to read huge swaths of information to find/know the relevant information. Now you don’t.

> The density of useful information I gather from places like Wikipedia, even long form articles is substantially higher than I got reading non-fiction.

You're in good company. Sam Bankman-Freid:

  I would never read a book. I’m very skeptical of books. I don’t want to say no book is ever worth reading, but I actually do believe something pretty close to that. I think, if you wrote a book, you fucked up, and it should have been a six-paragraph blog post.
You do actually need to read huge swaths of information to understand the relevant information. A good nonfiction book isn't long because of low information density: it's because the ideas are so complicated that it takes an entire book to explain it. Your approach is emblematic of a modern trend where people know a bunch of smart factoids but have no broader wisdom or understanding.

Not reading books because of "information denisty" is a lazy rationalization for dumbing yourself down. Wikipedia is good as a quick reference if you already understand something, but a disaster for learning.

marcosdumay 10 minutes ago [-]
There are very few non-fiction books that actually need their space to communicate their idea, instead of doing it in a chapter and filling the rest of it to reach some word-count target.
xmcp123 50 minutes ago [-]
I do read huge swaths of information, just directly relevant to the questions that I have, and the things required to understand that information.

Don’t have to read a book on every US president to understand what happened during the Reagan administration. And if I’m primarily interested in the Cold War, I can focus on that subject and skip out on when Reagan was governor of California, or how he met his wife.

More than that I can get information from a variety of sources, including ones that disagree with each other and have different perspectives. That has absolutely enormous value when trying to comprehend something new…and isn’t often available in a single book.

You still can’t be lazy. Laziness is antithetical to truly acquiring knowledge. But it definitely can’t only come from a book.

breezybottom 1 hours ago [-]
I've read plenty of scientific articles that read like the author is trying to fulfill a word count. There's definitely something to be said for brevity.
jdw64 2 hours ago [-]
Books have their advantages, but I don't think you necessarily need to read books—in fact, I think books can sometimes be worse. One strength of books is that their structure, starting with the table of contents, trains you in logical composition.

But books also have drawbacks:

1.If there's incorrect information at the time of writing, it becomes fixed at that point.

2.The author's worldview can become overly authoritative, and the messiness of reality is smoothed over for the sake of a neat narrative.

3.Counterexamples and recent debates are often missing.

There are also bad papers that manipulate data to get results, and books are no different. I think books are not bad for introductory maps and mental training.

If you look at programming books from about 10 years ago, they're like historical relics—hard to apply today.

In a rapidly changing world, if you only read books, you'll easily fall behind. Information is pouring in, and books are static media, slow to adapt. Training yourself to read text is important, but it doesn't have to be through books.

Books help build a mental structure of tables of contents and conceptual sequences, but I question whether that structure can only be formed through books.

And realistically, there's a lot of bad content in books too. Self-help books are full of nonsense and scams that exploit people's desire for success. But they're venerated simply because they come in the form of a 'book.'

What we should venerate is not the 'form of a book,' but the 'way of reading that builds a mental framework.'

So I question whether reading only books is really the right approach. I think of this as 'form over substance.' The core is training logical thinking—that doesn't have to come in the form of a book.

I sometimes think it's worth recalling what Socrates said in Plato's Phaedrus: 'Writing is not a remedy for memory, but a means of making it external, leading to forgetfulness.

Once you write something down, you no longer try to remember it within yourself. You come to trust the external symbols.

Writing doesn't give people true wisdom—it only gives them the appearance of wisdom. What matters is not what's written in a book, but what knowledge you internalize. I don't understand the obsession with the form itself.

lanfeust6 2 hours ago [-]
I read more than ever, but Substack is taking a sizable share of the pie whereas lit and non-fiction is now my late evening. I don't do the audiobook thing, though I understand that has become increasingly popular yet not really given much credence.

Desire might be theoretically limitless, but time and attention is not. Time I spend reading is time I'm not consuming endless short-form videos. People have gotten hooked on phones and the medium dictates what they consume.

There could be boom and bust cycles for this. Trends lose lustre and people are always looking for ways to signal status/competence. It's probably why "booktok" is a thing.

Diogenesian 52 minutes ago [-]
[dead]
bell-cot 1 hours ago [-]
Whether or not people are reading long or complex works for pleasure - what does this trend do to hiring for jobs which require serious comprehension of long, complex documents?

Will we see in-person-only "interviews", where candidates drop their smart phones & glasses into a box, spend hours reading documents, then have to answer questions about 'em?

1 hours ago [-]
frwrfwrfeefwf 1 hours ago [-]
to put it politely it's demographic changes
sph 3 hours ago [-]
> Optimists once believed that universal literacy was inevitable. Now it seems that the age of reading might be a short anomaly in human history.

What dreadful hyperbole. If reading is in decline, it’s just that we are in a crisis of widespread ignorance and broken education system, but good luck navigating through life without knowing how to read.

The anomaly might in fact be that we are regressing in human general intelligence compared to the rest of history.

Diogenesian 58 minutes ago [-]
Not "the rest of history," but relative to the ~1800-2000 period of steadily increasing literacy and educational attainment.

The European Dark Ages after the fall of Western Rome was a real thing. Many people regressed to the Stone Age for hundreds of years, and we lost almost every written work from ancient Greece and Rome. That can absolutely happen with the US and EU by 2200, especially considering digital information is far more fragile over centuries than papyrus and parchment.

criddell 2 hours ago [-]
> good luck navigating through life without knowing how to read

Literacy isn't usually evaluated as a binary thing.

Here's how one organization ranks reading levels:

https://nces.ed.gov/naal/perf_levels.asp

I think the optimists in the article once believed proficiency was inevitable but maybe basic is the best they should hope for now.

gowld 48 minutes ago [-]
Written communication serves separable purposes:

* Replicating speech, Archiving speech, and separating the acts of speaking and listening from each other. There are alternatives to written format.

* Speech that can be edited easily, until it is perfected.

* Speech that be sped up, slowed down, and jumped around with random access and search.

* Silent speech.

These features can be achieved with alternative technologies.

Written communication also has drawbacks. It is a lossy compression of spoken speech.

expedition32 2 hours ago [-]
Oh well we had a good run of 5000 years! See you on the next planet.
dominotw 2 hours ago [-]
i got xelink ereader few months ago and i've been reading a ton more. i have all sorts of kindle but i stopped reading but xelink attached to my phone got me back.

I would love a phone where this is a standard feature. dont care about fancy cameras and stuff.

melvillain 56 minutes ago [-]
Are you reading this? Consider yourself a reader. I quit reading The Atlantic a decade ago due to their hot takes. Slate and Salon a decade before that. If you read Reddit and romance, you’re literate.

Jerry ”I read,” Elaine “Books, Jerry. Books.”

tangenter 2 hours ago [-]
I’ve flagged the article and I would suggest others do the same. The Atlantic never posts things that satisfy the hacker spirit in any way. It is almost always puffery and melodrama meant to attract clicks and views, but the subject matter itself is trite and not worth discussing on a hacker forum.
AnimalMuppet 36 minutes ago [-]
I would think that the decline of reading would be relevant to discuss on a hacker forum.
hsuduebc2 2 hours ago [-]
Interesting phenomens are often discussed here so I personally do not perceive it as offtopic. Yet as you said, I have the same feeling from this article. Click bait grievance posting.
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